I've been using the experimental proton weapon for weeks, and in a nutshell, it low damage output makes it impractical for all opponents besides Voth.
On my Mobius Destroyer, my Advanced Fleet AP DHC's hit for 1550+ DPS. However, the experimental proton weapon only hovers around 900DPS. When I swapped one of my AP DHC's out for an experimental proton weapon, my ship ended up losing both DPS and burst damage, even with the gravimetric torpedo and matching proton particle converter console. The 50% proc rate on a critical hit does not provide sufficient performance to warrant replacing the Fleet AP DHC with an Experimental Proton Weapon.
Conclusion: If your ship is running fleet weapons and gear, then the Experimental Proton Weapon is probably not worth equipping since you will be sacrificing damage output againt all non-Voth opponents. If facing a Voth opponent, then you will probably break even, but if you are not seeing any significant improvement, then why bother with the Experimental Proton Weapon in the first place???
The Exp. Proton Weapon does have one advantage: it has a very high rate of fire -- fast enough to prevent battle-cloak ships from being able to disengage at will.
Or you could use the console+torp for the 2-pc and get the crit buff without losing the DHC damage
I don't actually have any consoles I'm really willing to give up. I'm in a JHEC using Plasma. My Tac slots all have purple Mk XIIs, my Sci slots have two Mk XII +Pla consoles, and my Eng slots has the Leech, the Tachyokinetic Converter, the Assimilated, and the Zero-Point.
The Protonic Arsenal console boosts Proton damage as well, so the only benefit would be just the 2-item set bonus.
Giving up a DHC isn't that bad, since the power drain goes from 12 to 5, giving an extra 14% damage to all weapons. I also appreciate the arc of 180 degrees instead of 45 degrees, especially when the Voth spawn around me, or when the Voth disable my engines, or when I have to circle around their invulnerable shields.
If I was really concerned about the loss of a DHC, I'd toss it aft. As it stands, I don't mind it. It works with my two copies of CSV too.
When I swapped one of my AP DHC's out for an experimental proton weapon, my ship ended up losing both DPS and burst damage, even with the gravimetric torpedo and matching proton particle converter console. The 50% proc rate on a critical hit does not provide sufficient performance to warrant replacing the Fleet AP DHC with an Experimental Proton Weapon.
That's odd, I'm running Advanced Fleet Plasma (ACC x2) DHCs, and parsing three eSTFs all gave me a total increase of around 1k DPS compared to average of 12 previous runs. The weapon itself does less damage than a DHC, so it's not the firing arc that improved, hm. Perhaps it depends on our Crit Chance/Severity?
I don't actually have any consoles I'm really willing to give up. I'm in a JHEC using Plasma. My Tac slots all have purple Mk XIIs, my Sci slots have two Mk XII +Pla consoles, and my Eng slots has the Leech, the Tachyokinetic Converter, the Assimilated, and the Zero-Point.
I replaced the Zero-Point on my fleet defiant. The 2-pc bonus from the console gives more Crth than the Zero-Point, so even though its only a small improvement its better than giving up one of my guns. Irritating to do, but better is better.
That's odd, I'm running Advanced Fleet Plasma (ACC x2) DHCs, and parsing three eSTFs all gave me a total increase of around 1k DPS compared to average of 12 previous runs. The weapon itself does less damage than a DHC, so it's not the firing arc that improved, hm. Perhaps it depends on our Crit Chance/Severity?
That is quite possible. AFAIK, plasma weapons are not as crit-dependent since their DoT damage isn't modified by critical hits. Non-Voth antiproton weapons, on the other hand, take full advantage of increasing critical hit rates and severity because of their inherent +20 [CrtD] modifier.
My Mobius build is presently running +25% accuracy, +14% critical chance, and +118% critical severity. I'm considering cranking the last number to +133%, but this means losing the Tipler Cylinder Temporal Backstep. Combine the above with Advanced Fleet AP-DHC's, and now we're looking at +148 or +178 crit-severity, ignoring additional accuracy critical modifiers. The Chroniton Beam Array gets to +188. Yep, those crits are gonna hurt!
they could improve weapon a lot if they make beam/cannon damage consoles to work on it
Agreed -- since the Experimental Proton Weapon is supposed to have both beam and cannon properties, it is reasonable to allow cannon or beam consoles to boost its damage output. That, or simply give the weapon a significant damage boost, from 900dps to 1200dps.
they could improve weapon a lot if they make beam/cannon damage consoles to work on it
Would make a huge difference if they would. I didn't test it out with the new fleet consoles on tribble since I couldn't find a fleet there with access to the new stuff. My above suggestion got shot to hell, but it's good you pointed that out.
So if it doesn't work with cannon or beam consoles, what weapon category does the ExPW belong to?
I aquired this weapon. I tested it out. When i fire it it fires 5 times. Against the borg i was scoring between 600 and 900 damage for each discharge. so even if i lowball it i was getting 3000 damage for the while cycle. and using beam overload i pulled out a 70k crit. Its an odd weapon but it does work on borg as well.
Agreed -- since the Experimental Proton Weapon is supposed to have both beam and cannon properties, it is reasonable to allow cannon or beam consoles to boost its damage output. That, or simply give the weapon a significant damage boost, from 900dps to 1200dps.
dps boost can work to but then they would need to reduce fire arc to 45 like dhc have and i li be hapy to make this trade to lose fire arc to gain some real dps on it
I see some people saying the Experimental Proton Weapon is useless, but its only useless if one does not use the whole set and if ones tries to use it for a build or even ship its not good for.
Ships/Builds its good for.
Any cruiser/science ship with only two tac slots and that uses single cannons and turrets. The buff to other weapon systems is greater then the dps lost on the one weapon.
Photon focused Torpedo boats.
Small Craft (I have a small craft Protonic Dyson To'duj build in the Klingon Fleet Yards)
Builds that focus on low Weapons Power.
Also the Romulan Plasma Consoles add 2.5 plasma burn proc each, which dovetails well with the high fire rate. I have three.
Also if versitility is really important to you, this is a good weapon.
Also if your a Captain that has one too many tac ensigns this could be a good weapon, stick Beam Overload in that slot.
What its bad for is your average Escort type build, its bad for Beam Boats, if you don't like photon torpedoes, if you have a 5 tac console ships, 4 tac slot ships, iffy on 3 tac slot ships. So its not for everyone.
That's a big difference between useless and simply useless to you.
And don't get snotty at one who uses the Experimental Proton Weapon, there are builds ships that suit it, I happen to have one.
Its for torpedo boats. Also, the protonic proc does the same damage regardless of your tac console, so its best used on ships that don't use +energy weapon consoles.... like torpedo boats.
You can get some insane torp damage with +photon tac consoles, 2-piece honor guard/adapted maco, the 3-piece experimental proton set, and the ferengi lobi console. The experimental proton weapon can also use beam overload, giving you a shield stripper for your torpedos.
While the weapon does allow a Sci to deliver the innate subsystems ability and the +10% Critical Chance with Photon Projectile weapons and +10% Critical Severity, I have found it, as the third part of a set, not worthy on a strong torpedo boat (an all torpedo boat except for the Experimental Weapon using full Aux) that I run.
While you crit more using the 3 piece set with photon torpedoes you still have to bypass shields. Perhaps a Tac will have better luck dealing the raw damage to bypass shields, but as a Sci I have had none.
I've tried all photon torp builds (even before this set came out) on my Risan corvette. RSV, and Intrepid refit (LRSV) as well as continuous (photon) damage/burst damage builds on each of those ships using the entire set. I've tried running a drain (Tach. Beam and Energy Siphon) build with all sci embassy flowcaps in the sci console slots using the aforementioned weapons platforms (I have 4 points in flowcaps but do not want to respec-this was the character I made so I'll have to live by my choice).
I've really wanted a Federation all photon torpedo boat to work, especially being a Fed Sci, for roleplay and quasi-canon purposes, but plasma torpedoes and their shield-bypassing and stacking ability still kills quicker.
If a weaken version of the shield-bypassing rift ability of the gravemetric torpedo could be transferred to other photon torpedoes then, perhaps, photons and this set could be competitive for me and this weapon could be useful to this Fed. Sci.
And as a stand alone weapon I have found no real value to it. It's 180 degree arc does it a disservice for me. It would take the place of a torpedo on a strong torpedo boat or a 360 device or array on an energy weapon ship if I pilot one, and the former options are better than the Experimental Weapon.
If someone can get it to work for their build and play-style, great.
Voth Antiproton is available from lockboxes or on the Exchange, they are not Dyson weapons they are VOTH weapons.
Dyson weapons are Protonic Polarons, they are NOT Voth weapons.
Moving on.
I have Protonic Polarons and the Full Dyson Weapon set, along with 3 of the 4 pieces of the Space set. And some of the consoles available for free from the rep that you get in those little boxes.
I tossed it all on my Oddy adding in only three consoles. An assimilated Module, a Nukara Particle Converter AND only one Mk X GREEN Polaraon Phase Modulator.
This set properly used and buffed and worked it does AS MUCH damage as my overspecialized phaser or antiproton build, and those are made to gain as much damage as possible out of themselves.
They do quite a lot of damage properly buffed out. And like all dual proc weapons you choose to argue over whats better.
Well here you go, get the protonic polaron weapons with CritH and CritD. And more of the other consoles from the Dyson Rep. Fool around with it a tad, and you will see it is actually quite good, especially if you are getting a lot of critical hits.
There. now you know and knowing is half the battle.
Inertia just means you can do Powerslides in you carrier!
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I really have no idea why people believe that the tac consoles add much damage. 7-8% total increase, last I checked. Four 2.5% Acc mods should do at least that much extra damage if not more, especially in PvP...
[EDIT]
Also, the proc is based on criticals, so if your crit chance is high, your proc rate is going to be high. If you're hitting on alpha for a 25% crit rate, it means that one out of every sixteen hits will proc -- more than twice as often as a normal weapon proc.
And yet the Critical Severity of Anti-Proton would hit EVERY critical hit and would total up FAR more damage... Oops. Fail.
I tossed it all on my Oddy adding in only three consoles. An assimilated Module, a Nukara Particle Converter AND only one Mk X GREEN Polaraon Phase Modulator.
Try the 3 Part Romulan Plasma set instead. With Hull Melt, the disruptor proc, the plasma burn proc, and the ever hammering torpedoes you will do far more damage than this set will generate.
A big problem with the Polarons again is that Polarons are worthless if they are not used in conjunction with an Energy Drain build. That is their function. Without that sort of build that proc will never do you any good. The burn from the Proton proc is just too low to even begin to keep up with Disruptor proc.
While the weapon does allow a Sci to deliver the innate subsystems ability and the +10% Critical Chance with Photon Projectile weapons and +10% Critical Severity, I have found it, as the third part of a set, not worthy on a strong torpedo boat (an all torpedo boat except for the Experimental Weapon using full Aux) that I run.
While you crit more using the 3 piece set with photon torpedoes you still have to bypass shields. Perhaps a Tac will have better luck dealing the raw damage to bypass shields, but as a Sci I have had none.
I've tried all photon torp builds (even before this set came out) on my Risan corvette. RSV, and Intrepid refit (LRSV) as well as continuous (photon) damage/burst damage builds on each of those ships using the entire set. I've tried running a drain (Tach. Beam and Energy Siphon) build with all sci embassy flowcaps in the sci console slots using the aforementioned weapons platforms (I have 4 points in flowcaps but do not want to respec-this was the character I made so I'll have to live by my choice).
I've really wanted a Federation all photon torpedo boat to work, especially being a Fed Sci, for roleplay and quasi-canon purposes, but plasma torpedoes and their shield-bypassing and stacking ability still kills quicker.
If a weaken version of the shield-bypassing rift ability of the gravemetric torpedo could be transferred to other photon torpedoes then, perhaps, photons and this set could be competitive for me and this weapon could be useful to this Fed. Sci.
And as a stand alone weapon I have found no real value to it. It's 180 degree arc does it a disservice for me. It would take the place of a torpedo on a strong torpedo boat or a 360 device or array on an energy weapon ship if I pilot one, and the former options are better than the Experimental Weapon.
If someone can get it to work for their build and play-style, great.
Filling a torpedo boat with nothing but torpedos is bad.
3 torpedo doffs + 2 photon torpedos = minimum torpedo cooldown
And yet the Critical Severity of Anti-Proton would hit EVERY critical hit and would total up FAR more damage... Oops. Fail.
Try the 3 Part Romulan Plasma set instead. With Hull Melt, the disruptor proc, the plasma burn proc, and the every hammering torpedoes you will do far more damage than this set will generate.
A big problem with the Polarons again is that Polarons are worthless if they are not used in conjunction with an Energy Drain build. That is their function. Without that sort of build that proc will never do you any good. The burn from the Proton proc is just too low to even begin to keep up with Disruptor proc.
Also ACC is still superior to CritH and CritD.
Well it works very well for me, and i have a full romulan plasma build. I aslo have full drain builds.
I have quite the arsenal of comparisons. All in all preconceptions about specific weapon types need to start getting thrown out.
Besides if i say it works for me and works how i use it, who are you to tell me im wrong? You arent me, you arent on my toon, and you arent using my build. So you have no pointer to tell me wether or not my build is good.
Just because something else is better, doesnt mean something else isnt good. Min/Max is ok but you know what? so is fun.
Inertia just means you can do Powerslides in you carrier!
I am Il Shadow and i approve these Shennanigans!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Well it works very well for me, and i have a full romulan plasma build. I aslo have full drain builds.
I have quite the arsenal of comparisons. All in all preconceptions about specific weapon types need to start getting thrown out.
Besides if i say it works for me and works how i use it, who are you to tell me im wrong? You arent me, you arent on my toon, and you arent using my build. So you have no pointer to tell me wether or not my build is good.
Just because something else is better, doesnt mean something else isnt good. Min/Max is ok but you know what? so is fun.
The Numbers do not lie however. Just because jumping off a building without any means to decelerate slowly can be fun does not mean you will fail to be seriously injured or killed by the sudden stop at the end because the physics still holds.
"Good" is a relative assessment but in reality you have to ask yourself some key questions about the desired outcome. Weapons are designed to destroy things. Therefore, the ones that destroy things the most efficiently are, by design, superior to those that do so less efficiently. It would stand to reason that if you are employing weapons then your goal is to destroy things and therefore would naturally want to employ the best weapon suited to that task.
Now in STO there are more ways to destroy things than simply damage alone which is where builds come into play. So, for instance, with a drain build you are using the negation of the enemy's ability to move, shield itself, and heal to ensure that all damage dealt achieves maximum effect towards the end goal of destroying the target. This is effective.
Now if you have these Protonic Polarons as your weapon of choice you will be able to drain the enemy with a proper drain build which is good. However, the added Protonic damage is weak and in the end does not really add much to the destruction of the enemy. Polarized Disruptors on the other hand achieve the same amount of energy drain but have a disruptor proc which makes ALL incoming damage more effective at destroying the targets. Seems how this only effects damage to the hull of the enemy ship it is ideal that you power off their shields with the power drain aspect of the build. So these two procs actually work very well together and indeed hasten the destruction of the enemy vessel.
Therefore, if you are running a Power Drain build then choosing Polarized Disruptors is clearly a superior choice over Protonic Polarons.
That is the nature of what I am saying. As someone who LOVES to try out different builds and different combinations I can fully appreciate the desire to play with the "new gimmicks" but as someone who is also practical I can see that doing so for very long would be purposely reducing my effectiveness.
I see some people saying the Experimental Proton Weapon is useless, but its only useless if one does not use the whole set and if ones tries to use it for a build or even ship its not good for.
Ships/Builds its good for.
...<SNIP>...
That's a big difference between useless and simply useless to you.
And don't get snotty at one who uses the Experimental Proton Weapon, there are builds ships that suit it, I happen to have one.
The Experimental Proton Weapon is definitely NOT useless, but when compared to similar set weapons like the Experimental Romulan Beam Array or Hyper-Refracting Tetryon DBB, the Experimental Weapon falls pretty far behind. With the release of the new T2 spire consoles, my Advanced Fleet AP DHC's are now in the ~1700+ DPS range. The Experimental Proton Weapon only hits 900DPS -- a little over half the AP DHC's damage output.
I find the 3-item set power also questionable: "you can now use CRF with the Exp-Proton-Weapon." Why doesn't the Experimental Proton Weapon get a bonus integrated CRF-power for having all three set items equipped?
In light of the above, I strongly support seeing the Experimental Proton Weapon be upgraded in both base damage and additional set powers, not just be given "skill unlock" bones that do not really belong.
It is an interesting weapon that would surely be better as a 360 arc given its current dps. I tested it on my fed eng against my fleet acc2 dmg2 mkxii ap array. With 4 mkxi blue ap consoles for the ap array, and only the set console for the epw, buffing with tt1/eptw3/bfaw3 -the array hit around 1610 dps, epw hit around 1260 dps. not a terrible disparity, but a noticable one that may or may not be offset by the increased crth of the 2 piece passive.
I was just brainstorming possible 3-set powers to replace the CRF-unlock trait (the latter is a garbage stat considering that CSV works on the EPW without any other set items present). Here are some suggestions:
1) integrated CRF-attack with 90 or 120 sec CD.
2) built-in CSV-attack with 90 or 120 sec CD
3) EPW gains additional [Acc]x3
4) Conical Proton Attack - 45-degree frontal arc AoE attack, 50% shield penetration, deals X-damage every second for 3 seconds. 2 Minute CD.
The Numbers do not lie however. Just because jumping off a building without any means to decelerate slowly can be fun does not mean you will fail to be seriously injured or killed by the sudden stop at the end because the physics still holds.
"Good" is a relative assessment but in reality you have to ask yourself some key questions about the desired outcome. Weapons are designed to destroy things. Therefore, the ones that destroy things the most efficiently are, by design, superior to those that do so less efficiently. It would stand to reason that if you are employing weapons then your goal is to destroy things and therefore would naturally want to employ the best weapon suited to that task.
Now in STO there are more ways to destroy things than simply damage alone which is where builds come into play. So, for instance, with a drain build you are using the negation of the enemy's ability to move, shield itself, and heal to ensure that all damage dealt achieves maximum effect towards the end goal of destroying the target. This is effective.
Now if you have these Protonic Polarons as your weapon of choice you will be able to drain the enemy with a proper drain build which is good. However, the added Protonic damage is weak and in the end does not really add much to the destruction of the enemy. Polarized Disruptors on the other hand achieve the same amount of energy drain but have a disruptor proc which makes ALL incoming damage more effective at destroying the targets. Seems how this only effects damage to the hull of the enemy ship it is ideal that you power off their shields with the power drain aspect of the build. So these two procs actually work very well together and indeed hasten the destruction of the enemy vessel.
Therefore, if you are running a Power Drain build then choosing Polarized Disruptors is clearly a superior choice over Protonic Polarons.
That is the nature of what I am saying. As someone who LOVES to try out different builds and different combinations I can fully appreciate the desire to play with the "new gimmicks" but as someone who is also practical I can see that doing so for very long would be purposely reducing my effectiveness.
Its not a Gimmick. Just because something is more effective one way doesnt meant it cant be fun and effective.
Jumping off a building is a dumb idea, what you should have compared is parachuting to base jumping.
Your build is parachuting mine is basejumping. Both fun, one is far more of a challenge, guess which one is the challenge? Thats right Basejumping and my build.
People compalin about everyhting being too easy. But anytime someone says something about a weapon or build that "underperfoms" its instantly cast down.
Math does lie, your math doesnt take into account, powers, skills, specifics of builds. I can get that little pea shooter to pop off 950-1200 dps depending on the build i toss it on.
Math....bah half the math in STO changes how it works every other week. A fully kitted out Dyson build, built around all the Dyson stuff with a few extras here and there is what those weapons are for.
The kinetic cutting beam goes with anything.
The Omni-direction is best with antiproton builds.
The Exp Proton Weapon is best with a pure dyson build, and out side of the actual 4 and 3 peice gears the entire rest of the build was FREE for me from those silly little boxes. Whast more can you ask for a build that builds itself.
Not to mention the fact that all my builds are built around specific ships (that are generally aptly named) and stay on that ship. Meaning i have things for every occasion.
And guess what U.S.S. Dragon Claw is almost ready for Anit-Voth patrols, another week and ill have the shield that will complete the build.
You build what you want and ill build all the wants i want.
Inertia just means you can do Powerslides in you carrier!
I am Il Shadow and i approve these Shennanigans!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
You build what you want and ill build all the wants i want.
This is basically a "min-maxing" thread. People are discussing whether the weapon is viable in the sense that a build can be constructed around it that would be competitive in terms of DPS with the current optimal builds. Your reply basically amounts to "I like ice cream". Look, no one wants to take away your fun. You're of course free to play at level 50 using a T2 Connie, using skittle beams, if that's what rocks your boat. I would suggest though, that your fun and those of the "min-maxers" would be better served if you tried to avoid min-maxing threads in the future.
This is basically a "min-maxing" thread. People are discussing whether the weapon is viable in the sense that a build can be constructed around it that would be competitive in terms of DPS with the current optimal builds. Your reply basically amounts to "I like ice cream". Look, no one wants to take away your fun. You're of course free to play at level 50 using a T2 Connie, using skittle beams, if that's what rocks your boat. I would suggest though, that your fun and those of the "min-maxers" would be better served if you tried to avoid min-maxing threads in the future.
But thats the thing! You CAN max this build. As he threw out Polarized Disruptors Protnic Polarons are essentially the same except witha different proc type that deals direct damage to hull.
In order to Max this you really truly have to focus on doing so. By adding Consoles from the Dyson rep stores, i actually had to put a ton of thought into making this build.
I started with a science Oddy, mostly for the Sensor Analysis.
Added in 5 Protonic Polarons with CritH x2
Added in 2 of those +20% Polaron consoles that added Proton Damage, The Assimilated Module and Nukara Console. Also added S hield thingy from Dyson and some of the enginnering ones.
Between the added proton damage, all the Crit chance and accuracy it more than makes up for any short comings.
Inertia just means you can do Powerslides in you carrier!
I am Il Shadow and i approve these Shennanigans!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
This is simply not true. The relation between the three, and hence which one is best, strictly depends on your targets defence, your own current accuracy, CritH and CritD values.
OK. Fine. That's where you should've started with then.
FWIW, I'm still not convinced either way. I would love to see some serious treatment of the subject, with numbers and all. All I've seen so far is anecdotal evidence and opinions.
For instance, when people simply mention that it's doing less DPS than their dual heavy or beam bank... well, that's missing the point. You have to analyse the whole picture. The 2-set, for instance, will give you a whopping 3% crit, the weapon itself uses only 5 power... take this into account and you see that equipping this is increasing the DPS of all your *other* weapons. Does this increase push it ahead? Does it make it worth equipping? I don't know. I haven't run the numbers... and I'll withhold judgement until someone does.
The only uses I can see for this weapon are to either stuff it on your shipbutt and just eat the lost turret in exchange for the CrtH boosts to your primary weaponry, or to stick it on your Shuttle, where you actually CAN make a Proton-weapon-only ship that has no other weapons to gimp by choosing inferior consoles.
OK. Fine. That's where you should've started with then.
FWIW, I'm still not convinced either way. I would love to see some serious treatment of the subject, with numbers and all. All I've seen so far is anecdotal evidence and opinions.
For instance, when people simply mention that it's doing less DPS than their dual heavy or beam bank... well, that's missing the point. You have to analyse the whole picture. The 2-set, for instance, will give you a whopping 3% crit, the weapon itself uses only 5 power... take this into account and you see that equipping this is increasing the DPS of all your *other* weapons. Does this increase push it ahead? Does it make it worth equipping? I don't know. I haven't run the numbers... and I'll withhold judgement until someone does.
If i had a parser i would run those numbers for you. Obviously i am going by mostly anecdotal, and how it "feels". Eventually i will take another run at installing the STO plugin for ACT, and get some hard numbers for you. If that coincides with when i get the Dyson shield the last and final piece i need to complete the build, so much the better.
If i get it all up and running i will do a run on Breach Elite post the results, and do a run on...ISE or KASE most likely for comparison between the two.
The only uses I can see for this weapon are to either stuff it on your shipbutt and just eat the lost turret in exchange for the CrtH boosts to your primary weaponry, or to stick it on your Shuttle, where you actually CAN make a Proton-weapon-only ship that has no other weapons to gimp by choosing inferior consoles.
Unfortunately it is a rare ship FORE weapon. And there are no Porotn only consoles, there are cross over consoles though.
Inertia just means you can do Powerslides in you carrier!
I am Il Shadow and i approve these Shennanigans!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
On one hand, on my Fleet Nova, I almost have all of both sets; just lacking the shield and I currently use an Elite Resilient shield with antiproton resistance which serves it's purpose extremely well.
I've persisted with a build consisting a Protonic Polaron dual-beam bank and the experimental canon but aside from being a pretty effective drain-build I still find it a little underwhelming.
Switched to Elite phasers instead, and didn't notice a huge increase in damage, although with the Elite phaser hull-repair proc found that my ship didn't require BOFF healing quite as frequently. Oddly, felt quite comfortable with this setup though.
Also attempted using antiproton, with a mix of a Fleet dual-beam fore and both a Voth and the omni-directional beam aft (and the Obilesk warp core for the antiproton boost). DPS seemed good, but being a sci Captain using a sci ship I prefer not to try and over-emphasise DPS, as am in the 'that's not what Sci is for' camp.
So, for the moment, I've dropped the experimental cannon, loaded the Elite dual-beam phaser bank and two Elite photon torpedo launchers foward (since still getting the photon projectile boost from the set, and have a MkXII purple photon torpedo console equipped) and the gravimetric torpedo with two elite phaser arrays aft. Probably not the most effective build, but probably the one that I, at present, enjoy the most.
That right there. Sums up why all arguments go wrong on here.
It's for fun and some people have different funses. I need to save up massive FC's and Dili for some Fleet Elite Phaser's for another build on my current toon.
Cheers to you M8
Inertia just means you can do Powerslides in you carrier!
I am Il Shadow and i approve these Shennanigans!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Well, it is (in my opinion) what it should be all about.
To elaborate on this point further; as stated, I fly a Fleet Nova (Rhode Island skin). I know that the Vesta is superior. I inow that the Wells is superior. I own both. I still rarely use either. The fact is I enjoy the Fleet Rhode Island more - It's not the biggest (in fact it's likely one of the smallest!) or the most powerful but it is, and will always be, the benchmark for what enjoying STO means to me.
Good for you, i haven't actually tested the little bitty nova much. I have tested a dearth of the other ships.
I feel i like CC abilities best so i always end up SOMWHERE i can put a bunch of science abilities.
Generally a Science ship or an Oddy. I have almost all the Science ships, a few Tac ships and all the cruisers (not including multifaction/lockbox) Currently fiddling about the the Vesta (and having fun fiddling), But i build out desgins with particular ships. Im a tad peculiar and if you cant tell from my posts pretty stubborn and obstinate :rolleyes:
But i pick a ship like say my Sci Oddy say ok this is going to be my base line. And one i saw the Dyson sets and consoles and weapons i knew in my build had it all plotted out.
Same thing with my Galaxy and my Gal-X and My Risian Vette. Most of my builds arent min/max but generally quite alot of fun to play.
My risian vette has a silly breen/ antiproton build on it, and it cranks through PvE despite not being maxed but a joy to play.
I am constantly on the move with ships and builds which is partly how i help myself keep the game fresh. Ok ive got that killer Antiproton build i destroyed a tac cub in 20 seconds lets try something outragous next.....
Maybe ill build an all cheese ship next.......
Inertia just means you can do Powerslides in you carrier!
I am Il Shadow and i approve these Shennanigans!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
But thats the thing! You CAN max this build. As he threw out Polarized Disruptors Protnic Polarons are essentially the same except witha different proc type that deals direct damage to hull.
In order to Max this you really truly have to focus on doing so. By adding Consoles from the Dyson rep stores, i actually had to put a ton of thought into making this build.
I started with a science Oddy, mostly for the Sensor Analysis.
Added in 5 Protonic Polarons with CritH x2
Added in 2 of those +20% Polaron consoles that added Proton Damage, The Assimilated Module and Nukara Console. Also added S hield thingy from Dyson and some of the enginnering ones.
Between the added proton damage, all the Crit chance and accuracy it more than makes up for any short comings.
The shield and engi consoles dont do anything to help the proton proc from the weapons. The shields add a chance to do one hit of additional proton damage with some spells, and are wholly unrelated to the weapon proc. Meanwhile the engi consoles add resists against incoming damage, and do not do anything for your outgoing weapon damage.
The only consoles you have that contribute to the polaron weapon proc are the tac consoles. You could have bought blu Mk XI and gotten a bigger buff on your polaron damage multiplied by 6 weapons, than the buff you are getting from the proton proc that is only showing up on 25% of your crits.
Its alright that you like it, but you are claiming that you put a lot of thought into buffing them and that everybody else is just blinded by something.
Comments
On my Mobius Destroyer, my Advanced Fleet AP DHC's hit for 1550+ DPS. However, the experimental proton weapon only hovers around 900DPS. When I swapped one of my AP DHC's out for an experimental proton weapon, my ship ended up losing both DPS and burst damage, even with the gravimetric torpedo and matching proton particle converter console. The 50% proc rate on a critical hit does not provide sufficient performance to warrant replacing the Fleet AP DHC with an Experimental Proton Weapon.
Conclusion: If your ship is running fleet weapons and gear, then the Experimental Proton Weapon is probably not worth equipping since you will be sacrificing damage output againt all non-Voth opponents. If facing a Voth opponent, then you will probably break even, but if you are not seeing any significant improvement, then why bother with the Experimental Proton Weapon in the first place???
The Exp. Proton Weapon does have one advantage: it has a very high rate of fire -- fast enough to prevent battle-cloak ships from being able to disengage at will.
I don't actually have any consoles I'm really willing to give up. I'm in a JHEC using Plasma. My Tac slots all have purple Mk XIIs, my Sci slots have two Mk XII +Pla consoles, and my Eng slots has the Leech, the Tachyokinetic Converter, the Assimilated, and the Zero-Point.
The Protonic Arsenal console boosts Proton damage as well, so the only benefit would be just the 2-item set bonus.
Giving up a DHC isn't that bad, since the power drain goes from 12 to 5, giving an extra 14% damage to all weapons. I also appreciate the arc of 180 degrees instead of 45 degrees, especially when the Voth spawn around me, or when the Voth disable my engines, or when I have to circle around their invulnerable shields.
If I was really concerned about the loss of a DHC, I'd toss it aft. As it stands, I don't mind it. It works with my two copies of CSV too.
That's odd, I'm running Advanced Fleet Plasma (ACC x2) DHCs, and parsing three eSTFs all gave me a total increase of around 1k DPS compared to average of 12 previous runs. The weapon itself does less damage than a DHC, so it's not the firing arc that improved, hm. Perhaps it depends on our Crit Chance/Severity?
That is quite possible. AFAIK, plasma weapons are not as crit-dependent since their DoT damage isn't modified by critical hits. Non-Voth antiproton weapons, on the other hand, take full advantage of increasing critical hit rates and severity because of their inherent +20 [CrtD] modifier.
My Mobius build is presently running +25% accuracy, +14% critical chance, and +118% critical severity. I'm considering cranking the last number to +133%, but this means losing the Tipler Cylinder Temporal Backstep. Combine the above with Advanced Fleet AP-DHC's, and now we're looking at +148 or +178 crit-severity, ignoring additional accuracy critical modifiers. The Chroniton Beam Array gets to +188. Yep, those crits are gonna hurt!
Agreed -- since the Experimental Proton Weapon is supposed to have both beam and cannon properties, it is reasonable to allow cannon or beam consoles to boost its damage output. That, or simply give the weapon a significant damage boost, from 900dps to 1200dps.
Would make a huge difference if they would. I didn't test it out with the new fleet consoles on tribble since I couldn't find a fleet there with access to the new stuff. My above suggestion got shot to hell, but it's good you pointed that out.
So if it doesn't work with cannon or beam consoles, what weapon category does the ExPW belong to?
dps boost can work to but then they would need to reduce fire arc to 45 like dhc have and i li be hapy to make this trade to lose fire arc to gain some real dps on it
Ships/Builds its good for.
Any cruiser/science ship with only two tac slots and that uses single cannons and turrets. The buff to other weapon systems is greater then the dps lost on the one weapon.
Photon focused Torpedo boats.
Small Craft (I have a small craft Protonic Dyson To'duj build in the Klingon Fleet Yards)
Builds that focus on low Weapons Power.
Also the Romulan Plasma Consoles add 2.5 plasma burn proc each, which dovetails well with the high fire rate. I have three.
Also if versitility is really important to you, this is a good weapon.
Also if your a Captain that has one too many tac ensigns this could be a good weapon, stick Beam Overload in that slot.
What its bad for is your average Escort type build, its bad for Beam Boats, if you don't like photon torpedoes, if you have a 5 tac console ships, 4 tac slot ships, iffy on 3 tac slot ships. So its not for everyone.
That's a big difference between useless and simply useless to you.
And don't get snotty at one who uses the Experimental Proton Weapon, there are builds ships that suit it, I happen to have one.
While the weapon does allow a Sci to deliver the innate subsystems ability and the +10% Critical Chance with Photon Projectile weapons and +10% Critical Severity, I have found it, as the third part of a set, not worthy on a strong torpedo boat (an all torpedo boat except for the Experimental Weapon using full Aux) that I run.
While you crit more using the 3 piece set with photon torpedoes you still have to bypass shields. Perhaps a Tac will have better luck dealing the raw damage to bypass shields, but as a Sci I have had none.
I've tried all photon torp builds (even before this set came out) on my Risan corvette. RSV, and Intrepid refit (LRSV) as well as continuous (photon) damage/burst damage builds on each of those ships using the entire set. I've tried running a drain (Tach. Beam and Energy Siphon) build with all sci embassy flowcaps in the sci console slots using the aforementioned weapons platforms (I have 4 points in flowcaps but do not want to respec-this was the character I made so I'll have to live by my choice).
I've really wanted a Federation all photon torpedo boat to work, especially being a Fed Sci, for roleplay and quasi-canon purposes, but plasma torpedoes and their shield-bypassing and stacking ability still kills quicker.
If a weaken version of the shield-bypassing rift ability of the gravemetric torpedo could be transferred to other photon torpedoes then, perhaps, photons and this set could be competitive for me and this weapon could be useful to this Fed. Sci.
And as a stand alone weapon I have found no real value to it. It's 180 degree arc does it a disservice for me. It would take the place of a torpedo on a strong torpedo boat or a 360 device or array on an energy weapon ship if I pilot one, and the former options are better than the Experimental Weapon.
If someone can get it to work for their build and play-style, great.
Voth Antiproton is available from lockboxes or on the Exchange, they are not Dyson weapons they are VOTH weapons.
Dyson weapons are Protonic Polarons, they are NOT Voth weapons.
Moving on.
I have Protonic Polarons and the Full Dyson Weapon set, along with 3 of the 4 pieces of the Space set. And some of the consoles available for free from the rep that you get in those little boxes.
I tossed it all on my Oddy adding in only three consoles. An assimilated Module, a Nukara Particle Converter AND only one Mk X GREEN Polaraon Phase Modulator.
This set properly used and buffed and worked it does AS MUCH damage as my overspecialized phaser or antiproton build, and those are made to gain as much damage as possible out of themselves.
They do quite a lot of damage properly buffed out. And like all dual proc weapons you choose to argue over whats better.
Well here you go, get the protonic polaron weapons with CritH and CritD. And more of the other consoles from the Dyson Rep. Fool around with it a tad, and you will see it is actually quite good, especially if you are getting a lot of critical hits.
There. now you know and knowing is half the battle.
I am Il Shadow and i approve these Shennanigans!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
And yet the Critical Severity of Anti-Proton would hit EVERY critical hit and would total up FAR more damage... Oops. Fail.
Try the 3 Part Romulan Plasma set instead. With Hull Melt, the disruptor proc, the plasma burn proc, and the ever hammering torpedoes you will do far more damage than this set will generate.
A big problem with the Polarons again is that Polarons are worthless if they are not used in conjunction with an Energy Drain build. That is their function. Without that sort of build that proc will never do you any good. The burn from the Proton proc is just too low to even begin to keep up with Disruptor proc.
Also ACC is still superior to CritH and CritD.
Filling a torpedo boat with nothing but torpedos is bad.
3 torpedo doffs + 2 photon torpedos = minimum torpedo cooldown
Well it works very well for me, and i have a full romulan plasma build. I aslo have full drain builds.
I have quite the arsenal of comparisons. All in all preconceptions about specific weapon types need to start getting thrown out.
Besides if i say it works for me and works how i use it, who are you to tell me im wrong? You arent me, you arent on my toon, and you arent using my build. So you have no pointer to tell me wether or not my build is good.
Just because something else is better, doesnt mean something else isnt good. Min/Max is ok but you know what? so is fun.
I am Il Shadow and i approve these Shennanigans!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
The Numbers do not lie however. Just because jumping off a building without any means to decelerate slowly can be fun does not mean you will fail to be seriously injured or killed by the sudden stop at the end because the physics still holds.
"Good" is a relative assessment but in reality you have to ask yourself some key questions about the desired outcome. Weapons are designed to destroy things. Therefore, the ones that destroy things the most efficiently are, by design, superior to those that do so less efficiently. It would stand to reason that if you are employing weapons then your goal is to destroy things and therefore would naturally want to employ the best weapon suited to that task.
Now in STO there are more ways to destroy things than simply damage alone which is where builds come into play. So, for instance, with a drain build you are using the negation of the enemy's ability to move, shield itself, and heal to ensure that all damage dealt achieves maximum effect towards the end goal of destroying the target. This is effective.
Now if you have these Protonic Polarons as your weapon of choice you will be able to drain the enemy with a proper drain build which is good. However, the added Protonic damage is weak and in the end does not really add much to the destruction of the enemy. Polarized Disruptors on the other hand achieve the same amount of energy drain but have a disruptor proc which makes ALL incoming damage more effective at destroying the targets. Seems how this only effects damage to the hull of the enemy ship it is ideal that you power off their shields with the power drain aspect of the build. So these two procs actually work very well together and indeed hasten the destruction of the enemy vessel.
Therefore, if you are running a Power Drain build then choosing Polarized Disruptors is clearly a superior choice over Protonic Polarons.
That is the nature of what I am saying. As someone who LOVES to try out different builds and different combinations I can fully appreciate the desire to play with the "new gimmicks" but as someone who is also practical I can see that doing so for very long would be purposely reducing my effectiveness.
The Experimental Proton Weapon is definitely NOT useless, but when compared to similar set weapons like the Experimental Romulan Beam Array or Hyper-Refracting Tetryon DBB, the Experimental Weapon falls pretty far behind. With the release of the new T2 spire consoles, my Advanced Fleet AP DHC's are now in the ~1700+ DPS range. The Experimental Proton Weapon only hits 900DPS -- a little over half the AP DHC's damage output.
I find the 3-item set power also questionable: "you can now use CRF with the Exp-Proton-Weapon." Why doesn't the Experimental Proton Weapon get a bonus integrated CRF-power for having all three set items equipped?
In light of the above, I strongly support seeing the Experimental Proton Weapon be upgraded in both base damage and additional set powers, not just be given "skill unlock" bones that do not really belong.
Derrick - Fed Eng
1) integrated CRF-attack with 90 or 120 sec CD.
2) built-in CSV-attack with 90 or 120 sec CD
3) EPW gains additional [Acc]x3
4) Conical Proton Attack - 45-degree frontal arc AoE attack, 50% shield penetration, deals X-damage every second for 3 seconds. 2 Minute CD.
More food for thought...
Its not a Gimmick. Just because something is more effective one way doesnt meant it cant be fun and effective.
Jumping off a building is a dumb idea, what you should have compared is parachuting to base jumping.
Your build is parachuting mine is basejumping. Both fun, one is far more of a challenge, guess which one is the challenge? Thats right Basejumping and my build.
People compalin about everyhting being too easy. But anytime someone says something about a weapon or build that "underperfoms" its instantly cast down.
Math does lie, your math doesnt take into account, powers, skills, specifics of builds. I can get that little pea shooter to pop off 950-1200 dps depending on the build i toss it on.
Math....bah half the math in STO changes how it works every other week. A fully kitted out Dyson build, built around all the Dyson stuff with a few extras here and there is what those weapons are for.
The kinetic cutting beam goes with anything.
The Omni-direction is best with antiproton builds.
The Exp Proton Weapon is best with a pure dyson build, and out side of the actual 4 and 3 peice gears the entire rest of the build was FREE for me from those silly little boxes. Whast more can you ask for a build that builds itself.
Not to mention the fact that all my builds are built around specific ships (that are generally aptly named) and stay on that ship. Meaning i have things for every occasion.
And guess what U.S.S. Dragon Claw is almost ready for Anit-Voth patrols, another week and ill have the shield that will complete the build.
You build what you want and ill build all the wants i want.
I am Il Shadow and i approve these Shennanigans!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
This is basically a "min-maxing" thread. People are discussing whether the weapon is viable in the sense that a build can be constructed around it that would be competitive in terms of DPS with the current optimal builds. Your reply basically amounts to "I like ice cream". Look, no one wants to take away your fun. You're of course free to play at level 50 using a T2 Connie, using skittle beams, if that's what rocks your boat. I would suggest though, that your fun and those of the "min-maxers" would be better served if you tried to avoid min-maxing threads in the future.
But thats the thing! You CAN max this build. As he threw out Polarized Disruptors Protnic Polarons are essentially the same except witha different proc type that deals direct damage to hull.
In order to Max this you really truly have to focus on doing so. By adding Consoles from the Dyson rep stores, i actually had to put a ton of thought into making this build.
I started with a science Oddy, mostly for the Sensor Analysis.
Added in 5 Protonic Polarons with CritH x2
Added in 2 of those +20% Polaron consoles that added Proton Damage, The Assimilated Module and Nukara Console. Also added S hield thingy from Dyson and some of the enginnering ones.
Between the added proton damage, all the Crit chance and accuracy it more than makes up for any short comings.
I am Il Shadow and i approve these Shennanigans!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
This is simply not true. The relation between the three, and hence which one is best, strictly depends on your targets defence, your own current accuracy, CritH and CritD values.
OK. Fine. That's where you should've started with then.
FWIW, I'm still not convinced either way. I would love to see some serious treatment of the subject, with numbers and all. All I've seen so far is anecdotal evidence and opinions.
For instance, when people simply mention that it's doing less DPS than their dual heavy or beam bank... well, that's missing the point. You have to analyse the whole picture. The 2-set, for instance, will give you a whopping 3% crit, the weapon itself uses only 5 power... take this into account and you see that equipping this is increasing the DPS of all your *other* weapons. Does this increase push it ahead? Does it make it worth equipping? I don't know. I haven't run the numbers... and I'll withhold judgement until someone does.
If i had a parser i would run those numbers for you. Obviously i am going by mostly anecdotal, and how it "feels". Eventually i will take another run at installing the STO plugin for ACT, and get some hard numbers for you. If that coincides with when i get the Dyson shield the last and final piece i need to complete the build, so much the better.
If i get it all up and running i will do a run on Breach Elite post the results, and do a run on...ISE or KASE most likely for comparison between the two.
Unfortunately it is a rare ship FORE weapon. And there are no Porotn only consoles, there are cross over consoles though.
I am Il Shadow and i approve these Shennanigans!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
That right there. Sums up why all arguments go wrong on here.
It's for fun and some people have different funses. I need to save up massive FC's and Dili for some Fleet Elite Phaser's for another build on my current toon.
Cheers to you M8
I am Il Shadow and i approve these Shennanigans!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Good for you, i haven't actually tested the little bitty nova much. I have tested a dearth of the other ships.
I feel i like CC abilities best so i always end up SOMWHERE i can put a bunch of science abilities.
Generally a Science ship or an Oddy. I have almost all the Science ships, a few Tac ships and all the cruisers (not including multifaction/lockbox) Currently fiddling about the the Vesta (and having fun fiddling), But i build out desgins with particular ships. Im a tad peculiar and if you cant tell from my posts pretty stubborn and obstinate :rolleyes:
But i pick a ship like say my Sci Oddy say ok this is going to be my base line. And one i saw the Dyson sets and consoles and weapons i knew in my build had it all plotted out.
Same thing with my Galaxy and my Gal-X and My Risian Vette. Most of my builds arent min/max but generally quite alot of fun to play.
My risian vette has a silly breen/ antiproton build on it, and it cranks through PvE despite not being maxed but a joy to play.
I am constantly on the move with ships and builds which is partly how i help myself keep the game fresh. Ok ive got that killer Antiproton build i destroyed a tac cub in 20 seconds lets try something outragous next.....
Maybe ill build an all cheese ship next.......
I am Il Shadow and i approve these Shennanigans!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
The only consoles you have that contribute to the polaron weapon proc are the tac consoles. You could have bought blu Mk XI and gotten a bigger buff on your polaron damage multiplied by 6 weapons, than the buff you are getting from the proton proc that is only showing up on 25% of your crits.
Its alright that you like it, but you are claiming that you put a lot of thought into buffing them and that everybody else is just blinded by something.