Big ship, small ship

squito

I've been thinking about this problem, or I could say this has been grinding my gears for a while. While a Fleet Tactical Escort Retrofit's base HP is 33k, a Bortas Battle Cruiser's base HP is 43.5k... but if a fleet defi would bump into a bortas, it would pop off and practically it would only remove a layer of dust. The size difference is roughly 10x, but the Bortas' hull is only ~30% stronger. Impossibru! While the escorts are capable of very high damage output and have very good maneuverability it does not have much less HP compared to a batllecruiser. Not speaking about energy pool and maximum energies. Large ships have much bigger reactors, therefore should have bigger energy pool and maximum energies. I'm not asking you to change the battlecruisers' hull to 700k+ and energy pool to 500, but right now the only property that is in line with their size is the maneuverability. And the amount of weapons... 7 on the fleet tac escort and 8 on the bortas.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqyixwqiCag

foxxblitz

First: You need to compare the Bortasqu' to the non-fleet Tactical Escort Retrofit which has a base hull of 30k.

Second: The Bortasqu is a cruiser which means it naturally tanks better than an escort. This is because it not only has more hull but more shield power ( Usually ), crew, engineering console and boff slots and a higher shield modifier. It is also worth noting that Structural Integrity favors higher hulls, so the hull bonus is significantly higher for the Bortasqu than the Tactical Escort Retrofit.

Bortasqu' War Cruiser
Hull: 43,500
Shield Modifier: 1.0
Crew: 3,600
Eng. Boffs: 1 Commander, 1 Ensign and 1 Lt. Commander Universal.
Eng. Consoles: 5

Tactical Escort Retrofit
Hull: 30,000
Shield Modifier: 0.9
Crew: 50
Eng. Boffs: 1 Lieutenant
Eng. Consoles: 3


You also have to consider science consoles and boffs and the fact the cruisers recently got a new toy called "Advanced Comm Arrays" which give them small buffs.

jagdhippies

If it was realistic everyone would be rolling around in scimitars, balance has to come from somewhere. Granted STO is not the most balanced game around, but you cant only go by the laws of physics, you have to sacrifice some details to make it playable.

Unknown

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bitemepwe

Hull Points seem to work like Hit Points in that thry are also a representation of a vessels durability as well az its over all health.

squito

@foxxblitz: Then the difference is 45%, which is still small compared to the sizes. Also escorts have the ability to outmaneuver larger ships quite easily.

capnshadow27

foxxblitz wrote: »

First: You need to compare the Bortasqu' to the non-fleet Tactical Escort Retrofit which has a base hull of 30k.

Second: The Bortasqu is a cruiser which means it naturally tanks better than an escort. This is because it not only has more hull but more shield power ( Usually ), crew, engineering console and boff slots and a higher shield modifier. It is also worth noting that Structural Integrity favors higher hulls, so the hull bonus is significantly higher for the Bortasqu than the Tactical Escort Retrofit.

Bortasqu' War Cruiser
Hull: 43,500
Shield Modifier: 1.0
Crew: 3,600
Eng. Boffs: 1 Commander, 1 Ensign and 1 Lt. Commander Universal.
Eng. Consoles: 5

Tactical Escort Retrofit
Hull: 30,000
Shield Modifier: 0.9
Crew: 50
Eng. Boffs: 1 Lieutenant
Eng. Consoles: 3


You also have to consider science consoles and boffs and the fact the cruisers recently got a new toy called "Advanced Comm Arrays" which give them small buffs.

If you are going to compare ships that are grossly different when they are supposed to be mirrored versions of each other, you have to Fight BortasQu' Vs. Odyssey

Bortasqu' War Cruiser
Hull: 43,500
Shield Modifier: 1.0
Crew: 3,600
Boffs: Eng Cmdr, Lt. Cmdr Uni., Tac Lt. Sci Lt. Ens Uni
Eng. Consoles: 5
Sci Consoles: 1
Tac Consoles: 4
Turn rate: 5.5

HoH'SuS BoP: Quads, Turrets, Transphasics, SUBSPACE JUMPER

Odyssey Operations Cruiser
Hull: 42,000
Shield Modifier: 1.15
Crew: 2,500
Boffs: Eng Cmdr, Lt. Cmdr Uni., Tac Lt. Sci Lt. Ens Uni.
Eng Consoles: 5
Sci Consoles: 3
Tac Consoles: 2
Turn Rate: 6

(Not on the Operations but)Aquarius Destroyer: Quads, Turrets, Quantams and a PDS that it never ever uses.

These ships are Grossly Mismatched.

Not a single Odyssey has 4 Tac Consoles. You cannot use all 3 Odyssey consoles at the same time. The 3 peice set buffs the Hoh'Sus on a Bortas, where as the 3-peice buffs the Chevron. Y'all get a better HoH'SuS with a disruptor autcannon and AP:B I, we get Tractor beam, GW, and gorram Work Bees.

Consoles.

HoH'SuS BoP, Disruptor Auto-Cannon, Subspace Snare. All very useful in their own right.

Aquarius Destroyer, Chevron Seperation, Work Bees. Not very useful in any right.

If you are going to compare ships compare the ones in the same weight class.

As far as Escorts go, all escorts should be closer to the T5 B'Rel Retrofit. Anywhere from 22,500k to 28,500k in Hp. Escorts have too much Hp.

squito wrote: »

@foxxblitz: Then the difference is 45%, which is still small compared to the sizes. Also escorts have the ability to outmaneuver larger ships quite easily.

Its true Escorts manueverability and Massive Defense buff from speed is off the charts. You end up as an escort out surviving everything on speed alone....

squito

capnshadow27 wrote: »

As far as Escorts go, all escorts should be closer to the T5 B'Rel Retrofit. Anywhere from 22,500k to 28,500k in Hp. Escorts have too much Hp.

I'd rather say that the cruisers' HP is too low, not the escorts' too high. I'd say about 70-100k HP for a cruiser (T5) would be ideal.

capnshadow27

squito wrote: »

I'd rather say that the cruisers' HP is too low, not the escorts' too high. I'd say about 70-100k HP for a cruiser (T5) would be ideal.

So you want Cruisers to be on Par with NPC boss ships?

No thanks. I don't need to be a super ship, Escorts need to be built from paper.

I can already push my Ships up to 60 - 70k through Skill points and add-ons.

Cuurently you have to as a Cruiser Captain sacrafice Damage for Non-Squishiness or Sacrafice Good Tankiness to get some Damage.

Escorts should have to make those same Sacrafices, and they don't.

Example.

Cruiser Shields. 1.0 Modifier - 6000 Shields
Escort 0.9 Mod - 5400 Shields

Escorts dont lose nearly as much as other ships. Seriously, they have generally 25% less hull than cruisers, 10% less shield than Cruisers, and usually at least double the Turn rate and Speed.

If Escorts were to remain where they are. Science would need Buffs first. Shields minimum of 1.45 Max of 1.6, and an increase in Hull at least 10%.

Crusiers get a Minimum of 1.2 Shield Mod Maximum of 1.3 and an Increase of 10% to Hull. Good start. So Essentaill Drop most Fleet ships down to regular, THEN Buff those into Fleet Versions.

So if you are Looking at the Galaxy, for Normal T5 it would be 44k Hull, and THEN the Fleet Version would be 48,400k Hull. My Odyssey would jump to 46,200 Hull.

Thats the Max i would go. Any higher and it would be ludicrous, also in Retaliation all NPC's gain 10% increases to THEIR Shields and Hull.

squito

In eSTF a boss ship's HP is usually a 7 digit number.

Also let me mention WoW. SH priests: low health, very low armor, bad@ss DPS. Warriors: very high health, very high armor, acceptable DPS.
In STO: Escorts: good health, good armor, bad@ss DPS. Cruisers: very good health, good armor, acceptable DPS.

capnshadow27

squito wrote: »

In eSTF a boss ship's HP is usually a 7 digit number.

Yes, but you have to start with Regular stuff, for Comparisons you can't just jump to Elite, that stuff overblown anyway.

You have to talk about the Regular which is only 6 digits usually but would need to be increased anyways.

You cannot increase survivability without increasing the enemies, people already complain the game is too easy.

squito

capnshadow27 wrote: »

You cannot increase survivability without increasing the enemies, people already complain the game is too easy.

Of course tweaking ships would make it necessary to tweak other things, like NPCs.