Shuttle PvP - Full Size Fleet Support Doesn't Go Away

ethercircuit

Just finished a shuttle pvp match where the other team summoned 3 full sized fleet supports that never went away the entire match.

Is anyone surprised this couldn't even make it an entire day without people trying to ruin it?

l30p4rd

C'est la vie !

ussultimatum

ethercircuit wrote: »

Just finished a shuttle pvp match where the other team summoned 3 full sized fleet supports that never went away the entire match.

Is anyone surprised this couldn't even make it an entire day without people trying to ruin it?

Most PvPers will use whatever powers are available to them, and not for nothing Fleet Support is on my spacebar bind.

It just pops out without me even thinking about it (I haven't joined the shuttle PvP queue yet). So blindly blaming other players for "trying to ruin it" is a bit silly.



Things like Nimbus Pirates, Fleet Support, Photonic Fleet and basically every damage/debuff console (isometric charge, SIC "black hole", Theta, GPG, etc.) really should have been balanced for Shuttle PvP the way the PDS console was.

I think these were going to be an issue that should have been seen a mile away, if one console was clearly problematic...well then most of the others are clearly problematic as well - including things like fleet support and maybe even photonic fleet.

kimmym

When you pop Fleet Support on a shuttle map you actually get shuttles.

Currently the small craft PvP happens in Zones designated as for full sized starships.

They need to copy/paste the arenas and tag the shuttle versions as small craft only.

Edit: Photonic fleet does not suffer this problem, IIRC. I used it all the time in shuttle PvP before.

Edit2: At least that is how it used to work, most certainly. I laughed for a solid 10 minutes the first time I called in a shuttle to save me..

mancom

Things like AMS and GravPulse are surprisingly problematic due to the lack of abilities that can clear them when one is flying a shuttle. Pretty much everything that requires an ability to counter its effect needs to be checked for balance in shuttle pvp (probably including plasma procs and other things one usually doesn't even think about).

rmy1081

mancom wrote: »

Things like AMS and GravPulse are surprisingly problematic due to the lack of abilities that can clear them when one is flying a shuttle. Pretty much everything that requires an ability to counter its effect needs to be checked for balance in shuttle pvp (probably including plasma procs and other things one usually doesn't even think about).

yeah...If they just scaled the duration and damage procs and whatever I think it would all be fine.

borticuscryptic

mancom wrote: »

Things like AMS and GravPulse are surprisingly problematic due to the lack of abilities that can clear them when one is flying a shuttle. Pretty much everything that requires an ability to counter its effect needs to be checked for balance in shuttle pvp (probably including plasma procs and other things one usually doesn't even think about).

On the other hand, the attacker using any of the above abilities has fewer options to exploit the opportunities created by them, since their gear/ability choices are just as limited as yours are.

magniacapra

When your stuck in a cloud of tetryon plasma because you brought a sci team instead of a hazards, it doesn't really matter if that other player doesn't have a sub nuke, apa, an in build CRF or Beam overload along with a tetryon lettice and/or PDS... oh...

antoniosalieri

borticuscryptic wrote: »

On the other hand, the attacker using any of the above abilities has fewer options to exploit the opportunities created by them, since their gear/ability choices are just as limited as yours are.

This is sort of a bad argument. If everyone is dead because you just hit them with a console balanced around full sized ship combat... you hardly need to worry about counters yourself.

Honestly ISO Graviton Pulse NImbus Theta heck even ams... all should have been either modified for shuttle combat or simply disabled as options to slot on shuttles.

The game mode would be fun... if it wasn't possible to wipe an entire team at will with an iso... or call in full sized support ships.

It is what it is... really though if you guys want this game mode to survive your going to have to address the basic fact that... consoles balanced around full sized combat are never going to be balanced when taken into PvP involving shuttles. lol

l30p4rd

They will never balance it because they have to do some work other than new content and consoles. IF they do address the balance issue from this knee jerk reaction to PvP they may as well go ahead and balance all PvP while they are at it.

This as we all know will never happen. They will just pull this new PvP arena with a promise of it's return soon (in the next few years, maybe).

Just coz a co-worker hosts a shuttle PvP event and gets good feedback from those who attended does not mean the PvP community as a whole wants this. Dont get me wrong adding new PvP content is a step in the right direction, but at least think about what you are doing and how it will play/work !

Everything from you lately feels badly thought out, rushed and unfinished !

brandonfl

l30p4rd wrote: »

They will never balance it because they have to do some work other than new content and consoles. IF they do address the balance issue from this knee jerk reaction to PvP they may as well go ahead and balance all PvP while they are at it.

This as we all know will never happen. They will just pull this new PvP arena with a promise of it's return soon (in the next few years, maybe).

Just coz a co-worker hosts a shuttle PvP event and gets good feedback from those who attended does not mean the PvP community as a whole wants this. Dont get me wrong adding new PvP content is a step in the right direction, but at least think about what you are doing and how it will play/work !

Everything from you lately feels badly thought out, rushed and unfinished !

Lately? lol, the game was released in a badly though out, rushed and unfinished state. I consider the first 2 years to have been an extension of Beta.

verusisrael

l30p4rd wrote: »

Everything from you lately feels badly thought out, rushed and unfinished !

having worked for a video game publisher i can promise you the tale tell signs of everything you just said are glaringly apparent.

it's not fair to blame devs but the managers and money men who dictate this business. And don't let your naivete blind you to the fact that at the end of the day this game we play for fun IS a business

kimmym

While yes, things are rushed and buggy, I can't really complain about how we are treated.

Best F2P model I've ever seen. Hands down. It's not even a question.

We get free stuff all the time. We don't need to buy the stuff that is there.

And it's Star Trek!

Somebody has to make the tough desicions, and you can never have everything, but somebody in there is making them well enough that we are being treated quite well. If some of the quality is slipping? I don't like that any more then you do, but honestly, I'd rather be treated well by good people then treated poorly by a top performing jerk... Just my opinion I suppose.

I'd rather play STO with bugs then deal with any of the other companies out there in F2P, no matter how well written.

ussultimatum

borticuscryptic wrote: »

On the other hand, the attacker using any of the above abilities has fewer options to exploit the opportunities created by them, since their gear/ability choices are just as limited as yours are.

You can basically kill one or more shuttles with things like Isometric charge and Black Hole generators.

It's a game of paper planes, no one has much ability to heal or even make standard attacks - so slotting a standard console like a neutronium has little value.

On the other hand being able to outright remove several opponents with a single isometric charge or a black hole has that much more value since it's more powerful than any ensign boff power or combination of boff powers you could conceive of.


These types of mass AoE consoles, damage or control such as Grav Pulse Gen, Theta, these are all consoles that have significant effects on full size ships - much less ships running around with about 17k hull and 1 or 2 BOFF ensigns.


In essence, the Point Defense System was no worse than any of these other consoles, if it made sense to tweak that one for Shuttle PvP then it makes sense to tweak the rest of them.

glassguitar

I would like to see the Fleet Support function addressed, but other than that I guess I am the exception. I absolutely love the ridiculous OP consoles in this setting. The fights are fast and furious and the OP consoles only add to the fun IMHO.

For the record I myself have been running a very straightforward Peregrine build. Two tactical consoles and the Assimilated Console, MK XII Assimilated Space Set one DBB, one DHC and Beam Overload to go with the built in Rapid Fire. I love taking my "stock car" up against the "super mods" personally.

p2wsucks

ussultimatum wrote: »

You can basically kill one or more shuttles with things like Isometric charge and Black Hole generators.

It's a game of paper planes, no one has much ability to heal or even make standard attacks - so slotting a standard console like a neutronium has little value.

On the other hand being able to outright remove several opponents with a single isometric charge or a black hole has that much more value since it's more powerful than any ensign boff power or combination of boff powers you could conceive of.


These types of mass AoE consoles, damage or control such as Grav Pulse Gen, Theta, these are all consoles that have significant effects on full size ships - much less ships running around with about 17k hull and 1 or 2 BOFF ensigns.


In essence, the Point Defense System was no worse than any of these other consoles, if it made sense to tweak that one for Shuttle PvP then it makes sense to tweak the rest of them.

Are any of the Tac or Eng captain powers toned down?

I'm asking b/c when I used an ET1 on myself it's ~1+k and when a pugmate used it I got 8k in repairs. The same boff power ... not looking a gift horse in the mouth, but seems out of whack.

Iirc, tb hold scales w/ship size (though I could be wrong if it's actually doing this). It seems the rightly corrected a lot of the repairs (not sure about Dyson full set bonus), but some stuff seems off.

Not sure if they toned down all the captain powers like photonic fleet, but they should. Imo, would be better if they did that too (including SNB) along the same lines as console/set damage/effectiveness you mentioned.

Also, the shuttle ships should be even faster and more agile imo. There should be a clear advantage to them in movement over "full sized" ships. It would make them more fun and viable in Ker'rat and any other mixed map that may come along.

killdozer9211

My biggest complaint about this is that full sized starship components are even installible on small craft, and have been since Atmosphere Assault went live.

Why bother selling us shuttle-based items if they're all outclassed by weapons fitted to shuttles that were never designed or balanced to be?

p2wsucks

Played shuttle pugs for about a day and a half. Even w/obviously unscaled abilities etc, still a more fun playstyle for me than full sized PvP. Tbh, even when facing things like grav console etc better than full sized "cheese".

dunklestosis

Are there any shuttles other than the Delta flyer that have 2 ensign slots? That one little insignificant slot makes a difference when one has to choose between a heal or an attack buff but the other guy gets both.

p2wsucks

dunklestosis wrote: »

Are there any shuttles other than the Delta flyer that have 2 ensign slots? That one little insignificant slot makes a difference when one has to choose between a heal or an attack buff but the other guy gets both.

Thb, I don't know, but Rommies have B/C shuttles. The C-Store scorpian is more Tac oriented w/2 tac consoles and overcharge singularity power (what I've mostly been using). I think it's the Vet shuttle on Rommy that has quat absorb. So, really not that big a difference from a ship w/2ens slots, imo.

rmy1081

dunklestosis wrote: »

Are there any shuttles other than the Delta flyer that have 2 ensign slots? That one little insignificant slot makes a difference when one has to choose between a heal or an attack buff but the other guy gets both.

The Vulcan shuttle has 2 science slots but no tac console stations. The Vet shuttle has EPtS1 built in. The voth heavy fighter has an ens eng and an ens uni.

That's all I can think of.

one4theages

kimmym wrote: »

While yes, things are rushed and buggy, I can't really complain about how we are treated.

Best F2P model I've ever seen. Hands down. It's not even a question.

are you joking??????????? planetside 2 is a pure pvp game. that game is a better f2p model then sto could ever be. that game is a grind sure. by killing things. thats what people enjoy. not playing the same mission a million times over. not only that but none of the classes were neglected. ie, being an engy and getting proper points for actually repairing things.

stop living in the joke we call sto. its a pve game and its not even fun at that. its like having a second job as if we were playing eve. and eve is a nasty grind. sto is catching up to it. i dare you to say no. in eve people need to do training just to get things. well we have rep grind. just try to take a year break. you lost on on at least 2-3 rep systems.

just like in eve people cant take a break. they log start a training program log out. kinda like we do in sto.


and bort man, i really care less about my account on fourms or in game. take it how you want too. but that was a pure cop out excuse towards a new pvp mode that craptic just put into the game. if pwe wants to retain player then it should be towards all players. not just the casual crowed. you give us missions, a second job to get this gear for what? run the same lame stf a million times over?

i thought pvp was ment to be end game. yet you treat it as if its not even part of the game.

i take this TRIBBLE to heart. i should not cause its a game. but i happen to have liked it at a point. craptic took the enjoyment away. and thats actually sad.

dunklestosis

p2wsucks wrote: »

Thb, I don't know, but Rommies have B/C shuttles. The C-Store scorpian is more Tac oriented w/2 tac consoles and overcharge singularity power (what I've mostly been using). I think it's the Vet shuttle on Rommy that has quat absorb. So, really not that big a difference from a ship w/2ens slots, imo.

Its not a huge difference, I agree, I only even noticed because I was held in a TB and while we exchanged fire the other player threw a haz emitter on himself, more than enough to tip the outcome of that little fight

p2wsucks

dunklestosis wrote: »

Its not a huge difference, I agree, I only even noticed because I was held in a TB and while we exchanged fire the other player threw a haz emitter on himself, more than enough to tip the outcome of that little fight

What were you flying? How was it equiped?

Edit: Also, some are using Borg set TB,fyi.

dunklestosis

p2wsucks wrote: »

What were you flying? How was it equiped?

Edit: Also, some are using Borg set TB,fyi.

I'm flying a scorpion with khg adapted deflector and shield with khg honor guard engines, fleet sing core, rest all Eng. console, Borg and bio infusion (for up boost, I was using tac consoles but changed it) cannons and cutting beam. Was running a beam with bo1 but went back to cannons. Ts1 in boff slot.

p2wsucks

dunklestosis wrote: »

I'm flying a scorpion with khg adapted deflector and shield with khg honor guard engines, fleet sing core, rest all Eng. console, Borg and bio infusion (for up boost, I was using tac consoles but changed it) cannons and cutting beam. Was running a beam with bo1 but went back to cannons. Ts1 in boff slot.

Imo, KHG shields are bad b/c they have crappy regen and there aren't enough shield repairs w/shuttles to refill them quickly. The engines are bad b/c they're combat. I've used Omega engines (hyper) and the Dyson shield (free repairs) and found them to be fine. Others have used Borg for the built in repairs.

If you're using cannons to drop a shield facing you should be fading in and out (really should be doing this regardless). Recloaking when not on a strafe run for decloak bonus. Even in a dual after strafing past a target cloaking isn't a bad idea so as long you're out of high dps arc. Save your evasives for high engine power escapes and spec into damps (this will get you out of most TB ranges, this is what did you in not the HE). Not sure where you're power levels are for high weapon power preset, but if you find yourself constantly out positioned in a match may want to put more in engines.

Along w/piloting managing power levels is important, eg switching to high shield or more importantly high engine preset and back.

Not sure what doffs you have, but I'd use at least 1 hazard for hull resist boost.

dunklestosis

p2wsucks wrote: »

Imo, KHG shields are bad b/c they have crappy regen and there aren't enough shield repairs w/shuttles to refill them quickly. The engines are bad b/c they're combat. I've used Omega engines (hyper) and the Dyson shield (free repairs) and found them to be fine. Others have used Borg for the built in repairs.

If you're using cannons to drop a shield facing you should be fading in and out (really should be doing this regardless). Recloaking when not on a strafe run for decloak bonus. Even in a dual after strafing past a target cloaking isn't a bad idea so as long you're out of high dps arc. Save your evasives for high engine power escapes and spec into damps (this will get you out of most TB ranges, this is what did you in not the HE). Not sure where you're power levels are for high weapon power preset, but if you find yourself constantly out positioned in a match may want to put more in engines.

Along w/piloting managing power levels is important, eg switching to high shield or more importantly high engine preset and back.

Not sure what doffs you have, but I'd use at least 1 hazard for hull resist boost.

Power is weapons first at 125 engines are second, shields then aux. I'll pop on my omega engines and grab some Dyson shields or try my fleet reg/adpt first. I typically cloak/decloak, goes with the territory.

glassguitar

killdozer9211 wrote: »

My biggest complaint about this is that full sized starship components are even installible on small craft, and have been since Atmosphere Assault went live.

Why bother selling us shuttle-based items if they're all outclassed by weapons fitted to shuttles that were never designed or balanced to be?

They have been as long as I have been playing the game, not a recent thing.

ankokuneko

dunklestosis wrote: »

Are there any shuttles other than the Delta flyer that have 2 ensign slots? That one little insignificant slot makes a difference when one has to choose between a heal or an attack buff but the other guy gets both.

every shuttle except the stalker has at least 2 abilities, either 2 boff slots or a boff slot and a built in ability. KDF shuttles gain a cloak bonus in addition to those 2 boff powers and rom shuttles get 1 boff slot + 1 singularity power + cloak

and then you have lobi shuttles which do ridiculous things in addition to the 2 basic boff powers like HE4 (voth), TIF (temporal) ect

adjudicatorhawk

Re: The original subject, we will be changing Fleet Support to summon shuttles, runabouts, or fighters when used by a small craft. The ships persisting after summoner death is intentional - it feels crappy to activate the power at low health, die instantly, lose your pets, and have the power go on cooldown. We just need to make the summoned ships viable to fight against for small craft.