Frankly you have absolutely no idea how I role-played my KDF Captain, don't try to lecture me about it.
My post was regarding my perspective as me the player, not the the character I was playing as. I was using the DeWitt mission as an example of why I personally see the behaviour of the Klingon Captain in the Fed tutorial and the behaviour of the KDF Captain and his/her first officer in the DeWitt mission as pretty consistent as far as overall Klingon behaviour goes.
you sound like a vary emotional type of person. might be better to stick to the federation side for you. since I was not lecturing, and I don't give a targs TRIBBLE how you Role play.
Trophies for killing FEDS ahh those were the days.
One of the great aspects of Worf's character arc was his strict adherence to traditional Klingon honour, and his having to confront the fact that contemporary Klingon society had largely perverted, twisted, and ignored much of those traditions.
Worf is not a good character to consider when discussing acceptable Klingon behaviour - he is, by Klingon standards, a pitiably traumatised individual who has learnt much of his 'culture' second hand. This is why he has such a literal interpretation of Klingon tenets - it is the zeal of the convert rather than someone who has inherited their belief system.
A mnuch better model is Martok - really the only proper Klingon regular Trek has had - whose view of life is much more pragmatic, moderate and brutal than Worf's. Other "good" Klingons could include Klag (A Matter of Honor) and Kang (TOS - Day of the Dove). The Klingon novel series from Pocket Books does a very good job of exploring the issue, focussed as it is on Martok's efforts to regenerate traditional values in the Empire post-Dominion War.
Anyway, the point is that the Klingon concept of Honour is not a simple code, any more so than real-world religions are. From the Klingon perspective, death is not a big issue (either theirs or other peoples) which means that killing is not something to get terribly excited about; they genuinely struggle to understand why Humans get upset. Even Worf - remember his line when Geordi is believed dead? "Today is a day to celebrate... a comrade has died in the line of duty". They bring the benefits of the Empire's technology, culture and protection to weak species that cannot protect themselves... if this means killing a few of the natives to make progress, such is life, it serves the greater good of both the Empire and its subject races. Similarities to historical empires such as the Roman, Ottoman or British are not coincidental. In the old Klingon view, the Federation is dangerous not because of what it does, but because the Vulcan / Andorian / Human alliance dresses up its rightful expansionism behind a false facade.
Worf is not a good character to consider when discussing acceptable Klingon behaviour - he is, by Klingon standards, a pitiably traumatised individual who has learnt much of his 'culture' second hand. This is why he has such a literal interpretation of Klingon tenets - it is the zeal of the convert rather than someone who has inherited their belief system.
A mnuch better model is Martok - really the only proper Klingon regular Trek has had - whose view of life is much more pragmatic, moderate and brutal than Worf's. Other "good" Klingons could include Klag (A Matter of Honor) and Kang (TOS - Day of the Dove). The Klingon novel series from Pocket Books does a very good job of exploring the issue, focussed as it is on Martok's efforts to regenerate traditional values in the Empire post-Dominion War.
Exactly. That's why I said that regardless of me liking and respecting Worf as a character, he's way too weird for a Klingon. When you pay attention to this, it's actually easy to notice just how different Worf was from almost all the rest of the Klingons we see in ST.
Like you said, he hasn't lived and served with Klingons his entire life so although he respects and adheres to Klingon beliefs and traditions, sometimes he takes them way to literally and is way to strict and uptight for your average Klingon.
I agree that Martok would be a better model to observe the Klingons. Also Klag and Kang. I'd argue that Kor also brings a interesting perspective on Klingons.
But if people like to get a glimpse of how real Klingons interact, think, react, follow their traditions and generally the behavior of Klingons within the Empire - I highly recomend reading the I.K.S. Gorkon novels, they really provide and interesting outlook on Klingon society.
Worf is not a good character to consider when discussing acceptable Klingon behaviour - he is, by Klingon standards, a pitiably traumatised individual who has learnt much of his 'culture' second hand. This is why he has such a literal interpretation of Klingon tenets - it is the zeal of the convert rather than someone who has inherited their belief system.
A mnuch better model is Martok - really the only proper Klingon regular Trek has had - whose view of life is much more pragmatic, moderate and brutal than Worf's. Other "good" Klingons could include Klag (A Matter of Honor) and Kang (TOS - Day of the Dove). The Klingon novel series from Pocket Books does a very good job of exploring the issue, focussed as it is on Martok's efforts to regenerate traditional values in the Empire post-Dominion War.
Anyway, the point is that the Klingon concept of Honour is not a simple code, any more so than real-world religions are. From the Klingon perspective, death is not a big issue (either theirs or other peoples) which means that killing is not something to get terribly excited about; they genuinely struggle to understand why Humans get upset. Even Worf - remember his line when Geordi is believed dead? "Today is a day to celebrate... a comrade has died in the line of duty". They bring the benefits of the Empire's technology, culture and protection to weak species that cannot protect themselves... if this means killing a few of the natives to make progress, such is life, it serves the greater good of both the Empire and its subject races. Similarities to historical empires such as the Roman, Ottoman or British are not coincidental. In the old Klingon view, the Federation is dangerous not because of what it does, but because the Vulcan / Andorian / Human alliance dresses up its rightful expansionism behind a false facade.
I would have thought the Klingon empire would view the protectionary and healer roles of the federation to be smothering and allowing the weak to flourish at the expense of the strong.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
I would have thought the Klingon empire would view the protectionary and healer roles of the federation to be smothering and allowing the weak to flourish at the expense of the strong.
When watching Undiscovered Country recently on Blu-Ray, there was a segment where the Klingon Chancellor and his entourage are having a formal dinner with Kirk, his officers aboard the Enterprise.
One of the Chancellor's men expressed one of the Klingon fears of the idea of being a part of the Federation is that the Klingons will lose their identity, their customs, everything they are.
With what we have so far in Star Trek TV shows and movies, that seems to be the case with some of the cultures and members of the Federation. When you look at Starfleet, it is abundantly clear that humans run and make the calls. Sure, you will find non-human Admirals and leadership in the Federation. But when you look at the style of Starfleet, the Federation, there is no characteristic of the membership. There is no "stamp" of the Andorians, despite being one of the original members, for example. It may be for the better for Starfleet and the Federation that it is so, to be absorbed into the greater good.
But it is exactly that idea, to be absorbed into being another stat in the very large Federation, that drove some concerns in the Klingon Empire, if that officer represents anything at all of the population.
Comments
you sound like a vary emotional type of person. might be better to stick to the federation side for you. since I was not lecturing, and I don't give a targs TRIBBLE how you Role play.
Worf is not a good character to consider when discussing acceptable Klingon behaviour - he is, by Klingon standards, a pitiably traumatised individual who has learnt much of his 'culture' second hand. This is why he has such a literal interpretation of Klingon tenets - it is the zeal of the convert rather than someone who has inherited their belief system.
A mnuch better model is Martok - really the only proper Klingon regular Trek has had - whose view of life is much more pragmatic, moderate and brutal than Worf's. Other "good" Klingons could include Klag (A Matter of Honor) and Kang (TOS - Day of the Dove). The Klingon novel series from Pocket Books does a very good job of exploring the issue, focussed as it is on Martok's efforts to regenerate traditional values in the Empire post-Dominion War.
Anyway, the point is that the Klingon concept of Honour is not a simple code, any more so than real-world religions are. From the Klingon perspective, death is not a big issue (either theirs or other peoples) which means that killing is not something to get terribly excited about; they genuinely struggle to understand why Humans get upset. Even Worf - remember his line when Geordi is believed dead? "Today is a day to celebrate... a comrade has died in the line of duty". They bring the benefits of the Empire's technology, culture and protection to weak species that cannot protect themselves... if this means killing a few of the natives to make progress, such is life, it serves the greater good of both the Empire and its subject races. Similarities to historical empires such as the Roman, Ottoman or British are not coincidental. In the old Klingon view, the Federation is dangerous not because of what it does, but because the Vulcan / Andorian / Human alliance dresses up its rightful expansionism behind a false facade.
Exactly. That's why I said that regardless of me liking and respecting Worf as a character, he's way too weird for a Klingon. When you pay attention to this, it's actually easy to notice just how different Worf was from almost all the rest of the Klingons we see in ST.
Like you said, he hasn't lived and served with Klingons his entire life so although he respects and adheres to Klingon beliefs and traditions, sometimes he takes them way to literally and is way to strict and uptight for your average Klingon.
I agree that Martok would be a better model to observe the Klingons. Also Klag and Kang. I'd argue that Kor also brings a interesting perspective on Klingons.
But if people like to get a glimpse of how real Klingons interact, think, react, follow their traditions and generally the behavior of Klingons within the Empire - I highly recomend reading the I.K.S. Gorkon novels, they really provide and interesting outlook on Klingon society.
I would have thought the Klingon empire would view the protectionary and healer roles of the federation to be smothering and allowing the weak to flourish at the expense of the strong.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
When watching Undiscovered Country recently on Blu-Ray, there was a segment where the Klingon Chancellor and his entourage are having a formal dinner with Kirk, his officers aboard the Enterprise.
One of the Chancellor's men expressed one of the Klingon fears of the idea of being a part of the Federation is that the Klingons will lose their identity, their customs, everything they are.
With what we have so far in Star Trek TV shows and movies, that seems to be the case with some of the cultures and members of the Federation. When you look at Starfleet, it is abundantly clear that humans run and make the calls. Sure, you will find non-human Admirals and leadership in the Federation. But when you look at the style of Starfleet, the Federation, there is no characteristic of the membership. There is no "stamp" of the Andorians, despite being one of the original members, for example. It may be for the better for Starfleet and the Federation that it is so, to be absorbed into the greater good.
But it is exactly that idea, to be absorbed into being another stat in the very large Federation, that drove some concerns in the Klingon Empire, if that officer represents anything at all of the population.