Oh, and the 1:10 rule of thumb doesn't come from CrtH modifier being 2% and CrtD being 20%. It comes from the typical tac newbie asking questions in the academy: He would have crit chance in the high single digits or low teens, and severity already well above 100 based on specialization skill, acc, dhc, ap, and a mix of odd modifiers. It assumes he has no resources, but the right skill set for tac. While making no sense mathematically, this rule of thumb shows wisdom and intention to help by the person who came up with it, and not egoism and intention to deceive, like OP of this thread.:rolleyes:
A better way to help a newbie is to give him a rule that is mathematically sound and applies to wide variety of situations.
It's on a per weapon modifier basis. If you think the 1:10 comes from CrtD having an extra zero, that's 1:100 for you.:D
And it doesn't make a 1:5 rule for loc/exp. Exploiters having half the bonus that it's supposed to have merely makes it a bad console. The chumps who end up using [crtH] plus exploiters instead of [crtD] plus locators deserve the nerf they get.
/thread
The reason why I don't think newbies should be told the 1:10 rule is that it makes them misunderstand the math. It's not that the optimal ratio for weapon modifiers is 1:10 and the optimal ratio for spire consoles is 1:5. It's also not the case that exploiters have half the correct bonus. Specific rules that are mathematically sound are as follows:
Rule 1. When deciding between an additional [CrtH] modifier and an additional [CrtD] modifier, choose [CrtH] if your current crit severity is more than 10 times your current crit chance, and choose [CrtD] otherwise.
Rule 2. When deciding between an additional vulnerability locator console and an additional vulnerability exploiter console, choose the locator if your current crit severity is more than 5 times your current crit chance, and choose the exploiter otherwise.
Notice that I have not mentioned an optimal ratio in the above two rules. That's because there isn't a target ratio to achieve. Rule 1 applies only to the situation when you are choosing an additional weapon modifier, and Rule 2 applies only to the situation when you choosing an additional spire console. A more general rule that applies to a wider variety of situations is as follows:
Rule 3. If you are changing crit chance and crit severity only while keeping all other factors the same, then to maximize expected damage, maximize the product of your total crit chance and total crit severity.
And that is the rule that I think should be told to newbies, if they must have a rule instead of following a calculator or spreadsheet.
What's with that 20% chance? Good luck getting that high chance if you're not a Romulan with a whole bunch of superior operatives. Sure, you hear some non-romulans reaching it these days by filling their boat with every universal console under the sun, but that's after a full set of Locators...
You're exaggerating a bit. As a Fed Engineer, I get 26.4% CrtH on my Mobius (with 3x SRO boffs and 3/9 in EWS). So, without the 4x VLs, that would actually, LOL, be *exactly* 20% CrtH.
Also, this is the 4th time I've seen you call the OP 'deceptive' (or that ppl are 'lying'). That seems quite unnecessary, as there are currently several CrtH/CrtD threads going on now, and I'm pretty sure peeps, including you, are all just earnestly trying to figure things out. And rylanadionysis, of all ppl, doesn't lie.
And what's this "wrong" value you're referring to? Values used are the official ones given by Cryptic. Many have tried doing trial runs, but weapon hits in game vary too widely, deviation from each trial run way too large, not to mention visible and hidden conditions to skew the results. They couldn't get a statistically significant result from any realistic number of trial runs, and the source code just isn't available for us to just check. So what Cryptic says, goes. If you're seeing these and coming up with conspiracy theories, take it up with them.;)
Besides, it's not as if any of the deceptive posts by OP took acc into account at all. If anything, it's less accurate than the calculator, to say nothing of the starting values.:rolleyes:
Well i can understand where the OP is coming from. We're typically at close to the 100% crit severity range as shown under ship/attack. And if all crit hit and crit sev was listed under that then he'd more or less be correct. But as we have crit hit and crit sev not shown under ship/attack i can't agree with his first post. As regards his last post with the insane crit hit and low crit severity to prove his theory i did the same thing when i did mine to disprove it. But i also included the stuff not shown under ship/attack and i included acc overflow.
As regards acc overflow. The devs provided the spreadsheet to figure this out quite a while ago. The problem was in interpretation. I have the spreadsheet and made my own calculator and testing showed inaccuracies. Someone else pointed out that i was calculating it wrong. I then redid my calculations and they are now correct.
Basically we have a 100% chance to hit. The 95% chance listed under ship/attack/accuracy is old and incorrect and the tooltip has never been changed.
To determine acc overflow you must determine your hit chance. To determine hit chance you need to get the difference of acc/def.
Note the calculator you linked is using the following.
acc-def to determine acc overflow and bypasses the to hit portion.
So that calculator would have this for it's results
40%*.125=5% crit hit
40%*.5=20% crit sev
Which means for this example it's off by +1.43% crit hit and +5.71% crit severity
This was extensively tested on tribble when i thought energy weapon spec was broken for Fire at Will. With others helping to test we found out that it was acc overflow that was not working for Fire at Will. This is also where i was pointed to the correct way to calculate acc overflow. After extensive testing we found that acc overflow worked exactly as the forumlas i provided above for autofiring and that acc overflow was not working for FAW. We tested this to death and we're 100% positive of our results.
A better way to help a newbie is to give him a rule that is mathematically sound and applies to wide variety of situations.
The reason why I don't think newbies should be told the 1:10 rule is that it makes them misunderstand the math. It's not that the optimal ratio for weapon modifiers is 1:10 and the optimal ratio for spire consoles is 1:5. It's also not the case that exploiters have half the correct bonus. Specific rules that are mathematically sound are as follows:
Rule 1. When deciding between an additional [CrtH] modifier and an additional [CrtD] modifier, choose [CrtH] if your current crit severity is more than 10 times your current crit chance, and choose [CrtD] otherwise.
Rule 2. When deciding between an additional vulnerability locator console and an additional vulnerability exploiter console, choose the locator if your current crit severity is more than 5 times your current crit chance, and choose the exploiter otherwise.
Notice that I have not mentioned an optimal ratio in the above two rules. That's because there isn't a target ratio to achieve. Rule 1 applies only to the situation when you are choosing an additional weapon modifier, and Rule 2 applies only to the situation when you choosing an additional spire console. A more general rule that applies to a wider variety of situations is as follows:
Rule 3. If you are changing crit chance and crit severity only while keeping all other factors the same, then to maximize expected damage, maximize the product of your total crit chance and total crit severity.
And that is the rule that I think should be told to newbies, if they must have a rule instead of following a calculator or spreadsheet.
That stuff is how newbies end up choosing [CrtH] plus exploiters and nerfing themselves, when they should have chosen [CrtD] plus locators. You're trying to make rules for something that can't be simplified into "rules," while maintain accuracy. It ends up being a wall of text that leads to the wrong conclusion for those who don't already understand the matter.
The beauty of 1:10 rule of thumb is it's simple, yet on mark for the target audience. It leads to the right conclusion for people it's targeted to help. Process don't matter.
That stuff is how newbies end up choosing [CrtH] plus exploiters and nerfing themselves, when they should have chosen [CrtD] plus locators. You're trying to make rules for something that can't be simplified into "rules," while maintain accuracy. It ends up being a wall of text that leads to the wrong conclusion for those who don't already understand the matter.
The beauty of 1:10 rule of thumb is it's simple, yet on mark for the target audience. It leads to the right conclusion for people it's targeted to help. Process don't matter.
Yes, it's true that actual combat in game is more complicated than a simple mathematical analysis can account for. In that case, how is the 1:10 rule any better?
You are assuming a specific set of circumstances that you think is typical. The rule I gave applies to a wide variety of builds. What is your objection? Is it that you think the rule I gave is too complicated? I don't see how it is any easier to divide crit chance by crit severity than it is to multiply crit chance by crit severity.
Why do ppl keep insisting on a 1:10 rule of thumb?! As if it were at all feasible to get 30%/300% CrtH/CrtD.
And what if ppl only have 10% CrtH? Would someone seriously suggest they only get 100 CrtD for 'optimum'?!
From all I've seen so far, 1:5 seems far more reasonable, and actually doable; like 25/125; or 30/150, etc.
As far as I can tell, some people insist on the 1:10 rule because they heard it from someone long ago and don't know enough math to do the work themselves or follow the mathematical discussions in these forums.
As far as I can tell, some people insist on the 1:10 rule because they heard it from someone long ago and don't know enough math to do the work themselves or follow the mathematical discussions in these forums.
Pretty much.
1:10 weapon mods
1:5 consoles
1:2.5 boffs
All else being equal it still would average out to about 1:5 using that gimped math, since those three pools each give you about the same outcome individually (about 6-8 critH and/or 25-60critD)
What it really boils down to is that "all of one type" has been proven a fallacy and we should be mixing locators/exploiters to achieve optimum. Only in rare cases would this not prove true.
Its kind of funny because I remember us all saying (myself included) at the start that a 3/2 split was probably going to be the best outcome, and thus far in all of these recent calculations, it has been exactly that, either 3L2E or 3E2L. Maybe we should stick to gut instinct more often instead of seeing 1.6 vs .8 and assuming.
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
Why do ppl keep insisting on a 1:10 rule of thumb?! As if it were at all feasible to get 30%/300% CrtH/CrtD.
And what if ppl only have 10% CrtH? Would someone seriously suggest they only get 100 CrtD for 'optimum'?!
From all I've seen so far, 1:5 seems far more reasonable, and actually doable; like 25/125; or 30/150, etc.
Read my previous post. The typical newbie who needs to ask, will have the ~10% chance you mentioned, and at the same time the ~100% severity. That's why it matches. You call it coincidence, I call it wisdom and foresight on the part of the person who came up with that rule of thumb. He gave the right answer to the right person.
Arbitrary ratios Crypic assigned to loc/exp has nothing to do with the rule of thumb. It has to do with newbies automatically ending up with ~10% or less chance and ~100% or greater severity due to high severity base and low chance base.
Oh wow, seriously? That's what I call lying by math. The calculations are right, but since the starting values are wrong, the result is wrong.:rolleyes:
What's with that low 80% severity? With an absolute base of 50%? (The real base in game is higher than that, btw) How often do you hear people having such low severity? News for you, weapon specialization skills add bigger portion severity than chance, and acc overflow adds 1% severity per point. You'll far overshoot that based on skills alone in a ship with no consoles using white non-ap non-dhc weapons that has no modifiers.
What's with that 20% chance? Good luck getting that high chance if you're not a Romulan with a whole bunch of superior operatives. Sure, you hear some non-romulans reaching it these days by filling their boat with every universal console under the sun, but that's after a full set of Locators...
Oh, and the 1:10 rule of thumb doesn't come from CrtH modifier being 2% and CrtD being 20%. It comes from the typical tac newbie asking questions in the academy: He would have crit chance in the high single digits or low teens, and severity already well above 100 based on specialization skill, acc, dhc, ap, and a mix of odd modifiers. It assumes he has no resources, but the right skill set for tac. While making no sense mathematically, this rule of thumb shows wisdom and intention to help by the person who came up with it, and not egoism and intention to deceive, like OP of this thread.:rolleyes:
It's on a per weapon modifier basis. If you think the 1:10 comes from CrtD having an extra zero, that's 1:100 for you.:D
And it doesn't make a 1:5 rule for loc/exp. Exploiters having half the bonus that it's supposed to have merely makes it a bad console. The chumps who end up using [crtH] plus exploiters instead of [crtD] plus locators deserve the nerf they get.
Here: http://comatoes.github.io/sto-crit-calc/
This is a solid calculator, and illustrates the issue nicely. Look through the options on left hand side. It applies whether you're in the masses or the extreme minority who has a full set of superior operatives. Unlike this thread, the calculator does not deceive, whoever you may be.;)
Read my previous post. The typical newbie who needs to ask, will have the ~10% chance you mentioned, and at the same time the ~100% severity. That's why it matches. You call it coincidence, I call it wisdom and foresight on the part of the person who came up with that rule of thumb. He gave the right answer to the right person.
Noblet its easy to get to 20+ critH and still be under 100 critD.
Just stack five romulan SROs and some crit hit universal consoles (assim, 0point, etc) with the tier 2 romulan crit passive and youll see a massive crit with very low critD. (on a tac romulan cappy with operative that would come out to 23 percent crit with a severity of only 92)
In fact boffs are usually the first thing the people get, and with their 1:2.5 ratio you will easily see how this occurs.
I dont know why you insist so much on arguing with me, but I am right, and you know I am.
The above captain is going to need either 4E/1L or 3E/2L to hit the sweet spot. In either case, 5 locators would NOT be his optimal DPS.
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
Why do ppl keep insisting on a 1:10 rule of thumb?! As if it were at all feasible to get 30%/300% CrtH/CrtD.
And what if ppl only have 10% CrtH? Would someone seriously suggest they only get 100 CrtD for 'optimum'?!
From all I've seen so far, 1:5 seems far more reasonable, and actually doable; like 25/125; or 30/150, etc.
1:10 is the Weapon Mod ratio.
1:5 is the Advanced Tactical Vulnerability Console ratio.
Funny, eh?
Then again, you start off with a 1:20 ratio.
Yes, I'm babbling about the inconsistency of ratios here too - even though I created a thread specifically to babble about it. :P
I really wish I could find the formula thissler did - was a damn nifty formula. But either the thread I saw it in got nuked or I imagined the whole thing...
Read my previous post. The typical newbie who needs to ask, will have the ~10% chance you mentioned, and at the same time the ~100% severity. That's why it matches. You call it coincidence, I call it wisdom and foresight on the part of the person who came up with that rule of thumb. He gave the right answer to the right person.
It is better foresight and wisdom to give him a rule that doesn't depend on guessing his crit chance and crit severity and still works when he acquires better equipment.
Incidentally, I have read your posts across several threads and replied to several of them. You seem to have some unshakeable belief in this 1:10 rule, and no amount of mathematical argument can convince you otherwise.
It is better foresight and wisdom to give him a rule that doesn't depend on guessing his crit chance and crit severity and still works when he acquires better equipment.
Incidentally, I have read your posts across several threads and replied to several of them. You seem to have some unshakeable belief in this 1:10 rule, and no amount of mathematical argument can convince you otherwise.
Actually, whilst I respect some people's intention to come up with a simple 'One Rule To Fit Them All,' I rather just hear about the real deal. Because guessing is something I can already do on my own: it's the forum I read to learn what it's really all about.
So, I have full confidence in you math ppl; and sooner or later you'll find a definitive mixture, and someone will write a calculater for it; and it will be all good (and better than a simple, but not so accurate, 1:10 rule of thumb, is the point).
Noblet its easy to get to 20+ critH and still be under 100 critD.
Just stack five romulan SROs and some crit hit universal consoles (assim, 0point, etc) with the tier 2 romulan crit passive and youll see a massive crit with very low critD. (on a tac romulan cappy with operative that would come out to 23 percent crit with a severity of only 92)
In fact boffs are usually the first thing the people get, and with their 1:2.5 ratio you will easily see how this occurs.
I dont know why you insist so much on arguing with me, but I am right, and you know I am.
The above captain is going to need either 4E/1L or 3E/2L to hit the sweet spot. In either case, 5 locators would NOT be his optimal DPS.
Reread my post. I specifically addressed the issue of min/maxer with a full set of SROs and every universal console in game available. These people don't need to ask you. Why don't you tell the nonrommies how easy it is to reach 20% chance while somehow below 100% severity?
Oh wow, seriously? That's what I call lying by math. The calculations are right, but since the starting values are wrong, the result is wrong.:rolleyes:
What's with that low 80% severity? With an absolute base of 50%? (The real base in game is higher than that, btw) How often do you hear people having such low severity? News for you, weapon specialization skills add bigger portion severity than chance, and acc overflow adds 1% severity per point. You'll far overshoot that based on skills alone in a ship with no consoles using white non-ap non-dhc weapons that has no modifiers.
What's with that 20% chance? Good luck getting that high chance if you're not a Romulan with a whole bunch of superior operatives. Sure, you hear some non-romulans reaching it these days by filling their boat with every universal console under the sun, but that's after a full set of Locators...
Oh, and the 1:10 rule of thumb doesn't come from CrtH modifier being 2% and CrtD being 20%. It comes from the typical tac newbie asking questions in the academy: He would have crit chance in the high single digits or low teens, and severity already well above 100 based on specialization skill, acc, dhc, ap, and a mix of odd modifiers. It assumes he has no resources, but the right skill set for tac. While making no sense mathematically, this rule of thumb shows wisdom and intention to help by the person who came up with it, and not egoism and intention to deceive, like OP of this thread.:rolleyes:
It's on a per weapon modifier basis. If you think the 1:10 comes from CrtD having an extra zero, that's 1:100 for you.:D
And it doesn't make a 1:5 rule for loc/exp. Exploiters having half the bonus that it's supposed to have merely makes it a bad console. The chumps who end up using [crtH] plus exploiters instead of [crtD] plus locators deserve the nerf they get.
Here: http://comatoes.github.io/sto-crit-calc/
This is a solid calculator, and illustrates the issue nicely. Look through the options on left hand side. It applies whether you're in the masses or the extreme minority who has a full set of superior operatives. Unlike this thread, the calculator does not deceive, whoever you may be.;)
Actually, whilst I respect some people's intention to come up with a simple 'One Rule To Fit Them All,' I rather just hear about the real deal. Because guessing is something I can already do on my own: it's the forum I read to learn what it's really all about.
So, I have full confidence in you math ppl; and sooner or later you'll find a definitive mixture, and someone will write a calculater for it; and it will be all good (and better than a simple, but not so accurate, 1:10 rule of thumb, is the point).
For the newbies that the 1:10 rule of thumb targets, it leads to the right conclusion until they're proficient enough to do their own calculations, while these other walls of text rules lead them to the wrong conclusion. For its target audience, it's by far the best among all the flawed concepts out there.
Otherwise, there's the calculator, that's based on more walls of text than you can ever bother typing up.
Reread my post. I specifically addressed the issue of min/maxer with a full set of SROs and every universal console in game available. These people don't need to ask you. Why don't you tell the nonrommies how easy it is to reach 20% chance while somehow below 100% severity?
Challenge accepted, Noblet.
Federation captain
2.5/50
Fleet Avenger with universal slotted tactical
3 embassy SROs
8.5/65
Rom rep tier2 crit
11.5/65
EWS 9 points
13.5/90
Assim/zero/tachy
16.5/105
So without any weapon mods whatsoever we are at 16.5/105
No matter which way you go, which mods or which consoles, that captain is going over 20 percent crit chance. Youre going to have to deal with the 1:5 sooner or later. What is your next move Noblet, because I am enjoying our game. I already know the best configuration, lets see how well your "calculator" plays out this match.
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
Actually, whilst I respect some people's intention to come up with a simple 'One Rule To Fit Them All,' I rather just hear about the real deal. Because guessing is something I can already do on my own: it's the forum I read to learn what it's really all about.
So, I have full confidence in you math ppl; and sooner or later you'll find a definitive mixture, and someone will write a calculater for it; and it will be all good (and better than a simple, but not so accurate, 1:10 rule of thumb, is the point).
There is a calculator. It was mentioned by several people already.
2.5/50
Fleet Avenger with universal slotted tactical
3 embassy SROs
8.5/65
Rom rep tier2 crit
11.5/65
EWS 9 points
13.5/90
Assim/zero/tachy
16.5/105
So without any weapon mods whatsoever we are at 16.5/105
No matter which way you go, which mods or which consoles, that captain is going over 20 percent crit chance. Youre going to have to deal with the 1:5 sooner or later. What is your next move Noblet, because I am enjoying our game. I already know the best configuration, lets see how well your "calculator" plays out this match.
See? There we go. Thanks for the hard work.:D
You just chose a ship with 5 tac consoles, stacked on 3 Superior operatives from the embassy (all tac too, ship's universal boff locked into tac), used reputation power, stacked in all the universal consoles, including a lobi store one that cost 200 lobis. Of course you'd avoid weapons, you won't want that ap or dhc bonus there... After all that, it's still only up to 16.5%. Oh and you couldn't help but have severity already above 100, much less 80, despite how hard you tried to avoid it.:D
You can go ahead and tell a newbie to get all that just for the privilege of being able to fit exploiters, or...
I honestly haven't bothered to check the accuracy overflow of his calculator. What is his mistake?
It calculates based on Acc vs. Def Difference instead of Accuracy Overflow. It ignores the actual %ToHit Calculation to find the amount over 100%...the overflow. It's just Acc - Def instead.
You just chose a ship with 5 tac consoles, stacked on 3 Superior operatives from the embassy (all tac too, ship's universal boff locked into tac), used reputation power, stacked in all the universal consoles, including a lobi store one that cost 200 lobis. Of course you'd avoid weapons, you won't want that ap or dhc bonus there... After all that, it's still only up to 16.5%. Oh and you couldn't help but have severity already above 100, much less 80, despite how hard you tried to avoid it.:D
You can go ahead and tell a newbie to get all that just for the privilege of being able to fit exploiters, or...
im not even trying, thats the thing, i could push it over 20 at the expense of two more console slots if i really wanted to.
The point is that feds and kdf run into the same imbalance as a rom does, it is not just high crit roms.
you seem to be obsessed with trying to prove me wrong, so I will again issue the challenge, make that ship I just described do its optimal DPS.
Oh and the avenger only has 4 tac consoles, smartass.
I hope you realize my ultimate goal, to shut you up and actually teach you how to build a ship properly. Its a trap, you should probably stop responding to me or you might actually learn something.
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
im not even trying, thats the thing, i could push it over 20 at the expense of two more console slots if i really wanted to.
The point is that feds and kdf run into the same imbalance as a rom does, it is not just high crit roms.
you seem to be obsessed with trying to prove me wrong, so I will again issue the challenge, make that ship I just described do its optimal DPS.
Oh and the avenger only has 4 tac consoles, smartass.
I hope you realize my ultimate goal, to shut you up and actually teach you how to build a ship properly. Its a trap, you should probably stop responding to me or you might actually learn something.
Lol, how many 200 lobi console are you going to use this time? How many embassy romulan tac boffs? How many people are you going to tell to change ships so they support 3 tac boffs and 5 tac consoles?
Your problem is egoism. You were trying to "prove ppl wrong" instead of helping ppl out.:rolleyes:
It calculates based on Acc vs. Def Difference instead of Accuracy Overflow. It ignores the actual %ToHit Calculation to find the amount over 100%...the overflow. It's just Acc - Def instead.
OK, I did some cursory checking, and he does appear to use the wrong formula.
Just remember to change the acc overflow to use the correct formula by choosing 1 in cell G68. It's set to the incorrect formula by default. Best calculator i've seen yet.
Just remember to change the acc overflow to use the correct formula by choosing 1 in cell G68. It's set to the incorrect formula by default. Best calculator i've seen yet.
Maybe, it's because I'm using LibreOffice instead of Excel, but I'm seeing weird behavior with that spreadsheet. For example, cell F75 refers to $B$69, but I don't see column B on the first tab.
A and B columns are hidden. Above c1 enter b1 and hit return. Hit cells/format/hide&unhide/unhide columns. repeat to show A column. Not sure how libraoffice unhides columns though. I don't like the gain vs reference column and i don't like the difference column. I've modded mine to instead show gain vs currently equipped weapon. It just makes more sense to me. But the rankings do stay the same.
A and B columns are hidden. Above c1 enter b1 and hit return. Hit cells/format/hide&unhide/unhide columns. repeat to show A column. Not sure how libraoffice unhides columns though. I don't like the gain vs reference and i don't like the difference column. I've modded mine to instead show gain vs currently equipped weapon. It just makes more sense to me. But the rankings do stay the same.
Thanks. I was able to unhide the columns. The way he calculates some things seems weird to me, but not necessarily wrong. For example, he adds 30% accuracy from [Acc]x3 and then subtracts it again later.
Also note selecting F63 Ar"kif appears to give the extra plasma damage to all weapons. This includes the antiproton weapons. The antiprotons should only get the extra crit and crit sev. So don't use it to compare vs antiprotons.
Comments
A better way to help a newbie is to give him a rule that is mathematically sound and applies to wide variety of situations.
The reason why I don't think newbies should be told the 1:10 rule is that it makes them misunderstand the math. It's not that the optimal ratio for weapon modifiers is 1:10 and the optimal ratio for spire consoles is 1:5. It's also not the case that exploiters have half the correct bonus. Specific rules that are mathematically sound are as follows:
Rule 1. When deciding between an additional [CrtH] modifier and an additional [CrtD] modifier, choose [CrtH] if your current crit severity is more than 10 times your current crit chance, and choose [CrtD] otherwise.
Rule 2. When deciding between an additional vulnerability locator console and an additional vulnerability exploiter console, choose the locator if your current crit severity is more than 5 times your current crit chance, and choose the exploiter otherwise.
Notice that I have not mentioned an optimal ratio in the above two rules. That's because there isn't a target ratio to achieve. Rule 1 applies only to the situation when you are choosing an additional weapon modifier, and Rule 2 applies only to the situation when you choosing an additional spire console. A more general rule that applies to a wider variety of situations is as follows:
Rule 3. If you are changing crit chance and crit severity only while keeping all other factors the same, then to maximize expected damage, maximize the product of your total crit chance and total crit severity.
And that is the rule that I think should be told to newbies, if they must have a rule instead of following a calculator or spreadsheet.
You're exaggerating a bit. As a Fed Engineer, I get 26.4% CrtH on my Mobius (with 3x SRO boffs and 3/9 in EWS). So, without the 4x VLs, that would actually, LOL, be *exactly* 20% CrtH.
Also, this is the 4th time I've seen you call the OP 'deceptive' (or that ppl are 'lying'). That seems quite unnecessary, as there are currently several CrtH/CrtD threads going on now, and I'm pretty sure peeps, including you, are all just earnestly trying to figure things out. And rylanadionysis, of all ppl, doesn't lie.
Well i can understand where the OP is coming from. We're typically at close to the 100% crit severity range as shown under ship/attack. And if all crit hit and crit sev was listed under that then he'd more or less be correct. But as we have crit hit and crit sev not shown under ship/attack i can't agree with his first post. As regards his last post with the insane crit hit and low crit severity to prove his theory i did the same thing when i did mine to disprove it. But i also included the stuff not shown under ship/attack and i included acc overflow.
As regards acc overflow. The devs provided the spreadsheet to figure this out quite a while ago. The problem was in interpretation. I have the spreadsheet and made my own calculator and testing showed inaccuracies. Someone else pointed out that i was calculating it wrong. I then redid my calculations and they are now correct.
Basically we have a 100% chance to hit. The 95% chance listed under ship/attack/accuracy is old and incorrect and the tooltip has never been changed.
To determine acc overflow you must determine your hit chance. To determine hit chance you need to get the difference of acc/def.
acc=your accuracy
def=opponents defense
acc-def=diff
=IF(diff<0,(1/(1-diff)),IF(diff>0,(2-(1/(1+diff))),1))
So it would look like this.
acc=25%
def=-15%
25%- -15%=40%
=IF(40%<0,(1/(1-40%)),IF(40%>0,(2-(1/(1+40%))),1))=128.57% to hit
acc overflow is to hit above 100%
=IF(diff>0,((to hit%-1)*.125))=additional crit hit%
=IF(diff>0,((to hit%-1)*.5))=additional crit sev%
So it looks like this.
=IF(40>0,((128.57%-1)*.125))=3.57% additional crit hit%
=IF(40>0,((128.57%-1)*.5))=14.29% additional crit sev%
Note the calculator you linked is using the following.
acc-def to determine acc overflow and bypasses the to hit portion.
So that calculator would have this for it's results
40%*.125=5% crit hit
40%*.5=20% crit sev
Which means for this example it's off by +1.43% crit hit and +5.71% crit severity
This was extensively tested on tribble when i thought energy weapon spec was broken for Fire at Will. With others helping to test we found out that it was acc overflow that was not working for Fire at Will. This is also where i was pointed to the correct way to calculate acc overflow. After extensive testing we found that acc overflow worked exactly as the forumlas i provided above for autofiring and that acc overflow was not working for FAW. We tested this to death and we're 100% positive of our results.
That stuff is how newbies end up choosing [CrtH] plus exploiters and nerfing themselves, when they should have chosen [CrtD] plus locators. You're trying to make rules for something that can't be simplified into "rules," while maintain accuracy. It ends up being a wall of text that leads to the wrong conclusion for those who don't already understand the matter.
The beauty of 1:10 rule of thumb is it's simple, yet on mark for the target audience. It leads to the right conclusion for people it's targeted to help. Process don't matter.
Otherwise, just use the calculator.
http://comatoes.github.io/sto-crit-calc/
And what if ppl only have 10% CrtH? Would someone seriously suggest they only get 100 CrtD for 'optimum'?!
From all I've seen so far, 1:5 seems far more reasonable, and actually doable; like 25/125; or 30/150, etc.
Yes, it's true that actual combat in game is more complicated than a simple mathematical analysis can account for. In that case, how is the 1:10 rule any better?
You are assuming a specific set of circumstances that you think is typical. The rule I gave applies to a wide variety of builds. What is your objection? Is it that you think the rule I gave is too complicated? I don't see how it is any easier to divide crit chance by crit severity than it is to multiply crit chance by crit severity.
As far as I can tell, some people insist on the 1:10 rule because they heard it from someone long ago and don't know enough math to do the work themselves or follow the mathematical discussions in these forums.
Pretty much.
1:10 weapon mods
1:5 consoles
1:2.5 boffs
All else being equal it still would average out to about 1:5 using that gimped math, since those three pools each give you about the same outcome individually (about 6-8 critH and/or 25-60critD)
What it really boils down to is that "all of one type" has been proven a fallacy and we should be mixing locators/exploiters to achieve optimum. Only in rare cases would this not prove true.
Its kind of funny because I remember us all saying (myself included) at the start that a 3/2 split was probably going to be the best outcome, and thus far in all of these recent calculations, it has been exactly that, either 3L2E or 3E2L. Maybe we should stick to gut instinct more often instead of seeing 1.6 vs .8 and assuming.
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
Read my previous post. The typical newbie who needs to ask, will have the ~10% chance you mentioned, and at the same time the ~100% severity. That's why it matches. You call it coincidence, I call it wisdom and foresight on the part of the person who came up with that rule of thumb. He gave the right answer to the right person.
Arbitrary ratios Crypic assigned to loc/exp has nothing to do with the rule of thumb. It has to do with newbies automatically ending up with ~10% or less chance and ~100% or greater severity due to high severity base and low chance base.
If you're not that newbie who needs to ask, don't ask, use the calculator.
http://comatoes.github.io/sto-crit-calc/
If you're capable of doing your own calculations properly, you won't need to ask about the fallacy of vulnerability exploiters.
Noblet its easy to get to 20+ critH and still be under 100 critD.
Just stack five romulan SROs and some crit hit universal consoles (assim, 0point, etc) with the tier 2 romulan crit passive and youll see a massive crit with very low critD. (on a tac romulan cappy with operative that would come out to 23 percent crit with a severity of only 92)
In fact boffs are usually the first thing the people get, and with their 1:2.5 ratio you will easily see how this occurs.
I dont know why you insist so much on arguing with me, but I am right, and you know I am.
The above captain is going to need either 4E/1L or 3E/2L to hit the sweet spot. In either case, 5 locators would NOT be his optimal DPS.
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
1:10 is the Weapon Mod ratio.
1:5 is the Advanced Tactical Vulnerability Console ratio.
Funny, eh?
Then again, you start off with a 1:20 ratio.
Yes, I'm babbling about the inconsistency of ratios here too - even though I created a thread specifically to babble about it. :P
I really wish I could find the formula thissler did - was a damn nifty formula. But either the thread I saw it in got nuked or I imagined the whole thing...
It is better foresight and wisdom to give him a rule that doesn't depend on guessing his crit chance and crit severity and still works when he acquires better equipment.
Incidentally, I have read your posts across several threads and replied to several of them. You seem to have some unshakeable belief in this 1:10 rule, and no amount of mathematical argument can convince you otherwise.
Actually, whilst I respect some people's intention to come up with a simple 'One Rule To Fit Them All,' I rather just hear about the real deal. Because guessing is something I can already do on my own: it's the forum I read to learn what it's really all about.
So, I have full confidence in you math ppl; and sooner or later you'll find a definitive mixture, and someone will write a calculater for it; and it will be all good (and better than a simple, but not so accurate, 1:10 rule of thumb, is the point).
Reread my post. I specifically addressed the issue of min/maxer with a full set of SROs and every universal console in game available. These people don't need to ask you. Why don't you tell the nonrommies how easy it is to reach 20% chance while somehow below 100% severity?
Anyway, I bolded it for you.
So don't try to set rules. See for yourself:
http://comatoes.github.io/sto-crit-calc/
For the newbies that the 1:10 rule of thumb targets, it leads to the right conclusion until they're proficient enough to do their own calculations, while these other walls of text rules lead them to the wrong conclusion. For its target audience, it's by far the best among all the flawed concepts out there.
Otherwise, there's the calculator, that's based on more walls of text than you can ever bother typing up.
Challenge accepted, Noblet.
Federation captain
2.5/50
Fleet Avenger with universal slotted tactical
3 embassy SROs
8.5/65
Rom rep tier2 crit
11.5/65
EWS 9 points
13.5/90
Assim/zero/tachy
16.5/105
So without any weapon mods whatsoever we are at 16.5/105
No matter which way you go, which mods or which consoles, that captain is going over 20 percent crit chance. Youre going to have to deal with the 1:5 sooner or later. What is your next move Noblet, because I am enjoying our game. I already know the best configuration, lets see how well your "calculator" plays out this match.
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
There is a calculator. It was mentioned by several people already.
http://comatoes.github.io/sto-crit-calc/
The math has been explained in several threads. The latest one, by cerealplayer, is here:
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1034191
Here is the original thread by the person who wrote the calculator:
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=926211
He originally thought that the optimal ratio was 1:10, but then rewrote the calculator based on feedback from me and several others.
See? There we go. Thanks for the hard work.:D
You just chose a ship with 5 tac consoles, stacked on 3 Superior operatives from the embassy (all tac too, ship's universal boff locked into tac), used reputation power, stacked in all the universal consoles, including a lobi store one that cost 200 lobis. Of course you'd avoid weapons, you won't want that ap or dhc bonus there... After all that, it's still only up to 16.5%. Oh and you couldn't help but have severity already above 100, much less 80, despite how hard you tried to avoid it.:D
You can go ahead and tell a newbie to get all that just for the privilege of being able to fit exploiters, or...
In other news, calculator:
http://comatoes.github.io/sto-crit-calc/
I honestly haven't bothered to check the accuracy overflow of his calculator. What is his mistake?
It calculates based on Acc vs. Def Difference instead of Accuracy Overflow. It ignores the actual %ToHit Calculation to find the amount over 100%...the overflow. It's just Acc - Def instead.
im not even trying, thats the thing, i could push it over 20 at the expense of two more console slots if i really wanted to.
The point is that feds and kdf run into the same imbalance as a rom does, it is not just high crit roms.
you seem to be obsessed with trying to prove me wrong, so I will again issue the challenge, make that ship I just described do its optimal DPS.
Oh and the avenger only has 4 tac consoles, smartass.
I hope you realize my ultimate goal, to shut you up and actually teach you how to build a ship properly. Its a trap, you should probably stop responding to me or you might actually learn something.
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
Lol, how many 200 lobi console are you going to use this time? How many embassy romulan tac boffs? How many people are you going to tell to change ships so they support 3 tac boffs and 5 tac consoles?
Your problem is egoism. You were trying to "prove ppl wrong" instead of helping ppl out.:rolleyes:
Btw, calculator.
http://comatoes.github.io/sto-crit-calc/
OK, I did some cursory checking, and he does appear to use the wrong formula.
funny you should say that...
I'd suggest hellspawny's calculator as well. https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/1pqjij3945tir5d/Calculator_English.xlsm?dl=1&token_hash=AAEnkHqxV_pRMLYkmES-vH5sodB-DJ8wCwJWK6OcJ_ddlQ
Just remember to change the acc overflow to use the correct formula by choosing 1 in cell G68. It's set to the incorrect formula by default. Best calculator i've seen yet.
Maybe, it's because I'm using LibreOffice instead of Excel, but I'm seeing weird behavior with that spreadsheet. For example, cell F75 refers to $B$69, but I don't see column B on the first tab.
Thanks. I was able to unhide the columns. The way he calculates some things seems weird to me, but not necessarily wrong. For example, he adds 30% accuracy from [Acc]x3 and then subtracts it again later.
Also note selecting F63 Ar"kif appears to give the extra plasma damage to all weapons. This includes the antiproton weapons. The antiprotons should only get the extra crit and crit sev. So don't use it to compare vs antiprotons.