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Kind of dissapointed in what they've done to the Voth (closed, necro)
oldkilldare
Member Posts: 0 Arc User
so i was kinda bored with grinding yesterday and thought i'd watch the Voyager episode that introduced the Voth during a breather...
and i have to say on refection now i'm disappointed in what has been done to the Voth in game...
this a highly advanced species with a highly advanced and underlyingly civil society.
the "good Voth" in the episode are every bit as moral and ethical as The Federation at its best even exercising a self imposed "prime directive" (one that is not dictated from on high) in their studies of their ancestors directly comparable with how the Federation observes "lesser" cultures itself in canon.
even the "bad Voth" are not cartoon villains of a purely military disposition and instead are deeply "Machiavellian" as befits their intelligence...and they only resort to "threats of violence" to forward their aims as a last resort...and even then it's "non lethal"...
and what have we got in STO ? effectively cartoon space TRIBBLE cannon fodder akin to galactic empire storm troopers that have fell into the wrong IP...
i am aware there is a storyline within the rep system that trys to counter this perception (my Romulan Tac captain is in the higher tiers of the rep grind atm) but imo it's not enough and i hope there are serious plans to move this storyline forward and onto a more nuanced footing in the future.
it would be nice to see perhaps Veer (from the episode) seeking to make amends for his betrayal of both "science" and his mentor...and i would really like it if they perhaps showed "scientists" can indeed "stand up and be counted" and change things in society and that they are not actually the societally powerless "puny geeks" they are so often stereotyped as.
please note this is largely just dissatisfaction with "the lore" of the content...the ground combat zone is actually fairly fun and engaging...and i would humbly suggest you jump off from this model and make ground PvP maps much like this and much akin to how it is done in WoW, SWTOR and other MMOs...."Old School Alterac Valley" like PvP maps (even though self styled PvP purists dislike that kind "unbalanced" "PvE/PVE" type thing) could imo be an excellent fit for STO both narratively and systemically now.
basically if you gave us the Voth ground zone map but with factionalised teams...what have you got ? "Arathi Basin" basically...and no that type of "MMO PvP" isn't "balanced"...indeed it is probably "non-balance-able"...but it doesn't mean people don't play it and enjoy it...
one caveat tho: you really need to auto isolate chat channels for each instance of a Battleground.
oh and if you do make new "PvP" maps like that...give us mechs :P
and i have to say on refection now i'm disappointed in what has been done to the Voth in game...
this a highly advanced species with a highly advanced and underlyingly civil society.
the "good Voth" in the episode are every bit as moral and ethical as The Federation at its best even exercising a self imposed "prime directive" (one that is not dictated from on high) in their studies of their ancestors directly comparable with how the Federation observes "lesser" cultures itself in canon.
even the "bad Voth" are not cartoon villains of a purely military disposition and instead are deeply "Machiavellian" as befits their intelligence...and they only resort to "threats of violence" to forward their aims as a last resort...and even then it's "non lethal"...
and what have we got in STO ? effectively cartoon space TRIBBLE cannon fodder akin to galactic empire storm troopers that have fell into the wrong IP...
i am aware there is a storyline within the rep system that trys to counter this perception (my Romulan Tac captain is in the higher tiers of the rep grind atm) but imo it's not enough and i hope there are serious plans to move this storyline forward and onto a more nuanced footing in the future.
it would be nice to see perhaps Veer (from the episode) seeking to make amends for his betrayal of both "science" and his mentor...and i would really like it if they perhaps showed "scientists" can indeed "stand up and be counted" and change things in society and that they are not actually the societally powerless "puny geeks" they are so often stereotyped as.
please note this is largely just dissatisfaction with "the lore" of the content...the ground combat zone is actually fairly fun and engaging...and i would humbly suggest you jump off from this model and make ground PvP maps much like this and much akin to how it is done in WoW, SWTOR and other MMOs...."Old School Alterac Valley" like PvP maps (even though self styled PvP purists dislike that kind "unbalanced" "PvE/PVE" type thing) could imo be an excellent fit for STO both narratively and systemically now.
basically if you gave us the Voth ground zone map but with factionalised teams...what have you got ? "Arathi Basin" basically...and no that type of "MMO PvP" isn't "balanced"...indeed it is probably "non-balance-able"...but it doesn't mean people don't play it and enjoy it...
one caveat tho: you really need to auto isolate chat channels for each instance of a Battleground.
oh and if you do make new "PvP" maps like that...give us mechs :P
Post edited by oldkilldare on
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Comments
And the romulans should have had their very own faction/story fighting against the tail shar what they did was shear laziness.
So what if the Voth are civil and highly advanced? There have been plenty of cultures on Earth that could also have been considered such that still committed incredibly questionable and reprehensible acts. While the Voth aren't "cartoon space TRIBBLE cannon fodder", they are still incredibly close minded and xenophobic.
Even in Voyager, they were shown as considering non-Voth (and mammals especially) as lesser and second class simply on the grounds of not being Voth.
And a culture as old and as advanced as theirs most definitely would have an armed force that would be fearsome by anyone's standards. The game even spells out what could easily be guessed from the show, too: the Voth are so advanced and adept at defending themselves they can hold off even the Borg like they were nothing.
And so far, from the scant few cut scenes and interactions with Voth that we have now, they're not exactly military crazed, either. They have simply deployed their armed forces to acquire the Sphere. They don't seem bent on destroying the player factions, or even interested in moving on to our sectors of space at the moment. They just want the Sphere, and we're in their way.
It's also been showing that they still seem to be sticking to their Doctrine in manners that do not digress from what was displayed from the show. Indeed, it even seems to fit their pattern of quick escalation (i.e., the more certain scientists keep heresaying against the Doctrine, the more force is brought against them by the Voth Inquisitions).
The thing is, the Voth so far have shown very little interest in communicating with the player factions. We are simply beneath them. As a result, people can misconstrue their motivations to some degrees, but make no mistake. The Voth don't want to talk to us, and they just want us out of their way. But if we stand in their way, they have no compunctions about destroying us. We are non-Voth and have no voice or opinion of matter to them, and they desperately want the Sphere.
imo we largely only saw the "xenophobia" you describe evident in the highest echelons of the Voth leadership..and what we largely saw from "normal" Voth was largely fear of them due to their power within the structures of society and their perceived intransigence...and yet still we are told during the corse of the episode a great many of "the people" have been questioning of "doctrine" long before Gegens discovery.
in the episode Gegens "xenophobia", such as it is, is done away with one single conversation with Chakotay...even before that both he and Veer accept what is in front of them (that they have mammalian relatives) pretty much straight away when they initially discover it...to me that isn't the reaction of a people somehow immutably "xenophobic".
and while Gegen states they have had "problems with other races especially mammalian" he doesn't say, nor does his tone in any way suggest, they had to militarily conquer and/or kill them to extradite themselves from those "problems"...even towards the end of the episode when the chief minister of the council of Voth Elders sets to "bury the evidence" it is via imprisonment not death...so even their "xenophobia" had self upheld limits of "civility"...something we as a species have often sadly not upheld...
No I'm not "playing Devil' advocate" in the slightest.
So you're taking the example of one Heretic scientist as the general attitude of the entire race? A race that, as was pointed out in the very same episode, is inherently resistant to change almost to a fault? I can also say that we saw very little "normal" Voth but, considering that almost all the Voth shown in the episode minus the scientist Gegen, seemed perfectly comfortable in their own superiority, it's not too hard to label him as the "odd one out" in terms of general Voth attitude.
I can also point out that it wasn't necessarily Gegen's xenophobia that was wiped out, but that his hunches on the veracity of the Distant Origin Theory were confirmed with the examinations of the Voyager crew.
And yet the entire time, the Voth leader dangled ever greater threats over the heads of Gegen and the Voyager crew. And I highly doubt the Voth leadership would have let the Voyager crew live for very long, or at least let them live free. They were literally living examples of the proof positive of the Distant Origin Theory. To the Voth Doctrine, they were walking blasphemies, and the council elders would have dealt a permanent solution, one way or another.
Please take into account that the Voth leadership is essentially a theocracy. And even the most pleasant and civil of the historical theocratic nations in our own world's history can prove to enact lightning fast and brutal force when they deem it necessary, all in the name to uphold their belief.
I'm once again pointing out: even with all their airs, the Voth sense of superiority coupled with their blisteringly advanced technology and desire to claim the Dyson Sphere as their own (both practically and retroactively saying their ancestors built it), I do not place acts of brute force outside the realms of their possible behaviors. It would be too simple for them, and thus the easiest solution, which they demonstrated completely capable of doing. Societies like that don't like to get creative. They like to push buttons and make their issues go away. And societies like that almost always have within their ranks those who like to solve their problems with the edge of a blade, too. Because they can, and because it gives them false justifications.
IMO the problem is the dyson sphere episode is basically a glorified tutorial to the sphere zone that gives nominal rewards on replay, if only it was remastered with a real story. Heck even if what we got reused the spire, breach, and ground battlezones with story stuck in and gave out blue mk xi versions of the rep rewards that'd be better than what we have now.
he's not "one Heretic scientist".
its clearly stated in the show that large numbers of "the people" have been questioning of "doctrine" and showing an interest in "the distant origin theory" long before Gegen even found the Human bones at the start of the episode (and it's heavily insinuated that he's not actually even the root of "the distant origin theory").
the difference between him and them and the reason he's more "dangerous" is because he has "proof" and the chief minister herself states he is one of their most esteemed scientists.
as for being "inherently resistant to change almost to a fault" Chakotays big "court room speech" moment specifically sets to pull that pov (and it is merely a pov) apart on the basis of the Voths own historical records even tho it is deliberately ignored by the chief minister of the council of Elders
because its clearly mentioned that many of the Voth people have an interest in "the distant origin theory" its seems to me that many of them would actually be fairly receptive to "new ideas"/"proof" IF they were allowed to hear them.
simply put not getting to hear something is not the same as intransigently, "inherently" not wanting to hear it.
there is plenty evidence in the episode the Voth aren't getting to hear certain things.
but there is far less to suggest that they are an "inherently" intransigently stubborn as a race and have no interest in doing so.
if the whole race was as intransigently stubborn as the Elders the Elders would have nothing to fear from public exposure of Gegens research...because no one would listen anyway...and nothing would change.
they pursue and oppress Gegen precisely because they know people will listen.
ps. i have no idea where you're getting "theocracy" from...they are "Elders" not "Priests"...the primary structure of Voth society is familial not religious and this is indicated in several incidental scenes....what their pov represents imo is an extremely intransigent "conservatism" in the "adherence to tradition" sense (as is often prevalent in the elderly) not a something akin to a spiritual religious faith except in terms of some of the sideways co-opted terminology used in within the episodes writing to give it an otherworldly flavour.
in other worlds just because they called "tradition" "doctrine" and disagreeing with said "tradition" "heresy" doesn't mean its actually a religion. it had no sign of the trappings of religion bar the use of those words.
pps. there are 5 Voth "speaking parts".
3 are "normal" "good Voth" : Gegen, his assistant Veer and his daughter Frola (who is admittedly displays tacit scepticism but mostly because she is worried about what might happen to her father if he goes to the council with his new found "truth").
2 are "bad Voth" : the guy who face to face interrogates Janeway after the ships capture (with next to no violence employed btw) who's most aggressive act is shouting "lies!" when Janeway
obfuscatingly suggests they come from the same place in response to the question "where do you come from ?" and Odala, the chief minister of the council of Voth Elders.
the "normal" off screen Voth population are actually mentioned quite often during the course of the episodes dialogue...and its nearly always inferred they would actually be receptive both when it's being stated that "getting the word out" will be a struggle (because of the "bad Voth") and when it's being suggested by the "bad Voth" themselves said "word" getting out will be societally damaging.
Season 8 however has me wondering why I am even continuing the play STO and I have come to realize the only thing that keeps me wanting to login is my Fleet and the fact there are so many awesome individuals in it...
So if you hate this so much more will be coming count on it !!!
http://www.livestream.com/Stokedradio/video?clipId=pla_3036d8d7-9957-45fb-a9d1-e50f13a5ac78&utm_source=lslibrary&utm_medium=ui-thumb
"Coffee: the finest organic suspension ever devised. It's got me through the worst of the last three years. I beat the Borg with it."
and if the "fun" is too little they wont make any money.
no one is forcing me to play so stop with the "it's all about the money" spiel/supposed insight.
i know it is.
i just happen to think if they make more "fun" they'll make more money.
people generally do.
customers aren't queuing up at Disneyland or the movies to be bored (or faced with constant "glitches").
and besides i tend to forget about the grind when i'm blasting away in the Voth ground zone...the short Voth rep projects end up frequently going uncollected/submitted as i "lose track of time"...i don't even really want any of the rep stuff on my Romulan Tac captain...the Voth zones weren't actually "the grind" i was referring to in the initial post...it was the endlessly aggravating Borg on Defara that had me looking for something else to do...
If we went by the Star Trek story the voth are a very very ancient space faring culture that are millions MILLIONS of years older than anything in star trek lore that still use star ships as a means of travel. In the one and only episode they appeared on they did things to voyager that they couldn't even understand. The Borg are a great deal more advanced than the federation but at least when they met them they understood what was happening. Cutting beam shields are being drained by this thingy. With the Voth it was more like "**** if know what the hell that was that's doing that to us" kind of TRIBBLE kicking. I mean why would a race like that even concern themselves with the federation since its ruling class want nothing to do with us because Earth and everything about it undermines their doctrine. It would be like the federation invading a stone aged world. Ah well its just a game and I just pretend that these voth are not the voth of star trek lore rather a reptile race that just have a very very big shiny marble that everyone wants.
LOL! But I don't think todays generation knows what Galaga is. Oh the many quarters I dumped in that game......Now I feel old!
original join date 2010
Member: Team Trekyards. Visit Trekyards today!
When you invent a system where combat involves having deep debates with your enemy and you get exp and gear for making them agree with you, then you can take an almighty tone here.
Till then ill be over there splitting those Voth's atoms with my Tetryon rifle.
It will be interesting to see who it is they are fighting.
In one a science officer, or maybe medic explains how he (maybe she, the gender is never said) saw a group of the mammals fighting each other and how thankful s/he is that the Voth no longer fight each other.
In another a Voth officer explains to the troops under his/her command that they try to leave room for the mammals to use the sphere themselves, but that the mammals instead attack the Voth areas without provocation
The iconians, I would guess.