Dyson Battlezone Problem: AFKers, Looters and Taggers

kemcha

I couldn't find an appropriate topic for this so here goes, and forgive my little rant ...

Over the course of the past few days, I've noticed a major problem that Cryptic has with Battlezone that they refuse to either address, acknowledge or fix. This concerns the scammers who wait in the Command Center until the various areas of the Battlezone are cleared and then they race like hell to the Bio-engineered dinos (the big bossess), hoping to get the big bonus rewards without putting out the work for it.

I believe many have termed these worthless players as "AFKers", "Looters" or "Taggers" and it has literally gotten out of hand. The problem has become so bad that BZ has become an AFK/Looter/Tagger nightmare. Something drastic needs to be done.

I would suggest that when Battlezone starts, to restrict access to the Command Center during the event or even going so far as to lock the transporters and the doors to the Command Center when the boss fight starts. Because, as it stands now, BZ has become the epitome of STO.

It's even worse than the AFKers doing the PvE stuff and Cryptic needs to address this problem because it's grown into a major problem. Unless the rest of you guys don't agree with me on this.

Unfortunately, my big mouth in BZ chat has gotten me temporarily suspended (which I hope is resolved soon).

john98837

The problem with the battlezone is not taggers or whatever term you want to use, it is the reward system. Rewarding 10 marks and 60 dil for spending 3 or 4 minutes capturing a point is just insulting, and it doesn't make much of a difference in the final reward. On the other hand in that 3-4 minutes I could have just done an elite stf and gotten 1440 dil and 75+ omega marks. When you have a situation like that yeah people are going to say frak the capture points and just participate in the final vrex fight, and I don't blame them.

The real solution is the make the capture points reward more and have a larger influence on the final reward. For example if each point gave 480 dil and 20 marks, and then another say 10-20 marks and 480 dil per capture point done when the vrex was done that might be something I'd be willing to do. At the same time decrease the base reward on the vrex so that its more about how many capture points you have done. Also make the reward the same for everyone in the zone rather than based on how many vrexs you hit. So if took the time to capture 10 points I might get 200 marks and 4800 dil at the end of a vrex, were as someone who only captured 1 or 2 points might only get 50 marks and 1200 dil.

Wouldn't be quite as efficient as just running an elite stf, but I do find the battlezone much more enjoyable.

annemarie30

john98837 wrote: »

The problem with the battlezone is not taggers or whatever term you want to use, it is the reward system. Rewarding 10 marks and 60 dil for spending 3 or 4 minutes capturing a point is just insulting, and it doesn't make much of a difference in the final reward. On the other hand in that 3-4 minutes I could have just done an elite stf and gotten 1440 dil and 75+ omega marks. When you have a situation like that yeah people are going to say frak the capture points and just participate in the final vrex fight, and I don't blame them.

The real solution is the make the capture points reward more and have a larger influence on the final reward. For example if each point gave 480 dil and 20 marks, and then another say 10-20 marks and 480 dil per capture point done when the vrex was done that might be something I'd be willing to do. Wouldn't be quite as efficient as just running an elite stf, but I do find the battlezone much more enjoyable.

one thing you could do is set each point a set values, say, 50 marks and 500 dil. you have to spend at least 10% of the time it takes from entry to capture to qualify for the reward. each player who qualifies splits the reward. the final battle would not have a set value, but a multiplier of how many points you got credit for. if you spend 20 minutes capturing a relay solo, you get the 50/500, but if it's the only point you get your multiplier for the final is 1. the final reward could be something as small as 3/30. say the average person captures 15, it's 45/450, more respectable and it would kill off the looters.
same thing for the afkers in the stfs/borg encounters. I see a couple of peons sitting there while 1-2 do all the work and they collect the marks and dil. there needs to be a minimum level of damage either healed or inflicted to qualify

kemcha

john, I have to agree with you and maybe Cryptic needs to update Battlezone so that you aren't rewarded with the Boss Rewards unless you help capture 75% of the capture points. This problem has gotten so far out of control that it's causing a lot of animosity in BZ.

Also, the Boss Rewards should be adjusted by how active you are in the BZ Event. For example, if you don't help with the capture points, you don't get the Boss Rewards. I know that certain PvE events give you final rewards based on your participation and the same thing should apply here as well.

annmarie, I agree with you as well. This is just a problem that Cryptic needs to address because Dyson has been out for a short period of time and these problems have already spiraled out of control with a lot of angry in-game players.

vetteguy904

I got yelled at because I took a relay solo, saw there were only a few points left, so i went to the silo and camped, waiting for the medics to spawn. so I'm killing like the fourth medic to spawn when the first group shows up and starts spamming about how i was a looter, and i should have been attacking rexy.

SMH

kemcha

They were mad because you killed it on your own. Things like that, Cryptic wouldn't worry about it. But, what I'm talking about here is the STO players who will camp out in the Command Center or find a safe zone in the area in BZ and simply wait for all of the areas to be cleared first before the Bosses appear and then they either run like hell to the bosses or just wait in the respected areas so they can run from boss to boss, snatching all of the rewards in the process.

It's unfair sportsmanship or gameshipman behavior and Cryptic really needs to do something about this. At this point, I think they need to seriously nerf Battlezone so that if you don't participate in capturing the 'capture points' that you don't get the rewards for the bosses.

As much as we don't like Cryptic nerfing anything in the game, Battlezone needs a drastic change because it's turning into a bigger problem than Cryptic realized it would.

robdmc

I under stand your concerns but there are a few other problems you are forgetting. The rewards for the capture points work the same way as the vrex battles. All you have to do is shoot a bad guy once to qualify.

If they were to up the rewards for the capture point all I would have to do is run around to all the capture points ahead of the mob shooting one bad guy and I would get credit for the entire map.

At this point all they are doing is running up to the vrex shooting them once and instance hopping to the next vrex.

What I suggest is putting the map on a timer. Make it so the vrex can only appear once a half hour at the same time in all instances. The vrex event should only last for three minutes only giving you time to kill one of them making you choose and commit to a battle. The vrex event can only happen if you get a minimum amount of capture points leading up to the vrex event giving added insentive to actually try to get the points. From there adjust the rewards accordingly.

doffingcomrade

I don't see why this is even a problem. AFKers get nothing, because they're just standing in the command center twiddling their thumbs, and missing the party. The capture points are run by those seeking to fill the appropriate missions, and people who do that do so for the reward granted by the relevant mission, which isn't bad at all. When I run the missions, I don't care that a bunch of people are waiting for the dino to spawn, I'm doing it to fill my dailies.

Similarly, taggers aren't a problem: Everyone should be a tagger. It is not as if the taggers never participate. Rather, they are simply doing the sensible thing of tagging as many dinos as they can before shooting the last dino. As everyone is doing the same circuit, all the dinos end up going down: The "taggers" you complain about are the very same people who are present at the fight at the end, helping you shoot down the dino. The ones you see standing their ground are simply the ones who have tagged the other two. The ones you see running off after tagging will eventually stop and fight once they reach the third point.

There is no massive injustice being committed here. If all the taggers were removed suddenly, you'd just end up with an empty field where no one is helping you, because the people who are arriving after tagging the other points never appear.

tggrinc

.....Since the problem is how the players are playing the scenario, it's unlikely cryptic will address it. look at how long it took them to even attempt to address afk's in the STF's. And that still happens.

.....One good thing about STO is the huge variety of things you can do in it. There are whole sections of the game that you can ignore and still get hours of playtime out of it. So, if you're unhappy with that part of the game, don't play it.

.....Games are supposed to be fun, when they stop being fun I stop playing. So my suggestion would be to stop charging windmills and move on to some other part of the game that you enjoy more.


Side notes...

.....Sometimes players will stop offensive behavior due to community pressure, but that depends on the community universally finding the behavior unacceptable. Which isn't always the case.
.....Other times certain behaviors will end because the players that are playing just for maximum rewards, not because they like a particular arena, will have farmed everything they want from that area.
.....There is the outside possibility that cryptic will attempt some sort of fix. Which will surely create other problems. But that's unlikely to be anytime soon, as crytic is slow to fix serious coding problems, and even slower to address player behavior problems.

All that being said:
.....The community does have some natural ability to correct problems like this. If everyone that wasn't sitting out the action in the command center quit, the wallflowers would have to get out and play.
.....This is something that can happen naturally over time as more and more of the community decide they aren't going to carry the freeloaders. (It happened in STF's; Entire teams would quit and leave afk's in empty arenas.) Eventually the arenas would be empty and the queue's would get so long that the freeloaders would have to go elsewhere to farm.

.....Empty queue's also tend to get a dev's attention. But I wouldn't hold my breath.

mikefl

Based on the queues the problem isn't that bad and I like doing the BZ and the capture points and I also run form rex to rex like everyone else. You just need to jump on the same bandwagon. Campers in the command center I don't know how much of that is really happening but you still need those people to take out the rex at the end in a decent amount of time.

There are other threads about this in this forum section.

http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=956601&page=3

Only 3 pages there of mixed feelings... I think the problem is really overstated in the bigger scheme of things. If the map you're on has so many moochers you have another 30 to choose from most days.

robdmc

The "freeloaders" also don't effect ones game play. Form a team. That is the fastest way to complete a zone. There is a soft cap of 15 players. Fill a zone.

doffingcomrade

mikefl wrote: »

Only 3 pages there of mixed feelings... I think the problem is really overstated in the bigger scheme of things. If the map you're on has so many moochers you have another 30 to choose from most days.

But that's the thing: The people aren't MOOCHING. Mooching or leeching implies that if everyone behaves in the same way, the mission would fail. Taggers don't mooch. They run from Rex to Rex, tagging as many as they can, and once they have tagged all 3, they fight. If everyone does this, people will cycle from battle to battle before coming to rest at their final third Rex, whereupon they fight. All 3 are then killed, and everyone gets maximum pay. In fact, taggers consider your habit of shooting recklessly to be a bit of an irritant, as it prevents everyone from getting maximum reward.

Similarly, point-cappers aren't somehow being ripped off. While the stated reward for capturing a point is very low, and this is why people seem to stand around in the command center a lot, there ARE several missions which specifically reward, at decent pay, point-capping behavior. It's just that these missions are limited in run: You can only "Kill A Lot Of Voth" once an hour. You can only collect your command credits and summon the reinforcements once a day. You can only cap your two points once a day. Once you have done so, of course, there is little reward for continuing to do so. Thus, you rest in the command center while others who are running their dailies do it. There is nothing wrong with this: They've done their part.

The constant churn of players in and out of the zones assures that everyone can do what they need to do, benefitting the others who are in turn doing what they need to get done. They aren't "leeching" or "freeloading", they're just pursuing different objectives.

oldravenman3025

There is nothing wrong with the current Battlezone system.


Like all of the bi**hing about so-called "AFKers" in STFs, the perceived "problems" are blown way out of proportion.

markhawkman

The problem with tagging is that someone has to stick around to kill the Voth. Otherwise you fail.

Killing the rexes one at a time can still result in getting all three. This is why tagging is looked down on. Kill A, kill B, then kill C. Taggers don't do much work in killing them..... and they certainly don't take the time to kill the Voth, which is ultimately more important than killing the Rex. Rexes don't regen, it doesn't matter how long it takes you to kill them. But if you don't deal with the Voth, you hit the mission failure condition.

john98837

markhawkman wrote: »

The problem with tagging is that someone has to stick around to kill the Voth. Otherwise you fail.

Killing the rexes one at a time can still result in getting all three. This is why tagging is looked down on. Kill A, kill B, then kill C. Taggers don't do much work in killing them..... and they certainly don't take the time to kill the Voth, which is ultimately more important than killing the Rex. Rexes don't regen, it doesn't matter how long it takes you to kill them. But if you don't deal with the Voth, you hit the mission failure condition.

Tag Rex 1, Kill any Medics

Tag Rex 2, Kill any Medics

Tag Rex 3, Kill medics, Kill Rex

With a constant flow of taggers coming around at the beginning the medics stay dead plenty well, weather someone stays behind or not. I haven't seen a failed vrex in a long time, not since the early days when people didn't realize you gotta kill the voth with the giant arrows above there head.

crusty8mac

john98837 wrote: »

The problem with the battlezone is not taggers or whatever term you want to use, it is the reward system....

The real solution is the make the capture points reward more and have a larger influence on the final reward. For example if each point gave 480 dil and 20 marks, and then another say 10-20 marks and 480 dil per capture point done when the vrex was done that might be something I'd be willing to do. At the same time decrease the base reward on the vrex so that its more about how many capture points you have done. Also make the reward the same for everyone in the zone rather than based on how many vrexs you hit. So if took the time to capture 10 points I might get 200 marks and 4800 dil at the end of a vrex, were as someone who only captured 1 or 2 points might only get 50 marks and 1200 dil.

Wouldn't be quite as efficient as just running an elite stf, but I do find the battlezone much more enjoyable.

I have to agree with this.

I would add they need to scrap Easter egg hunt method of rewarding no matter what else they do.

markhawkman

john98837 wrote: »

Tag Rex 1, Kill any Medics

Tag Rex 2, Kill any Medics

Tag Rex 3, Kill medics, Kill Rex

With a constant flow of taggers coming around at the beginning the medics stay dead plenty well, weather someone stays behind or not. I haven't seen a failed vrex in a long time, not since the early days when people didn't realize you gotta kill the voth with the giant arrows above there head.

If you can do all of that, then you're a lot more awesome than 90% of the people I've seen in the battlezone. All six medics though or just the first one or two?

@Crusty: I like doing rewards piecemeal in general. BZ would be less fun if you only got rewards at the end.

futurepastnow

One way to eliminate "taggers" would be to tie the V-Rex reward to engaging it in combat within the ten seconds or so prior to its death. So you'd have to be there at the end and help actually kill it to get the reward, and if there's another V-Rex still standing and you run fast enough, you can still get more than one kill credit.

markhawkman

futurepastnow wrote: »

One way to eliminate "taggers" would be to tie the V-Rex reward to engaging it in combat within the ten seconds or so prior to its death. So you'd have to be there at the end and help actually kill it to get the reward, and if there's another V-Rex still standing and you run fast enough, you can still get more than one kill credit.

Or at least be in that part of the BZ. It wouldn't do to have people lose out on the reward simply because they had to respawn.

Actually that'd be simpler. Only get the Rex kill reward if you're in the third of the BZ where the Rex is.

doffingcomrade

markhawkman wrote: »

The problem with tagging is that someone has to stick around to kill the Voth. Otherwise you fail.

But taggers do stick around to kill the Voth: The guys coming in from tagging their third Dino stand and fight. The rest of us shoot the Rex, kill the medics, and move to the next Dino, until we reach our third dino, whereupon we kill it.

markhawkman wrote: »

If you can do all of that, then you're a lot more awesome than 90% of the people I've seen in the battlezone. All six medics though or just the first one or two?

Kill any you see and mine their corpses, then run. If they get up again, the mines should keep them suppressed. If any of them show up later, the next group passing through should take them out. As long as everyone cycles smoothly and does their part, everyone will get the full reward and all the silos will be saved.

rickdias5500

You have lost the allied zone dally. Would you like to lose another? Stop crying about piddly little things and play the game. Enjoy the rep system grind.

mikoto123a

rickdias5500 wrote: »

You have lost the allied zone dally. Would you like to lose another? Stop crying about piddly little things and play the game. Enjoy the rep system grind.

Have to agree with the above post and honestly in this zone it's not something I am going to get annoyed about.

The only thing I find annoying is the attitude of some power players who really need to learn good gamesmanship that I am seeing in this zone.

If you spawn in an instance, not happy about something - move instances.

budoshin42

doffingcomrade has had the most sensible things to say in this whole thread and I agree with everything you've posted in this thread doffingcomrade...

Taggers help the zone they are in. I tag and I prefer to join zones that are near completion so I can help cap some points and have more time to get to all the V-Rexes by being there when the V-rex spawns and then I look at the levels and sometimes I stay to kill my final V-rex or sometimes I go to whatever area needs help killing Voth Medics.

The only thing that gets me is when I see people dancing around in the command center with a disco ball while the V-rex is raging in a full zone. Please take the dance party to Risa and open the zone for players who want to do BATTLE in the BattleZone...

Honestly everyone is going to have problems with the way others play if they are not comfortable playing that way. I ran the BZ over 250 times, capping points the whole way before I became a tagger. It just makes more sense and is more kind to other players to tag letting everyone in your zone have a chance to get all the rewards for being there fighting the good fight rather than unloading your clip and all your powers into the first dino you see so he dies quick and then no one else who was a little too late has a chance to have a shot at him. That's the behavior that steals rewards from other players IMO...

vaithh

FWIW I am not too bent out of shape over the ordeal, however I feel Resolution is simple.

You aren't in the Area when it is captured, or when a V-Rex is killed, you don't get dilithium credit, or the stacking bonus.

The theory that people usually help at their 3rd rex isn't true for everyone. In a day of boredom, I have followed quite a few people to the 3 areas, from which they go directly to the command center and again go AFK without really contributing to the cause of bringing the Rex down.

For the record I wasn't participating in tagging and running, I was just shadowing a players a bit.


It's sad, but like everything in STO, there are people that exploit this map as well.

genada

The issues your having, ignore them. You can do the zone by yourself or in teams so what others do shouldn't really matter to you.

Dyson Ground Battlezone is the biggest gift for dil they could of done. It doesn't really take that long and you get a massive amount of dil and you can do it as often as you want.

There's a couple ideas in this thread such as giving rewards based on what you did vs the current system that are good but to be honest seems like more work for Cryptic then it would be worth.

If your having problems with command credits, wait for the zone to restart and cap the transporter. It pops out like 25 credits and often enough no one else will be around when you do it.

doffingcomrade

vaithh wrote: »

The theory that people usually help at their 3rd rex isn't true for everyone. In a day of boredom, I have followed quite a few people to the 3 areas, from which they go directly to the command center and again go AFK without really contributing to the cause of bringing the Rex down.

Those people aren't too sharp on the form of things: They're doing far more work than they need to, since they have to WALK ALL THE WAY BACK TO THE COMMAND CENTER. This is far more work than simply taking aim at the nearest target and letting autofire do its job. If they had simply stayed, they'd have gotten a free teleport back to the CC/Teleporter when they left the instance at conclusion. There will always be people that just don't get it. Pay them no mind, in an instance as large as BZ, there's always going to be a few short bussers.

freenos85

doffingcomrade wrote: »

Those people aren't too sharp on the form of things: They're doing far more work than they need to, since they have to WALK ALL THE WAY BACK TO THE COMMAND CENTER.

Nope they don't. The real farmers/taggers/whathaveyou i observed don't run anywhere except to the frist rex. They don't wear armor or use a psg. They run at a rex, tag it and afterwards let themselves get killed by a mortar strike. Rinse and repeat that 3 time and they are done.
Those kinds of players don't contribute anything to the map and just lengthen the whole process. So yes, they are a nuisance since i don't want to do their work for them, but am.

senselocke

I like the scaling-rewards idea, but this would be as simple as making zones with Big Dinos up "Locked Out" from zoning--artificially inflate the number of players in the zone until they are all dead/gone to prevent zone-hoppers from spamming the system. I know Sector Space has a different player (72) limit than, say Winter Wonderland (30)--so different limits are possible.

As for AKFer's? Hop them back to the Command Center after two minutes of activity, or better yet, re-zone them to a non-locked zone after 3 or 4.

You can do this and prevent legitimate players from hurting too--allow a Warp To Rally Point option to players in the Omega Silo "sector" after the Rex is dead, so people actually playing can quickly hop back to the Command Center.

Also, Cryptic, revamp the ground combat to be as rewarding/engaging as the BZ in the rest of the game.

doffingcomrade

freenos85 wrote: »

Nope they don't. The real farmers/taggers/whathaveyou i observed don't run anywhere except to the frist rex. They don't wear armor or use a psg. They run at a rex, tag it and afterwards let themselves get killed by a mortar strike. Rinse and repeat that 3 time and they are done.

Actually, that's also an important strategy necessitated by the need to get there before some random jackwagon kills them all. Doing this allows us to get to where we need to be faster. The faster we can get our tagging done, the faster we can get back to where we are needed to kill those medics.

freenos85

doffingcomrade wrote: »

Actually, that's also an important strategy necessitated by the need to get there before some random jackwagon kills them all.

Because that's what you not want. Secure the victory condition of the map. This comment alone shows how egotistical your motives are. Don't make it look like you are actually needed. One person is needed to kill the medics, not an army of taggers who let themselfes be killed by the third T-Rex anyway, so they don't have to do any further work.
Any other excuses you are "needed" ?

doffingcomrade

freenos85 wrote: »

Because that's what you not want. Secure the victory condition of the map.

Yes, to secure the victory conditions of the map, and MAXIMIZE THE REWARD RECEIVED BY EVERYONE. That's the goal of ANY mission. To win without maximizing the reward makes the entire exercise a complete waste of time. To "win", but not receive the proper reward, is functionally equivalent to losing, and often worse, when losing actually gets you the better reward.

freenos85 wrote: »

This comment alone shows how egotistical your motives are. Don't make it look like you are actually needed.

The fact that at least multiple times, I arrived at the final area to find a bunch of people shooting the dino, while the Medics were working away unmolested in the background with seconds left on the to spare, says that yes, I was needed. Otherwise that zone would have been lost.

freenos85 wrote: »

One person is needed to kill the medics, not an army of taggers who let themselfes be killed by the third T-Rex anyway, so they don't have to do any further work.

Well, not everyone has mastered suiting up on the run, clearly. But believe me, any refinement to the method that increases the speed at which you can achieve free agency and thus move to the points you might be needed, is a good thing. There is a reason why rates of dino-failure have fallen significantly.