I have yet to see evidence of pay2win, I was worried the new both ship would be such evidence until it was explained the revival ability of the ship does not take away form the kill count. It's all cosmetics and vanity gimmicks. If you buy a ship, or uniform off the z-store I hope it's for the look because really that's all you are getting, a look.
There may not be any winning but there is definitely pay to pawn going on in PvP. All the lobi consoles and lock box ships do provide a significant advantage. To deny that is pretty ridiculous. Compare a fleet nova to wells temporal ship with its shiny consoles. They aren't even close in performance.
As for PvE, pay 2 win is more like pay to be first. A lot of PvE content rewards players who do the most DPS with best loot. Being able to fly a scimitar with all the latest gear that you bought at an expedited pace by funneling vast amounts of zen to fleets is paying to get ahead.
As for the people who grind away their lives ... I feel sad for you. It is one thing to play it because you love the game. But being a slave-wage laborer in the west is beyond ridiculous. Your time ... No matter who you are ... Is worth more than 50 cents an hour.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
You forgot to mention how many days it took you to buy this stuff just by grinding dili for 'little time'
Because you surely didn't spend any dili on space or ground equipment and all you did was save your precious 8K dili a day which you made by spending 'little time' in game.
I smell BS around here...
The listed items were aquired over the span of the entire game's existence (see the Emblem-bought Kar'fi and the VA-Token-B'Rel).
Took me about a year to get the Lobi for the Temporal Destroyer. Buying it from the exchange would've taken me two months, at the most. I went for the Lobi instead, simply because I was bored and because I could.
I've also purchased a few fleet items here and there and am currently saving up for the Tac consoles from the Fleet Spire.
I never said it's fast. In fact, I said it does take time.
Here's my take on the way PWE does the economy in STO. It's a skinner box. It's crafted specifically to get people to either grind or buy. That sucks, I don't want my games to be a job, I want them to be an enjoyable diversion. I do not enjoy the story missions. I do not enjoy the grinding to keep up with other players in PvP. I want to play the game, not bust my TRIBBLE getting my toon ready to play. The sad truth is that the stuff you need collect to craft or buy the most desirable gear is tied to a treadmill. Run for x miles a day and get a reward. The missions shouldn't be a means to an end, the missions should be the reason to play and they're not. I spend more time in Ker'rat than I do in anything else because there's always a new challenge in the randomness of the PvP there.
So, STF's, Fleet Actions, Dailies, and so on are not a very enjoyable way to play this game and earn resources for new gear. It's drudgery, it's a chore. I'm sick of the borg STF's for instance, they're all pretty much the same. So are the fleet actions. The NPC's don't surprise you. They don't change tactics. They don't try to trick you into making a mistake. They don't think. They don't learn.
I guess what I'm saying is that this game needs more PvEvP. Give us some exploration with territory control. Exploration for the casual PvE fans and territory control for the PvP fans. Explorers find new planets and resources for their fleet and PvPers defend those new discoveries from other factions. So exploration creates persistent new points of interest with foundry missions attached to them, while the Feds, and the Klinks fight over control of the new-found territories. Now Feds have a reason to patrol. KDF can raid Fed Territory. Oh, and you can role play sub factions like the Maquis, Tal Shiar, or the Obsidian Order.
Go here and show your support for a better Foundry!
And where do you think the Zen comes from eh? Just magically appears on the exchange?
It means someone, somewhere has paid for it (whether it's a lifer, monthly payer, purchased from the Zen Store).
So NO, Pay2Win is not a myth...
Imagine, for one whole week, everyone who has bought or earned Zen, removed their sales from the Exchange.. How would you get your Zen then?
Liftime subs get zen every month, and they only pay once. That's where it would come from. This isn't battlestar galactica, where you have a selection of regular ammo or harder hitting ammo, and you don't have to level up your equipment to make it hit harder. Everything here is pretty cheap, except for a few select items on the exchange. You're guranteed dilithium and energy credits every single day, so you simply save what you earn in game and eventually you'll be at the same level as someone who got everything in 1 day with a credit card. So no, pay to win does NOT exist, because paying doesn't put you at a permanently higher level than just grinding it out. The only difference is that subs have a few more perks than ftp players.
Here's my take on the way PWE does the economy in STO. It's a skinner box. It's crafted specifically to get people to either grind or buy. That sucks, I don't want my games to be a job, I want them to be an enjoyable diversion.
For me, that's exactly what it is. I grind my Dilithium mostly via doffing. Contraband Turn-Ins, Forced Labor, etc.
So while my ship autopilots through sector space, I goof around in Fleet chat with my Fleet mates. It's quite relaxing, actually. Doesn't feel like work at all.
Here's my take on the way PWE does the economy in STO. It's a skinner box. It's crafted specifically to get people to either grind or buy. That sucks, I don't want my games to be a job, I want them to be an enjoyable diversion. I do not enjoy the story missions. I do not enjoy the grinding to keep up with other players in PvP. I want to play the game, not bust my TRIBBLE getting my toon ready to play. The sad truth is that the stuff you need collect to craft or buy the most desirable gear is tied to a treadmill. Run for x miles a day and get a reward. The missions shouldn't be a means to an end, the missions should be the reason to play and they're not. I spend more time in Ker'rat than I do in anything else because there's always a new challenge in the randomness of the PvP there.
So, STF's, Fleet Actions, Dailies, and so on are not a very enjoyable way to play this game and earn resources for new gear. It's drudgery, it's a chore. I'm sick of the borg STF's for instance, they're all pretty much the same. So are the fleet actions. The NPC's don't surprise you. They don't change tactics. They don't try to trick you into making a mistake. They don't think. They don't learn.
I guess what I'm saying is that this game needs more PvEvP. Give us some exploration with territory control. Exploration for the casual PvE fans and territory control for the PvP fans. Explorers find new planets and resources for their fleet and PvPers defend those new discoveries from other factions. So exploration creates persistent new points of interest with foundry missions attached to them, while the Feds, and the Klinks fight over control of the new-found territories. Now Feds have a reason to patrol. KDF can raid Fed Territory. Oh, and you can role play sub factions like the Maquis, Tal Shiar, or the Obsidian Order.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
Can it be argued that the reputation system is a means to limit the amount of p2w in this game? Correct me if I'm wrong on this.
1) You will need to contribute a certain amount of marks daily for close to a month, for different individual reps in order to complete them.
2) To efficiently earn the marks, one will have to be proficient in at least a few end game contents such as Elite STFs, queued events, Dyson Space/Battlezone missions (the only exception here is Tagging Epohhs). These contents, though nothing like elite pvp matches, does prepare the players with some basic end-game skills (and teamwork)
3) Completing the reputations grant the players with various passive/active abilities that give them some cutting-edge over other players, they also unlock Rep stores that allow them to purchase end game gears that are important to remain competitive. Most of the Rep Gears cater to a certain play style so even when newer Rep gears are being introduced it doesn't force you to switch.
Ps: I am a F2P player, and I have spent very little on C-store items or lock box ships (most of my dilithium is spent on Rep gear). I used Freebie ships such as those given away in Events (Chel Grett, Risian Corvette, Odyssey, Bortas) along with rep gear for a long time.
Recently, due to the lobi store discount, I made an unprecedented purchase on a Temporal Destroyer and JHDC on the exchange. Frankly speaking I do not see myself commanding a significant advantage as compared to using freebie ships. They do add a lot more variety to my play style though, which can be fun.
So I agree with some of you that the game is largely Pay-to-Customize. It does has some degree of P2W, but the advantage you gain is quite minimal, and you can only tell when 2 players of similar skills compete.
I have yet to see evidence of pay2win, I was worried the new both ship would be such evidence until it was explained the revival ability of the ship does not take away form the kill count. It's all cosmetics and vanity gimmicks. If you buy a ship, or uniform off the z-store I hope it's for the look because really that's all you are getting, a look.
There are no regular free Tier 5 ships. Yes there are ways in which you can 'win' one if you're lucky, or you can save the ridiculous levels of EC to buy one off the exchange (But only if you've paid zen to remove the 10mill cap), but if you aren't spending money on the game, you're lumbered with what you're given when you hit level 40.
Personally, I don't mind having to pay a modest sum every now and then (Though as I've saved ~3,500 zen in about seven weeks via dilithium trading and surveys/adverts, it is unlikely I'll pay out much more than a single months subscription costs any time soon), as long as there's the option of supplementing bought zen with earned, I'm happy.
But I want everything in the game, and I want it now.
That there is the key difference. You can earn practically anything in the game free. But the difference is how long it's going to take. I have friends that of course play strictly free and it takes them forever to buy, for example, that 1 C-Store or Lobi ship. I applaud their patience and ability to earn it the slow, free way and keeping focused on what they're trying to get.
Alright, I'm really getting tired of people whining about C-Store stuff, Lockboxes and the Lobi Store and how freaking greedy Perfect World/Cryptic are apparently.
So I went through all my purchases and calculated the overall amount of Zen that they cost.
Note that none of the items on this list were paid for with real money! I simply play between one and two hours per day and grind whatever I currently need to grind.
So, here's my List:
EC Cap - 500 Zen 2 Character slots - 625 Zen Tactical Vesta - 2500 Zen Isometric Charge Console - 1500 Zen Rhode Island (giveaway) - 750 Zen Nebula (giveaway) - 2000 Zen Yellowstone Runabout (giveaway) - 500 Zen TWOK Uniform (giveaway) - 550 Zen TOS Command Tunic (giveaway) - 550 Zen Reman Character (reputation unlock)- 600 Zen Delta Flyer (crafted it the old way)- 500 Zen Tac Bortasqu' - 2500 Zen Eng Bortasqu' - 2500 Zen Guramba Siege Destroyer- 2000 Zen B'Rel Retrofit (character unlock via VA Token) - 2000 Zen Kar'Fi Carrier (character unlock via Emblem grinding before we had Dilithium)- 2000 Zen To'duj Fighter (giveaway) - 500 Zen Marauder Patrol Cruiser (giveaway) - 2000 Zen Phalanx Science Vessel (giveaway) - 1000 Zen Qorgh Raptor (giveaway) - 1000 Zen Krenn Class, Temporal Destroyer - 800 Lobi - 20160 Zen ( 5 Lobi per box) Temporal Warfare Set - 600 Lobi - 15120 Zen ( 5 Lobi per box) Korath Uniform - 200 Lobi - 5040 Zen ( 5 Lobi per box) Korath Class, Temporal Science Ship - 145 million EC - 10458 Zen (1,75 mil per key at the time of purchase) Lhair Class, Tal Shiar Adapted Destroyer - 56 million EC - 5922 Zen (1,2 mil per key at the time of purchase)
Which amounts to:
82775 Zen
Again, I did not pay a single dime for any of this. All I do is spend a little time ingame each day, mostly grinding my 8k Dilithium per day on one and sometimes two characters.
Oh, and I went Silver when the game became F2P. So no stipends either.
So quit your whining and stop being lazy. Getting shineys isn't hard, it just takes some time.
Wow only 82775 zen. And refining 8000 dil a day, at an exchange rate of 132 dil to 1 zen gives you 61 dil a day. At that rate, if you never miss a day, you can get those ships and items above in only 1135 days. Only 3 years!
I'm sorry, but while you're being a chump "grinding" your dil each and every day on your main, I'm raking it in like crazy for hardly any effort with a fleet of marauder mules. If I want a ship I get it in a few days. But by all means, grind like the dickens for a whole month to do the same. I hear elite conduit and foundry is good for "grinding" that dil.
Don't listen to this guy telling you to wait to get your stuff. Instead of working harder, play smarter. And you'll get whatever you want in STO in hardly any time at all.
There are no regular free Tier 5 ships. Yes there are ways in which you can 'win' one if you're lucky, or you can save the ridiculous levels of EC to buy one off the exchange (But only if you've paid zen to remove the 10mill cap), but if you aren't spending money on the game, you're lumbered with what you're given when you hit level 40.
Personally, I don't mind having to pay a modest sum every now and then (Though as I've saved ~3,500 zen in about seven weeks via dilithium trading and surveys/adverts, it is unlikely I'll pay out much more than a single months subscription costs any time soon), as long as there's the option of supplementing bought zen with earned, I'm happy.
I'm sorry, but while you're being a chump "grinding" your dil each and every day on your main, I'm raking it in like crazy for hardly any effort with a fleet of marauder mules. If I want a ship I get it in a few days. But by all means, grind like the dickens for a whole month to do the same. I hear elite conduit and foundry is good for "grinding" that dil.
I know where to get the stuff, don't you worry. But I lack both time and motivation to grind foundry and STFs all day every day. During Season 6, I grinded enough STFs for set tokens, to last me a lifetime. About two or three times Conduit Elite per week is all I can stomach ever since then.
If you want to powergrind, by all means, go ahead. I'm taking the scenic route.
With STO being my first MMO, I am not completely up to date on all the terms. I was under the impression that "Pay-to-Win" means that to win any of the end game content, you need to pay real monies for the gear, or like in SWTOR you need to pay a membership fee to be able to even equip the gear needed to win the end game content.
I am disabled, and have no source of income. For that reason, I do like that STO gives me the chance to still acquire anything (aside from the veterans rewards) from the game. If my understanding about F2W is correct, then STO is free to win.
Here is why, I have a Roomie Engineer at level 50. I have the free Ha'Fa (not sure if it is spelled right) ship, 3 MK XI blue dual heavy cannons, and one MK XII purple dual heavy cannons on the front, with three turrets on the back. Two pieces of the Jhem space set from the episodes, and a purple MK XII Positronic Deflector (I think that is the name. The ones that give boost to shields)
In elite STFs, I can solo a regular cube, and survive. Also, I can handle myself, and usually end up helping someone else new to STFs, or they just got overwhelmed. Nothing on my ship came from the C-Store, nor is it required fleet gear. There are no end game content that I cannot do. Not including any PVP. I tried that a few times, but the other team kept camping our respawn point, and hitting us as soon as we spawned. So, I don't even waste time with it.
I did see that someone mentioned that if my Dilithium is converted to Zen, then I am P2W, or P2P because someone else payed for it. That, however, would be the same as someone with real monies to spend on Zen, but not the time to grind, trading their Zen for my Dil. Now, with the same view, you are saying that they grinned hours in the game, even though I did all the work.
I have had Zen from the surveys, and converted it to Dilithium before. But, that doesn't mean the person that traded the Dilithium for it did the survey.
Either way, the fact that you don't need C-Store ships to play STFs, or PVE makes the game truly free for those with little to no income. Also, being able to farm Dilithium to eventually get those ships if we want also makes it free for us.
I am thankful, though, to everyone who has spent their hard earned income on the game. If I had the money, I would be right there with you. But I in no way think you are lazy. I did have a job before getting injured, so I know that many don't have the time to spend that I now have. I am glad to do the grinding for Dilithium that you need.
Everyone is helping each other here. Those without the time, or patience to grind Dilithium can spend their hard earned monies on Zen, and those of us who cannot afford Zen can trade our hard earned Dilithium. It is a win-win for everyone.
Also, thank you PWE/Cryptic for making STO available to such a wide range of players around the world. If not for STO going free to play, I would have never been able to play it. I have wanted to play STO since before it first went live. Thanks to you, July of this year, I got my first chance. Thank you again.
Tim.
Leader of Elite Guardian Academy.Would you like to learn how to run a fleet? Would you like to know how to do ship builds (true budget as well as high end)?The join the Academy today!
There are no regular free Tier 5 ships. Yes there are ways in which you can 'win' one if you're lucky, or you can save the ridiculous levels of EC to buy one off the exchange (But only if you've paid zen to remove the 10mill cap), but if you aren't spending money on the game, you're lumbered with what you're given when you hit level 40.
Personally, I don't mind having to pay a modest sum every now and then (Though as I've saved ~3,500 zen in about seven weeks via dilithium trading and surveys/adverts, it is unlikely I'll pay out much more than a single months subscription costs any time soon), as long as there's the option of supplementing bought zen with earned, I'm happy.
Not sure what you consider to be tier 5 but consider this, I have two accounts. One is lifetime of which I buy Zen occasionally and one is f2p where I have not spent any money on anything, granted when pwe/Cryptic gives things away I grab them but here is the senario.
A friend and I tested pvp, several different ships and play styles for him, the same three shipsand play styles for me. We only tested one hour each test but that was for time sake
My ships and characters:
Fed LTS: Odyssey set
Rom LTS: Adapted Battle Cruiser
Fed F2P: Ambassador class Cruiser (last years anniversary ship)
The results, regardless of what ship he used and what tactics he used if I could beat him with the LTS characters I could beat him with my F2P character, likewise if I failed to beat him this the LTS characters the odds of me winning f2p mirrored them. The equipment means nothing if you don't have the skill to use it.
It is. The phrase implies that you can't win without paying money. And that is just plain wrong. You really don't have to if you don't want to.
It is not. The ability to Pay-To-Win exists, regardless of whether Play-To-Win is a viable option or not.
Of course, if it was just a matter of fairness, I can understand people taking different positions.
My concern comes from the perception that the developers are sacrificing the quality of the game in pursuit of maximizing the potential for P2W transactions.
Around 10,000 of that zen, hir was given without any grinding. Hir just existed at that time. Another 5,000 of that zen was before those items became zen and they were not that much of time cruncher to receive (except for the Delta Flyer, but I crafted six of them in a month and sold them), just by leveling.
I will give the lobi, but we just got 500 free lobi this past month. So the poster really didn't do hardcore grinding and since I am a casual player, except for a few items that I chose I don't care if I ever get, have the same. In fact, due to freebies given away, I have a few more items that hir doesn't own.
So, this thread is pretty much a bragging one about they got.
The ZEN you traded dilithium for was purchased by other players. Those other players apparently wanted dIlithium. Perhaps for contribution to fleet projects, and fleet class weaponry and equipment both ground and space.
To the deeper pockets go the goodies. If you ground out the dilithium to exchange for ZEN great wonderfull. Your very industrious. The folk selling ZEN for the most part likely have all the goodies they want from the ZEN store.. Now, thanks to you (buying thier zen) they don't even have to bother grinding Dilithium!
THEY paid to win. As for You? Your just contributing to their ability to get more stuff even faster.
So? By definition you sir(or maam as the case may be) have allowed yourself to be turned into an exploited worker! I hope its fun for you.
It's still pay to win. And its part and parcel of the "Perfect World" business model. They do it in all of their game titles in some form or another.
The ZEN you traded dilithium for was purchased by other players. Those other players apparently wanted dIlithium. Perhaps for contribution to fleet projects, and fleet class weaponry and equipment both ground and space.
To the deeper pockets go the goodies. If you ground out the dilithium to exchange for ZEN great wonderfull. Your very industrious. The folk selling ZEN for the most part likely have all the goodies they want from the ZEN store.. Now, thanks to you (buying thier zen) they don't even have to bother grinding Dilithium!
THEY paid to win. As for You? Your just contributing to their ability to get more stuff even faster.
So? By definition you sir(or maam as the case may be) have allowed yourself to be turned into an exploited worker! I hope its fun for you.
It's still pay to win. And its part and parcel of the "Perfect World" business model. They do it in all of their game titles in some form or another.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
The ZEN you traded dilithium for was purchased by other players. Those other players apparently wanted dIlithium. Perhaps for contribution to fleet projects, and fleet class weaponry and equipment both ground and space.
To the deeper pockets go the goodies. If you ground out the dilithium to exchange for ZEN great wonderfull. Your very industrious. The folk selling ZEN for the most part likely have all the goodies they want from the ZEN store.. Now, thanks to you (buying thier zen) they don't even have to bother grinding Dilithium!
THEY paid to win. As for You? Your just contributing to their ability to get more stuff even faster.
So? By definition you sir(or maam as the case may be) have allowed yourself to be turned into an exploited worker! I hope its fun for you.
If you mean that by participating in the Dil/Zen exchange, I'm contributing to keeping the game alive, then yes, you're quite right.
My wallet remains closed, though.
My concern comes from the perception that the developers are sacrificing the quality of the game in pursuit of maximizing the potential for P2W transactions.
This is my concern as well. The problem with P2W models is that the game is neglected in terms of quality and focuses on using human psychology to exploit addictive behavior for the purpose of making people grind or buy. They create a "need" in the player's mind for that ship, that item, and you jump on the hamster wheel and run until you've generated enough product for them to sell. What do you get? You get your reward of a shiny new item and nothing truly worthwhile to use it on because the game is rather shallow outside of the grind.
There's only so many times you can repeat an STF, Fleet Action, or other repeatable mission that provides desirable rewards before you just get sick of it.
Go here and show your support for a better Foundry!
You can get any ship you want without paying cash and can do it calmly and conveniently with little time investment. Just by logging in 3-4 times a day for about 5 minutes each, you'll have your new zen ship in a matter of a couple days. Don't even bother being patient. Get it now.
You can get any ship you want without paying cash and can do it calmly and conveniently with little time investment. Just by logging in 3-4 times a day for about 5 minutes each, you'll have your new zen ship in a matter of a couple days. Don't even bother being patient. Get it now.
Just sayin.
Well, that's rather vague. Unless you can provide details, I'll remain dubious.
Go here and show your support for a better Foundry!
I cannot control what you read into other people's posts. That is entirely up to yourself.
No, by wording your post in the manner that you did and by the title that you used, you are presenting it that way. Now, by defending what you wrote and putting the blame on others, I would say, that your post is very much a bragging post.
Comments
As for PvE, pay 2 win is more like pay to be first. A lot of PvE content rewards players who do the most DPS with best loot. Being able to fly a scimitar with all the latest gear that you bought at an expedited pace by funneling vast amounts of zen to fleets is paying to get ahead.
As for the people who grind away their lives ... I feel sad for you. It is one thing to play it because you love the game. But being a slave-wage laborer in the west is beyond ridiculous. Your time ... No matter who you are ... Is worth more than 50 cents an hour.
- Judge Aaron Satie
Took me about a year to get the Lobi for the Temporal Destroyer. Buying it from the exchange would've taken me two months, at the most. I went for the Lobi instead, simply because I was bored and because I could.
I've also purchased a few fleet items here and there and am currently saving up for the Tac consoles from the Fleet Spire.
I never said it's fast. In fact, I said it does take time.
So, STF's, Fleet Actions, Dailies, and so on are not a very enjoyable way to play this game and earn resources for new gear. It's drudgery, it's a chore. I'm sick of the borg STF's for instance, they're all pretty much the same. So are the fleet actions. The NPC's don't surprise you. They don't change tactics. They don't try to trick you into making a mistake. They don't think. They don't learn.
I guess what I'm saying is that this game needs more PvEvP. Give us some exploration with territory control. Exploration for the casual PvE fans and territory control for the PvP fans. Explorers find new planets and resources for their fleet and PvPers defend those new discoveries from other factions. So exploration creates persistent new points of interest with foundry missions attached to them, while the Feds, and the Klinks fight over control of the new-found territories. Now Feds have a reason to patrol. KDF can raid Fed Territory. Oh, and you can role play sub factions like the Maquis, Tal Shiar, or the Obsidian Order.
Liftime subs get zen every month, and they only pay once. That's where it would come from. This isn't battlestar galactica, where you have a selection of regular ammo or harder hitting ammo, and you don't have to level up your equipment to make it hit harder. Everything here is pretty cheap, except for a few select items on the exchange. You're guranteed dilithium and energy credits every single day, so you simply save what you earn in game and eventually you'll be at the same level as someone who got everything in 1 day with a credit card. So no, pay to win does NOT exist, because paying doesn't put you at a permanently higher level than just grinding it out. The only difference is that subs have a few more perks than ftp players.
So while my ship autopilots through sector space, I goof around in Fleet chat with my Fleet mates. It's quite relaxing, actually. Doesn't feel like work at all.
- Judge Aaron Satie
1) You will need to contribute a certain amount of marks daily for close to a month, for different individual reps in order to complete them.
2) To efficiently earn the marks, one will have to be proficient in at least a few end game contents such as Elite STFs, queued events, Dyson Space/Battlezone missions (the only exception here is Tagging Epohhs). These contents, though nothing like elite pvp matches, does prepare the players with some basic end-game skills (and teamwork)
3) Completing the reputations grant the players with various passive/active abilities that give them some cutting-edge over other players, they also unlock Rep stores that allow them to purchase end game gears that are important to remain competitive. Most of the Rep Gears cater to a certain play style so even when newer Rep gears are being introduced it doesn't force you to switch.
Ps: I am a F2P player, and I have spent very little on C-store items or lock box ships (most of my dilithium is spent on Rep gear). I used Freebie ships such as those given away in Events (Chel Grett, Risian Corvette, Odyssey, Bortas) along with rep gear for a long time.
Recently, due to the lobi store discount, I made an unprecedented purchase on a Temporal Destroyer and JHDC on the exchange. Frankly speaking I do not see myself commanding a significant advantage as compared to using freebie ships. They do add a lot more variety to my play style though, which can be fun.
So I agree with some of you that the game is largely Pay-to-Customize. It does has some degree of P2W, but the advantage you gain is quite minimal, and you can only tell when 2 players of similar skills compete.
There are no regular free Tier 5 ships. Yes there are ways in which you can 'win' one if you're lucky, or you can save the ridiculous levels of EC to buy one off the exchange (But only if you've paid zen to remove the 10mill cap), but if you aren't spending money on the game, you're lumbered with what you're given when you hit level 40.
Personally, I don't mind having to pay a modest sum every now and then (Though as I've saved ~3,500 zen in about seven weeks via dilithium trading and surveys/adverts, it is unlikely I'll pay out much more than a single months subscription costs any time soon), as long as there's the option of supplementing bought zen with earned, I'm happy.
That there is the key difference. You can earn practically anything in the game free. But the difference is how long it's going to take. I have friends that of course play strictly free and it takes them forever to buy, for example, that 1 C-Store or Lobi ship. I applaud their patience and ability to earn it the slow, free way and keeping focused on what they're trying to get.
But with paying, you are getting the best stuff.
NOW
Wow only 82775 zen. And refining 8000 dil a day, at an exchange rate of 132 dil to 1 zen gives you 61 dil a day. At that rate, if you never miss a day, you can get those ships and items above in only 1135 days. Only 3 years!
I'm sorry, but while you're being a chump "grinding" your dil each and every day on your main, I'm raking it in like crazy for hardly any effort with a fleet of marauder mules. If I want a ship I get it in a few days. But by all means, grind like the dickens for a whole month to do the same. I hear elite conduit and foundry is good for "grinding" that dil.
Don't listen to this guy telling you to wait to get your stuff. Instead of working harder, play smarter. And you'll get whatever you want in STO in hardly any time at all.
I think you're misunderstanding what falls under the T5 category. Here is a helpful STO wiki page to illustrate what's T5 and what's not.
This true the romulan ships by far have the best bang for your buck and in many ways they out class almost all other vessels in the game.
Permanence is no more a prerequisite than being forced to buy.
If you want to powergrind, by all means, go ahead. I'm taking the scenic route.
I am disabled, and have no source of income. For that reason, I do like that STO gives me the chance to still acquire anything (aside from the veterans rewards) from the game. If my understanding about F2W is correct, then STO is free to win.
Here is why, I have a Roomie Engineer at level 50. I have the free Ha'Fa (not sure if it is spelled right) ship, 3 MK XI blue dual heavy cannons, and one MK XII purple dual heavy cannons on the front, with three turrets on the back. Two pieces of the Jhem space set from the episodes, and a purple MK XII Positronic Deflector (I think that is the name. The ones that give boost to shields)
In elite STFs, I can solo a regular cube, and survive. Also, I can handle myself, and usually end up helping someone else new to STFs, or they just got overwhelmed. Nothing on my ship came from the C-Store, nor is it required fleet gear. There are no end game content that I cannot do. Not including any PVP. I tried that a few times, but the other team kept camping our respawn point, and hitting us as soon as we spawned. So, I don't even waste time with it.
I did see that someone mentioned that if my Dilithium is converted to Zen, then I am P2W, or P2P because someone else payed for it. That, however, would be the same as someone with real monies to spend on Zen, but not the time to grind, trading their Zen for my Dil. Now, with the same view, you are saying that they grinned hours in the game, even though I did all the work.
I have had Zen from the surveys, and converted it to Dilithium before. But, that doesn't mean the person that traded the Dilithium for it did the survey.
Either way, the fact that you don't need C-Store ships to play STFs, or PVE makes the game truly free for those with little to no income. Also, being able to farm Dilithium to eventually get those ships if we want also makes it free for us.
I am thankful, though, to everyone who has spent their hard earned income on the game. If I had the money, I would be right there with you. But I in no way think you are lazy. I did have a job before getting injured, so I know that many don't have the time to spend that I now have. I am glad to do the grinding for Dilithium that you need.
Everyone is helping each other here. Those without the time, or patience to grind Dilithium can spend their hard earned monies on Zen, and those of us who cannot afford Zen can trade our hard earned Dilithium. It is a win-win for everyone.
Also, thank you PWE/Cryptic for making STO available to such a wide range of players around the world. If not for STO going free to play, I would have never been able to play it. I have wanted to play STO since before it first went live. Thanks to you, July of this year, I got my first chance. Thank you again.
Tim.
Not sure what you consider to be tier 5 but consider this, I have two accounts. One is lifetime of which I buy Zen occasionally and one is f2p where I have not spent any money on anything, granted when pwe/Cryptic gives things away I grab them but here is the senario.
A friend and I tested pvp, several different ships and play styles for him, the same three shipsand play styles for me. We only tested one hour each test but that was for time sake
My ships and characters:
Fed LTS: Odyssey set
Rom LTS: Adapted Battle Cruiser
Fed F2P: Ambassador class Cruiser (last years anniversary ship)
The results, regardless of what ship he used and what tactics he used if I could beat him with the LTS characters I could beat him with my F2P character, likewise if I failed to beat him this the LTS characters the odds of me winning f2p mirrored them. The equipment means nothing if you don't have the skill to use it.
It is not. The ability to Pay-To-Win exists, regardless of whether Play-To-Win is a viable option or not.
Of course, if it was just a matter of fairness, I can understand people taking different positions.
My concern comes from the perception that the developers are sacrificing the quality of the game in pursuit of maximizing the potential for P2W transactions.
I will give the lobi, but we just got 500 free lobi this past month. So the poster really didn't do hardcore grinding and since I am a casual player, except for a few items that I chose I don't care if I ever get, have the same. In fact, due to freebies given away, I have a few more items that hir doesn't own.
So, this thread is pretty much a bragging one about they got.
I use the Fleet T'varo on my Romulan Tac.
I've never heard of the Submarine effect, what is it?
You seem to have missed somethng important.
The ZEN you traded dilithium for was purchased by other players. Those other players apparently wanted dIlithium. Perhaps for contribution to fleet projects, and fleet class weaponry and equipment both ground and space.
To the deeper pockets go the goodies. If you ground out the dilithium to exchange for ZEN great wonderfull. Your very industrious. The folk selling ZEN for the most part likely have all the goodies they want from the ZEN store.. Now, thanks to you (buying thier zen) they don't even have to bother grinding Dilithium!
THEY paid to win. As for You? Your just contributing to their ability to get more stuff even faster.
So? By definition you sir(or maam as the case may be) have allowed yourself to be turned into an exploited worker! I hope its fun for you.
It's still pay to win. And its part and parcel of the "Perfect World" business model. They do it in all of their game titles in some form or another.
This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Perfect World Entertainment Community Rules and Policies. ~BranFlakes
- Judge Aaron Satie
Nope, I just got a different view on things.
If you mean that by participating in the Dil/Zen exchange, I'm contributing to keeping the game alive, then yes, you're quite right.
My wallet remains closed, though.
And that is why your post is very misleading.
Yeah. "Pay to win doesn't exist, because you could get it all through this insanely long grind. No, I haven't done it myself, but I've heard...."
:rolleyes:
This is my concern as well. The problem with P2W models is that the game is neglected in terms of quality and focuses on using human psychology to exploit addictive behavior for the purpose of making people grind or buy. They create a "need" in the player's mind for that ship, that item, and you jump on the hamster wheel and run until you've generated enough product for them to sell. What do you get? You get your reward of a shiny new item and nothing truly worthwhile to use it on because the game is rather shallow outside of the grind.
There's only so many times you can repeat an STF, Fleet Action, or other repeatable mission that provides desirable rewards before you just get sick of it.
Just sayin.
Well, that's rather vague. Unless you can provide details, I'll remain dubious.
No, by wording your post in the manner that you did and by the title that you used, you are presenting it that way. Now, by defending what you wrote and putting the blame on others, I would say, that your post is very much a bragging post.