Any non-A2B battle cruisers these days?

generator88

Hey there,

So currently, my Gorn Engineer flies a K'tinga retrofit as a stepping stone to eventually getting a Fleet Negh'var that looks like so:

http://www.stoacademy.com/tools/skillplanner/index.php?build=haazekneghvar_5035

It certainly works well enough, but surely there have to be some Battlecruiser builds that aren't dual-a2b, right? I'm just feeling like I'd like to at least explore a different approach.

Thanks for your time.

Gen

mandoknight89

Standard procedure (as far as I know) for when you don't have the cash for Technicians and/or B'tran isn't even giving you the time of day is to go for an Emergency Power cycle. 2xEPtX1, 2xEPtY3 (or similar) will cycle for as close to a 100% uptime as the game allows (allowing for activation times and latency in the input).

generator88

Oh, I've got Technicians, Haazek worked B'Tran Cluster hard. This is really more about just trying something different. My first impulse was to just yank out the a2b, replace the Technician doffs with a pair of Damage Control Engineers, maybe RSP1 and A2D1.

Although if I'm going to have an aux score now, maybe that means I go Kamarag instead of Negh'var? Use GW1 to bunch up targets and unleash on them with CSV/TS. Hmm...

dahminus

http://skillplanner.stoacademy.com/?build=nonaux_0
3 cannon cool down doffs, reversed polarity doff, dem doff, and a warp core doff.

I would go beams over cannons, then you can have an attack pattern beta and have beams at global cool down.

Aux2bat was made for ships like this....at the very minimum without doffs, you need 6 tactical slots

Anyways, let me know if you have any questions.

Cheers

rodentmaster

2x purple DCEs and you don't need A2Bat on a battlecruiser. Use these for your EPT cooldowns, chain any 2 EPTs you like nonstop (in other words EPTS and EPTW). Load out any other A2Damp/A2SIF/RSP/ES/ET combo that you like.

Then for whatever loadout you use get 3x energy weapon doffs to cool down either beam or cannon skills. You can get away with 2x doffs for whatever weapon type you specialize in, but you can also get an extra active space doff from spire rep.


The thing about using A2Bat is you cool down all other skills as well, but you kill ALL skills that require aux power, that means A2SIF, A2Damp, HE, TSS, anything you might use. By using DCEs and EWO doffs you can get a lot more functionality out of your aux power. Even if you just run nominal levels (~50 power) you can get a lot more cross-healing power that don't conflict -- like ET and A2SIF and TSS as well as ES or EPTS, things where you can double up an instant heal for dire situations.

I use some A2Bats and some non-A2Bats and both are perfectly valid loadouts. You trade aux and exactly what you're cooling down. IMO going non-a2bat is probably better.

generator88

Why wouldn't 2 EPTX work in conjunction with some Damage Control Engineers?

rodentmaster

generator88 wrote: »

Why wouldn't 2 EPTX work in conjunction with some Damage Control Engineers?

They do. They work fine with DCEs. In fact you really need 2 and you need to hit them nonstop, because the proc from one will cool down the other. Using them piece-meal won't get you the same cooldown benefits. You need to keybind spam them, basically.

generator88

rodentmaster wrote: »

They do. They work fine with DCEs. In fact you really need 2 and you need to hit them nonstop, because the proc from one will cool down the other. Using them piece-meal won't get you the same cooldown benefits. You need to keybind spam them, basically.

I'm no stranger to dual EPTX. That's a staple of many of my builds, and most of them have a nice keybind going that cycles them. The question was more directed at dahminus, whose sample build uses four Emergency Power abilities.

I actually just ran the numbers on him in the Power Calc spreadsheet; the amount of energy he'll have to throw around is staggering. Leech and EPS Manifold Efficiency FTW!

Gen

rodentmaster

Chaining 4 copies of EPTs is an old gameplay method that still works. It's from before DCE doffs were widely known about (and before they were in-game, even!), and for folks just starting out without good doffs it's a perfectly valid system. It works -- or WORKED because they've screwed over the cooldowns on EPTs nowadays -- by getting full uptime on EPTS by using cooldown synergy. You'd alternate EPTW, EPTS, EPTW2, EPTS2, and by the time you got to your second copy of either skill the CD was at global.

It takes up 2x as many boff slots, but on ENG-heavy cruisers it's perfectly feasible. For beginners to ENG-heavy cruisers I think it's a good start. Takes no investment to test out.

bitemepwe

edit. got my DCE confused with my WCE.

so why not run (3) DCE doffs (2) Energy weapon doffs (1) what ever doff so your EPTx and Weapons of choice cycle rapidly?

mandoknight89

rodentmaster wrote: »

Chaining 4 copies of EPTs is an old gameplay method that still works. It's from before DCE doffs were widely known about (and before they were in-game, even!), and for folks just starting out without good doffs it's a perfectly valid system. It works -- or WORKED because they've screwed over the cooldowns on EPTs nowadays -- by getting full uptime on EPTS by using cooldown synergy. You'd alternate EPTW, EPTS, EPTW2, EPTS2, and by the time you got to your second copy of either skill the CD was at global.

It takes up 2x as many boff slots, but on ENG-heavy cruisers it's perfectly feasible. For beginners to ENG-heavy cruisers I think it's a good start. Takes no investment to test out.

It's also more reliable (the cooldown issues starting with Season 8 are display errors, where longer cooldowns don't necessarily trump shorter ones on the display) and frees up your Doff slots (if you have something else to run there). Even 3 purple DCEs don't guarantee that you'll get perfect chains off every time.

If you run only two Emergency Power abilities, you're also forced to either run them both at level 1 or run an Engineering Team that might not ever see use.

hereticknight085

mandoknight89 wrote: »

It's also more reliable (the cooldown issues starting with Season 8 are display errors, where longer cooldowns don't necessarily trump shorter ones on the display) and frees up your Doff slots (if you have something else to run there). Even 3 purple DCEs don't guarantee that you'll get perfect chains off every time.

If you run only two Emergency Power abilities, you're also forced to either run them both at level 1 or run an Engineering Team that might not ever see use.

Should also be noted that there is a slight bug with EPtX that I've been noticing for the past week or so where your EPtX abilities will suddenly jump UP a few seconds, and usually at the end of their CDs (ie from 1 second left to 4 seconds left, from off cooldown to a 4 second cooldown, things like that). Something else to keep in mind.

mimey2

I've been starting to use the A2D DOFF a lot more and loving it quite a bit. Put it together with EPTE and you can make pretty much anything turn.

dahminus

http://skillplanner.stoacademy.com/?build=nonaux2batwithheals_0
No doffs required. And still able to do 10k dps easy.

Aux2bat is for ships with 3 or less tactical boff abilities slots.

rodentmaster

Mandoknight, you're NOT limited to running them at level one, and ET is good to have for large chunk hull heals as well as restoring system shutdowns. Even if you don't use it all the time because of tac team cooldowns, it's good to have on an ENG-heavy ship. Especially if you want to throw heals around. My K'T'inga retro often out-heals most other ships in an STF. I've done more heals AND more damage (DPS and total) than anybody else in an ISE before. The K'T'inga retro has LtCDR and CMDR eng boffs, so you can run 2x EPTX3 powers and whatever you like elsewhere. Yes, you get a useless ensign effect if you don't run one of the EPTs at ENS level, but honestly you have enough skill slots to waste. You can still stick a ET, A2SIF, A2Damp, ES, RSP, DEM on there in whatever combination you like and not worry.

2x purple DCEs are fairly reliable if you constantly chain them. If you break the chain you break the proc cycle, but 2 of them have 95% uptime practically speaking. 3 is overkill but is more than reliable.

As for the cooldowns, they are not graphical and they aren't bugs. The PvP whiners screwed over the entire power tray system because they whined hard enough that Cryptic changed the way powers cool down. Now it does this stupid cooldown then a SECOND cooldown on top of that if you try to trigger the skill a split second before it's done, or some such. The PvPers were running BO, waiting for it to almost time out, and stacking it with a second BO for double BO damage. Instead of just making the latest BO clear out the previous BO, or just making BO have a slightly longer cooldown, they screwed over the entier power tray system. It's moronic, but that's par for the course with Cryptic "features" these days. At the same patch which added more cooldowns, they changed how the key binds work as well. It used to be on standard shield balance + power tray row keybind you could hit the key once and balance shields AND run the first power, hit it a second time for another shield balance and to run the second power, etc... Now it runs once to balance shields, you press it again to activate power, you press it again to activate power 2, and if you stop you have to press it twice again (to get past balancing the shields and into actually activating the power).

Thanks a lot, PVP whiners. You the vocal minority screwed over the silent majority on that one.

mandoknight89

hereticknight085 wrote: »

Should also be noted that there is a slight bug with EPtX that I've been noticing for the past week or so where your EPtX abilities will suddenly jump UP a few seconds, and usually at the end of their CDs (ie from 1 second left to 4 seconds left, from off cooldown to a 4 second cooldown, things like that). Something else to keep in mind.

rodentmaster wrote: »

As for the cooldowns, they are not graphical and they aren't bugs. The PvP whiners screwed over the entire power tray system because they whined hard enough that Cryptic changed the way powers cool down. Now it does this stupid cooldown then a SECOND cooldown on top of that if you try to trigger the skill a split second before it's done, or some such. The PvPers were running BO, waiting for it to almost time out, and stacking it with a second BO for double BO damage. Instead of just making the latest BO clear out the previous BO, or just making BO have a slightly longer cooldown, they screwed over the entier power tray system. It's moronic, but that's par for the course with Cryptic "features" these days. At the same patch which added more cooldowns, they changed how the key binds work as well. It used to be on standard shield balance + power tray row keybind you could hit the key once and balance shields AND run the first power, hit it a second time for another shield balance and to run the second power, etc... Now it runs once to balance shields, you press it again to activate power, you press it again to activate power 2, and if you stop you have to press it twice again (to get past balancing the shields and into actually activating the power).

Thanks a lot, PVP whiners. You the vocal minority screwed over the silent majority on that one.

They are graphical errors. It's easiest to see if you run the old 2/2 EPtX/Y layout.

First, hit your first EPtX power, and watch the cooldown on the second copy... it goes to 30s, like it should. Now, instead of hitting EPtY exactly 15s later (when it comes off the cooldown), hit it 25s, when EPtX#2 is at 5s.

As it's currently set up, EPtX#2 will continue counting down from 5s, and then jump up to around 10-12s (depending on various latencies) when that 5s finishes... but you look at EPtY's cooldown, and it's at 30s when EPtX#2 is refreshed... which means that EPtY imposed the 15s cooldown on EPtX#2 that it was supposed to, but you don't see that until the cooldown that EPtX#1 imposed on #2 is finished.

Before Season 8, the displayed cooldowns were more properly behaved.

The other issue (the one of multiple-power keybinds "skipping" powers on occasion) that you're conflating with this one is a completely different matter.

rodentmaster wrote: »

The K'T'inga retro has LtCDR and CMDR eng boffs, so you can run 2x EPTX3 powers and whatever you like elsewhere. Yes, you get a useless ensign effect if you don't run one of the EPTs at ENS level, but honestly you have enough skill slots to waste. You can still stick a ET, A2SIF, A2Damp, ES, RSP, DEM on there in whatever combination you like and not worry.

Yes, you can run a ship without all of its powers, but if you're going to run useless Ensign slots because you're confident in your DCEs, at least run one backup at level 1, in case you don't get the proc (with 2 purples and 1/1 EPtX/Y, there's about an 18% chance of not getting the proc in time to keep the pattern going, and about a 7.5% chance with 3 purples).

rodentmaster

I suppose you could run an "Oh sh&%" third EPT power, EPTE1, and just break the chain and slam on the go-juice to get out of bad situations. Though mostly I use deuterium for that purpose. That could be a good use for the "useless ensign" eng skill slots.

ethercircuit

In general an engineer with EPS manifold trait and enough tac boff skills can be competitive without Aux2Batt.

doffingcomrade

generator88 wrote: »

It certainly works well enough, but surely there have to be some Battlecruiser builds that aren't dual-a2b, right? I'm just feeling like I'd like to at least explore a different approach.

The catch with both ships is that they lack enough Tactical slots to function in even a basic damage-dealing role. These days, dealing competitive modern damage requires room to operate your weapons and an attack pattern. Running Tactical team is also considered fairly important. Even without this, you need a minimum of 4 tactical slots, either real or virtual, in which you can slot your attack pattern and weapon skill.

These older cruisers simply lack this. The best you can do is run beams on it, but even then you'll need to conjure the missing slots somehow, and this requires either very expensive attack pattern and/or weapon doffs, or ATB.

rodentmaster wrote: »

2x purple DCEs are fairly reliable if you constantly chain them. If you break the chain you break the proc cycle, but 2 of them have 95% uptime practically speaking. 3 is overkill but is more than reliable.

DCEs are extremely unreliable. Consider the facts: Each DCE has a 35% chance of doing its job. In a 30-second cycle of 2xETPxen, you need at least one proc, of which you get 6 attempts. This means that each one has a 65% chance of failure, which means that the chance you will successfully cycle your ship once is 92.4% (1 - 0.65^6). This sounds pretty good, right?

Wrong. Over, say, a 5 minute mission, you will go through 10 cycles, each of which has a 92.4% chance of success. The odds of your ship remaining operational for the entire mission falls to only 45%. This is a 45% chance your actually WORKS for the duration of ONE mission. Failure is practically assured.

With only two, the odds are worse: Your ship will correctly cycle a measly 82% of the time. Your ship will successfully perform the mission only 13% of time.

Compared to these failure rates, the M-16 was a reliable and trustworthy weapon. I tried this build once. It broke down in the middle of the mission. Never again.

twoblindmonks

doffingcomrade wrote: »

DCEs are extremely unreliable. Consider the facts: Each DCE has a 35% chance of doing its job. In a 30-second cycle of 2xETPxen, you need at least one proc, of which you get 6 attempts. This means that each one has a 65% chance of failure, which means that the chance you will successfully cycle your ship once is 92.4% (1 - 0.65^6). This sounds pretty good, right?

Wrong. Over, say, a 5 minute mission, you will go through 10 cycles, each of which has a 92.4% chance of success. The odds of your ship remaining operational for the entire mission falls to only 45%. This is a 45% chance your actually WORKS for the duration of ONE mission. Failure is practically assured.

With only two, the odds are worse: Your ship will correctly cycle a measly 82% of the time. Your ship will successfully perform the mission only 13% of time.

Compared to these failure rates, the M-16 was a reliable and trustworthy weapon. I tried this build once. It broke down in the middle of the mission. Never again.

Well, you aren't using 100% uptime on powers, when downtime occurs, the chain resets and your percentage goes up. Also, your probability theory is a bit off. I have around a 92% chance, during each cycle, for the cooldown to be reduced to global. That is so high that it almost always happens. I very rarely have the proc not go off before the buff falls off. Even in the rare occasion when it doesn't proc, it doesn't gimp the whole build. The benefit you get from 92% uptime (as it would average out to be) on both power abilities outweighs the 8% of the time it will fail and your one buff will fall off for a whole *gasp* 15 seconds. Meh. It's a good use of 2 doff slots if you really don't want to go A2B.

bitemepwe

Just as many pissed off farmers complained about being BO double tapped to bring that change about as well as PvPers.
Just saying.

doffingcomrade

twoblindmonks wrote: »

Also, your probability theory is a bit off. I have around a 92% chance, during each cycle, for the cooldown to be reduced to global.

Isn't this exactly what I said? So, no, my probability isn't off. The problem lies in the fact that your mission lasts longer than one 30-second cycle. The ship must not only work for one cycle: It must work for the entire mission. And, as mentioned, over a 5 minute mission, your ship is going to fail more than half the time, which, in practical field conditions, translates to an over 90% failure rate, because, as anyone can tell you, in field conditions, if something has a 50% chance to work, then it has a 90% chance to fail.

rodentmaster

I'm sorry but that's just pure BS.

I use it ALL the time, EVERY time, and it's up over 90% of the time even in long durations. You're either not very observant or you're so caught up in proving your own math theories you don't care about the actual results.


Actual results: IT WORKS! And works great!

generator88

No, his numbers are right, 0.92^10=~0.43; the odds are with it not triggering at some point in the course of 5 minutes. The difference being that where some of us (myself included) might be inclined to say "Ehh, close enough for rock 'n roll," he wants something more airtight.

doffingcomrade

rodentmaster wrote: »

I use it ALL the time, EVERY time, and it's up over 90% of the time even in long durations. You're either not very observant or you're so caught up in proving your own math theories you don't care about the actual results.

Actually, I'm quite observant. I ran this during CE, and guess what? IT FAILED. It was quite apparent when my ship suddenly screeched to a dead halt due to engine failure, since on an EPTE boat, an EPTE failure is functionally equivalent to not moving. This caused me to look at this matter much more closely, and when I ran the numbers, I confirmed exactly what field experience just taught me: That it's an unreliable piece of TRIBBLE.

And you're claiming you've NEVER observed it to fail on you in the middle of a mission?

generator88 wrote: »

he wants something more airtight.

Of course it's supposed to be airtight. It's a fricken' spaceship. If it wasn't airight, EVERYONE DIES.

rodentmaster

LOL... riiiiiight. So never mind that the tholians in CCE disable subsystems like mad, and have torps that can stop you in your tracks, but you blame it on the doffs?


Tell you what: Sit in orbit around ESD and just hit your keybind to constantly cycle them. Do it for 5 minutes and count how many times you have to wait that extra 15 seconds. It will only be 3-4 times in a 5 minute span.

Just because you slowed down doesn't mean the EPT chain failed. The skill can trigger and you can STILL be slowed/stopped.


EDIT: Do it properly. Don't break the chain. Hit one of your 2 EPTs instantly whenever it's available like if you have them on your "spam bind" power tray.

alsayyid

Running the risk of being flamed, I will share my build. I went for what I found fun for what and how I play.

I fly a Mogh, non fleet version hopefully one day I can change that, with a plasma DHC setup. I use the romulan plasma torps and have the DOFFs to chain them. And for giggles I fly up to things and let loose.

Sometimes I catch fire though...

doffingcomrade

rodentmaster wrote: »

LOL... riiiiiight. So never mind that the tholians in CCE disable subsystems like mad, and have torps that can stop you in your tracks, but you blame it on the doffs?

I know what Tholians look like and do, and what a system disable looks like. System disables have absolutely no effect on EPTx. In fact, EPTx is what FIXES system disables. Besides, Tholians troll by causing weapon failures, not shield/engine failures.

rodentmaster wrote: »

Tell you what: Sit in orbit around ESD and just hit your keybind to constantly cycle them. Do it for 5 minutes and count how many times you have to wait that extra 15 seconds. It will only be 3-4 times in a 5 minute span.

There you go, see? You just admitted you expect it to fail an average of 3-4 times in a mere short mission.

rodentmaster wrote: »

Just because you slowed down doesn't mean the EPT chain failed. The skill can trigger and you can STILL be slowed/stopped.

That's precisely what it means, though: The point of the chain is that you maintain both powers up. If one of these fails, the chain breaks, and your ship no longer works. If the engines fail, your ship stops dead in space, and you die. If the shields fail, your ship explodes, and you die. If you're particularly lucky, it's a shield failure that occurs between fighting. Any other failure either prevents you from getting to the action as your ship grinds to a dead halt in space, or gets you killed.

In any event, you can hardly say I wasn't observant: I did, in fact, specifically observe it, and immediately evaluated the ramifications of the problem. Concluding that it simply wasn't going to work, I have discarded the plan. I simply cannot afford to have critical systems that fail without even requiring enemy intervention.

baudl

3x DCE is "airtight" with 2x EPtX
even if it fails on the first attempt...15 sec later your second EPtX is ready. Chances are doubled within 1 cycle. Not 100%, sure but pretty damn close, and more than good enough to use it.

doffingcomrade

alsayyid wrote: »

Sometimes I catch fire though...

Setting yourself on fire intentionally is a handy way to activate GDF in a controlled manner that doesn't depend on enemies shooting your ship to bits.

baudl wrote: »

3x DCE is "airtight" with 2x EPtX
even if it fails on the first attempt...15 sec later your second EPtX is ready. Chances are doubled within 1 cycle. Not 100%, sure but pretty damn close, and more than good enough to use it.

Yeah, I calculated that out already. I'll repeat it for you: 92.4% chance that you will survive an entire two-EPTX cycle, based on 6 chances to proc with 3 DCEs and 2 powers, only one of which needs to trigger.

This sounds pretty good until you realize that over the course of one short mission, there's a less than 50% chance your ship will actually continue to operate through it, and that the longer the mission or service life of your ship gets, the chance of failure approaches 100%.

baudl

so what?
it's not that something world altering happens...you just have to wait 15 seconds more within a 5 minute timeframe?

srsly, for the average STF and PVP match that is an "airtight" mechanic.