Remove shield distro on tac team and most tacs in escorts will return to rule the game.
Given now tacs in cruisers faw'in it up are doing that. Someone mentioned damage curves and peaks a few posts ago. Right now suppression over a longer window given your survivability in a cruiser is beating out timed spike in between tac team cycles as a decloak vaper. .... Mainly because of the amount of "oh snap" powers a player can hit in a 2 minute cycle.
I see no way to balance this so all players can be satisfied given the current mechanics and status of the game.
You can hull tank in a cruiser. I can have a 10k aux2sif in my cruisers. Every 15s that's 40k over a minute, 80k in the 2 minute cycle.
Add that with hazards 1 and 2 flexing 40k a minute. 80k in the 2 minute cycle.
That's 160k 2 minute cycle plus passive regen. With defenses well into the high 60's on all incoming damage. It was the best I could ever do.
Too much for a tac officer to have I would say, but not enough for an engineer to perform his role.
Bah. I don't know where to go from there guys.
Well you too make a point, albeit frivolous. Players can tank it up something special. Why would you spend so much opportunity cost to do so? I think that's where most would drum their chin. It's impressive having enough HP to justify a city ship(lol) but as I'm sure you know, there's hardly any stages out there that require it. No extra hull is needed where speed can't shave off the difference.
I think this is where the attraction begins and polarity transcends. Nobody wants the HP if it means a slower ship. People would rather zip around than slug it out slow. Especially if that means there aren't any bosses out there that require it.
For PVP? Nobody is into beating on a mountain. You'll be ignored quick which leaves you free to support your team but lots of folks find no comfort in the role when those players do a dandy job of healing themselves.
So the question becomes, do our devs have the fortitude to figure out a role that works this way in pvp? Or are they going to be mislead down this direction Geko has them going? See only revenue.. Only money.. Giggle over CBS memos that expressive satisfaction of sales... Those are turnips you won't find any human blood dripping from.
Ya kortaag I get your point too. But find it frivolous as well lol.
You can't do everything. You spec into defense or offense heavy, or a mix of the 2. You have to give up one to get the other.
They could make it work for HP tanking.. They could.. If they wanted to. But we'd need to hire 3 seasoned players to play the ghost of christmas past/present/future to even get those devs to wise up and implement more variety.
Ya kortaag I get your point too. But find it frivolous as well lol.
You can't do everything. You spec into defense or offense heavy, or a mix of the 2. You have to give up one to get the other.
Which would be fine if that was remotely true. I was gonna write more but let's face it, you know as well as anyone else here that to get a high defence and high damage escort it requires very little to be given up and you can have immunity to nearly all but subnuc ganking.
Or does no-one remember the days of 5v1 on JHAS and the JHAS would obliterate the other 5 so long as there was no subnuc?
Which would be fine if that was remotely true. I was gonna write more but let's face it, you know as well as anyone else here that to get a high defence and high damage escort it requires very little to be given up and you can have immunity to nearly all but subnuc ganking.
I don't think he meant Defense as in "Defense Score" I think he meant Defense as in overall mitigation level. Which is a combination of factors.
That defense score you mention is also one of the layers that suffers the most catastrophic failures when it is debuffed/stripped.
Or does no-one remember the days of 5v1 on JHAS and the JHAS would obliterate the other 5 so long as there was no subnuc?
Which JHAS, piloted by who? What 5 ships/players was he up against?
Statements like the above don't actually say anything about game balance, its a random anecdote about no one in particular.
Its also untrue the moment people stop playing in uncoordinated, unbalanced randomly composed situations and begin playing in organized team scenarios.
I'm not saying the JHAS wasn't better than every other available damage dealer for a very long time, but that time has come and passed.
Now its still an excellent top end ship, and its still the best in a very specific class "visible escorts" - it's not the best damage dealer, its not the best spike capable ship.
It's a team game, people need to learn how to play on a team and how to build a ship that functions as part of a unit - as opposed to the "my ship", "my build", kirk mentality that tends to prevail.
Oddly enough, once you do this the other "Team" skills like Sci Team and Eng Team begin to have an important place and you don't end up with 5 guys carrying nothing but TT one one side (read: failure).
I posted the following in another thread recently started by somebody looking for a new AP at Ensign ability...
I'm sure it will be as (un)popular here as it is likely to be there.
What would keep keep TT from becoming nothing but a cleanse at that point, when every other team is a Heal+Cleanse? Why diminish the value of one skill completely in favor of a new skill we really don't need?
Other than to cater to ships that don't want to use TT at all, and bring ST instead which would then become the defacto single best "Team" skill (read: not actually a solution).
The best fix that's been bandied about, not originally by me, was to:
1) Make manual distribution be always on.
2) Increase the effect of that new always on distribution, but less than what TT does now (perhaps by half).
3) TT 1 > 2 > 3 provide increasing better distribution, but even T3 would provide less than what TT 1 alone does now.
ST & ET, especially higher tiers, are actually useful and valuable.
Especially ST, ET should probably do abit more (perhaps add some passive regen bonus) since it doesn't cleanse very much and one of the main things it does cleanse (VM) - it doesn't actually cleanse properly.
Tactical Team
Removes hostile boarding parties for 10 sec
Removes tactical debuffs for 10 sec
+X Startship Energy Weapon Training for 10 sec
+X Starship Projectile Weapon Training for 10 sec
Distributes shield strength to shields receiving damage for 10 sec
Engineering Team
+X Hit Points
Repairs disabled systems and Engineering Debuffs for 5 sec
Science Team
+X Shield Regeneration applied once to each facing
Removes science debuffs for 5 sec
Each has the repair/cleanse element.
Each has the damage element (increasing damage, healing hull damage, healing shield damage).
Only TT adds an additional element...with the shield distro.
Even when it comes to the cleanse element, TT blows the other two away when you look at the sheer amount of debuffs that TT will cleanse compared to the other two.
APB, APD, FoMM, EWO BO+Pen, etc, etc, etc...with all that stacking goodness.
edit: erroneous info about Disruptor procs removed
Given all the bleed in the game - and more on the way - TT's not for shield distro, it's for cleansing the debuffs for the damage that's ignoring the shields anyway. Cause otherwise, you're dead - even with full shields.
Yeah I know about the defence score and how much it's suffered when nullified but it's also one of the best ways to mitigate damage too if the other players cannot nullify it reliably.
Sure in a organised team vs team game it's balanced but when you're not in an organised team it isn't balanced and unfortunately this game promotes teaming and helping as much as the NSA supports privacy.
I was mainly talking about some JHAS's I saw in Kerrat back when I was interested in PvP, a bit before attack pattern doffs came out, when you could endlessly farm it for dilithium =D
Dunno if any of those people still play, half my friends list disappeared with season 7 and I know a lot of people left at that time. Granted there's no way to account for skill but I did have a chat with a few of them and even they agreed that with defence so high and heals being pretty good even at ensign/Lt level they were unkillable except for subnucs.
Still even you have to admit escorts had it a little too good for quite a long time, high defence decent heals and best damage, but maybe I should shut up as this isn't an escorts vs everything discussion, it's about tactical team.
Something they could do to "improve" all of the teams is change the manner in which they cleanse as well.
xT1 has a 100% chance to cleanse an En ranked Debuff.
xT1 has a 75% chance to cleanse a Lt ranked Debuff.
xT1 has a 50% chance to cleanse a LCdr ranked Debuff.
xT1 has a 25% chance to cleanse a Cmdr ranked or higher Debuff.
xT2 has a 100% chance to cleanse an En or Lt ranked Debuff.
xT2 has a 75% chance to cleanse a LCdr ranked Debuff.
xT2 has a 50% chance to cleanse a Cmdr ranked or higher Debuff.
xT3 has a 100% chance to cleanse an En, Lt, or LCdr ranked Debuff.
xT3 has a 75% chance to cleanse a Cmdr ranked or higher Debuff.
Still even you have to admit escorts had it a little too good for quite a long time, high defence decent heals and best damage, but maybe I should shut up as this isn't an escorts vs everything discussion, it's about tactical team.
Man, I tells ya, for everyone that fights for what they want their ship to do in battle... Where is the love for the stay in the fight escort!!!
Did you ever consider...that's the issue? It's not meant as a stay in the fight ship? It's meant to do strafing runs, hit and runs, etc?
If we look at it from what Geko keeps talking about with classes being the ships, etc...and compare it to other games, so to speak...
Raiders = Assassins. They've got that wtfpwnzor ambush damage...but if they stick around in a straight up fight, they're toast.
Raptor/Escorts/Destroyers = DPS Fighters. They've got great damage, but they can't toe to toe for an extended period of time without some love coming from elsewhere (whether it's somebody else grabbing aggro or somebody tossing them heals).
You can sacrifice some of that DPS to make them sturdier...but that's a trade-off, it's not cake and pie with a nice glass of milk. With some of the Destroyers/Hybrids, they've already traded some of that DPS for being more sturdy.
But it's not just the Escorts being too sturdy...it's also the Cruisers doing too much damage.
Cause the Cruisers are those meatshield tanks, they're the Paladin healers, they're bringing support. But just like there are Destroyers/Hybrids, there are Battle Cruisers and Dreadnoughts. They sacrifice some of their staying power for more damage...like the Destroyers/Hybrids sacrifice some DPS for staying power.
Then you've got your Science Vessels which are your more magical classes, eh? Whether you're talking Mages, Warlocks, or Priests. They're doing the "magic"...
Add in Carriers which might fall into the "tank" or "magic" aspects depending on the type, and you've got them tossing out their pets which function like DoTs.
All the "classical" classes are here in the game...and just like all the other games, there's folks that don't want the class to work that way. Depending on how one wants to look at it, Cryptic's either done an awesome job in allowing folks to break the classes or they've done a crappy job of sticking with the classes.
Lol yeah sorry, I would say now escorts don't have it so good, certainly not compared to the destroyers and Lt.Com cruisers especially now everyone has access to accx2 weapons and the nukara console. Much easier to hit them and mitigate some of the defence.
Anyway this is about tactical team so we should stop. Also, VD I said a while ago, the damage boost given by tactical team just isn't comparable to the others.
Ultimatum also makes a good point that ET cleanses squat, perhaps a better idea would be to let it cleanse EWP and acetone and VM and remove them from hazard emitters? Before you dismiss it, think of the rage, just think of it
Each has the repair/cleanse element.
Each has the damage element (increasing damage, healing hull damage, healing shield damage).
Only TT adds an additional element...with the shield distro.
I think that's a bit of a biased way to list it.
List the actual damage boost it grants, and then take a quick poll how many people use TT for that boost.
Even when it comes to the cleanse element, TT blows the other two away when you look at the sheer amount of debuffs that TT will cleanse compared to the other two.
APB, APD, FoMM, Disruptor Procs (including oodles of variations), EWO BO+Pen, etc, etc, etc...with all that stacking goodness.
I noticed you didn't list out the debuffs Sci Team clears - it clears some pretty debilitating effects like SNB's recharge debuff, clears 30s duration Scramble Sensors, etc.
Go ahead and list out the amount of healing a top end spec'd ST 3 or ET 3 can grant, don't forget that ST 3 gets multiplied by 4 facings.
TT got the current distribution is has specifically because the player base thought it was a pointless skill prior to that.
Did you ever consider...that's the issue? It's not meant as a stay in the fight ship? It's meant to do strafing runs, hit and runs, etc?
The only ships that should actually do that are ships with battle cloaks.
"Hitting and Running" in a standard escort just does not work in arena matches - where team support & coherence dominates.
"Hitting & Running" is also pointless in a game where running and coming back means your target just heals to full if you didn't kill them on your initial hit.
It makes no sense in a game that is not based on attrition play.
That's why it makes sense for spike heavy ships that can actually close the deal, like Warbirds and Raiders, thanks to their ability to
A) Actually hide with a specific stealth mechanic. Have a larger burst attack with Ambush bonus.
C) Can time their attacks & protect their buffs while not being fired upon.
I'm talking about ships like the steamrunner or armitage tho.
Those are built for stay in the fight action no?
Edit: and I know how to build em fast too man. With the ability to do those runs you are talking about.
Not saying you don't...heh. More a case of saying that it looks like Cryptic is saying one thing over here on the left, doing something else over here on the right, and in the middle the player is caught up in a slapfight.
As for the Steamrunner and Armitage...personally, I see them as those Destroyer/Hybrids that should have more stay in the fight - I mean, compared to some of the other boats out there - their consoles/BOFF layout/turn/etc/etc/etc...kind of like the Chimera (that's going to be twisted with folks running the "Fleet" versions of the Vet ships down the road).
Course, I think - well, that the issue those boats are having staying in the fight is more to do with other things being out of whack rather than them being out of whack, eh?
The having to "overstack" armor consoles to deal with something...that's not really a player coming from a position of making a choice, it's more along the lines of a forced choice because something's goofed elsewhere.
I prefer choices...choices that might cause a person to drink or not sleep at night, those are fine...lol - because they're still choices. I think more choices should be hard choices in that sense. Heck, for the folks that don't want to make them - there are other folks who will do the legwork for them, they can just copy the build.
But the FotM adaptation thing...well, that's just good for Cryptic's wallet. Yeah, tinfoil hat time - but can't help but feel that's the case. To an extent, it's always been like that - but prior to S7 it was easy to reroll to keep up with changes (and there weren't as many as fast as we have now). Post S7 with the Rep stuff, yeah - it's more a case of shelling out for respecs or just disappearing off into PvEland and waiting for the cycle to come back around...
...man, I have no idea why I'm rambling like I am here. Lol, think I'm burnt out on the new F-Key Episode.
Anyway this is about tactical team so we should stop. Also, VD I said a while ago, the damage boost given by tactical team just isn't comparable to the others.
I thought I mentioned - hrmmm - did I? So many threads on the same thing...meh.
But yeah, the scaling of the damage increase from TT should be on par with what one gets from ET/ST. If not, then one can see the shield distro worked in as a balancing factor for that.
Ultimatum also makes a good point that ET cleanses squat, perhaps a better idea would be to let it cleanse EWP and acetone and VM and remove them from hazard emitters? Before you dismiss it, think of the rage, just think of it
Heh, I wouldn't dismiss it. I've got a history of - um - campaigning for changes to how cleanses work (and even where abilities should be). It tends to get into that area where the devs say, "That's nice - thanks for all the thought - but yeah, no - not happening."
List the actual damage boost it grants, and then take a quick poll how many people use TT for that boost.
Thought I had mentioned earlier in this thread (or one of them), that the +Dmg aspect of TT needs to be brought more in line with the +Heal aspects of ET/ST.
Though, there's also the boost to SAP that one can get from DOFFing TT - that when you get into that area of damage boost, it's more than you're getting from the TT itself.
I noticed you didn't list out the debuffs Sci Team clears - it clears some pretty debilitating effects like SNB's recharge debuff, clears 30s duration Scramble Sensors, etc.
Say you've got somebody with a single E-Neut Mk XII (+21.2 DRR), 3 Starship Threat (+5.4 DRR), 6 Starship Hull (+12.6 DRR), and the Accolade (+2.0 DRR)...
They're looking at 28.8% damage reduction.
An 8000 damage hit would do 5696 damage instead.
A 30000 damage hit would do 21360 damage instead.
Hit them with FoMM, a Disruptor Proc, an APD2, a couple of APB2s...
They're looking at a -39.4% damage reduction...or...an increase of 39.4% damage.
An 8000 damage hit would do 11152 damage instead.
A 30000 damage hit would do 41820 damage instead.
You could debuff them far more than that little example above. So yeah, somebody eating a recharge debuff or somebody being scrambled...well...cleansing those might buy them seconds, but without cleansing the tac debuffs - they're dead.
The only ships that should actually do that are ships with battle cloaks.
"Hitting and Running" in a standard escort just does not work in arena matches - where team support & coherence dominates.
"Hitting & Running" is also pointless in a game where running and coming back means your target just heals to full if you didn't kill them on your initial hit.
It makes no sense in a game that is not based on attrition play.
That's why it makes sense for spike heavy ships that can actually close the deal, like Warbirds and Raiders, thanks to their ability to
A) Actually hide with a specific stealth mechanic. Have a larger burst attack with Ambush bonus.
C) Can time their attacks & protect their buffs while not being fired upon.
All this is...is an example of what I said last in that post - and - have mentioned a few times. Cryptic is going all over the place with various things - there's a lack of cohesion. They've got the left hand doing one thing, the right hand doing something else, and the players are getting slapped about in the middle.
Just because there's too much magic wand healing taking place over "there(1)" - doesn't mean that something doesn't make sense over "there(2)"...it's just when you start bringing all the individual pieces together, that Excedrin's just not going to cut it for the /epicfacepalm that takes place.
That it doesn't make sense...is where it makes sense.
Hrmmm, besides though - isn't that how things are played out anyway?
All dogfighting is...is a dance of hit and runs as folks attempt to get their shots off while in arc and trying to keep the other guy from getting too many shots off while in their arc. It's a hit and run dance.
Coming up on a hardened target, you don't want to sit there too long on the target without popping it - because you leave yourself exposed to other folks lining you up.
Two Cruisers sitting there broadsiding each other is not going to be the same as two Escorts fighting or an Escort fighting a Cruiser.
The "Hit and Run" of a Raider is not going to be the same "Hit and Run" of an Escort nor is the Escort's going to be the same as a Destroyer.
It's not a black and white thing...there's 50 shades of gray.
The biggest failing of PvP combat in this game is that it's more about what you put on your tray (DHC and damage buffs/resist debuffs) than it is about using what your ship comes with stock (shield regen is way too slow, weapons are way too powerful) that what makes or breaks your ship in combat is the stacking of heals and/or damage buffs. The breadth of strategy is rather narrow. Escorts focus on getting that one big burst to one-shot their target. Science and cruisers focus on OMGWTF levels of healing/TT. The healing is really only needed because damage is so ridiculous.
One fully buffed DHC (Max Weapon/Energy Training, 5 tac consoles, 130 weapon power, APA, APO) will put out 5327 DPS. A regenerative shield would, optimistically, top out at 8K capacity. Without TT, RSP, and no heal, those shields might as well not exist. So first off, damage needs to go way down, starting with buffs. All weapons from DHC and down should have their damage reduced. DHC should also drain 20 points of weapon power instead of 12. nobody should be able to equip more than 2-3 DHC before taking an overall loss in damage. This means DC and single cannons become more desirable for their lower power drain and wider arc, respectively.
Then, healing abilities need to be nerfed in favor of a boost to passive regeneration. Instead of regen being X points every 6 seconds, it should be X points every second. So if your ship normally regens 100 every 6 seconds, it would regen 100 per second. That's 600 points over the standard 6 seconds or an increase of 600%. Capacity then needs a 50% boost from current numbers. Shield heals need to have regen removed and only have a resist and one-time small heal.
TT needs to have its distribution nerfed. Cap distribution at 50% of capacity. So when a 8K shield facing receives 4K, that facing can't receive any more until TT is activated again. That means one facing can't take more than 12K damage instead of a potential 32K.
Go here and show your support for a better Foundry!
TT got the current distribution is has specifically because the player base thought it was a pointless skill prior to that.
Problem is in giving the shield distribution it made TT much more important than ET. I am fine with TT, especially in the post FAWDEM world we live in. But ET needs something equally as beneficial, or maybe it is time to start talking about not having the Teams on shared cool downs. At least ET, since in its current state it is situational, not something that has excessive benefit from routine spamming like TT and possible ST (though I don't use ST that much on my cruisers so I am not sure how much others spam it).
PvE Jem'Hadar motto:Participation Ribbonsare life.
Comments
Given now tacs in cruisers faw'in it up are doing that. Someone mentioned damage curves and peaks a few posts ago. Right now suppression over a longer window given your survivability in a cruiser is beating out timed spike in between tac team cycles as a decloak vaper. .... Mainly because of the amount of "oh snap" powers a player can hit in a 2 minute cycle.
I see no way to balance this so all players can be satisfied given the current mechanics and status of the game.
Have fun kill bad guys.
-acceptance-
You can hull tank in a cruiser. I can have a 10k aux2sif in my cruisers. Every 15s that's 40k over a minute, 80k in the 2 minute cycle.
Add that with hazards 1 and 2 flexing 40k a minute. 80k in the 2 minute cycle.
That's 160k 2 minute cycle plus passive regen. With defenses well into the high 60's on all incoming damage. It was the best I could ever do.
Too much for a tac officer to have I would say, but not enough for an engineer to perform his role.
Bah. I don't know where to go from there guys.
Well you too make a point, albeit frivolous. Players can tank it up something special. Why would you spend so much opportunity cost to do so? I think that's where most would drum their chin. It's impressive having enough HP to justify a city ship(lol) but as I'm sure you know, there's hardly any stages out there that require it. No extra hull is needed where speed can't shave off the difference.
I think this is where the attraction begins and polarity transcends. Nobody wants the HP if it means a slower ship. People would rather zip around than slug it out slow. Especially if that means there aren't any bosses out there that require it.
For PVP? Nobody is into beating on a mountain. You'll be ignored quick which leaves you free to support your team but lots of folks find no comfort in the role when those players do a dandy job of healing themselves.
So the question becomes, do our devs have the fortitude to figure out a role that works this way in pvp? Or are they going to be mislead down this direction Geko has them going? See only revenue.. Only money.. Giggle over CBS memos that expressive satisfaction of sales... Those are turnips you won't find any human blood dripping from.
You can't do everything. You spec into defense or offense heavy, or a mix of the 2. You have to give up one to get the other.
They could make it work for HP tanking.. They could.. If they wanted to. But we'd need to hire 3 seasoned players to play the ghost of christmas past/present/future to even get those devs to wise up and implement more variety.
Le Sigh, no?
Which would be fine if that was remotely true. I was gonna write more but let's face it, you know as well as anyone else here that to get a high defence and high damage escort it requires very little to be given up and you can have immunity to nearly all but subnuc ganking.
Or does no-one remember the days of 5v1 on JHAS and the JHAS would obliterate the other 5 so long as there was no subnuc?
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
Escorts are too damn tough, but not tough enough to survive a faw cruiser ball.
Cruisers are also barely strong enough to stand against the faw ball, but hadle the damage windows better.
A defensive minded cruiser or Sci ship can handle it all but sacrifices a ton of damage potential to do so.
Tac team saves everyone's TRIBBLE when spiked. So does RSP.
Everyone (eng and sci) who has heal potential gives it up so they can do more damage.
Tacs give up damage potential to stay in the fight longer.
We want to do everything ourselves instead of relying on our teammates for their strengths.
I don't think he meant Defense as in "Defense Score" I think he meant Defense as in overall mitigation level. Which is a combination of factors.
That defense score you mention is also one of the layers that suffers the most catastrophic failures when it is debuffed/stripped.
Which JHAS, piloted by who? What 5 ships/players was he up against?
Statements like the above don't actually say anything about game balance, its a random anecdote about no one in particular.
Its also untrue the moment people stop playing in uncoordinated, unbalanced randomly composed situations and begin playing in organized team scenarios.
I'm not saying the JHAS wasn't better than every other available damage dealer for a very long time, but that time has come and passed.
Now its still an excellent top end ship, and its still the best in a very specific class "visible escorts" - it's not the best damage dealer, its not the best spike capable ship.
It's a team game, people need to learn how to play on a team and how to build a ship that functions as part of a unit - as opposed to the "my ship", "my build", kirk mentality that tends to prevail.
Oddly enough, once you do this the other "Team" skills like Sci Team and Eng Team begin to have an important place and you don't end up with 5 guys carrying nothing but TT one one side (read: failure).
I'm sure it will be as (un)popular here as it is likely to be there.
What would keep keep TT from becoming nothing but a cleanse at that point, when every other team is a Heal+Cleanse? Why diminish the value of one skill completely in favor of a new skill we really don't need?
Other than to cater to ships that don't want to use TT at all, and bring ST instead which would then become the defacto single best "Team" skill (read: not actually a solution).
The best fix that's been bandied about, not originally by me, was to:
1) Make manual distribution be always on.
2) Increase the effect of that new always on distribution, but less than what TT does now (perhaps by half).
3) TT 1 > 2 > 3 provide increasing better distribution, but even T3 would provide less than what TT 1 alone does now.
ST & ET, especially higher tiers, are actually useful and valuable.
Especially ST, ET should probably do abit more (perhaps add some passive regen bonus) since it doesn't cleanse very much and one of the main things it does cleanse (VM) - it doesn't actually cleanse properly.
That's the thing though...I don't see it that way. Like I posted in another thread (maybe have even reposted in this thread)...
Each has the repair/cleanse element.
Each has the damage element (increasing damage, healing hull damage, healing shield damage).
Only TT adds an additional element...with the shield distro.
Even when it comes to the cleanse element, TT blows the other two away when you look at the sheer amount of debuffs that TT will cleanse compared to the other two.
APB, APD, FoMM, EWO BO+Pen, etc, etc, etc...with all that stacking goodness.
edit: erroneous info about Disruptor procs removed
Given all the bleed in the game - and more on the way - TT's not for shield distro, it's for cleansing the debuffs for the damage that's ignoring the shields anyway. Cause otherwise, you're dead - even with full shields.
Sure in a organised team vs team game it's balanced but when you're not in an organised team it isn't balanced and unfortunately this game promotes teaming and helping as much as the NSA supports privacy.
I was mainly talking about some JHAS's I saw in Kerrat back when I was interested in PvP, a bit before attack pattern doffs came out, when you could endlessly farm it for dilithium =D
Dunno if any of those people still play, half my friends list disappeared with season 7 and I know a lot of people left at that time. Granted there's no way to account for skill but I did have a chat with a few of them and even they agreed that with defence so high and heals being pretty good even at ensign/Lt level they were unkillable except for subnucs.
Still even you have to admit escorts had it a little too good for quite a long time, high defence decent heals and best damage, but maybe I should shut up as this isn't an escorts vs everything discussion, it's about tactical team.
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
xT1 has a 100% chance to cleanse an En ranked Debuff.
xT1 has a 75% chance to cleanse a Lt ranked Debuff.
xT1 has a 50% chance to cleanse a LCdr ranked Debuff.
xT1 has a 25% chance to cleanse a Cmdr ranked or higher Debuff.
xT2 has a 100% chance to cleanse an En or Lt ranked Debuff.
xT2 has a 75% chance to cleanse a LCdr ranked Debuff.
xT2 has a 50% chance to cleanse a Cmdr ranked or higher Debuff.
xT3 has a 100% chance to cleanse an En, Lt, or LCdr ranked Debuff.
xT3 has a 75% chance to cleanse a Cmdr ranked or higher Debuff.
Even being all speedy doesn't help much.
Lol aux2sif1 with lol low aux power.... And ha ha hazards as a hull heal. Better as a cleanse on a Scort.
Give up a ton of critical damage potential thru uni consoles and run 3-4 neutroniums is the best I could come up with. Still can't mitigate that mess.
Ah well. Just leveled up my rommie tac. Gonna go spike with that one. And put my fed back in his fancy new cruiser and join in the faw fun.
Man, I tells ya, for everyone that fights for what they want their ship to do in battle... Where is the love for the stay in the fight escort!!!
.....melts.......
And just when I post griping about my Scort. Lol.
Did you ever consider...that's the issue? It's not meant as a stay in the fight ship? It's meant to do strafing runs, hit and runs, etc?
If we look at it from what Geko keeps talking about with classes being the ships, etc...and compare it to other games, so to speak...
Raiders = Assassins. They've got that wtfpwnzor ambush damage...but if they stick around in a straight up fight, they're toast.
Raptor/Escorts/Destroyers = DPS Fighters. They've got great damage, but they can't toe to toe for an extended period of time without some love coming from elsewhere (whether it's somebody else grabbing aggro or somebody tossing them heals).
You can sacrifice some of that DPS to make them sturdier...but that's a trade-off, it's not cake and pie with a nice glass of milk. With some of the Destroyers/Hybrids, they've already traded some of that DPS for being more sturdy.
But it's not just the Escorts being too sturdy...it's also the Cruisers doing too much damage.
Cause the Cruisers are those meatshield tanks, they're the Paladin healers, they're bringing support. But just like there are Destroyers/Hybrids, there are Battle Cruisers and Dreadnoughts. They sacrifice some of their staying power for more damage...like the Destroyers/Hybrids sacrifice some DPS for staying power.
Then you've got your Science Vessels which are your more magical classes, eh? Whether you're talking Mages, Warlocks, or Priests. They're doing the "magic"...
Add in Carriers which might fall into the "tank" or "magic" aspects depending on the type, and you've got them tossing out their pets which function like DoTs.
All the "classical" classes are here in the game...and just like all the other games, there's folks that don't want the class to work that way. Depending on how one wants to look at it, Cryptic's either done an awesome job in allowing folks to break the classes or they've done a crappy job of sticking with the classes.
I'm talking about ships like the steamrunner or armitage tho.
Those are built for stay in the fight action no?
Edit: and I know how to build em fast too man. With the ability to do those runs you are talking about.
Anyway this is about tactical team so we should stop. Also, VD I said a while ago, the damage boost given by tactical team just isn't comparable to the others.
Ultimatum also makes a good point that ET cleanses squat, perhaps a better idea would be to let it cleanse EWP and acetone and VM and remove them from hazard emitters? Before you dismiss it, think of the rage, just think of it
Also, lol, snipsies, love it.
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
I think that's a bit of a biased way to list it.
List the actual damage boost it grants, and then take a quick poll how many people use TT for that boost.
I noticed you didn't list out the debuffs Sci Team clears - it clears some pretty debilitating effects like SNB's recharge debuff, clears 30s duration Scramble Sensors, etc.
Go ahead and list out the amount of healing a top end spec'd ST 3 or ET 3 can grant, don't forget that ST 3 gets multiplied by 4 facings.
TT got the current distribution is has specifically because the player base thought it was a pointless skill prior to that.
The only ships that should actually do that are ships with battle cloaks.
"Hitting and Running" in a standard escort just does not work in arena matches - where team support & coherence dominates.
"Hitting & Running" is also pointless in a game where running and coming back means your target just heals to full if you didn't kill them on your initial hit.
It makes no sense in a game that is not based on attrition play.
That's why it makes sense for spike heavy ships that can actually close the deal, like Warbirds and Raiders, thanks to their ability to
A) Actually hide with a specific stealth mechanic.
C) Can time their attacks & protect their buffs while not being fired upon.
Not saying you don't...heh. More a case of saying that it looks like Cryptic is saying one thing over here on the left, doing something else over here on the right, and in the middle the player is caught up in a slapfight.
As for the Steamrunner and Armitage...personally, I see them as those Destroyer/Hybrids that should have more stay in the fight - I mean, compared to some of the other boats out there - their consoles/BOFF layout/turn/etc/etc/etc...kind of like the Chimera (that's going to be twisted with folks running the "Fleet" versions of the Vet ships down the road).
Course, I think - well, that the issue those boats are having staying in the fight is more to do with other things being out of whack rather than them being out of whack, eh?
The having to "overstack" armor consoles to deal with something...that's not really a player coming from a position of making a choice, it's more along the lines of a forced choice because something's goofed elsewhere.
I prefer choices...choices that might cause a person to drink or not sleep at night, those are fine...lol - because they're still choices. I think more choices should be hard choices in that sense. Heck, for the folks that don't want to make them - there are other folks who will do the legwork for them, they can just copy the build.
But the FotM adaptation thing...well, that's just good for Cryptic's wallet. Yeah, tinfoil hat time - but can't help but feel that's the case. To an extent, it's always been like that - but prior to S7 it was easy to reroll to keep up with changes (and there weren't as many as fast as we have now). Post S7 with the Rep stuff, yeah - it's more a case of shelling out for respecs or just disappearing off into PvEland and waiting for the cycle to come back around...
...man, I have no idea why I'm rambling like I am here. Lol, think I'm burnt out on the new F-Key Episode.
I thought I mentioned - hrmmm - did I? So many threads on the same thing...meh.
But yeah, the scaling of the damage increase from TT should be on par with what one gets from ET/ST. If not, then one can see the shield distro worked in as a balancing factor for that.
Heh, I wouldn't dismiss it. I've got a history of - um - campaigning for changes to how cleanses work (and even where abilities should be). It tends to get into that area where the devs say, "That's nice - thanks for all the thought - but yeah, no - not happening."
Thought I had mentioned earlier in this thread (or one of them), that the +Dmg aspect of TT needs to be brought more in line with the +Heal aspects of ET/ST.
Though, there's also the boost to SAP that one can get from DOFFing TT - that when you get into that area of damage boost, it's more than you're getting from the TT itself.
Say you've got somebody with a single E-Neut Mk XII (+21.2 DRR), 3 Starship Threat (+5.4 DRR), 6 Starship Hull (+12.6 DRR), and the Accolade (+2.0 DRR)...
They're looking at 28.8% damage reduction.
An 8000 damage hit would do 5696 damage instead.
A 30000 damage hit would do 21360 damage instead.
Hit them with FoMM, a Disruptor Proc, an APD2, a couple of APB2s...
They're looking at a -39.4% damage reduction...or...an increase of 39.4% damage.
An 8000 damage hit would do 11152 damage instead.
A 30000 damage hit would do 41820 damage instead.
You could debuff them far more than that little example above. So yeah, somebody eating a recharge debuff or somebody being scrambled...well...cleansing those might buy them seconds, but without cleansing the tac debuffs - they're dead.
Look at the boost a DOFF'd TT can add to the damage coming from stacked APA3/APO3 on a Crit...
The same playerbase that claimed it was unfair that the Feds got the Avenger and that the Romulans needed some sort of buff too?
All this is...is an example of what I said last in that post - and - have mentioned a few times. Cryptic is going all over the place with various things - there's a lack of cohesion. They've got the left hand doing one thing, the right hand doing something else, and the players are getting slapped about in the middle.
Just because there's too much magic wand healing taking place over "there(1)" - doesn't mean that something doesn't make sense over "there(2)"...it's just when you start bringing all the individual pieces together, that Excedrin's just not going to cut it for the /epicfacepalm that takes place.
That it doesn't make sense...is where it makes sense.
All dogfighting is...is a dance of hit and runs as folks attempt to get their shots off while in arc and trying to keep the other guy from getting too many shots off while in their arc. It's a hit and run dance.
Coming up on a hardened target, you don't want to sit there too long on the target without popping it - because you leave yourself exposed to other folks lining you up.
Two Cruisers sitting there broadsiding each other is not going to be the same as two Escorts fighting or an Escort fighting a Cruiser.
The "Hit and Run" of a Raider is not going to be the same "Hit and Run" of an Escort nor is the Escort's going to be the same as a Destroyer.
It's not a black and white thing...there's 50 shades of gray.
One fully buffed DHC (Max Weapon/Energy Training, 5 tac consoles, 130 weapon power, APA, APO) will put out 5327 DPS. A regenerative shield would, optimistically, top out at 8K capacity. Without TT, RSP, and no heal, those shields might as well not exist. So first off, damage needs to go way down, starting with buffs. All weapons from DHC and down should have their damage reduced. DHC should also drain 20 points of weapon power instead of 12. nobody should be able to equip more than 2-3 DHC before taking an overall loss in damage. This means DC and single cannons become more desirable for their lower power drain and wider arc, respectively.
Then, healing abilities need to be nerfed in favor of a boost to passive regeneration. Instead of regen being X points every 6 seconds, it should be X points every second. So if your ship normally regens 100 every 6 seconds, it would regen 100 per second. That's 600 points over the standard 6 seconds or an increase of 600%. Capacity then needs a 50% boost from current numbers. Shield heals need to have regen removed and only have a resist and one-time small heal.
TT needs to have its distribution nerfed. Cap distribution at 50% of capacity. So when a 8K shield facing receives 4K, that facing can't receive any more until TT is activated again. That means one facing can't take more than 12K damage instead of a potential 32K.
Problem is in giving the shield distribution it made TT much more important than ET. I am fine with TT, especially in the post FAWDEM world we live in. But ET needs something equally as beneficial, or maybe it is time to start talking about not having the Teams on shared cool downs. At least ET, since in its current state it is situational, not something that has excessive benefit from routine spamming like TT and possible ST (though I don't use ST that much on my cruisers so I am not sure how much others spam it).