Let us see the opportunity cost of a typical AUX2Batt Build.
1) 3 doff slots. Unfortunately aside from technicians their are no doffs that allow for a neat new build that couldn't exist otherwise (aside from projectile doffs) nor are their many offensive doffs aside from those who reduce cooldowns and are trumped by technicians and A2B. This is less an issue of technicians being overpowered and more that there are no good alternatives that force the sacrifice. This is compounded by most new doffs being of the 'slot 1' type.
2) Two Lt Engineer slots and no room for alternate Aux2X abilities. This once again is a matter of the alternatives not being all that great and the fact that loosing engineer boff ability slots to gain tactical ones being a great trade, not to mention you really don't loose any engineering capability. Imagine if Aux2Strut was reduced to being an ensign level ability how much that dynamic would change.
3) Aux power. Right now it is bugged and you don't actually loose all your AUX power but if this was fixed it would present a giant weakness to these ships especially in PvP (polaron anyone?) and would put them back where they belong balance wise. Not to mention AUX power isn't particularly strong to begin with compared to shield or weapon power it's more situational.
Now why is everyone calling for a nerf?
1) Current meta in PvP. Take all your A2B cruisers and face a team wielding a few FBPs along with sensor scambles backed by doffs. Any premade team that cannot defeat an opposing A2B team is not that great. But most PvP now days is done in a PuG type format where the A2B shines thanks to it not requiring much co-ordination to work effectively.
2) It is FOM. Many players see how effective these ships are in premade groups where they stack APB on everything to deal stupid high DPS while equipped with every single expensive piece of gear. This creates a form of jealousy about them even though I still have a much easier time carrying a bad PuG with my escorts.
Why they function extremely well?
1) Attack Pattern Beta and resistance debuffs in general are OP. Always have been.
2) They do not require much teamwork or co-ordination to excel. I promise you a group of 5 escorts could do ESTFs just as fast with a good plan and min/max gear and I wouldn't be surprised if 5 sci vessels could as well. It would just require alot more co-ordination than spacebar mashing.
I think Thissler hit the nail right on the head here. Though I've voiced my opinion on this so many times I can't be bothered to type it again, just search the forums for "Aux2batt" posts by me to find one.
i m a pve player (cuz the pvp in this game really need a touch imo) and i use this build.
i'm not agree with the nerf until we can see some good builds for science officers that can put the same dps with the tacticals or at least be usefull somehow in pve. at this point science officers are a joke and unfortunatly i m one of them and i don't want to reroll.
My post was sarcastic but was "trying" to say that because of the way this game has been designed there will always be FOTM builds. Once they spread into the PVP queues and they are everywhere they scream and QQ for a Nerf. Unless it is something completly over the top like the Rep passive shield heal passave was on the Rep system launch where you could not die. Or the Resistance on Elite Fleet Shields that made it so the shields were immortal. Or the Elachi console. These were game breaking and obvious. But the Double tap and now this is just players not being happy about others being stronger than them or finding a build that they have not figured out how to counter yet. THese do not need intervention form the Devs. Due to they way Cryptic made this game there will always be OP builds and broken abilities and mechanics. Without a total overhaul to the entier metagame its just how it is. I'm just sick of the Nerf, Nerf, Nerf thread on anything that allows one player to blow up the ship of another. Someone has to die. Adapt.
Sorry if I appeared to be attacking you. That was not the intention.
I agree with you. My ideal situation would be one where there COULD be great builds are are just great. Not OP or broken. But a wide selection of builds available to do different things. At the moment its a bit of a bandwagon scenario. Every time something potentially great appears in the horizon, its so effective that it virtually negates anything by comparison, and as more and more adopt the clear winner it gets pushed into the limelight and soon becomes "OP" but popular demand.
Why whenever the community finds a build that makes other people die the PVP community cry for the Nerf hammer? When double-tapping was everywhere they cried and got it nerfed. Then a PVE fleet that spent time and money to come up with a successful and powerful version of the existing and old A2B build went into the PVE queus and made PVP'rs ships explode. Well they couldent have that, so once again the call for the hammer is heard once again. People there will never be perfect balance in PVP in this game. There will always be builds and players and pre-mades that can kill you.
Seems like the only thing that will end the calls for Nerfs is for there to be only White quality weapons, No consoles or C-sote items beacuse not every player can afford them or has access to them.
No skill tree as that allows customization and can lead to people having builds that are OP.
No Captian class's as that keeps everyone from having access to all abilities and that is unfair.
No Ship classes as that also creates imbalance as different ships have different specs and that is unfair. All ships need to be equal. otherwise you will have ships that are stronger than others and that is unfair.
No BOffs as that also allows customization of abilities and can create imbalance as not everyone will have the same skills.
No doffs beacuse they can also be used to create builds that are different than your opponent.
So...
to make that small community happy lets remove all these from the game so that they will not go boom anymore and everyone will be on the same level.
It always comes down to the haves and the have not's when the PVP community starts getting worked up.
I still do not see a problem with A2B builds but now that the have not's are getting worked up about it, it's only a matter of time before the build is "balanced" kind of like what I suggested in my earlier post in this thread.
I do not see Cryptic doing anything to A2B builds until after the sales bottom out on the Avenger and other Z Store ships that can make use of the build.
Now I am not saying that this was a setup by Cryptic to maximize sales of Zen Cruisers but if an opportunity happens to fall into ones lap one would be a fool to pass it up IMO.
A2B builds and the doffs that power it were put in place by Cryptic to give Cruisers a bit more punch in general in STF and PVP and make them look like viable options when compared to DPS heavy Escorts and it is doing just that.
As another poster already stated it is kind of a game design problem and I really do not know if this problem can ever truly be solved.
When you are trying to make money by selling in-game items Balanced = hard sell.
I was on the fence about getting the Avenger since I generally spend most of my playing time on KDF characters but now I need to see how well the Avenger works with A2B build
Come what may with A2B builds I am kind of glad that it has made Cruisers relevant again
I came over to PvP from the PvE side a few weeks before the BFAW spammers rocked the premades, etc. I was initially surprised at how well my PvE-focused A2B FAHCR held up during heavy PvP ganking sessions in ker'rat, etc. With a few tweaks here and there, I was able to turn it into an effective PvP platform.
However, as a Tac cruiser captain, I was a bit of a rare bird at first. Most of my Tac captain contemporaries were flying escorts or destroyer-sized ships. So when I started popping lots of seasoned PvP "fighter jocks," many players began asking me about my build.
I explained that it was just a classic Aux2Bat cruiser configured for maximum sustained PvE DPS using beams (beams!!!). It took a while, but after I melted enough of them in 1v1s and general ker'rat horseplay, the message sank in: A pure-DPS build could in fact have an impact in PvP play.
Of course, then came the "PvE Heroes" and their legendary run through the queues - a bunch of guys flying boats just like mine and shredding the competition. Now, A2B BFAW cruisers are the new FOTM. And with the arrival of the Avenger and corresponding Cruiser Commands, everyone has caught the A2B fever.
So...I'm no longer a rare bird among PvP'ers - that crazy guy who insists on bringing a PvE build (knife) to a PvP (gun) fight. But this knife of mine is sharp, and I'm genuinely pleased to see so many others discovering the joys of leveraging PvE know-how for PvP gain...
Do pvers agree with pvpers that a2b deserves a second look? It's too powerful? Are 2min cure elite runs normal?
Appreciated.
It depends, if i play with my fleet, no.
Do i play with the guys from dps-30.000, yes.
Don't forget people that do 30k/dps and more are the Sad-Panda's/TSI of PVE.
What to do agains a groups like that.. scamble & fb works great ( i have scamble & my pets)
Keybind: http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=9355971&postcount=463
Bone1970 don't believe in a no-win senario, Kirk's protege. Fed Tac.
Bone Trader don't belief in a no-win senario, Kirk's protege. Fed Tac.
Bone2 don't believe in a no-win senario, Kirk's protege. KDF Eng.
Warning: Not a native English-speaker, sorry if my English sucks.
A2b needs a second look. It is unrivaled and untouchable in pve when the above formula comes into play.
Easiest fix? Only ships with commander sci or commander engineer may use it...ships that have few tactical slots are what needs this capability, not ones that can borderline exploit it
Not sure if you've noticed but the ships with CMD Eng and Ltc Tac are easily near the top of effectiveness for this kind of build.
Those are exactly the ships most benefiting from this balance issue.
A2B is a large part of it, it is an enabler. It makes the ships that can run this better. It is not the single point focus of this issue.
It just isn't.
Nerfing Techs or A2B would remove the ability of a few ships to run this, lessen the ability of a few others, and for another small handful it wouldn't really affect anything in a dramatic way.
At the heart of this issue are 2 mechanics. Over-capping & Weapon Drain resistance.
Keybind: http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=9355971&postcount=463
Bone1970 don't believe in a no-win senario, Kirk's protege. Fed Tac.
Bone Trader don't belief in a no-win senario, Kirk's protege. Fed Tac.
Bone2 don't believe in a no-win senario, Kirk's protege. KDF Eng.
Warning: Not a native English-speaker, sorry if my English sucks.
FBP doesn't work, it's too obvious a counter, people can just stop firing. Also, feedback pulse does not have 100% uptime, even with doff enhanced polarize hull. Also the damage cannot be resisted without heavy constant and strong shield/hull heals and you still receive the full brunt of the damage while you only send back .5 to 1.9 of the incoming with only 50% shield penetration. They will always manage to out tank you.
I'm sorry I would have added in to use APD at the same time but I thought that much was obvious (bonus points if you bring sensor scan/apa for extra giggles).
PS: Don't forget to activate your TT a second or so after they pop their APB to completely negate it or you might have a bad time.
Lol RCK, you're funny. But I still love you. Aux2batt builds are not new. There were used for a long time before you came in by loner kirk captains. The only thing that's new is a full a2b tac team configured for maximum pressure dps.
FWIW, I never claimed that Aux2Batt was something new. Like everyone, I've been hearing about its supposed wonders since I began playing the game over 2 years ago. However, an Aux2Batt cruiser being an effective PvP platform? Now that's something new.
When I started PvP'ing in earnest about 3 months ago you could count the Ker'rat "cruiser regulars" on one hand. Even in the queues, the majority of cruiser boats were configured as tanks and/or healers. Nobody thought of them as having the kind of OP offensive potential that is now accepted fact.
I, OTOH, saw this potential well before the current wave of cruiser-mania. And while I was busy fine-tuning my own pressure-damage play style, the "PvE Heroes" were still gleefully running ISE in 2 minutes and high-fiving when the Tac Cube popped. The thought of hitting the PvP queues likely hadn't even crossed their collective minds yet.
So, did someone from that camp see me in action and say, "hey, what if we got all our boats together and multiplied this guy's effect?" Probably not. But I did find the hubbub surrounding their queue slaughter-fest - and the resultant PvP community handwringing - to be quite amusing.
To me it was old news. I'd been living la vida BFAW for weeks by then and leaving a trail of popped hulls (and egos) in my ample cruiser wake.
I've said this in other threads but the combination is absolutely insane to be allowed in the game. Multiplicative damage items can't be allowed to work together.
A2B - This isn't a problem, it has draws backs and its been around a long time. The only reason it is more viable now than before is because who needs to heal with the power creep added to the game? You just blow everything up faster than it can damage.
APB3 - Super powerful, always has been but affects hull only. Back when in the days when a tac cube's shields didn't go down in 0.5s it wasn't as strong. If using cannons APO3 or CSV3 are still viable, but beam builds and the ever increasing ships with cmd tac stations its APB3.
BFaW - Its recently been fixed, but there wasn't a real change to it then, nothing unwarranted, its not the problem, although functionally its a mess that doesn't make sense. Having bonuses and debuffs properly pass through it though is probably contributing it, but removing that is not the answer.
DEM - Has always sucked in PvE. It still sucks unless its modified by Marion, but allowing Marion to give tacs access to a weapon energy drain resist, which can double BFaW damage, double up DEM, double up a tetryon glider.. A2B is powerful, but when you let a damage multiplier like A2B exist, then allow Marion to multiple again on top of that, you are in seriously bad design grounds.
My suggestion has been to make Marion work off of Aux power, effectively disabling the combination, how that can work with a Doff.. i don't know.
Some context
a2b= using 2 auxiliary to battery while having 3 purple technician duty officers equipped puts all bridge officer abilities on global cool down (basically means you double up all bridge officers abilities).
bfaw= beam fire at will
apb= attack pattern beta, reduces resistance to damage.
dem=directed energy modulation, increased shield penetration or adds more damage to energy weapons (depends how you look at it).
marion= it's a duty officer that gives incredible resistance to weapons drain for a short period (8 sec) upon activation of dem.
So there has been a heated (slight overstatement ) discussion in pvp subforums over the overpowered nature of bfaw a2b builds, being able to stack certain abilities and producing incredible dps pressure that cannot be easily resisted. Here's the thread link. A coordinated team of five could pretty much slaughter an entire team simultaneously. This is what happened a few days ago, some pve folks (very elite folks) rocked the pvp queues with this build, suppressing their opponents, veterans premades teams included, with pure raw damage (nothing can hurt you if your enemies are dead). This started a phenomenon in pvp community, almost a movement, making this build a kind of flavor of the month build.
Now the pvp community are discussing certain mechanics that seem to be not working as intended, for instance drain on beams or the fact that a2b cruisers (or scimitars) are capable of producing and maintaining 40k damage per second. So the pvp community is kind of pleading devs to look into it some more and maybe even bring the nerf hammer on a2b builds. I have my own reservations about the whole topic but I also kind of agree somewhat, as far as stacking certain abilities anyways.
Now, this build is used extensively in pve, so I thought maybe the pve community might have their own opinions about it. I've created this thread here hoping to start a discussion What does the pve community think about this? Do pvers agree with pvpers that a2b deserves a second look? It's too powerful? Are 2min cure elite runs normal?
Appreciated.
How about a big NO. Go away back to the PvP forums :P
Damm, not again, PvPers cry nerf, its like no1 who PvP its ever happy??
I mean really, if you guys think you are godlike or something, PvP with mk I gear or even strip gear from your ships...
For awhile this game was all about escorts, and now since cruisers are actually playable a nerf would just draw the game back to escorts online as it was once nicknamed.
Ohh and in PvE, wich doesnt have anything to do with PvP becouse of TT cleanse, the thing about the 2 mins cure is not a2b. Its a mix of AP: Beta stacking and marionised DEM with BFAW spam combo. I dont use an a2b cruiser, but a recluse on an enginner toon. I get allmost the same results without a2b build with nadion inversion and Beta 3 (with 2 con doffs to reduce cd) and BFAW III and II along with elite weavers. But dunno if any PvPer tested yet the new stuff on trible, but things wont be like this much more, since voth ships will have imunity skills, reflect skills and even acetons so the beams should decrease in efectiveness in S8.
For awhile this game was all about escorts, and now since cruisers are actually playable a nerf would just draw the game back to escorts online as it was once nicknamed.
While I don't fly cruisers myself (can't go back to how slow they are), it's nice to not have a cruiser automatically mean a liability now.
Admittedly, at a certain point - I just started skimming the thread. For that, if I missed this being brought up, I apologize...
However, I couldn't help but notice a few folks talking about the situation as if it had not changed...that it's what it was a couple of years back with the introduction of the Tech DOFFs or even what it was when Marion was introduced.
How do folks miss everything that's been added to the game outside of that?
Go through, look at your build now...then start removing things that didn't exist a month ago, two months ago, three months ago, six months ago, etc, etc, etc. Obviously, you've got to do it on paper - but take a look at it, eh?
When a petless Advanced Obelisk with relatively TRIBBLE gear and a Rom Eng can pull over 10k DPS (w/o pets)...I don't see how somebody could say things haven't changed. Heck, there weren't Roms a year or two ago...
...but it's not a thing where Cryptic, imho, should go in and twiddle X or Y. It's the big picture, and in the end - it may not be a consideration for them...or it may be part of their revenue plans to keep it going like that.
All sorts of goodies allow the very casual player to get in there and have a blast. They allow the Speed Run guys to go faster with more power. That's revenue.
PvP...with all the complaints about balance...heh, that's got no place in a revenue stream - it's anti-profit.
Revenue's going to come from those two other groups...and giving them the most imbalanced stuff possible so they can gobble it up.
I dunno VD, keeping up in PvP is probably a source of revenue it's just a smaller number of people doing it. They probably spend the same amount of money or rather contribute to the revenue the same amount as any other group per person.
PvP may be a smaller number of people than the whole but they probably spend the same amount as anyone else.
I dunno VD, keeping up in PvP is probably a source of revenue it's just a smaller number of people doing it. They probably spend the same amount of money or rather contribute to the revenue the same amount as any other group per person.
PvP may be a smaller number of people than the whole but they probably spend the same amount as anyone else.
Oh, no doubt there's the actions...but the words - what Cryptic sees constantly posted...yes, it's hypocrisy. "Damn you, Cryptic! All your OP garbage! We want balance!" "Shhh, nobody's looking right? Here, take my money." "Damn you, Cryptic!"
It's just hypothetical - the sheer number of folks out there that do not PvP nor do high-end DPS/Speed Runs...the sheer number of them. Even if they spend less than half, less than a quarter of other folks - their sheer numbers should make them a larger source of revenue, no?
Oh, no doubt there's the actions...but the words - what Cryptic sees constantly posted...yes, it's hypocrisy. "Damn you, Cryptic! All your OP garbage! We want balance!" "Shhh, nobody's looking right? Here, take my money." "Damn you, Cryptic!"
It's just hypothetical - the sheer number of folks out there that do not PvP nor do high-end DPS/Speed Runs...the sheer number of them. Even if they spend less than half, less than a quarter of other folks - their sheer numbers should make them a larger source of revenue, no?
I just figured out how to quote on my iPad
Anywho yeah those are the casual PvE majority. As a percent of total revenue they do bring in more. Still I dare say PvP players per head might even bring in more due to the keeping up. I mean how many stock ships do you see in PvP?
Even these speed runs, mostly lockbox or premium ships. Thinking about it myself all mine are premium, consoles? Well I have more than my fair share of lockbox cross faction and premium consoles...most of which I rarely use yet I still got them.
Am I a hypocrite? Probably but out of my 5 main characters only 1 has a full lobi set, 2 others have only 1 lobi consoles. All have the special lockbox consoles, do I need them? Not really on most of characters, though my science ships drivers make more use of things like the leech or iso charge depending on the build.
Still certain things add to the power creep more than others.
A2B is a large part of it, it is an enabler. It makes the ships that can run this better. It is not the single point focus of this issue.
It just isn't.
Nerfing Techs or A2B would remove the ability of a few ships to run this, lessen the ability of a few others, and for another small handful it wouldn't really affect anything in a dramatic way.
At the heart of this issue are 2 mechanics. Over-capping & Weapon Drain resistance.
I'm wary of removing overcapping, because that will penalize low-end builds. Consider a low-end cruiser build cycling EPtS and EtPW without tech doffs, Marion, or rep items. Even with Weapon Systems Efficiency, I don't think such a cruiser is OP. If the problem is the combination of several different mechanics (some of them from expensive, high-end items), then it becomes difficult for Cryptic to decide what to nerf. It is not a good idea to nerf one mechanic that is fine in isolation in order to prevent a combination of effects. I think any change they do make will have to take the form of preventing multiple things from stacking.
I'm wary of removing overcapping, because that will penalize low-end builds. Consider a low-end cruiser build cycling EPtS and EtPW without tech doffs, Marion, or rep items. Even with Weapon Systems Efficiency, I don't think such a cruiser is OP. If the problem is the combination of several different mechanics (some of them from expensive, high-end items), then it becomes difficult for Cryptic to decide what to nerf. It is not a good idea to nerf one mechanic that is fine in isolation in order to prevent a combination of effects. I think any change they do make will have to take the form of preventing multiple things from stacking.
Along the lines of nerfing the all-you-can-eat buffet, but not nerfing the menu...
I'm wary of removing overcapping, because that will penalize low-end builds. Consider a low-end cruiser build cycling EPtS and EtPW without tech doffs, Marion, or rep items. Even with Weapon Systems Efficiency, I don't think such a cruiser is OP.
The problem though is that at the root of all of this is Over-capping + Resistance drain.
With the Adv Comm Array Weapons System Efficiency, 2 Piece Adapted Borg, and soon Spire Consoles that can also provide Drain resistance - nearly any cruiser that is moderately repped and geared will be able to perform close to this level.
Over-capping has been a mystery mechanic that Cpt. Gecko has only just recently confirmed not only existed but how he remembers it working...except it only works for Beams and not other weapons.
Weapon Drain resistance is still a, relatively, new addition to the game only a little more than a year old (Marion - Temporal lockbox, Sept 2012. Omega Rep 2 Piece Bonus, S7 Oct 2012).
Should Beam Arrays actually be doing better output than other weapons that were clearly designed to be better through limited arcs (DHCs, DBBs, hell even Single Cannons are supposed to be "better"with 180 degree Arcs).
Builds that use beams also have a Tactical Slotting advantage as they start with BFAW 1 at ensign level, and not Lt Level like cannons - meaning they can take their T3 at LTC and not Captain.
They also have no need of an actual target.
Over-capping grants no significant benefit to cannons, and Drain Res does nothing significant for DHCs (I still need to test Singles and DCs).
Also due to Arc synergy, it means BAs are better than DBBs.
Over-capping doesn't even benefit Beam Overload, a Beam Power.
It literally only benefits Beam Arrays, Dual Beam Banks and Fire At Will.
How does this mechanic make any sense?
I've actually put together a BA build without A2B, without Marion. The difference is really not as pronounced as you might think it is.
I could actually drop DEM, but DEM's contribution (depending on tier & other factors) is usually 5% to 11% - that's a large chunk to give up and is actually more noticeable than losing A2B or Marion on this particular build.
The worst part is the development vs. current metagame time/perception warp.
The devs are probably working on things to come in the next 3 to 6 months that will probably only make this issue worse. They probably are still working under an assumption that cruisers and beams need to be boosted.
By the time the reality of the current situation settles in, we're already going to have more power creep on top of what we have now.
Now, this build is used extensively in pve, so I thought maybe the pve community might have their own opinions about it. I've created this thread here hoping to start a discussion What does the pve community think about this? Do pvers agree with pvpers that a2b deserves a second look? It's too powerful? Are 2min cure elite runs normal?
Appreciated.
I actually do both PvP and PvE but I will answer the question.
First let me say that in PvP it is only OP if your enemy does not know how to counter it and if they do then the A2Bat swarm is so easy to kill it is a laugh riot.
That said the old "We want to nerf something for PvP so let's nerf the PvE'rs while we are at it!" thing that happens in STO all the time is up to bat again. However, really looking at it realistically I have to say that I would support this nerf IF it is done right. (How much chance is there of THAT?)
Really it makes things a bit too easy in some ways and frankly the enemy mobs are way too dumb and utilize far too little strategy and abilities for the players to really be able to stack up this sort of combination on them. Now I would LOVE for them to just make the mobs smarter and more capable of beating the setup instead but they will not really do that.
I would say that while they are fixing this though it would be VERY nice if they actually put in more Engineering skills and made the ones we have a lot more worthwhile. I mean at Ensign rank you have 4 skills which put each other into cooldown and one skill that is useless because you need to use TT. Also you may want to use higher version of those 4 skills which would also be put into cooldown by the weaker lower ones... This is why having more than one Engineering BOFF is almost always a waste. Having a Commander Engineer is almost as much of a waste as the majority of Commander level abilities are really lackluster of Engineering.
PS Fix the A2B bug where you get to keep your AUX while your at it.
That would be nice, but I believe at one point when Bort was working on revamping mines he flat out stated to us that dropping a BOFF abilities was basically a no-go.
It might not be literally impossible, but probably so much work as to be improbable. If I remember correctly, one of the bigger stumbling blocks were all of the already generated Bridge Officers or how new random BOFFs are created.
Quite a number of skills could certainly do with a bit of shuffling, like dropping some of the T1s that start at Ltc down to Lt, and the T2s to Ltc so T3s would solely occupy CMD station.
As it is now, for several powers the T2 is almost never used.
Marion is one of the tiniest pieces of this puzzle right now.
Take a look at Cruiser Commands Weapon Systems Efficiency and 2 Piece Omega Adapted set proc.
Take a look at what over-capping does.
Tiniest? No, the price tag of that Doff is clearly not indicative of tiny
This was happening before cruiser commands, though that was awfully overpowered.
Overcapping weapons has been around a long time too
The set pieces, again, nothing new
I have all these on my cruiser, but if I don't A2B and Marion it, I don't start multiplying my damage. A non-A2B/marioin cruiser is tanky/threaty/10-16k dps ship, has been for a long time. More with the new commands
You can only get to 30k with that combination, its not tiny, its multiplying your damage. Giving tac cruisers power drain resists was never in the weapon balance design, its why engs have them and tacs don't. Its a huge mistake.
Comments
1) 3 doff slots. Unfortunately aside from technicians their are no doffs that allow for a neat new build that couldn't exist otherwise (aside from projectile doffs) nor are their many offensive doffs aside from those who reduce cooldowns and are trumped by technicians and A2B. This is less an issue of technicians being overpowered and more that there are no good alternatives that force the sacrifice. This is compounded by most new doffs being of the 'slot 1' type.
2) Two Lt Engineer slots and no room for alternate Aux2X abilities. This once again is a matter of the alternatives not being all that great and the fact that loosing engineer boff ability slots to gain tactical ones being a great trade, not to mention you really don't loose any engineering capability. Imagine if Aux2Strut was reduced to being an ensign level ability how much that dynamic would change.
3) Aux power. Right now it is bugged and you don't actually loose all your AUX power but if this was fixed it would present a giant weakness to these ships especially in PvP (polaron anyone?) and would put them back where they belong balance wise. Not to mention AUX power isn't particularly strong to begin with compared to shield or weapon power it's more situational.
Now why is everyone calling for a nerf?
1) Current meta in PvP. Take all your A2B cruisers and face a team wielding a few FBPs along with sensor scambles backed by doffs. Any premade team that cannot defeat an opposing A2B team is not that great. But most PvP now days is done in a PuG type format where the A2B shines thanks to it not requiring much co-ordination to work effectively.
2) It is FOM. Many players see how effective these ships are in premade groups where they stack APB on everything to deal stupid high DPS while equipped with every single expensive piece of gear. This creates a form of jealousy about them even though I still have a much easier time carrying a bad PuG with my escorts.
Why they function extremely well?
1) Attack Pattern Beta and resistance debuffs in general are OP. Always have been.
2) They do not require much teamwork or co-ordination to excel. I promise you a group of 5 escorts could do ESTFs just as fast with a good plan and min/max gear and I wouldn't be surprised if 5 sci vessels could as well. It would just require alot more co-ordination than spacebar mashing.
i'm not agree with the nerf until we can see some good builds for science officers that can put the same dps with the tacticals or at least be usefull somehow in pve. at this point science officers are a joke and unfortunatly i m one of them and i don't want to reroll.
Sorry if I appeared to be attacking you. That was not the intention.
I agree with you. My ideal situation would be one where there COULD be great builds are are just great. Not OP or broken. But a wide selection of builds available to do different things. At the moment its a bit of a bandwagon scenario. Every time something potentially great appears in the horizon, its so effective that it virtually negates anything by comparison, and as more and more adopt the clear winner it gets pushed into the limelight and soon becomes "OP" but popular demand.
It always comes down to the haves and the have not's when the PVP community starts getting worked up.
I still do not see a problem with A2B builds but now that the have not's are getting worked up about it, it's only a matter of time before the build is "balanced" kind of like what I suggested in my earlier post in this thread.
I do not see Cryptic doing anything to A2B builds until after the sales bottom out on the Avenger and other Z Store ships that can make use of the build.
Now I am not saying that this was a setup by Cryptic to maximize sales of Zen Cruisers but if an opportunity happens to fall into ones lap one would be a fool to pass it up IMO.
A2B builds and the doffs that power it were put in place by Cryptic to give Cruisers a bit more punch in general in STF and PVP and make them look like viable options when compared to DPS heavy Escorts and it is doing just that.
As another poster already stated it is kind of a game design problem and I really do not know if this problem can ever truly be solved.
When you are trying to make money by selling in-game items Balanced = hard sell.
I was on the fence about getting the Avenger since I generally spend most of my playing time on KDF characters but now I need to see how well the Avenger works with A2B build
Come what may with A2B builds I am kind of glad that it has made Cruisers relevant again
However, as a Tac cruiser captain, I was a bit of a rare bird at first. Most of my Tac captain contemporaries were flying escorts or destroyer-sized ships. So when I started popping lots of seasoned PvP "fighter jocks," many players began asking me about my build.
I explained that it was just a classic Aux2Bat cruiser configured for maximum sustained PvE DPS using beams (beams!!!). It took a while, but after I melted enough of them in 1v1s and general ker'rat horseplay, the message sank in: A pure-DPS build could in fact have an impact in PvP play.
Of course, then came the "PvE Heroes" and their legendary run through the queues - a bunch of guys flying boats just like mine and shredding the competition. Now, A2B BFAW cruisers are the new FOTM. And with the arrival of the Avenger and corresponding Cruiser Commands, everyone has caught the A2B fever.
So...I'm no longer a rare bird among PvP'ers - that crazy guy who insists on bringing a PvE build (knife) to a PvP (gun) fight. But this knife of mine is sharp, and I'm genuinely pleased to see so many others discovering the joys of leveraging PvE know-how for PvP gain...
RCK
It depends, if i play with my fleet, no.
Do i play with the guys from dps-30.000, yes.
Don't forget people that do 30k/dps and more are the Sad-Panda's/TSI of PVE.
What to do agains a groups like that.. scamble & fb works great ( i have scamble & my pets)
Bone1970 don't believe in a no-win senario, Kirk's protege. Fed Tac.
Bone Trader don't belief in a no-win senario, Kirk's protege. Fed Tac.
Bone2 don't believe in a no-win senario, Kirk's protege. KDF Eng.
Warning: Not a native English-speaker, sorry if my English sucks.
Not sure if you've noticed but the ships with CMD Eng and Ltc Tac are easily near the top of effectiveness for this kind of build.
Those are exactly the ships most benefiting from this balance issue.
A2B is a large part of it, it is an enabler. It makes the ships that can run this better. It is not the single point focus of this issue.
It just isn't.
Nerfing Techs or A2B would remove the ability of a few ships to run this, lessen the ability of a few others, and for another small handful it wouldn't really affect anything in a dramatic way.
At the heart of this issue are 2 mechanics. Over-capping & Weapon Drain resistance.
Bone1970 don't believe in a no-win senario, Kirk's protege. Fed Tac.
Bone Trader don't belief in a no-win senario, Kirk's protege. Fed Tac.
Bone2 don't believe in a no-win senario, Kirk's protege. KDF Eng.
Warning: Not a native English-speaker, sorry if my English sucks.
I'm sorry I would have added in to use APD at the same time but I thought that much was obvious (bonus points if you bring sensor scan/apa for extra giggles).
PS: Don't forget to activate your TT a second or so after they pop their APB to completely negate it or you might have a bad time.
PPS: Polaron!
FWIW, I never claimed that Aux2Batt was something new. Like everyone, I've been hearing about its supposed wonders since I began playing the game over 2 years ago. However, an Aux2Batt cruiser being an effective PvP platform? Now that's something new.
When I started PvP'ing in earnest about 3 months ago you could count the Ker'rat "cruiser regulars" on one hand. Even in the queues, the majority of cruiser boats were configured as tanks and/or healers. Nobody thought of them as having the kind of OP offensive potential that is now accepted fact.
I, OTOH, saw this potential well before the current wave of cruiser-mania. And while I was busy fine-tuning my own pressure-damage play style, the "PvE Heroes" were still gleefully running ISE in 2 minutes and high-fiving when the Tac Cube popped. The thought of hitting the PvP queues likely hadn't even crossed their collective minds yet.
So, did someone from that camp see me in action and say, "hey, what if we got all our boats together and multiplied this guy's effect?" Probably not. But I did find the hubbub surrounding their queue slaughter-fest - and the resultant PvP community handwringing - to be quite amusing.
To me it was old news. I'd been living la vida BFAW for weeks by then and leaving a trail of popped hulls (and egos) in my ample cruiser wake.
RCK
yes you can, you battle cloak
Solo STF's With Optional ISE: 3:34
i have all logs saved of these so if you would like to view them send me a pm and it can be arranged
A2B - This isn't a problem, it has draws backs and its been around a long time. The only reason it is more viable now than before is because who needs to heal with the power creep added to the game? You just blow everything up faster than it can damage.
APB3 - Super powerful, always has been but affects hull only. Back when in the days when a tac cube's shields didn't go down in 0.5s it wasn't as strong. If using cannons APO3 or CSV3 are still viable, but beam builds and the ever increasing ships with cmd tac stations its APB3.
BFaW - Its recently been fixed, but there wasn't a real change to it then, nothing unwarranted, its not the problem, although functionally its a mess that doesn't make sense. Having bonuses and debuffs properly pass through it though is probably contributing it, but removing that is not the answer.
DEM - Has always sucked in PvE. It still sucks unless its modified by Marion, but allowing Marion to give tacs access to a weapon energy drain resist, which can double BFaW damage, double up DEM, double up a tetryon glider.. A2B is powerful, but when you let a damage multiplier like A2B exist, then allow Marion to multiple again on top of that, you are in seriously bad design grounds.
My suggestion has been to make Marion work off of Aux power, effectively disabling the combination, how that can work with a Doff.. i don't know.
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How about a big NO. Go away back to the PvP forums :P
Damm, not again, PvPers cry nerf, its like no1 who PvP its ever happy??
I mean really, if you guys think you are godlike or something, PvP with mk I gear or even strip gear from your ships...
For awhile this game was all about escorts, and now since cruisers are actually playable a nerf would just draw the game back to escorts online as it was once nicknamed.
Ohh and in PvE, wich doesnt have anything to do with PvP becouse of TT cleanse, the thing about the 2 mins cure is not a2b. Its a mix of AP: Beta stacking and marionised DEM with BFAW spam combo. I dont use an a2b cruiser, but a recluse on an enginner toon. I get allmost the same results without a2b build with nadion inversion and Beta 3 (with 2 con doffs to reduce cd) and BFAW III and II along with elite weavers. But dunno if any PvPer tested yet the new stuff on trible, but things wont be like this much more, since voth ships will have imunity skills, reflect skills and even acetons so the beams should decrease in efectiveness in S8.
Purple Tech DOffs are free. Marion isn't absolutely necessary.
While I don't fly cruisers myself (can't go back to how slow they are), it's nice to not have a cruiser automatically mean a liability now.
You can however, tap a preset power bias to low weapons power.
No one is going to kill themselves on your FBP with their weapons power set to 30-50.
Marion is one of the tiniest pieces of this puzzle right now.
Take a look at Cruiser Commands Weapon Systems Efficiency and 2 Piece Omega Adapted set proc.
Take a look at what over-capping does.
However, I couldn't help but notice a few folks talking about the situation as if it had not changed...that it's what it was a couple of years back with the introduction of the Tech DOFFs or even what it was when Marion was introduced.
How do folks miss everything that's been added to the game outside of that?
Go through, look at your build now...then start removing things that didn't exist a month ago, two months ago, three months ago, six months ago, etc, etc, etc. Obviously, you've got to do it on paper - but take a look at it, eh?
When a petless Advanced Obelisk with relatively TRIBBLE gear and a Rom Eng can pull over 10k DPS (w/o pets)...I don't see how somebody could say things haven't changed. Heck, there weren't Roms a year or two ago...
...but it's not a thing where Cryptic, imho, should go in and twiddle X or Y. It's the big picture, and in the end - it may not be a consideration for them...or it may be part of their revenue plans to keep it going like that.
All sorts of goodies allow the very casual player to get in there and have a blast. They allow the Speed Run guys to go faster with more power. That's revenue.
PvP...with all the complaints about balance...heh, that's got no place in a revenue stream - it's anti-profit.
Revenue's going to come from those two other groups...and giving them the most imbalanced stuff possible so they can gobble it up.
PvP may be a smaller number of people than the whole but they probably spend the same amount as anyone else.
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
Oh, no doubt there's the actions...but the words - what Cryptic sees constantly posted...yes, it's hypocrisy. "Damn you, Cryptic! All your OP garbage! We want balance!" "Shhh, nobody's looking right? Here, take my money." "Damn you, Cryptic!"
It's just hypothetical - the sheer number of folks out there that do not PvP nor do high-end DPS/Speed Runs...the sheer number of them. Even if they spend less than half, less than a quarter of other folks - their sheer numbers should make them a larger source of revenue, no?
I just figured out how to quote on my iPad
Anywho yeah those are the casual PvE majority. As a percent of total revenue they do bring in more. Still I dare say PvP players per head might even bring in more due to the keeping up. I mean how many stock ships do you see in PvP?
Even these speed runs, mostly lockbox or premium ships. Thinking about it myself all mine are premium, consoles? Well I have more than my fair share of lockbox cross faction and premium consoles...most of which I rarely use yet I still got them.
Am I a hypocrite? Probably but out of my 5 main characters only 1 has a full lobi set, 2 others have only 1 lobi consoles. All have the special lockbox consoles, do I need them? Not really on most of characters, though my science ships drivers make more use of things like the leech or iso charge depending on the build.
Still certain things add to the power creep more than others.
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
I'm wary of removing overcapping, because that will penalize low-end builds. Consider a low-end cruiser build cycling EPtS and EtPW without tech doffs, Marion, or rep items. Even with Weapon Systems Efficiency, I don't think such a cruiser is OP. If the problem is the combination of several different mechanics (some of them from expensive, high-end items), then it becomes difficult for Cryptic to decide what to nerf. It is not a good idea to nerf one mechanic that is fine in isolation in order to prevent a combination of effects. I think any change they do make will have to take the form of preventing multiple things from stacking.
Along the lines of nerfing the all-you-can-eat buffet, but not nerfing the menu...
The problem though is that at the root of all of this is Over-capping + Resistance drain.
With the Adv Comm Array Weapons System Efficiency, 2 Piece Adapted Borg, and soon Spire Consoles that can also provide Drain resistance - nearly any cruiser that is moderately repped and geared will be able to perform close to this level.
Over-capping has been a mystery mechanic that Cpt. Gecko has only just recently confirmed not only existed but how he remembers it working...except it only works for Beams and not other weapons.
Weapon Drain resistance is still a, relatively, new addition to the game only a little more than a year old (Marion - Temporal lockbox, Sept 2012. Omega Rep 2 Piece Bonus, S7 Oct 2012).
Should Beam Arrays actually be doing better output than other weapons that were clearly designed to be better through limited arcs (DHCs, DBBs, hell even Single Cannons are supposed to be "better"with 180 degree Arcs).
Builds that use beams also have a Tactical Slotting advantage as they start with BFAW 1 at ensign level, and not Lt Level like cannons - meaning they can take their T3 at LTC and not Captain.
They also have no need of an actual target.
Over-capping grants no significant benefit to cannons, and Drain Res does nothing significant for DHCs (I still need to test Singles and DCs).
Also due to Arc synergy, it means BAs are better than DBBs.
Over-capping doesn't even benefit Beam Overload, a Beam Power.
It literally only benefits Beam Arrays, Dual Beam Banks and Fire At Will.
How does this mechanic make any sense?
I've actually put together a BA build without A2B, without Marion. The difference is really not as pronounced as you might think it is.
I could actually drop DEM, but DEM's contribution (depending on tier & other factors) is usually 5% to 11% - that's a large chunk to give up and is actually more noticeable than losing A2B or Marion on this particular build.
The worst part is the development vs. current metagame time/perception warp.
The devs are probably working on things to come in the next 3 to 6 months that will probably only make this issue worse. They probably are still working under an assumption that cruisers and beams need to be boosted.
By the time the reality of the current situation settles in, we're already going to have more power creep on top of what we have now.
I actually do both PvP and PvE but I will answer the question.
First let me say that in PvP it is only OP if your enemy does not know how to counter it and if they do then the A2Bat swarm is so easy to kill it is a laugh riot.
That said the old "We want to nerf something for PvP so let's nerf the PvE'rs while we are at it!" thing that happens in STO all the time is up to bat again. However, really looking at it realistically I have to say that I would support this nerf IF it is done right. (How much chance is there of THAT?)
Really it makes things a bit too easy in some ways and frankly the enemy mobs are way too dumb and utilize far too little strategy and abilities for the players to really be able to stack up this sort of combination on them. Now I would LOVE for them to just make the mobs smarter and more capable of beating the setup instead but they will not really do that.
I would say that while they are fixing this though it would be VERY nice if they actually put in more Engineering skills and made the ones we have a lot more worthwhile. I mean at Ensign rank you have 4 skills which put each other into cooldown and one skill that is useless because you need to use TT. Also you may want to use higher version of those 4 skills which would also be put into cooldown by the weaker lower ones... This is why having more than one Engineering BOFF is almost always a waste. Having a Commander Engineer is almost as much of a waste as the majority of Commander level abilities are really lackluster of Engineering.
BAM!
PS Fix the A2B bug where you get to keep your AUX while your at it.
That would be nice, but I believe at one point when Bort was working on revamping mines he flat out stated to us that dropping a BOFF abilities was basically a no-go.
It might not be literally impossible, but probably so much work as to be improbable. If I remember correctly, one of the bigger stumbling blocks were all of the already generated Bridge Officers or how new random BOFFs are created.
Quite a number of skills could certainly do with a bit of shuffling, like dropping some of the T1s that start at Ltc down to Lt, and the T2s to Ltc so T3s would solely occupy CMD station.
As it is now, for several powers the T2 is almost never used.
Tiniest? No, the price tag of that Doff is clearly not indicative of tiny
This was happening before cruiser commands, though that was awfully overpowered.
Overcapping weapons has been around a long time too
The set pieces, again, nothing new
I have all these on my cruiser, but if I don't A2B and Marion it, I don't start multiplying my damage. A non-A2B/marioin cruiser is tanky/threaty/10-16k dps ship, has been for a long time. More with the new commands
You can only get to 30k with that combination, its not tiny, its multiplying your damage. Giving tac cruisers power drain resists was never in the weapon balance design, its why engs have them and tacs don't. Its a huge mistake.
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