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Whats the point of science veseels when carriers exist?
miirik
Member Posts: 483 Arc User
I been asking about science vessels a lot lately and their viability. Tonight I was looking at stats and I noticed that with the majority of carriers available, they carry a commander-rank science bridge officer slot, in the Recluse's case, it has a lt. cmd science station and a universal cmd station to be filled with another science officer if you wish (and an ensign one too).
So it got me to wondering, what does a dedicated science vessel have to offer me over a carrier? While science vessels have the strongest shields in average, they have weak to middling hulls. They are a little more agile but then most carrier are sporting between 10k-15k more hull than a science vessels and have decent shield modifiers to top it off. Carriers also have fighters of some sort to launch from hangars.
As much as I hated my vo'quv for being a flying brick, the thing was incredibly hard to kill, could just deal out absolutely tons of damage over time because of it's endurance to stick around and being able to throw out GW3. In crystal catastrophe I would park myself, launch fighters, throw out GW3, then do a very slow turning game for each shield face to take CE hits, not to mention it could handle the CE explosions at 66 and 33 and not be 1-shotted. It's gotten me first place more than once in the past, and I didn't really use any sets on it except for breen, and I didn't have any sort of idea of proper gearing at the time as well. No purple weapons, barely any consoles at all, etc.
Convince me why to take a proper science vessel over a carrier.
So it got me to wondering, what does a dedicated science vessel have to offer me over a carrier? While science vessels have the strongest shields in average, they have weak to middling hulls. They are a little more agile but then most carrier are sporting between 10k-15k more hull than a science vessels and have decent shield modifiers to top it off. Carriers also have fighters of some sort to launch from hangars.
As much as I hated my vo'quv for being a flying brick, the thing was incredibly hard to kill, could just deal out absolutely tons of damage over time because of it's endurance to stick around and being able to throw out GW3. In crystal catastrophe I would park myself, launch fighters, throw out GW3, then do a very slow turning game for each shield face to take CE hits, not to mention it could handle the CE explosions at 66 and 33 and not be 1-shotted. It's gotten me first place more than once in the past, and I didn't really use any sets on it except for breen, and I didn't have any sort of idea of proper gearing at the time as well. No purple weapons, barely any consoles at all, etc.
Convince me why to take a proper science vessel over a carrier.
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Science vessels are a very different breed. Look at a good Wells or Vesta in action and you'll see them doing as much damage with their weapons as their sci abilities. They're right in there with the escorts tossing out grav wells and drains and gunning down targets with BO and CRF. Also theyre not "a little" more agile. They are a lot more agile than the vast majority of carriers
Also, you haven't said you have actually used any other sci-type vessels (non-carrier). I'd recommend trying out a couple, and seeing what your experiences are with it.
About the only advice I can offer right now, as my non-carrier sci vessel experience, is limited, as my Fed Sci, I've been sticking in cruisers, and my 2nd, isn't L50 yet. Only L50 Sci I have, is my KDF gal, in a MU Vo'Quv (and yes, that thing IS a beast. Low damage outright, but so hard to kill, it's eventually going to get it's due, hehe)
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Temperance Brennan, "A building"
- Judge Aaron Satie
Case in point: The Galaxy-class cruiser.
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If your goal is to simply do as much unfocussed DPS as possible then with the right equipment and build a scimitar or recluse are in most situations the two ships to consider.
If your goal is to do as much focused DPS as possible then an escort, destroyer or battlecruser might be your go to ships.
If your goal is to heal and support, or tank as much as possible then a sci-cruser is the best choice.
If your goal is to use as many offensive science abilities, as often as possible, with the greatest possible effect, then a dedicated science ship is the ship of choice.
Now the following are the ships with the greatest potential to dedicate to science:
Wells Temporal Science Vessel: 11 potential science abilities, 4 science consoles.
Voth Palisade Science Vessel: 9 potential science abilities, 5 science consoles.
Multi-Mission Surveillance Explorer: 8 potential science abilities, 5 science consoles.
Fleet Long Range Science Vessel Retrofit: 8 potential science abilities, 4 science consoles.
Tholian Orb Weaver: 8 potential science abilities, 4 science consoles.
Tholian Recluse Carrier: 8 potential science abilities, 4 science consoles.
To make the list a ship needed to be capable of fielding a minimum of 8 science abilities and 4 science consoles.
There are many science ships that are limited to 7 science abilities. These ships can be fantastic fun, and can be built competitively, but being one ability short of 8 puts them in a position where either sci-escorts, sci-cruisers or science ships (with an extra ability slot) are often able to outperform them in which ever role their build is purposed for.
A very general rule of thumb for an efficient sci build is to use two tactical abilities for tactical team, two engineering abilities for tanking or mobility, and two science abilities for tanking. This leaves 6 abilities for offensive science. generally this will be two copies of three different abilities so as to ensure the greatest possible ability up time.
Duty officers are often used to enhance otherwise week science powers, or to provide rapid projectile re-fire rate and thus allow the science ship to forgo high weapons power.
ideally all 6 offensive powers chosen will be enhanced by the same governing captain skill. This allows all science console slots to be dedicated to enhancing them.
One example would be to slot a full rack of flow capacity consoles and use tykens rift, energy syphon and tachyon/tractor beam (with shield drain doff). This with polaron weapons and the science ships built in sub system targeting, and possibly a plasmonic leach, will enable a science ship to get the greatest possible effect from its flow capacitors.
Now not all science abilities synergize so well with other science powers as they do with tactical ones. when these powers are to be used a hybrid ship is often more desirable then a dedicated science ship.
Example: Gravity Well + Scatter Volley + Attack Patern Beta + Torpedo spread.
This combination works fantastically, but while the science ability requires a commander or lt. commander slot, additional offensive science powers might not be as useful as more defensive science/engineering powers to survive the agro such an ability combination would draw.
That said, outside of the 2 hangars, there is one huge, fundamental difference between Carriers and dedicated SCI Vessels. Their turn rates. Except for the Kar'Fi (and Kar'Fi has no subsystem targeting), they all have very low turn rates. They all fall between 5-6 turn rates, with the Kar'Fi considered very nimble at 8 (pays for it with lower hull). Dedicating BOFF space for better turns is a hindrance to the ENG stations already that need to cater to power and repairs. There's a number of Science skills for BOFFs & Sci Captains that are forward arc focused. If the fight gets to the flank or rear of the carrier, it has to expend far more effort than normal to bring that forward arc to bear on the target. Regular science vessels don't really have this maneuverability problem.
A small difference is the shield mods. There's a number of them that are Cruiser level shield mods like the Vo'Quv and don't approach regular Sci Vessel mods. The Recluse and Obelisk are the exception.
Another very minor difference is dedication to Science via Consoles. No Carrier has 5 SCI Console slots. 4 is the highest any of them have. They oftenly balance out with ENG Consoles because the survivability is needed from being targeted so much. Hell, the Adv.Obelisk has 5 ENG Consoles.
Also in the realm of PVP, they tend to get targeted. ALOT. Which may or may not be what you're looking for :cool: Carriers tend to be centerpieces of a group, which is why they are gunned for so much.
All science vessels are science ships, but not all science ships are science vessels.
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That thread is well past its expiration date so don't reply to it, but several people made impassioned arguments in favor of science ships therein.
Personally... I wasn't convinced. In my mind Recluse is the best ship in the game if you want to do some hardcore science and be a real asset to your team.
really hard to actually prove this point when the ships are virtually identical in every aspect but 2.
http://sto.gamepedia.com/Fleet_Science_Vessel_Retrofit
http://sto.gamepedia.com/Wells_Temporal_Science_Vessel
on paper the wells is even tiny bit better with the ensign engi and potential ltd engi.
i'd call the fleet nova "a poor man's wells"
on topic: i think sci vessels are in desperate need of a buff...they don't offer anything for PVE especially that a sci heavy escort can't provide while doing the necessary dmg to compete.
and in PVP they don't offer anything certain carriers can't already provide.
a few things i think sci vessels need:
1) 360 degree turret like beams, so that rather nimble sci vessel can use DBB front.
2) 1 additional weapon slot...maybe a rear one for dedicated mines and instead of target subsystem, dispersal pattern powers.
more active mines...something like the turret consumables as mines, usable for sci vessels only.
3) target subsystem available to cannons too
Dont overlook the Fleet Nova with it's LT CMDR Tac station. As a single cannon turret build with TT1,CSV,CRF it is a nimble little gunner. Also I have seen players using Nukara 3 piece set with the Nukara DBB, Fleet Tetryon or Tholian Tetryon DBB and a Torp. With 2 BA and the Web mine in the back. The can run TT1,THY,BO3. Or replace the Torp with another DBB and run TT1,BO2,BO3. With the Sci stations this ship and do great CC and have enough self heals to tank well.
I personally used Romulan plasma. 2 DBB and Romulan Torp and 3 BA's. With Romulan plasma and 4 Sci consoles and 3 Tac consoles I can stack XII VR Embassy Sci consoles (Particle Gens for DOT buff) with %9.6 boost to plasma each plus 3 XII VR Plasma Tac consoles thats 7 consoles to boost the weapon damage. Add some Torp cooldown doffs, some GW and Particle damage doffs and you are set. So if you are a Sci Captian and dont yet have the Fleet Nova it's not a bad choice at all.
As for Sci ships in general what has always been my issue with them is the 3/3 weapon set. Thats why a lot of Sci Captians in STF's and other content that needs firepower use a MVAE or Breen Crusier or Mobius, any ship that has a LT CMDR Science but has 4/4 or 4/3 weapons and at least 4 Tac consoles. I personally want a 4/4 Sci ship with at least a LT CMDR Tac and 4 Tac Consoles.
something like this:
LT CMDR TAC
LT CMDR ENG
LT SCI
CMDR SCI
ENS UNI
consoles: 4 Tac, 4 Sci, 2 Eng
weapons 4/4
or the Boff seating of the Wells just on a ship with 4 Tac Consoles and 4/4 or 4/3 weapons
Durr Stahl seems to think that science ships have more utility than their science carrier cousins, which in the majority of cases is simply not true.
Sounds like dedicated science ships need a buff, not their abilities (though I hear they been nerfed to a whisper of what they once were, looking at you GW3).
On the other hand a pure science vessel will be more offensive, with more emphasis on things like tractor beam and siphon instead of running 2x sci team and 2x hazard emitters. They need faster turn-rate to get the deflector into position and to stay within 5k of a target. Just a totally different style and setup.
Spend more time with them, develop strategies around them, you'll see the differences
Could I get some clarity on these acronyms? TT1? BO2/3? BA'S? THY?
Mind you I'm KDF so all your MVAE and such don't mean jack to me. I'm personally looking into the fleet varanus
PvP, every time I take my Atrox out, I wish I hadn't. Somebody drowns me in EWP which wrecks both me and my pets. I'm too big to rely on EM+HE to break out of it, often times my fat butt is still in the EWP when the HE breaks. No AP:O to just ignore it. Even a Bortasqu' can win in a dogfight. Turn doesn't mean nearly as much when you shoot beams in PvE, but trying to catch somebody who is running, or get out of a hazard yourself, all that turn, speed, and inertia are more then just mere convenience.
Personally, I don't like pure sci ships. I prefer a heavy sci escort, cruiser, or carrier instead. However, pure sci ships have their place. I think they may still be a bit behind the curve, but there is most certainly a noticeable difference in playstyle between a sci carrier and a sci ship.
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
Carriers lean towards a engineering-science heavy style of gameplay, one emphasized by tanking and support, with the exception to the Kar'fi and JHDC, which are more focused on DPS.
They have a lot more engineering and science consoles and BOff slots and generally leave the DPS to their hangars or their team.
Science Vessels lean towards a heavy science style of gameplay, with offensive support and debuffing. They're very versatile in theory, but a lot of the science powers have been nerfed, this leaves a lot of the ships obsolete compared to other ships. However, the Wells, Palisade, Vesta, and Fleet Nova (Fleet Varanus and Orb Weaver as well, maybe) are probably the best science vessels in game, since they offer good DPS, support, and tanking.
I personally use the Fleet Nova, and I prefer it compared to the FHEC and FAHC that I have.
The combination of support, defense, and DPS all make it an extremely capable ship.
EM? HE? AP:O? I hate to keep asking these questions, but I must learn. You guys should make a big "ACRONYMS OF STAR TREK ONLINE" in the wiki or stickied thread or something.
Sounds like you haven't used many science vessels. I use a mirror science vessel and I make the leader board all the time.
The exotic damage used by science, can out dps alot of tac ships(at least my ship). The hull strength may be low, but the play style is different then other ships. Our natural abilities help out on our survival. The science abilities that come with any science ship is also very useful, for the different abilities that other races have, you can knock out their special abilities or resistances and cut them down quick.
Alot of the times, from the damage I do, I have my vessel set up as a healer for most of my abilities for PVE ques and still end up doing my fare share of damage, while keeping my teammates alive. When I got myself the Mark12 purple weapons, it made a little dent in my damage, from standard gear.
I know alot of other science players that will only use science vessels in PVP, and they can bring the pain pretty good.
On my Romulan engineer I use a Guardian Warbird. I use this ship for a tank. This ship is basically a science ship as well with different stats, totally! I used the Obilsk Carrier before I got the Guardian. Its play style is totally different.
I would say alot of it is your personal taste and what appeals to you. They seem to all have their place.
TY for sharing
AP:O = Attack Pattern: Omega - A kitchen sink tactical boff skill that, among other things, grants immunity to movement debuffs
EM = Evasive Manuvers - push button, go fast, turn better, defense buff.
HE = Hazard Emitters - Clears Hazard debuffs, resistance buff, hull heal over time.
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
I think you missed the point on Carriers.
What are the traits of a science vessel outside of the sci-heavy BOFF stations?
1. Sensor Analysis
2. Inherent Subsystem Targeting
3. Higher boost from Aux Power for Stealth Detection.
Quite a bit of the Carriers for the KDF, the Atrox, and non-faction ones have all 3 of these.
The JHDC & KDF Kar'Fi lacks the Subsystem Targeting. Not quite sure of the JHDC has the bonus for stealth detection either. Been a while since I used mine.
Vo'Quv and Mirror Vo'Quv both have the "science ship" flag but they are radically different. Mirror does not have the lower-tier science slots necessary to provide standoff support, and has to be flown differently as a result. And the Mirror is not really a science ship either, it just happens to have a single Cmdr Sci slot and the science-ship bits.
Apparently it /has/ been quite a while, or you'd remember that the Jemnaught does indeed have built in subtargeting.
Same goes with escorts/tactical ships and cruisers/engineering ships.
Missed the point? No, I got it. But I wasn't addressing the point. It's only semantics, I know. But semantics are an important way to clearly define stuff.
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2. I own a vesta (Multimission Recon Explorer http://sto.gamepedia.com/Multi-Mission_Reconnaissance_Explorer) and can say it's a Escort/Science ships hybrid. The added hangar is for extra DPS.:D If I'm not piloting my JHDC, then I'm in my Vesta. My Atrox and Obelisk will never see the light of day again :mad:
3. The JHDC (Jem'Hadar Dreadnought Carrier, for our new STO players), is a unique offensive Tactical carrier (when compared to the other engineering/Science/support carriers in the game). The only other carrier that's "unique" is the Recluse. It's Bridge Officer layout is to die for. Because of it's BOFF layout, you can do almost anything with it. In my opionion it's the best carrier in the game solely because of it's BOFF.
4. The last reason Science ships exists is for "variety". I say Variety in quotation marks because we all know all the ships overlap. Not every science ship is unique in it's own way. Now Cryptic is focused on causal gamers (not us hardcore Trek Fans). Cryptic has been hearing us (hard core fans) complain about science ships for a long time. But I know they won't do anything about it because they don't want to loose so many casual gamer's. If a Viral Matrix can make an opposing ship attack it's team mates for 1 whole minute, the casual gamer's would raise hell. But when you use it against the NPC, it's effect lasts for 1 second. Then you can't use it again.
Because of the constant disrespect for Science ships, their's not much reason to use them. They have amazing abilities (just read the tooltips) but those abilities aren't even usable in a fight (the exception is Gravity Well). That is one reason my Atrox is covered in spider webs and dust.
Uhm, carriers have no sensor analysis, "only" sub system targeting
In PvP I never see any science ships except lock boxes or Vesta. in PvE science vessels are also extremely rare ... Though I may have seen a Nova before as well as the intrepid. The people have spoken and sorry to tell you but neither of those ships is all that popular.
- Judge Aaron Satie
I stand corrected.
Ha, it has been forever since I flew my JHDC
Anyways, though Carriers can get pretty high in Science Potential, it is only the Atrox and a SCI dedicated Recluse that can rack up enough high ranking SCI abilities. And no Carrier has 5 SCI Consoles, 4 at best. Those 5 SCI Consoles can be used to really put some better effects on those abilities, in the same way 5 TAC Consoles are looked at vs 4.
It's because of Cryptic and its Power Creep Progression. The Sci Vessels that I actually saw more in PVP are the Fed Wells, which is IMHO, an Escort masquerading with the benefits of a SCI Vessel. The Korath for the KDF is for some reason, very rarely seen in play. In a match, you're guaranteed to see a Wells in there, sometimes more. But on the "Red" side of the Neutral Zone, the Korath is barely flown.
Well, I wouldn't say that, the Wells is just a Fleet Nova with Ensign Engineering instead of Ensign Science and two universal slots. The Nova also loses 2,610 hull and 0.02 shields compared to the wells. Honestly I think Cryptic should have bumped up the Nova's hull by +1000 when they fixed the ship before, but that's just me. I have the same feeling about the Fleet Escort Retrofit and the Fleet Heavy Cruiser Retrofit, Cryptic intentionally gave all three ships bad hull and shield mods. They fixed the shield mods, but not the hull mods.
I'm also of the opinion that the Fleet Nova is superior to the Vesta in several ways. Many of times in PvP, I've tried to pull off maneuvers I'm capable of doing with my Nova, and they fail miserably. The Nova stops on a dime, the Vesta power slides for a second or two. The graceful turn rate is also one of the Nova's defining features.
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