What i'd like to see regarding torpedos, is the use of a limited amount.
Now, everyone can blare of TS upon TS. Lets say a ship only have access to 10 torpedos.
The autofire would not be used, unless to stupid to understand the consequence of firing off torpedos randomly. The TS would be the; "Yahrr! Their shield are down! Fire all tubes, naow!" A button Saved, savoured, and used with a much greater satisfaction, than zombiehitting it, and cursing the CD. Being conservative in the use of torpedos, a player could get in two TS, before the ship would be out of torps.
After a battle, the ship would be automagically be restocked, so no expenses to worry about, alternatively, torps must be bought. Afterall, they are in the shops. Lets use their purpose for this.
This way torpedos mayhaps become unnerfed, and sweetly powerful with a blast and some suger on top.
I'm always a fan of adding a little realism to the game. And this makes perfect sense. Though I don't use auto-fire for anything on my ship, I do find myself letting loose with torps right at the start of the battle, usually with little effect.
The whole torpedo alpha strike scenario you put up. I'm sorry, I thought that was assumed. I can't say that it really sounds like a good idea, especially since cannons and turrets already do this with devastating effect. I'm sorry if I was unclear.
It's something that I've been doing for 4-5 months or more...different variations, but along those lines.
edit: Heh, I went to record it - but not only did I forget to start the combatlog, not only did I botch starting the recorder, but I also forgot to fix the BOFF layout...will try again in an hour or so...lol.
Not quite imho. The slots give you opportunities to have fun with builds. I want that... but I have to... anyway.... No one forces you to use something, it's your ship after all, and you decide what you want on it.
I do like the Bridge Commander inspired ideas, though I have a gaming-world reservation:
Almost all change is resisted, and the more change, the more resistance.
Look at how much howling comes out whenever a game mechanic is changed already (especially from PVPers): from the beam buffs and the A2B spam (and the threat of nerf it probably deservedly faces) all the way back to the old reverse shield polarity spam (before it was nerfed to have a lot more downtime).
In games where too much is changed at once, it can very seriously harm the size and morale of the present population. An example of that: Star Wars Galaxies and its NGE. I won't join the "OMG PRE CU FTW" bandwagon there (pre-CU was a metagame nightmare outside of the powergamers exploiting it and Star Wars was nowhere to be found), but I do agree that NGE changed too much too fast without warning and a lot of it was done poorly and it damaged that game pretty badly.
So, short of STO's own NGE moment, the torpedo/launcher slot idea could be enough of a change without going Bridge Commander. I might like going all the way on this, but not enough that have played as long as they have may feel the same way (I've played this since beta, but I'm not everyone).
VD I don't think you're half as bad as you give yourself credit/stick for.
It would be interesting how your torp boat or mainly torp boat damage stacks up against all energy weapon ships but right now I see energy weapons slicing through shields and hull like it was made of...well like it was a KDF BoP, made of bad thoughts and tissue paper.
I don't think I've seen anyone doing good dps or even completing PvE quickly with torp boats. Not saying it's not possible but given that there's a dps option, sciencey effects and burst with beams should there not also be a dps option with torps?
VD I don't think you're half as bad as you give yourself credit/stick for.
It would be interesting how your torp boat or mainly torp boat damage stacks up against all energy weapon ships but right now I see energy weapons slicing through shields and hull like it was made of...well like it was a KDF BoP, made of bad thoughts and tissue paper.
I don't think I've seen anyone doing good dps or even completing PvE quickly with torp boats. Not saying it's not possible but given that there's a dps option, sciencey effects and burst with beams should there not also be a dps option with torps?
Torpedos travel too slow to be in a 20k or even 10k group. They can get to about 15k dps but won't be going to much higher then that
Yeah I asked in 20k and they said someone managed to get a torp boat atrox to 18k I think.
That's why I sorta say maybe energy weapons need a hull resistance slapped on the top like torps do against shields, even the playing field a bit, nerf the energy weapons a tad and encourage build diversity.
I mean no-one can deny hitting the silly ranges we are is good for the game even if it is awesome. The dps people will adapt and still get massive damage, just add a torp and torp spread but it would still bring down the energy weapon is king thing a little.
VD I don't think you're half as bad as you give yourself credit/stick for.
It would be interesting how your torp boat or mainly torp boat damage stacks up against all energy weapon ships but right now I see energy weapons slicing through shields and hull like it was made of...well like it was a KDF BoP, made of bad thoughts and tissue paper.
I don't think I've seen anyone doing good dps or even completing PvE quickly with torp boats. Not saying it's not possible but given that there's a dps option, sciencey effects and burst with beams should there not also be a dps option with torps?
Oh, don't get me wrong - I'm not trying to compare Torps to Energy...there's no contest in the end there. None in the least, lol. There are folks that might get ~20k DPS with help...but yeah, they're not going to be hitting Energy numbers.
My thing is that if five Engineers in RA Cruisers with TRIBBLE gear, with each doing ~2k DPS can finish ISE with the optional...that somebody doing 10-15-20k DPS in a Torp boat and somebody doing 30k+ DPS with Energy...is just kind of silly.
I don't believe that Torps need to be boosted up to that 30k+ range. I don't think anybody really needs to be at the 20k range, to be quite honest - given the content we've got - it's along the lines, imho, of somebody in another game at level 80 or 90 going back and running level 50 content while talking about their DPS. We're so massively overgeared, that the numbers we've got are ludicrous.
The other aspect is that folks keep making Torps out to be some sort of complete garbage - when you check their posts, the following is usually noticeable:
1) They talk about not spending any skill points for Projectiles.
2) They almost never talk about running PWO's.
3) They're more likely to have 4-5 Energy Tac Consoles for their rear Turrets than for their Torps.
4) They're not trying to group targets for additional damage that can be gained from splash.
5) They basically haven't even tried - and - have just written them off...
I used to run a nice sci torp boat and you can get some decent damage out of them, more so if we start using some of these specials like the graviton, subspace thingy and bunch stuff etc. Shame science is a bit underpowered ATM but w/e it compliments nicely with drains and disables.
So honestly if you could would you add energy damage resistance to hull?
I mean it would certainly curb some of the extreme damage were capable of with energy weapons at the very least. Even if I am one of those doing highish damage with energy weapons a bit of variation for max effect would be nice, would also help with 3rd ens tactical syndrome a bit.
First, a disclaimer. None of the following is the least bit exciting. The numbers are not amazing in the least. C'mon, the build's sporting 3x VR Mk XI Warheads (18.8%). It's not to show that this particular build pulls awesome numbers. It's my old PvP Support Build. It was just for dorking around.
Okay, so here's a crappy recording - literally, lol, it would have been funny had it recorded my cursing as my internet started to go to Hell...but hey, it's something I deal with - usually with expletives and sour looks from the girlfriend.
Before that though, an image gallery to go along with the crappy recording.
Basically, the main screen from ACT - the five screens for the players - the [Pet Spam] screen...and then the hardware for Willard's build, his BOFFs, and his DOFFs.
Now, when it comes to the DPS listed on the Main Screen image - well, since I was using Plasma...it's not right.
Explanation time for those that do not know. Certain torpedoes (and mines) are treated as pets, in a sense. I could dig up the dev post on it, but I'm too lazy. If somebody absolutely must have it, I can hunt it down if it is still there. It may have actually been on a deleted subforum from some testing thing.
But basically, there is a parent child relationship that exists with objects (yay, technical mumbojumbo).
You fire a normal torpedo or even an energy weapon, you remain the parent for the application of the Plasma DoT (child). The combatlog has no issue tracking that.
You fire a targetable torpedo and things are a little different. You're the parent and the torpedo is the child. The torpedo is also a parent for the Plasma DoT (child). For the torpedo (parent) to apply the DoT (child), well - it's destroyed. It no longer exists. The lineage path (yeah, I just made that up - I really should have gotten some more caffeine before typing this out) is broken by that. Because the PDoT's parent no longer exists, the system does not know that the PDoT is the "grandchild" of the person that fired the torpedo.
Tada, when you look at the raw parse - you'll see a line that has something like ,,,, (can't remember if it's 4 or 5 of those) instead of the name of the person that launched that particular attack. It just doesn't know who did it. Those end up under [Pet Spam] and you have to hunt them down.
So we do a quick check of what the other guys were doing...and...one of the guys had Scorpions and Rom Photonics. So it's possible that some of the PDoT damage from the [Pet Spam] may belong to them. Also, since it is a case of fighting the Borg - some of the PDoT damage might belong to them. Let's go take a look though, eh?
We'll start with what obviously should have been Willard's...
That would bump Willard's numbers to 2,608,082 damage - 7481.59 DPS
The next item that's obviously Willard's would be...
[Pet Spam]: Plasma Energy Bolt 18,047
Bumping Willard's numbers to 2,626,129 damage - 7533.36 DPS
And then we come to the difficult one, not knowing how much belongs to Willard and how much belongs to somebody else.
[Pet Spam]: Plasma Torpedo 443,106 damage
So between giving 0 to Willard and giving it all to Willard, we'd be looking at his actual numbers falling somewhere between...
2,626,129 damage - 7533.36 DPS
- and -
3,069,235 damage - 8804.46 DPS
It's something I wish they would track so folks could be sure, but in the end - how many folks actually parse, much less parse with projectiles, eh?
Heh, like I said with the disclaimer - nothing exciting...this might have been something for somebody with insomnia to read...to help them get to sleep, eh?
Just remembered, for those images - didn't have the Rep stuff.
And yes, that's Tovan. Like I said in an earlier post, only 3x Sub/Sup Op - still need to upgrade my Tacs.
So here, because I'm bored typing all of this and having quickly thrown the recording together...
A crappy ISE with Willard - with his crappy internet (some epic rubberbanding action, deja vu that photonic fleet for a day or two) - and his oddly crappy piloting style of kind of just going wheee without paying too much attention to what's going on...
If I may make a suggestion, ditch the assimilated module and move the dyson console into its place, then add an extra tac console. Especially with the new OP tactical consoles it will be better to have 4 of them as you're not exactly gaining much from OWA
Also funny you should say about insomnia, I'm in bed reading this and replying lol.
But yeah even if you attribute all the DoTs to Willard and considering the effort and expense put into the build I would be thinking that's good spike but still there isn't an answer to the dps thing. Even my common my X plasma beam scimitar did more dps with being all energy weapons, course it also died if the Borg even looked at it.
Like is say, make energy less effective against hull and we might see variety in builds without buffing torpedoes and they may even have some relevance in PvE.
Let's be realistic here. None of what we say here is going to happen. Cryptic is going to do what Cryptic is told to do by PWE and PWE is going to do what they think will get them the most return. They don't care about making a good game, they care about getting as many people as possible to keep buying ephemeral goods. So I see no issue with suggesting whatever drastic changes we like and having a discussion about it. We're just a bunch of nerds debating who has the best ideas. If anybody gets upset over what is said here, they are way too insecure and probably in need of an intervention.
So, I say let loose. Give us your most grand ideas. Let's see what crazy awesomeness people can come up with. Don't hold back because it might upset the status quo mob. They're zombies that will eat anything up if you tell them to buy it.
Go here and show your support for a better Foundry!
I read that other thread. It was basically an argument between the OP and two others. I posted in there asking a simple question. The entire thread was a huge dance around one simple point.
To me, it seemed that all the supporters of the addition of torpedo slots wanted was more dps. The rest was smokescreen.
Well put!
A torpedo launcher, by any other name, is still a torpedo launcher. It doesn't matter whether you call it a torpedo 'tube' (or simply a 'device') and stick it into a device slot: it will always be just an extra torpedo launcher.
A whole extra torp launcher, for a 'price' of not being to fit that second stack of batteries, yawn, that's a good deal: a bit too good, is the point.
P.S. The Dyson Proton Particle Stabilizer + the Gravimetric Photon Torpedo Launcher yields a +3.0% CrtH for *all* weapons. So, power-creep indeed, as with the extra, 'gratuitous' torpedo launcher, all you'd need is just the single Proton Particle Stabilizer for that massive extra CrtH.
If I may make a suggestion, ditch the assimilated module and move the dyson console into its place, then add an extra tac console. Especially with the new OP tactical consoles it will be better to have 4 of them as you're not exactly gaining much from OWA
Heh, I usually switch back and forth without the Omega Torp while slotting a TS1 in place of the HY1. The Borg module's always there though, for four of the five things it provides...
...with the Hull Repair for the ET1, AtS1, HE1, HE2; and the Grav Gens for the Grav Well, mini-Rifts, and Singularity Jump.
But yeah, it's definitely not an optimized DPS or even Spike Build. I had been looking at the Advanced Tac Consoles down the road, and it's a funny thing about the Generics and Specifics that I believe deserves to be mentioned again...
VR Mk XI -> UR Mk XII
Generic: 18.8% -> 27.9% (+9.1%)
Specific: 28.1% -> 31.9% (+3.8%)
VR Mk XII -> UR Mk XII
Generic: 20% -> 27.9% (+7.9%)
Specific: 30% -> 31.9% (+1.9%)
So even with just 3x, he'd be gaining +27.3% base damage by going with the Advanced...before that fun decision involving CrtD or CrtH.
That being said, though...
Pick up the two Tac Sub/Sup Op, get an E-Neut (+HullRep), start slotting Advanced Tacs...and yeah, that Borg module would likely be gone for the 4th Advanced Tac.
Also funny you should say about insomnia, I'm in bed reading this and replying lol.
Meh, reading that particular post - looking at how everything looked like it was put together half-asleep...yeah, maybe I should touch it up. Lol, maybe not - it was more of a "I need a break from leveling guys" thing.
But yeah even if you attribute all the DoTs to Willard and considering the effort and expense put into the build I would be thinking that's good spike but still there isn't an answer to the dps thing. Even my common my X plasma beam scimitar did more dps with being all energy weapons, course it also died if the Borg even looked at it.
Husanak would probably be a better source for a DPS build. There's also a guy in that Torp thread claiming a certain amount of DPS with a build...er...that I just don't see as possible. But yeah, Hus has been running Torps longer than I have - and - knows more about them in a DPS nature than me and my...hrmm, more of a strafing or leaving presents sort of mode of flying.
I don't like to sit still. DPS tends to mean sitting still...or what I would consider sitting still compared to how I fly.
I'll post a flaky failbuild at the end...not as a recommendation, but just a thought experiment.
Oh, as for dying if the Borg look at you? Nah, you've got to hull tank them like a bawss!
Like is say, make energy less effective against hull and we might see variety in builds without buffing torpedoes and they may even have some relevance in PvE.
Heh, Geko has mentioned wanting to nerf a few things - but he knows that that the backlash would be too much. That kind of nerf to Energy weapons...yeah, I just can't see them doing it.
I think that's part of the reason that we're where we're at. They can't really nerf certain things, so they buff other things. For the average player that doesn't min/max, it's fine - for the folks that do...yeah, we're where we're at.
Consoles
Tac - 4x Vulnerability Locator Mk XII [+PhP]
Eng - 2x E-Neut Mk XII [+HullRep],Proton Particle Stabilizer
Sci - Singularity Stabilizer, Plasma Destabilizer, Bioneural Infusion
Devices - SFM, Aux Batt
Other - Nimbus Pirate Distress Call
A shining example of why I don't give build advice and tend only to discuss how individual components/mechanics might work. I can't cook either...well, I can push the buttons on the microwave.
1) Have T2 Nukara Enhanced Shield Penetration apply to Torps as well.
2) Have the Singularity Overload do HY/TS as well.
3) Where are all the other Hybrid Torps?
Think the best thing might be to add it using the armour consoles, just make them all come with "reduces energy weapon damage by 25%" (does not stack) so everyone will be fitting them. Power creep it out and say you're adding it to NPCs in elite due to power creep.
Especially if you bring it in when the next rep comes out. Lol, power creeping things out. Ah this is funny.
By the way if you really want to see how bad it is with energy weapons send me a PM in game and I'll get a game going with 20k+ players....it's very shocking first time you see it.
Think the best thing might be to add it using the armour consoles, just make them all come with "reduces energy weapon damage by 25%" (does not stack) so everyone will be fitting them. Power creep it out and say you're adding it to NPCs in elite due to power creep.
Especially if you bring it in when the next rep comes out. Lol, power creeping things out. Ah this is funny.
Thing is...it would affect everybody. And there are a bunch of folks out there that are doing 2-3k and that's fine to get ISE done. You kill their DPS too...and...well...meh.
Much like there's DR on damage resistance...perhaps there needs to be a limit created for damage as well, thus creating a form of DR there. Yes, as soon as I post this - I'm going to barricade myself in from all the folks with pitchforks, torches, tar, feathers, and rope.
By the way if you really want to see how bad it is with energy weapons send me a PM in game and I'll get a game going with 20k+ players....it's very shocking first time you see it.
Heh, I've been in ISE's where there were two guys in the 20-25k range...left me feeling like I had my thumb up my...ahem. It's a world of difference between being the 15k guy where the other four are 1.6k if that. Course, I deleted that guy...deleted all my 50s outside of Willard (to be renamed at some point).
The extremes are extremes...and they're pretty extreme. Get some debuffs stacked, have the CrtH and CrtD up there, the amount of damage that starts happening is insane.
For example:
Let's say X is the normal damage.
We'll add APA3, Rombush, EPtW1. We're now at 1.85X.
Say we've got 200% CrtD. We're now at 5.55X.
Say we're looking at -50% DR. We're now at 8.214X.
That's without any FAW, BO, CSV, CRF or the like.
Odds are the 1.85X number is actually going to be higher because SAP's been boosted, which in turn is boosting APA3. Heck, didn't even add in TacFleet.
Odds are the 200% CrtD's going to be higher, thus the 5.55X is going to be even higher than because of the 1.85X being higher.
The stacked DR will be lower, so the 8.214X will be even higher - without taking into account it being higher because the 5.55X is higher and the 1.85X being higher.
Course, the X itself is being bumped, bumped, bumped...
...fun stuff. If it weren't a case of fighting weaker versions of mobs than we previously were.
True but then aren't a lot of people at the low end also using torps and mismatched/not optimised gear?
I guess you do have a point though about the bottom end. Perhaps we just need a diminishing returns on tactical console stacking and certainly on damage buffs. I know alpha strikers would get hit pretty hard by that but something does have to be done about the ludicrous damage levels we can get in game.
Something probably also needs to be done about the healing too if you believe half the complaints in the PvP forum.
In fact I thing this game in General would benefit a lot from diminishing returns, we have it with damage resistance but not with other stuff.
P.s. There's a world of difference between 1 or 2 high dpsers being there and having 4, as you know they just end up buffing each other to some very silly levels.
P.s. There's a world of difference between 1 or 2 high dpsers being there and having 4, as you know they just end up buffing each other to some very silly levels.
At some point, don't they just end up tripping over each other and adversely affecting their DPS? Can't DPS if the targets are already dead...heh.
Er yeah sorta, having said that it's truly awesome seeing the whole cube and probes in Cure Space Elite just die in less than 30s. Essentially what actually affects you more is speed, if you can't all move fast enough to keep up with your dps and everyone else you lose out a lot.
Which has led to the 2-1-2 formation of doing it in the 20k channel.
You may have your dedicated torpedo slot if one of your existing forward weapon slots is reserved for it. Yes, that means you give up a DHC/DBB/BA/etc. And my opinion has nothing at all to do with the fact that this is how I load my ships out already, or that I find "all energy weapon" builds to be boring and unimaginative.
Come to think of it, I wouldn't mind seeing something similar happen with the aft weapon slots. With the possible difference being that the dedicated slot in the rear also allowed mines. A "warhead" slot, or something. This would require me to adjust a bit, but it would also help kill the plague of cookie-cutter builds, which is a good thing.
But if you're going to do this, you also need to address the problem of "1% sliver of a facing shield blocks 90% of torpedo damage".
Er yeah sorta, having said that it's truly awesome seeing the whole cube and probes in Cure Space Elite just die in less than 30s. Essentially what actually affects you more is speed, if you can't all move fast enough to keep up with your dps and everyone else you lose out a lot.
Which has led to the 2-1-2 formation of doing it in the 20k channel.
Heh, it's kind of funny that you mention that - cause it is something that's often overlooked in regard to how damage has increased in so many discussions. With the various buffs/fixes to movement, they've increased the ability for folks to get on target and have less downtime on their DPS...
also need to address the problem of "1% sliver of a facing shield blocks 90% of torpedo damage".
Say we go with a VR Mk XII Quantum Torp w/ 4x VR Mk XII Quantum Chambers, 9 Weapon Training, and 9 Projectile Weapons...nothing else, no buffs, no other gear, no other anything.
It should be ~6716 DPV.
Say we've got the unlikely scenario of a resilient shield having exactly 10000 health. The person is running 125 Shield Power and has EPtW1 active.
Say that shield is down to 1% as the Quantum Torp hits it. 100 shield health.
First...we deal with the bleed aspect.
6716 * 0.05 goes to the hull. 335.8 damage to the hull to meet whatever resistances are waiting for it there.
6716 * 0.95 goes to the shields. Wait, why 95%? Because 95% of the damage hits resilient shields...if it's kinetic. If it's energy, 90% hits and 5% disappears off into the ether. 6380.2 damage to the shields to meet our waiting damage reduction there.
Second...we're looking at the innate 75% kinetic damage reduction that shields have.
6380.2 * 0.25 will be the damage after that reduction. 1595.05 damage remains after the innate damage reduction.
Third...we'll hit up the damage reduction from the 125 Shield Power and EPtW1.
125 Shield Power provides 35% damage reduction. EPtW1 provides 30% damage reduction. That does not mean we have 65% damage reduction. Math doesn't work that way. 1 - ((1 - 0.35) * (1 - 0.3)) = 1 - (0.65 * 0.7) = 1 - 0.455 = 0.545 = 54.5% damage reduction. 45.5% damage done.
1595.05 * 0.455 = 725.74775 will be the damage after that reduction.
725.7 is higher than 100. This is where the curious debate tends to arise about the actual damage that is passed on to the hull. Is it 625.7 damage?
Is it instead...
100 shield health...183.5 effective shield health, taking into account the 125 Shield Power and EPtW1. 733.9 effective shield health vs. kinetic if we take into account the innate kinetic resist as well. So is the damage done to hull instead then 6380.2 - 733.9 = 5646.3 damage?
For the life of me, I can't remember and I no longer have the second account where I could test it.
That being said, imho...
If it's 625.7 damage...it should be 5646.3 damage instead. If it's 5646.3 damage, well - it's fine then.
1) Have T2 Nukara Enhanced Shield Penetration apply to Torps as well.
2) Have the Singularity Overload do HY/TS as well.
3) Where are all the other Hybrid Torps?
I totally agree with number 3. We've got so many hybrid energy weapons, so why not some variety in torps, or even mines? They've even done up those transphasic-chroniton torps already, but only in white.
Hmm, have to wonder if they're making purple versions for a Voth doff pack or something.
As for number 2, it kinda got me wondering about incorporating unlocking torpedo GCD for a short period of time in the form of a boff ability or console, with a long cooldown, of course. Possibly at the cost of disabling weapons or reducing accuracy. Or even a charge-up time like the MACO graviton beam and a narrow arc.
Or maybe an ability similar to high yield that ripple-fires all your launchers once each in rapid succession? Like where high yield launches 4 torps, this ability launches 4 torps, with proportion according to launchers equipped e.g. 2 launchers, 2 torps from each or 3 launchers, 1 from each plus 1 random.
Man, there's so many ways to make torps pretty interesting. But hmm......a lot of these suggestions might worsen that spike factor you mentioned.
On a side note, now that I think about it, the Hargh'peng torp doesn't seem to have the travel time issues other torps have - would be nice if that could be retrofitted onto the others.
VD did you also take into account the curious thing about kinetic weapons and shields?
As in if it does enough damage to have brought down the shield facing then the damage goes straight to hull bypassing the shield. So it may even be 6716 to hull then factoring whatever resists there are there.
VD did you also take into account the curious thing about kinetic weapons and shields?
As in if it does enough damage to have brought down the shield facing then the damage goes straight to hull bypassing the shield. So it may even be 6716 to hull then factoring whatever resists there are there.
Heh, like I said - couldn't remember how it worked...that's a quirky possibility as well.
I started to post a reply in the Sax thread...cause, I don't necessarily agree with a lot of what's been said in regard to overcapping out there - but I honestly don't know enough about how EPS works, because I never bothered with it...so I didn't post the reply.
The following is as far as I had gotten when I gave up...
this post is kinda like misleading, it tells that you have 150 weapon power and that your drain is coming from 150 and not 125, truth is that eps will regenerate from overcapped power, it's not automaticly applied.
Let's make a fictional example of fictional weapons, you have a beam array that does 100 damage at 100 power, weapon power cap in this fictional instance is 100, each weapon power gives 1% damage, so 99 weapon power is 99% damage = 99 damage. That beam array drains -50 weapons when it is firing. it shoots 4 pulses over 4 seconds. which is the duration of the attack, which after it has 2 second cooling time(which doesn't have anything to do with anything)
I will fire my beam array with 100 weapon power, it will drain 50 power and it will deal damage to enemy target in this way:
0.5 sec activation of flight time and animation ending of first beam
50 damage with first pulse
after a second it fires another pulse for 50 damage,
after a second it fires another pulse for 50 damage,
after a second it fires another pulse for 50 damage,
0.5 sec pause
50 weapon power is applied back instantly due to the weapon not draining
how overcapping works is... or EPS that is, if your power transfer rate is 25 power per second and you have 150 weapon power aka 100/100 the cycle will look something like this
0.5 sec activation of flight time and animation ending of first beam
50 damage with first pulse
after a second it fires another pulse for 75 damage,
after a second it fires another pulse for 100 damage,
after a second it fires another pulse for 100 damage,
0.5 sec pause
50 weapon power is applied back instantly due to the weapon not draining(to the overcapping value)
if your power transfer rate is 25 power per second and you have 125 weapon power aka 100/100 the cycle will look something like this.
0.5 sec activation of flight time and animation ending of first beam
50 damage with first pulse
after a second it fires another pulse for 75 damage,
after a second it fires another pulse for 75 damage,
after a second it fires another pulse for 75 damage,
0.5 sec pause
50 weapon power is applied back instantly due to the weapon not draining(to the overcapping value)
So in theory improving both, weapon power and EPS is gonna boost your damage(since EPS draws from overcap and overcap is only there to give something to add into your weapon power)
This is basically how it works, but the numbers are different in terms of damage, boost per weapon power, maxium power etc. I used beam as a good example but remember that you can overcap with DHC and turrets aswell, and single cannons, and dual beam banks, so remember this http://imgur.com/8bxJY5u
the arrow shows how many seconds you have to overcap using EPS with each weapon type, yes dual cannons can overcap better than dhcs can.... but beam arrays and dual beam banks are 2 times more effective than turrets and 4 times more effective than DHCs are. Remember that using CRF with DHC will lower the EPS efficiency from 1 second to 0.6 seconds(around 40% efficiency loss with all weapons). CSV does not change the values. BFAW does not change the time either.
And remember that this is STILL A THEORY but we have proof supporting it. it's still unkown(UNTESTED) if eps console is more dps than tachyokinetic console is(BUT IT IS DPS).
Hrmm, we can actually play with real numbers...some real basic numbers, but real numbers all the same.
Say we've got a Mk X Common Beam Array, 9 Weapons Training, 9 Energy Weapons, and that's that. Heh, basic numbers - easier to deal with, eh? So the damage we're looking at before Weapon Power would be ~313.9 DPV. If we hit that up with 125 Weapon Power, then we're looking at ~784.8 DPV (yeah, there was some rounding here and there that ended up favoring going to .8 instead of .7, but trying to keep it simple).
It's a single weapon, there's no drain, it has a 4/5 RoF. So we fire it and...
...first thing we should note is if we've been doing DPS calcs at a 4/5 RoF, we've been doing it wrong. I admit it, I tend to do it wrong for Energy even though I do it right for Kinetic.
It's not really a 5s period. It's a 5.3-5.8s period that averages out to ~5.5s period.
For example:
14:01:06:11:28:27.3
14:01:06:11:28:28.3
14:01:06:11:28:29.3
14:01:06:11:28:30.4 2.4s gap 14:01:06:11:28:32.8
14:01:06:11:28:33.8
14:01:06:11:28:34.8
14:01:06:11:28:35.9 2.3s gap 14:01:06:11:28:38.2
14:01:06:11:28:39.2
14:01:06:11:28:40.2
14:01:06:11:28:41.3 2.8s gap 14:01:06:11:28:44.1
14:01:06:11:28:45.2
14:01:06:11:28:46.1
14:01:06:11:28:47.2 2.3s gap 14:01:06:11:28:49.5
14:01:06:11:28:50.5
14:01:06:11:28:51.6
14:01:06:11:28:52.6 2.3s gap 14:01:06:11:28:54.9
14:01:06:11:28:55.9
14:01:06:11:28:57.0
14:01:06:11:28:58.0 2.6s gap 14:01:06:11:29:00.6
14:01:06:11:29:01.6
14:01:06:11:29:02.7
14:01:06:11:29:03.7 2.3s gap 14:01:06:11:29:06.0
Heck, even the 1s between pulses isn't always 1s. There are some examples up there of it being 1.1s. I've seen it being 0.9s. It averages out to be 1s though.
It raises the question of where the ~0.5s comes in, eh? At the start of the cycle or at the end of the cycle? Is there ~1.5s before the first shot is fired or is there just ~2.5s before the sixth shot is fired? Heck, is it ~1.25s before and after? Fun stuff, eh? Let's slap it at the end for now (even though that could be wrong, it's not necessarily wrong - because it would only be wrong for the very first shot...after that, it's just between the last in a cycle and the first)...
Now, during that 1.5s Recharge/Mystery Time...based on our EPS Rate, we should get Weapon Power back, right? 9.95/s is a standard amount, eh? 9 in SEPS, base 5, 9.95/s...usually seen as 10/s, eh?
So in firing two Arrays, we should drop by 10 after the first shot because of firing the second array - but we should bounce up by 10 during that ~1.5s at the end.
This suggests though, that if we had eight arrays...the following would happen.
125 Weapon Power to start.
Fire 8x Arrays, drops Weapon Power to 55.
We gain 15 power at the end of the cycle to take us to 70.
Fire 8x Arrays, drops to 0.
We gain...
Wait, that doesn't happen...does it?
Yeah, EPS and me? Meh...it's why I tend just to shoot for 180-190+ overcap with 6-7 beams and rarely ever drop below the 125 Weapon Power in the first place to worry about it. Might drop to 119, 109...but it's back in the blink of an eye.
Oh nifty, for some reason the OP's thread (not the tube OP, but the OP of the thread that was here in Builds) was merged with the tube thread...the OP's thread which was about many things, not just torps - is now a torp thread...so how much of everything we've posted is now off-topic - having been merged with the other thread? Meh...
Comments
I'm always a fan of adding a little realism to the game. And this makes perfect sense. Though I don't use auto-fire for anything on my ship, I do find myself letting loose with torps right at the start of the battle, usually with little effect.
This bit?
It's something that I've been doing for 4-5 months or more...different variations, but along those lines.
edit: Heh, I went to record it - but not only did I forget to start the combatlog, not only did I botch starting the recorder, but I also forgot to fix the BOFF layout...will try again in an hour or so...lol.
Almost all change is resisted, and the more change, the more resistance.
Look at how much howling comes out whenever a game mechanic is changed already (especially from PVPers): from the beam buffs and the A2B spam (and the threat of nerf it probably deservedly faces) all the way back to the old reverse shield polarity spam (before it was nerfed to have a lot more downtime).
In games where too much is changed at once, it can very seriously harm the size and morale of the present population. An example of that: Star Wars Galaxies and its NGE. I won't join the "OMG PRE CU FTW" bandwagon there (pre-CU was a metagame nightmare outside of the powergamers exploiting it and Star Wars was nowhere to be found), but I do agree that NGE changed too much too fast without warning and a lot of it was done poorly and it damaged that game pretty badly.
So, short of STO's own NGE moment, the torpedo/launcher slot idea could be enough of a change without going Bridge Commander. I might like going all the way on this, but not enough that have played as long as they have may feel the same way (I've played this since beta, but I'm not everyone).
It would be interesting how your torp boat or mainly torp boat damage stacks up against all energy weapon ships but right now I see energy weapons slicing through shields and hull like it was made of...well like it was a KDF BoP, made of bad thoughts and tissue paper.
I don't think I've seen anyone doing good dps or even completing PvE quickly with torp boats. Not saying it's not possible but given that there's a dps option, sciencey effects and burst with beams should there not also be a dps option with torps?
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
Torpedos travel too slow to be in a 20k or even 10k group. They can get to about 15k dps but won't be going to much higher then that
My PvE/PvP hybrid skill tree
That's why I sorta say maybe energy weapons need a hull resistance slapped on the top like torps do against shields, even the playing field a bit, nerf the energy weapons a tad and encourage build diversity.
I mean no-one can deny hitting the silly ranges we are is good for the game even if it is awesome. The dps people will adapt and still get massive damage, just add a torp and torp spread but it would still bring down the energy weapon is king thing a little.
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
Oh, don't get me wrong - I'm not trying to compare Torps to Energy...there's no contest in the end there. None in the least, lol. There are folks that might get ~20k DPS with help...but yeah, they're not going to be hitting Energy numbers.
My thing is that if five Engineers in RA Cruisers with TRIBBLE gear, with each doing ~2k DPS can finish ISE with the optional...that somebody doing 10-15-20k DPS in a Torp boat and somebody doing 30k+ DPS with Energy...is just kind of silly.
I don't believe that Torps need to be boosted up to that 30k+ range. I don't think anybody really needs to be at the 20k range, to be quite honest - given the content we've got - it's along the lines, imho, of somebody in another game at level 80 or 90 going back and running level 50 content while talking about their DPS. We're so massively overgeared, that the numbers we've got are ludicrous.
The other aspect is that folks keep making Torps out to be some sort of complete garbage - when you check their posts, the following is usually noticeable:
1) They talk about not spending any skill points for Projectiles.
2) They almost never talk about running PWO's.
3) They're more likely to have 4-5 Energy Tac Consoles for their rear Turrets than for their Torps.
4) They're not trying to group targets for additional damage that can be gained from splash.
5) They basically haven't even tried - and - have just written them off...
I used to run a nice sci torp boat and you can get some decent damage out of them, more so if we start using some of these specials like the graviton, subspace thingy and bunch stuff etc. Shame science is a bit underpowered ATM but w/e it compliments nicely with drains and disables.
So honestly if you could would you add energy damage resistance to hull?
I mean it would certainly curb some of the extreme damage were capable of with energy weapons at the very least. Even if I am one of those doing highish damage with energy weapons a bit of variation for max effect would be nice, would also help with 3rd ens tactical syndrome a bit.
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
Okay, so here's a crappy recording - literally, lol, it would have been funny had it recorded my cursing as my internet started to go to Hell...but hey, it's something I deal with - usually with expletives and sour looks from the girlfriend.
Before that though, an image gallery to go along with the crappy recording.
http://imgur.com/a/VGQD1#0
Basically, the main screen from ACT - the five screens for the players - the [Pet Spam] screen...and then the hardware for Willard's build, his BOFFs, and his DOFFs.
Now, when it comes to the DPS listed on the Main Screen image - well, since I was using Plasma...it's not right.
Explanation time for those that do not know. Certain torpedoes (and mines) are treated as pets, in a sense. I could dig up the dev post on it, but I'm too lazy. If somebody absolutely must have it, I can hunt it down if it is still there. It may have actually been on a deleted subforum from some testing thing.
But basically, there is a parent child relationship that exists with objects (yay, technical mumbojumbo).
You fire a normal torpedo or even an energy weapon, you remain the parent for the application of the Plasma DoT (child). The combatlog has no issue tracking that.
You fire a targetable torpedo and things are a little different. You're the parent and the torpedo is the child. The torpedo is also a parent for the Plasma DoT (child). For the torpedo (parent) to apply the DoT (child), well - it's destroyed. It no longer exists. The lineage path (yeah, I just made that up - I really should have gotten some more caffeine before typing this out) is broken by that. Because the PDoT's parent no longer exists, the system does not know that the PDoT is the "grandchild" of the person that fired the torpedo.
Tada, when you look at the raw parse - you'll see a line that has something like ,,,, (can't remember if it's 4 or 5 of those) instead of the name of the person that launched that particular attack. It just doesn't know who did it. Those end up under [Pet Spam] and you have to hunt them down.
So let's look at Willard's numbers, eh?
2,488,175 damage - 7,137.62 DPS (~348.6s duration)
So we do a quick check of what the other guys were doing...and...one of the guys had Scorpions and Rom Photonics. So it's possible that some of the PDoT damage from the [Pet Spam] may belong to them. Also, since it is a case of fighting the Borg - some of the PDoT damage might belong to them. Let's go take a look though, eh?
We'll start with what obviously should have been Willard's...
[Pet Spam]: Destabilized Plasma Torpedo 119,907 damage
That would bump Willard's numbers to 2,608,082 damage - 7481.59 DPS
The next item that's obviously Willard's would be...
[Pet Spam]: Plasma Energy Bolt 18,047
Bumping Willard's numbers to 2,626,129 damage - 7533.36 DPS
And then we come to the difficult one, not knowing how much belongs to Willard and how much belongs to somebody else.
[Pet Spam]: Plasma Torpedo 443,106 damage
So between giving 0 to Willard and giving it all to Willard, we'd be looking at his actual numbers falling somewhere between...
2,626,129 damage - 7533.36 DPS
- and -
3,069,235 damage - 8804.46 DPS
It's something I wish they would track so folks could be sure, but in the end - how many folks actually parse, much less parse with projectiles, eh?
Heh, like I said with the disclaimer - nothing exciting...this might have been something for somebody with insomnia to read...to help them get to sleep, eh?
Just remembered, for those images - didn't have the Rep stuff.
Dyson - Advanced Targeting Systems, Tactical Advantage
New Rom - Precision, Sensor Targeting Assault, Quantum Singularity Manipulation
Nukara - Fortified Hull, Auxiliary Power Configuration - Offense, Refracting Tetryon Cascade
Omega - Omega Weapon Training, Omega Graviton Amplifier
And yes, that's Tovan. Like I said in an earlier post, only 3x Sub/Sup Op - still need to upgrade my Tacs.
So here, because I'm bored typing all of this and having quickly thrown the recording together...
A crappy ISE with Willard - with his crappy internet (some epic rubberbanding action, deja vu that photonic fleet for a day or two) - and his oddly crappy piloting style of kind of just going wheee without paying too much attention to what's going on...
~6:58 in duration: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuhjiqc2EXk
So yeah, if somebody was running an optimal build, fully geared, and flying like they had a clue...oh well, eh?
TLDR: They call it cheesecake, but it's like pie!
Also funny you should say about insomnia, I'm in bed reading this and replying lol.
But yeah even if you attribute all the DoTs to Willard and considering the effort and expense put into the build I would be thinking that's good spike but still there isn't an answer to the dps thing. Even my common my X plasma beam scimitar did more dps with being all energy weapons, course it also died if the Borg even looked at it.
Like is say, make energy less effective against hull and we might see variety in builds without buffing torpedoes and they may even have some relevance in PvE.
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
So, I say let loose. Give us your most grand ideas. Let's see what crazy awesomeness people can come up with. Don't hold back because it might upset the status quo mob. They're zombies that will eat anything up if you tell them to buy it.
Well put!
A torpedo launcher, by any other name, is still a torpedo launcher. It doesn't matter whether you call it a torpedo 'tube' (or simply a 'device') and stick it into a device slot: it will always be just an extra torpedo launcher.
A whole extra torp launcher, for a 'price' of not being to fit that second stack of batteries, yawn, that's a good deal: a bit too good, is the point.
P.S. The Dyson Proton Particle Stabilizer + the Gravimetric Photon Torpedo Launcher yields a +3.0% CrtH for *all* weapons. So, power-creep indeed, as with the extra, 'gratuitous' torpedo launcher, all you'd need is just the single Proton Particle Stabilizer for that massive extra CrtH.
Heh, I usually switch back and forth without the Omega Torp while slotting a TS1 in place of the HY1. The Borg module's always there though, for four of the five things it provides...
+0.92% Critical Chance
+9.2% Critical Severity
+5 Weapon Power Setting
+5.1 Starship Hull Repair
+23 Starship Graviton Generators
...with the Hull Repair for the ET1, AtS1, HE1, HE2; and the Grav Gens for the Grav Well, mini-Rifts, and Singularity Jump.
But yeah, it's definitely not an optimized DPS or even Spike Build. I had been looking at the Advanced Tac Consoles down the road, and it's a funny thing about the Generics and Specifics that I believe deserves to be mentioned again...
VR Mk XI -> UR Mk XII
Generic: 18.8% -> 27.9% (+9.1%)
Specific: 28.1% -> 31.9% (+3.8%)
VR Mk XII -> UR Mk XII
Generic: 20% -> 27.9% (+7.9%)
Specific: 30% -> 31.9% (+1.9%)
So even with just 3x, he'd be gaining +27.3% base damage by going with the Advanced...before that fun decision involving CrtD or CrtH.
That being said, though...
Pick up the two Tac Sub/Sup Op, get an E-Neut (+HullRep), start slotting Advanced Tacs...and yeah, that Borg module would likely be gone for the 4th Advanced Tac.
Meh, reading that particular post - looking at how everything looked like it was put together half-asleep...yeah, maybe I should touch it up. Lol, maybe not - it was more of a "I need a break from leveling guys" thing.
Husanak would probably be a better source for a DPS build. There's also a guy in that Torp thread claiming a certain amount of DPS with a build...er...that I just don't see as possible. But yeah, Hus has been running Torps longer than I have - and - knows more about them in a DPS nature than me and my...hrmm, more of a strafing or leaving presents sort of mode of flying.
I don't like to sit still. DPS tends to mean sitting still...or what I would consider sitting still compared to how I fly.
I'll post a flaky failbuild at the end...not as a recommendation, but just a thought experiment.
Oh, as for dying if the Borg look at you? Nah, you've got to hull tank them like a bawss!
Heh, Geko has mentioned wanting to nerf a few things - but he knows that that the backlash would be too much. That kind of nerf to Energy weapons...yeah, I just can't see them doing it.
I think that's part of the reason that we're where we're at. They can't really nerf certain things, so they buff other things. For the average player that doesn't min/max, it's fine - for the folks that do...yeah, we're where we're at.
Fleet T'varo w/ Romulan Tac
Traits - Subterfuge, Covert Operative, Singularity Specialist, Crippling Fire, Last Ditch Effort, Inspirational Leader, Accurate, Elusive, Warp Theorist
Reputation
Dyson - Advanced Targeting Systems, Tactical Advantage
New Rom - Precision, Emergency Secondary Shielding, Quantum Singularity Manipulation
Nukara - Enhanced Shield Penetration, Auxiliary Power Configuration - Offense, Refracting Tetryon Cascade
Omega - Omega Weapon Training, Omega Graviton Amplifier
BO1, CRF1/CSV1, TS3, APO3
TT1
EPtW1, AtB1, DEM2
EPtS1, AtB1
PH1, HE2
(5x Rom Sub/Sup Op)
DOFFs - 2x Tech(AtB), 2x PWO(Torp), WCE(Cleanse), EWO(BO+Pen)
Deflector - Borg Mk XII
Engine - Borg Mk XII
Shield - AKHG Mk XII
Core - Elite Reinforced Singularity Mk XII [PG][Wave][SCap][AMP][SST]
Weapons
Fore - Experimental Proton Weapon, Gravimetric Photon Torpedo, 2x Photon Torpedo Mk XII [CrtD]x3
Aft - 3x Nanite Disruptor Turret Mk XII [Acc]x2
Consoles
Tac - 4x Vulnerability Locator Mk XII [+PhP]
Eng - 2x E-Neut Mk XII [+HullRep], Proton Particle Stabilizer
Sci - Singularity Stabilizer, Plasma Destabilizer, Bioneural Infusion
Devices - SFM, Aux Batt
Other - Nimbus Pirate Distress Call
A shining example of why I don't give build advice and tend only to discuss how individual components/mechanics might work. I can't cook either...well, I can push the buttons on the microwave.
1) Have T2 Nukara Enhanced Shield Penetration apply to Torps as well.
2) Have the Singularity Overload do HY/TS as well.
3) Where are all the other Hybrid Torps?
Especially if you bring it in when the next rep comes out. Lol, power creeping things out. Ah this is funny.
By the way if you really want to see how bad it is with energy weapons send me a PM in game and I'll get a game going with 20k+ players....it's very shocking first time you see it.
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
Thing is...it would affect everybody. And there are a bunch of folks out there that are doing 2-3k and that's fine to get ISE done. You kill their DPS too...and...well...meh.
Much like there's DR on damage resistance...perhaps there needs to be a limit created for damage as well, thus creating a form of DR there. Yes, as soon as I post this - I'm going to barricade myself in from all the folks with pitchforks, torches, tar, feathers, and rope.
Heh, I've been in ISE's where there were two guys in the 20-25k range...left me feeling like I had my thumb up my...ahem. It's a world of difference between being the 15k guy where the other four are 1.6k if that. Course, I deleted that guy...deleted all my 50s outside of Willard (to be renamed at some point).
The extremes are extremes...and they're pretty extreme. Get some debuffs stacked, have the CrtH and CrtD up there, the amount of damage that starts happening is insane.
For example:
Let's say X is the normal damage.
We'll add APA3, Rombush, EPtW1. We're now at 1.85X.
Say we've got 200% CrtD. We're now at 5.55X.
Say we're looking at -50% DR. We're now at 8.214X.
That's without any FAW, BO, CSV, CRF or the like.
Odds are the 1.85X number is actually going to be higher because SAP's been boosted, which in turn is boosting APA3. Heck, didn't even add in TacFleet.
Odds are the 200% CrtD's going to be higher, thus the 5.55X is going to be even higher than because of the 1.85X being higher.
The stacked DR will be lower, so the 8.214X will be even higher - without taking into account it being higher because the 5.55X is higher and the 1.85X being higher.
Course, the X itself is being bumped, bumped, bumped...
...fun stuff. If it weren't a case of fighting weaker versions of mobs than we previously were.
I guess you do have a point though about the bottom end. Perhaps we just need a diminishing returns on tactical console stacking and certainly on damage buffs. I know alpha strikers would get hit pretty hard by that but something does have to be done about the ludicrous damage levels we can get in game.
Something probably also needs to be done about the healing too if you believe half the complaints in the PvP forum.
In fact I thing this game in General would benefit a lot from diminishing returns, we have it with damage resistance but not with other stuff.
P.s. There's a world of difference between 1 or 2 high dpsers being there and having 4, as you know they just end up buffing each other to some very silly levels.
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
It's yo-yo extremes and procs, imho.
It's gone beyond skill...to gimmicks.
At some point, don't they just end up tripping over each other and adversely affecting their DPS? Can't DPS if the targets are already dead...heh.
Which has led to the 2-1-2 formation of doing it in the 20k channel.
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
Come to think of it, I wouldn't mind seeing something similar happen with the aft weapon slots. With the possible difference being that the dedicated slot in the rear also allowed mines. A "warhead" slot, or something. This would require me to adjust a bit, but it would also help kill the plague of cookie-cutter builds, which is a good thing.
But if you're going to do this, you also need to address the problem of "1% sliver of a facing shield blocks 90% of torpedo damage".
Heh, it's kind of funny that you mention that - cause it is something that's often overlooked in regard to how damage has increased in so many discussions. With the various buffs/fixes to movement, they've increased the ability for folks to get on target and have less downtime on their DPS...
Say we go with a VR Mk XII Quantum Torp w/ 4x VR Mk XII Quantum Chambers, 9 Weapon Training, and 9 Projectile Weapons...nothing else, no buffs, no other gear, no other anything.
It should be ~6716 DPV.
Say we've got the unlikely scenario of a resilient shield having exactly 10000 health. The person is running 125 Shield Power and has EPtW1 active.
Say that shield is down to 1% as the Quantum Torp hits it. 100 shield health.
First...we deal with the bleed aspect.
6716 * 0.05 goes to the hull. 335.8 damage to the hull to meet whatever resistances are waiting for it there.
6716 * 0.95 goes to the shields. Wait, why 95%? Because 95% of the damage hits resilient shields...if it's kinetic. If it's energy, 90% hits and 5% disappears off into the ether. 6380.2 damage to the shields to meet our waiting damage reduction there.
Second...we're looking at the innate 75% kinetic damage reduction that shields have.
6380.2 * 0.25 will be the damage after that reduction. 1595.05 damage remains after the innate damage reduction.
Third...we'll hit up the damage reduction from the 125 Shield Power and EPtW1.
125 Shield Power provides 35% damage reduction. EPtW1 provides 30% damage reduction. That does not mean we have 65% damage reduction. Math doesn't work that way. 1 - ((1 - 0.35) * (1 - 0.3)) = 1 - (0.65 * 0.7) = 1 - 0.455 = 0.545 = 54.5% damage reduction. 45.5% damage done.
1595.05 * 0.455 = 725.74775 will be the damage after that reduction.
725.7 is higher than 100. This is where the curious debate tends to arise about the actual damage that is passed on to the hull. Is it 625.7 damage?
Is it instead...
100 shield health...183.5 effective shield health, taking into account the 125 Shield Power and EPtW1. 733.9 effective shield health vs. kinetic if we take into account the innate kinetic resist as well. So is the damage done to hull instead then 6380.2 - 733.9 = 5646.3 damage?
For the life of me, I can't remember and I no longer have the second account where I could test it.
That being said, imho...
If it's 625.7 damage...it should be 5646.3 damage instead. If it's 5646.3 damage, well - it's fine then.
Wish I could remember...lol...oh well.
I totally agree with number 3. We've got so many hybrid energy weapons, so why not some variety in torps, or even mines? They've even done up those transphasic-chroniton torps already, but only in white.
Hmm, have to wonder if they're making purple versions for a Voth doff pack or something.
As for number 2, it kinda got me wondering about incorporating unlocking torpedo GCD for a short period of time in the form of a boff ability or console, with a long cooldown, of course. Possibly at the cost of disabling weapons or reducing accuracy. Or even a charge-up time like the MACO graviton beam and a narrow arc.
Or maybe an ability similar to high yield that ripple-fires all your launchers once each in rapid succession? Like where high yield launches 4 torps, this ability launches 4 torps, with proportion according to launchers equipped e.g. 2 launchers, 2 torps from each or 3 launchers, 1 from each plus 1 random.
Man, there's so many ways to make torps pretty interesting. But hmm......a lot of these suggestions might worsen that spike factor you mentioned.
On a side note, now that I think about it, the Hargh'peng torp doesn't seem to have the travel time issues other torps have - would be nice if that could be retrofitted onto the others.
As in if it does enough damage to have brought down the shield facing then the damage goes straight to hull bypassing the shield. So it may even be 6716 to hull then factoring whatever resists there are there.
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
Heh, like I said - couldn't remember how it worked...that's a quirky possibility as well.
I started to post a reply in the Sax thread...cause, I don't necessarily agree with a lot of what's been said in regard to overcapping out there - but I honestly don't know enough about how EPS works, because I never bothered with it...so I didn't post the reply.
The following is as far as I had gotten when I gave up...
Hrmm, we can actually play with real numbers...some real basic numbers, but real numbers all the same.
Say we've got a Mk X Common Beam Array, 9 Weapons Training, 9 Energy Weapons, and that's that. Heh, basic numbers - easier to deal with, eh? So the damage we're looking at before Weapon Power would be ~313.9 DPV. If we hit that up with 125 Weapon Power, then we're looking at ~784.8 DPV (yeah, there was some rounding here and there that ended up favoring going to .8 instead of .7, but trying to keep it simple).
It's a single weapon, there's no drain, it has a 4/5 RoF. So we fire it and...
...first thing we should note is if we've been doing DPS calcs at a 4/5 RoF, we've been doing it wrong. I admit it, I tend to do it wrong for Energy even though I do it right for Kinetic.
It's not really a 5s period. It's a 5.3-5.8s period that averages out to ~5.5s period.
For example:
14:01:06:11:28:27.3
14:01:06:11:28:28.3
14:01:06:11:28:29.3
14:01:06:11:28:30.4
2.4s gap
14:01:06:11:28:32.8
14:01:06:11:28:33.8
14:01:06:11:28:34.8
14:01:06:11:28:35.9
2.3s gap
14:01:06:11:28:38.2
14:01:06:11:28:39.2
14:01:06:11:28:40.2
14:01:06:11:28:41.3
2.8s gap
14:01:06:11:28:44.1
14:01:06:11:28:45.2
14:01:06:11:28:46.1
14:01:06:11:28:47.2
2.3s gap
14:01:06:11:28:49.5
14:01:06:11:28:50.5
14:01:06:11:28:51.6
14:01:06:11:28:52.6
2.3s gap
14:01:06:11:28:54.9
14:01:06:11:28:55.9
14:01:06:11:28:57.0
14:01:06:11:28:58.0
2.6s gap
14:01:06:11:29:00.6
14:01:06:11:29:01.6
14:01:06:11:29:02.7
14:01:06:11:29:03.7
2.3s gap
14:01:06:11:29:06.0
Heck, even the 1s between pulses isn't always 1s. There are some examples up there of it being 1.1s. I've seen it being 0.9s. It averages out to be 1s though.
It raises the question of where the ~0.5s comes in, eh? At the start of the cycle or at the end of the cycle? Is there ~1.5s before the first shot is fired or is there just ~2.5s before the sixth shot is fired? Heck, is it ~1.25s before and after? Fun stuff, eh? Let's slap it at the end for now (even though that could be wrong, it's not necessarily wrong - because it would only be wrong for the very first shot...after that, it's just between the last in a cycle and the first)...
0s Trigger the Array!
1s 784.8 damage
2s 784.8 damage
3s 784.8 damage
4s 784.8 damage
5s Recharge Period!
5.5s Mystery Time!/Trigger the Array Again!
6.5s 784.8 damage
7.5s 784.8 damage
8.5s 784.8 damage
9.5s 784.8 damage
10.5s Recharge Period!
Etc, etc, etc...with one weapon, no drain, etc, etc, etc - it progresses, blah, blah, blah.
If we add a second beam...we're adding -10 drain. Our damage at 115 Weapon Power would be 722.1 DPV instead.
0s Trigger the Arrays!
1s 784.8 damage Array #1/722.1 damage Array #2
2s 722.1 damage Array #1/722.1 damage Array #2
3s 722.1 damage Array #1/722.1 damage Array #2
4s 722.1 damage Array #1/722.1 damage Array #2
5s Recharge Period!
5.5s Mystery Time!
Now, during that 1.5s Recharge/Mystery Time...based on our EPS Rate, we should get Weapon Power back, right? 9.95/s is a standard amount, eh? 9 in SEPS, base 5, 9.95/s...usually seen as 10/s, eh?
So in firing two Arrays, we should drop by 10 after the first shot because of firing the second array - but we should bounce up by 10 during that ~1.5s at the end.
This suggests though, that if we had eight arrays...the following would happen.
125 Weapon Power to start.
Fire 8x Arrays, drops Weapon Power to 55.
We gain 15 power at the end of the cycle to take us to 70.
Fire 8x Arrays, drops to 0.
We gain...
Wait, that doesn't happen...does it?
Yeah, EPS and me? Meh...it's why I tend just to shoot for 180-190+ overcap with 6-7 beams and rarely ever drop below the 125 Weapon Power in the first place to worry about it. Might drop to 119, 109...but it's back in the blink of an eye.
gg.
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.