Having cloak and not being able to detect cloak are actually two cups.
Also: Do they have a Jedi-General?
Actually, no. It's the same. You can't really be prepared for something you never knew about. Since Clone Troopers are not trained to fight invisible enemies, they'd be pretty surprised at first.
Then they would be dead.
"A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. LLAP"
10$ for Jems. They can still fight with injury, while clones don't... have you ever saw clone only wounded by blaster fire, they die after one shot... in leg.
They don't die, they become city guards.
"A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. LLAP"
Was it the clone troopers or the storm troopers that couldn't hit anything? I forget, but I suspect the Jem'Hadar would obliterate them. One of them killed Weyoun 4. Dude...
The Stormtroopers didn't hit anything only when it came to facing heroes. If you watch any other instance, the Stormtroopers clean house every time they faced Rebel infantry. Case in point? The boarding action of the Tantive IV. The Rebel infantry had the Stormtroopers funneled, zeroed in, and had some sort of cover. The Stormtroopers had to go through a small opening 1 or 2 at a time. They lost some, but the Rebels were getting dropped and eventually had enough to break and run away. Vader didn't even have to lift a finger.
The only issue arises is facing Main Character Plot Armor or when it's time to end the Trilogy, a.k.a. the ground based comedy of Return of the Jedi (this movie is where we see the first indications of Lucas losing it, honestly, and not beginning with the Prequels).
Princess Leia was shot once by a Storm Trooper in the shoulder I believe.. so they can DO something.
Anyway, J'H' will grind through legions of Storm Troopers due to shrouds and don't forget the subspace anti-personnel mines (Houdini's) they place that are also shrouded.
Storm Troopers armor would be transformed into an insta-porterpotty.
The Stormtroopers didn't hit anything only when it came to facing heroes. If you watch any other instance, the Stormtroopers clean house every time they faced Rebel infantry. Case in point? The boarding action of the Tantive IV. The Rebel infantry had the Stormtroopers funneled, zeroed in, and had some sort of cover. The Stormtroopers had to go through a small opening 1 or 2 at a time. They lost some, but the Rebels were getting dropped and eventually had enough to break and run away. Vader didn't even have to lift a finger.
The only issue arises is facing Main Character Plot Armor or when it's time to end the Trilogy, a.k.a. the ground based comedy of Return of the Jedi (this movie is where we see the first indications of Lucas losing it, honestly, and not beginning with the Prequels).
They got only two guys.
And if that hero thing is true, then you're insinuating that Ewoks are heroes.
EWOKS. ARE. NOT. HEROES.
"A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. LLAP"
Actually, no. It's the same. You can't really be prepared for something you never knew about. Since Clone Troopers are not trained to fight invisible enemies, they'd be pretty surprised at first.
Then they would be dead.
First thing is we do not really know the "Background" of the potential fight.
When it comes to a fight of that size it is easy to assume that there were previous encounters, therefore they now about stealth and may have developed counters. Wich is, on ground, not hard. Just cause enough dust around.
Second, even if not, thing is that the Jem'Hadar stealth was much weaker while moving.
And with an army of thousands it will not work any more. The clones might not be able so determine the Jem'hadar particular skin color, but they will see enough to shoot them in general.
The movement itself AND the dust caused by that much soldiers running around will be enough to render that cloak unusable.
Not saying that the Clones would win, but stealth will not be an advantaged as big as you believe I think.
I'm guesxing Jem'Hadar, they aren't afraid of death, whearas if a clone got injured he's all like 'don't kill me', andbesides, Clones suck, I mean, I may be biased, not really liking Star Wars, but Jemmy have everything the clones know, and more, so, I think they would win.
Storm troopers were useless, Clone troopers were highly skilled, and the 501st practically wiped out the Jedi...
Which I still find very inconsistent with the way Jedi were potrayed in the movies. It just doesn't feel very believable considering what we see Jedi do.
I suppose it was surprise, training and especially numbers that lead to their success.
And for that, I just don't see them being any better than the Jem'Hardar, and I would overall say the Jem'hardar have a clear advantage with their innate cloaking ability and quite possibly due to the targeted genetic manipulation that created them in the first place. They weren't based on some template of a guy that happened to be a good warrior, they were designed for combat from the start. And of course, they are already dead, only victory brings life, and they fight for their gods, not some corrupt senate.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
if captain rex has anything to say on the matter, he would likely take out entire companies of jem'hadar if he could with his squad. having fives on the side with other troopers, rex always thinks on his feet. shouding/cloaking is just light bending, with the right frequency and wavelength or whatever they got with the visors on their helmets, the clones would spot the jem'hadar anyways.
The 501st I mentioned does have Rex, Fives, Jesse, Appo, and most importantly, Hardcase even though he died. If you have them, then your side wins every time. Another reason that they would win is because Hardcase would keep foreign his mini gun and rocket launcher into the Jem'Hadar.
Storm troopers were useless, Clone troopers were highly skilled, and the 501st practically wiped out the Jedi...
Those Stormtroopers with Vader in most of the OT.
The 501st.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
The 501st were never the same after the Death Star blew up, they lost the best part of themselves at Yavin.
"The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
I thought the 501st was made up of all the remaining clones from other legions as well as a chunk of conscripts and recruits.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
The original toonami Clone Wars showed the clone troopers as highly disciplined, skilled and effective. By comparison, the 'later' Stormtroopers were a bunch of bungling incompetents like something out of Dad's Army...
The original toonami Clone Wars showed the clone troopers as highly disciplined, skilled and effective. By comparison, the 'later' Stormtroopers were a bunch of bungling incompetents like something out of Dad's Army...
I thought the 501st was made up of all the remaining clones from other legions as well as a chunk of conscripts and recruits.
........../10chr
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Which I still find very inconsistent with the way Jedi were potrayed in the movies. It just doesn't feel very believable considering what we see Jedi do.
I suppose it was surprise, training and especially numbers that lead to their success.
And for that, I just don't see them being any better than the Jem'Hardar, and I would overall say the Jem'hardar have a clear advantage with their innate cloaking ability and quite possibly due to the targeted genetic manipulation that created them in the first place. They weren't based on some template of a guy that happened to be a good warrior, they were designed for combat from the start. And of course, they are already dead, only victory brings life, and they fight for their gods, not some corrupt senate.
I think the distinction would be the engagement. At a distance, I think the clone troops would have clean house, but up close, I think the Jem'Hadar would overcome them (but only if the troopers helmets could not detect them while shrouded...)
Jem'Hadar are pretty worthless as individual soldiers, let's be honest. Pudgy, pasty Miles O'Brien could kick their asses in unarmed combat, and they loose in a shootout with a bunch of half-trained Ferengi. Which, if you think about it, sorta fits with them basically being underpaid drug addicts. Even their phased-polaron weapons are kinda weak they just somehow make people bleed out instead of disintegrating them like a disruptor.
All they got going for them is Predator-ripoff shrouds, their vast numbers, and their almost fanatical devotion to the pope- erm, Founders.
Them vs. storm troopers though... I think you're looking at a battle that never ends.
...Oh, baby, you know, I've really got to leave you / Oh, I can hear it callin 'me / I said don't you hear it callin' me the way it used to do?...
- Anne Bredon
I feel this is fictional apples vs fictional oranges. Both were shown to be brilliant one moment and terrible the next depending on the situation. its so hard to judge skill when the writers/actors create situations where they are brutal and efficient and then incompetent to fit the script.
If I really had to choose, in the long run I would say the Jem'hadar because they age faster and are more ruthless. The clones have been shown to be fairly normal people as they are based off of a 'real' person so they do maintain their humanity.
If this ever came to the field of battle i'd most likely say Jem'hadar.
Why do I say this? well it's the standard policy of the Dominion if they perceive a government as a threat to send a infiltrator or several to replace key individuals. so more then likely there would be several shape shifters in the government and possibly on the battlefield. (like the Lovok changeling) Since there was no experience in the republic of dealing with the founders tactics they would be ill equipped to handle it.
If this ever came to the field of battle i'd most likely say Jem'hadar.
Why do I say this? well it's the standard policy of the Dominion if they perceive a government as a threat to send a infiltrator or several to replace key individuals. so more then likely there would be several shape shifters in the government and possibly on the battlefield. (like the Lovok changeling) Since there was no experience in the republic of dealing with the founders tactics they would be ill equipped to handle it.
By that logic: Palpatine will have figured out the Changeling infiltrators before they can even blink.
Clones as a whole existed just before the creation of the empire and order 66. Palpantine had no use for them when he got full control, he got rid of the individual styles and made them all plain white and black plastic looking. as far as i know none clones joined the new stormtrooper corps after this, it was stated in Commander Cody's later years that he got bitter about the lack of talent with the non clone troops and missed the efficiency of his clone brothers because they were all from the same stock, so each clone was just as good as the next, compared to the erraticness of a non clone squad.
stormtroopers would of been haplessly outmatched by the Jam'Hadar, however those clone troops would of been a lot harder to take out.
T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW. Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
I think it all depends on how good the Clones are at detecting things like shroud and Houdini mines. Jem'Hadar depend on demoralizing and chipping until the enemy cracks in stand offs. Over all it is Jem'Hadar if the battle is short and Clones if its long.
Comments
Actually, no. It's the same. You can't really be prepared for something you never knew about. Since Clone Troopers are not trained to fight invisible enemies, they'd be pretty surprised at first.
Then they would be dead.
-Leonard Nimoy, RIP
They don't die, they become city guards.
-Leonard Nimoy, RIP
The Stormtroopers didn't hit anything only when it came to facing heroes. If you watch any other instance, the Stormtroopers clean house every time they faced Rebel infantry. Case in point? The boarding action of the Tantive IV. The Rebel infantry had the Stormtroopers funneled, zeroed in, and had some sort of cover. The Stormtroopers had to go through a small opening 1 or 2 at a time. They lost some, but the Rebels were getting dropped and eventually had enough to break and run away. Vader didn't even have to lift a finger.
The only issue arises is facing Main Character Plot Armor or when it's time to end the Trilogy, a.k.a. the ground based comedy of Return of the Jedi (this movie is where we see the first indications of Lucas losing it, honestly, and not beginning with the Prequels).
Anyway, J'H' will grind through legions of Storm Troopers due to shrouds and don't forget the subspace anti-personnel mines (Houdini's) they place that are also shrouded.
Storm Troopers armor would be transformed into an insta-porterpotty.
They got only two guys.
And if that hero thing is true, then you're insinuating that Ewoks are heroes.
EWOKS. ARE. NOT. HEROES.
-Leonard Nimoy, RIP
First thing is we do not really know the "Background" of the potential fight.
When it comes to a fight of that size it is easy to assume that there were previous encounters, therefore they now about stealth and may have developed counters. Wich is, on ground, not hard. Just cause enough dust around.
Second, even if not, thing is that the Jem'Hadar stealth was much weaker while moving.
And with an army of thousands it will not work any more. The clones might not be able so determine the Jem'hadar particular skin color, but they will see enough to shoot them in general.
The movement itself AND the dust caused by that much soldiers running around will be enough to render that cloak unusable.
Not saying that the Clones would win, but stealth will not be an advantaged as big as you believe I think.
That only works with arrows. In knees.
Very important distinction...
Storm troopers were useless, Clone troopers were highly skilled, and the 501st practically wiped out the Jedi...
Which I still find very inconsistent with the way Jedi were potrayed in the movies. It just doesn't feel very believable considering what we see Jedi do.
I suppose it was surprise, training and especially numbers that lead to their success.
And for that, I just don't see them being any better than the Jem'Hardar, and I would overall say the Jem'hardar have a clear advantage with their innate cloaking ability and quite possibly due to the targeted genetic manipulation that created them in the first place. They weren't based on some template of a guy that happened to be a good warrior, they were designed for combat from the start. And of course, they are already dead, only victory brings life, and they fight for their gods, not some corrupt senate.
The 501st I mentioned does have Rex, Fives, Jesse, Appo, and most importantly, Hardcase even though he died. If you have them, then your side wins every time. Another reason that they would win is because Hardcase would keep foreign his mini gun and rocket launcher into the Jem'Hadar.
Those Stormtroopers with Vader in most of the OT.
The 501st.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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See artan42's comment.
If they can't hit Han Solo and freaking Chewbacca, what chance to they have against invisible Jem'Hadar?????
In their defence, the Empire stopped cloning after Episode III. Imperial Stormtroopers are recruited, not cloned.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
Seriously? Last I checked, Wookiepedia said otherwise...
Well, that's what Battlefront II and Empire at War said, so as far as I know, it's canon.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
I'd check Wookiepedia, but I'm too lazy ATM.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
But still Stormtroopers, not clone troopers...
The original toonami Clone Wars showed the clone troopers as highly disciplined, skilled and effective. By comparison, the 'later' Stormtroopers were a bunch of bungling incompetents like something out of Dad's Army...
........../10chr
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
I think the distinction would be the engagement. At a distance, I think the clone troops would have clean house, but up close, I think the Jem'Hadar would overcome them (but only if the troopers helmets could not detect them while shrouded...)
All they got going for them is Predator-ripoff shrouds, their vast numbers, and their almost fanatical devotion to the pope- erm, Founders.
Them vs. storm troopers though... I think you're looking at a battle that never ends.
...Oh, baby, you know, I've really got to leave you / Oh, I can hear it callin 'me / I said don't you hear it callin' me the way it used to do?...
- Anne Bredon
If I really had to choose, in the long run I would say the Jem'hadar because they age faster and are more ruthless. The clones have been shown to be fairly normal people as they are based off of a 'real' person so they do maintain their humanity.
In a one on one battle, I think its a coin toss.
Why do I say this? well it's the standard policy of the Dominion if they perceive a government as a threat to send a infiltrator or several to replace key individuals. so more then likely there would be several shape shifters in the government and possibly on the battlefield. (like the Lovok changeling) Since there was no experience in the republic of dealing with the founders tactics they would be ill equipped to handle it.
[/SIGPIC]
By that logic: Palpatine will have figured out the Changeling infiltrators before they can even blink.
stormtroopers would of been haplessly outmatched by the Jam'Hadar, however those clone troops would of been a lot harder to take out.
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
Jem'Hadar have done x y and z against a b and c in the Star Trek universe where things make slightly more sense.
Jem'Hadar win by virtue of a universe that makes more sense.