If VATA *was* affected by projectile weapon officers, it would be worth using on torpedo boat specalist builds. Roughly speaking you could increase its fire rate by 100-200% (too lazy for math right now) if it were being fed a steady diet of 5 second cooldown bonuses.
my question is, why did they even make it? Fed players want galaxy fixed, a fed carrier, or the Typhoon in game. But they made this ugly ship. And if they HAD to make this battlecruiser. why not make it the New Orleans class, same size, cannon, and better looking. Face it Cryptic you ship design team sucks. And why should I pay 2500 zen for this thing. Like the awful Regent it is not worth the price.
I got the Fleet version on my Joined Trill eng because I wasn't sure about committing it to all my toons.
Aside from the look (I used the Veteran skin on the thing and turned on my Adapted MACO shields look as well), the fleet version isn't bad tho it still looks like a Tac Vesta on steroids.
I use beams due to the Nukara console and boy, does having it shred ships like no other. So much fun to fly. Just need to find the right set up.
The avenger is just another ugly little ship with some special thing on it that will shortly be on every cruiser. And since they again messed up the weapon hard points for the most unepic display of fire cycles well hf with it
Its no uglier than any other ship that had a elongated primary hull and two nacelles, its just slightly different from the others. So what if the deflector is squarish? it doesnt matter, you dont see it when you are flying it....
This looks arguement is nothing but a straw man arguement, just so you can argue about something.
It takes a console slot, not a weapon slot. So don't compare it to a weapon that requires a slot to be used for damage comparisons. That would be less than useful. Sort of like your post.
I'm not even sure how to read your post. Are those numbers supposed to represent the damage the weapons do on impact, and then the damage the weapons do like, on the way to the target?
your passive aggressive leet attitude is offensive and a bit annoying to say the least.
My best crit value was 55+K, hardly something to sneeze at from a console that acts as a weapon with a reasonable cool down.
I think we have very different definitions of "reasonable cool down".
Generally speaking, if something takes a minute or more to cool down, it better have a REALLY impressive (read: decisive) effect on the battle. Reverse shield polarity is an example of something that has a long but reasonable cooldown. It has a huge effect and can completely and reliably turn the course of a battle. "Expensive" to carry, but worth it.
VATA is not decisive or worth it. It's a gimmick. Quantum torpedo? 50K damage? Great. That will one-shot a lot of cruisers and moderately dent most battleships. If it doesn't hit their shields, anyway. Good thing there's only a dozen more enemy ships just like that one and that critical hits are dumb luck. Tachyon torpedo? I honestly could not see that it made ANY real difference when fired at a boss with shields strong enough to want a shield-buster weapon on. Chroniton torpedo? You, uh... want to slow something down once every two minutes?
Not only is it not decisive when used, it also isn't available often enough to use it as a multi-role backup because using any of its modes precludes all other modes for the same cooldown.
*sigh*
But apparently I'm in a minority here. I don't understand why so many people seem to think this is a reasonable level of utility for a console when several Z-ships have far better consoles, like aceton assimilator or plasmonic leech.
My best crit value was 55+K, hardly something to sneeze at from a console that acts as a weapon with a reasonable cool down.
The question is: wouldn't another universal, passive console in that slot account for more and more reliable damage?
After parsing a few STFs where Avenger pilots were using the VATA, it showed that they were able to do an average 26k of damage per shot (including the quantum and chroniton micro torps) and got to fire it ~3x per STF. So the players that I've parsed were able to get an additional 78k of damage over the course of a whole ISE or CSE on average from that console.
I'd imagine that the passive CrtD or CritH from a Tachyokinetic converter, ZPE conduit, bioneural circuits or a borg module would also be able to boost your existing weapons to do that additional 78k of damage per STF.
Just as a comparison: the plasma dot on the mk x embassy particle converters I use on my Hegh'ta average at ~60k of additional damage per STF and that's just a little gimmick that comes on top of a normal sci console...
The question is: wouldn't another universal, passive console in that slot account for more and more reliable damage?
After parsing a few STFs where Avenger pilots were using the VATA, it showed that they were able to do an average 26k of damage per shot (including the quantum and chroniton micro torps) and got to fire it ~3x per STF. So the players that I've parsed were able to get an additional 78k of damage over the course of a whole ISE or CSE on average from that console.
I'd imagine that the passive CrtD or CritH from a Tachyokinetic converter, ZPE conduit, bioneural circuits or a borg module would also be able to boost your existing weapons to do that additional 78k of damage per STF.
Just as a comparison: the plasma dot on the mk x embassy particle converters I use on my Hegh'ta average at ~60k of additional damage per STF and that's just a little gimmick that comes on top of a normal sci console...
The 26k per shot number works out, best case scenario, to a smidge over 200 dps for the full ISE run (three shots nets you somewhere in the 6-9 minute range, I used the 6 minute number). For a 10k build (which the Avenger is able to significantly outpace mind you, but it's a basis for comparison) that's 2% of your damage output.
Ok, who had under three weeks? Collect the winnings....
If you're alluding to what I think you are, the situation is that Avenger is currently a very good ship that is worth every penny. The issue isn't right now. The issue is "soon", when every other cruiser gets the command array as a free upgrade, thereby devaluing what you get by buying the Avenger.
The 26k per shot number works out, best case scenario, to a smidge over 200 dps for the full ISE run (three shots nets you somewhere in the 6-9 minute range, I used the 6 minute number). For a 10k build (which the Avenger is able to significantly outpace mind you, but it's a basis for comparison) that's 2% of your damage output.
Right.
Worst case would be that you fire the weapon 3x in an STF and your target gets destroyed before your VATA is able to hit it (something everyone using slow projectile weapons can relate to) resulting in 0 dmg.
That's why I was saying that it might be better to just get rid of the VATA and mount one of the numerous universal consoles that'll give the ship a steady, passive damage boost.
If you're alluding to what I think you are, the situation is that Avenger is currently a very good ship that is worth every penny. The issue isn't right now. The issue is "soon", when every other cruiser gets the command array as a free upgrade, thereby devaluing what you get by buying the Avenger.
Comm arrays going out game-wide doesn't devalue the Avenger. It'll still have everything it had prior to S8. The difference now is that people aren't going to be forced into a single ship to play the DPS cruiser role. The Avenger is still superior to the Excel and FACR, but it won't be so ridiculously the better option.
Worst case would be that you fire the weapon 3x in an STF and your target gets destroyed before your VATA is able to hit it (something everyone using slow projectile weapons can relate to) resulting in 0 dmg.
That's why I was saying that it might be better to just get rid of the VATA and mount one of the numerous universal consoles that'll give the ship a steady, passive damage boost.
Doesn't even need to be an offensive console. Losing 2% (realistically it's less given the kinds of numbers I've seen people get out of their Avengers) of damage output is a very reasonable sacrifice to make for say, additional maneuverability or survivability as well.
Vesta's Quantum Field Focus Controller vs Avenger's quantum V.A.T.A.
DMG wise
vesta
255000dmg over 15sec
Avenger
36000dmg
1:0
cd's
vesta
2.5-3min
avenger
2min
1:1
modifiers
vesta
exotic dmg
aux power level
deflector dofs
Phaser amplifiers
Starship Energy Weapons
Starship Energy Weapon Specialization
Starship Particle Generator
Starship Targeting Systems
avenger
wep power level
only chambers for torpedo's
Starship Projectile Weapons
Starship Projectile Weapon Specialization
Starship Targeting Systems
Yes Vesta Console might do more damage but Vesta needs it more because it has less weapon slots then the Vengeance and does not have the weapon Cruiser command.
Vesta's Quantum Field Focus Controller vs Avenger's quantum V.A.T.A.
DMG wise
vesta
255000dmg over 15sec
Avenger
36000dmg
1:0
cd's
vesta
2.5-3min
avenger
2min
1:1
modifiers
vesta
exotic dmg
aux power level
deflector dofs
Phaser amplifiers
Starship Energy Weapons
Starship Energy Weapon Specialization
Starship Particle Generator
Starship Targeting Systems
avenger
wep power level
only chambers for torpedo's
Starship Projectile Weapons
Starship Projectile Weapon Specialization
Starship Targeting Systems
1:0
final
vesta vs avenger 3:1
Vesta - 6 weapons
BC - 8 weapons
Boffs are pretty even, if you are sci-vesta or tac-BC
What about cruiser commands.
I think the final tally would be a little more even than 3:1
PvE Jem'Hadar motto:Participation Ribbonsare life.
actually vesta have 6 and a hangar (4-6 depends on the hangar) that means 10-12 weapons
so you are both wrong cruiser command is a joke something shiny thing that have absolutely no value in pve
you are almost stuck with one aura but hello vesta have 2 consoles more which already give her even more than the cruiser command in the end the final was going to be even 5 or 6 : 1 for the vesta
I've flown escorts almost exclusively since the game released and the Avenger is the only cruiser that I've considered sticking with, aside from the Ambassador, which I like for its looks (what can I say, she's a nicely proportioned ship). But as far as gameplay goes, I fly the Avenger like a slightly slower, but much tougher escort. With the maneuverability command active, I've got it almost up to par with my escorts as far as turning and with that extra gun up front, it definitely does the job along with being almost invincible if you fly it the way an escort is supposed to be flown. Next to the Avenger, my escorts all seem like glass cannons. Even my Fleet Patrol, which has been my go-to ship until now doesn't seem to measure up.
As much as I appreciate my Avenger, I do hope for a return to escorts in the future. My hope is that they add "Tactical Commands" to all escorts like they're planning with the Cruiser Comands for all cruisers.
The argument could be made that flying an Avenger is making me lazy, though. Those speedy, powerful little escorts do tend to keep you on your toes.
Except there are a few differences you aren't considering...the BNW takes up a weapon slot where as the VATA takes up a console...while both are precious I would say the console isn't as precious.
I haven't used a VATA but is its kinetic explosion at the end affected by shields? The BNW is...and I wouldn't exactly call the BNW's turret a chain saw.
Then you have never seen the BNW do its thing. That Anti-Proton turret can be absolutely vicious. Even more so if you have Anti-Proton weapon modifiers on your ship. I have frequently used the BNW to bring shield facing to the opposite face of where I am about to pound my enemy to great success. Also the final blast of the BNW is a bit AoE and is actually rather powerful. A good crit with the BNW can dish out some serious numbers if you are able to bring down enemy shields or debuff their resistances.
However the BNW is NOT a fore weapon. It is a perfect tail weapon that can either be fired in from range as a buddy in your attacks or as a surprise to tailgaters.
As for the Avenger the Fleet version is pretty good but I have trouble imagining what sort of Captain it is meant for exactly... Why? Because if you are an Engineering Captain and want to dish out damage then you should fly an Escort, get all the advantages of the big weapons, turn rate, and Tactical BOFF abilities and use your engineering abilities to keep it alive very effectively.
If you are a Tactical Captain then you want something that can survive a bit better and take full advantage of your Captain skills. The Fleet Avenger is pretty good for this but in a number of ways the versatility, greater toughness, and much higher turn rate (14.5 Vs 9) when in Star Drive section, and better console abilities of the full Tactical Odyssey is in many ways the better bet.
Science Captains really work best in Science Ships, Carriers, and Escorts. They generally do very poorly in Cruisers because they cannot speed their movement up, they do not keep their power levels higher, and they can only make them SLIGHTLY more deadly with the occasional Sensor Scan. So this is obviously not for them either.
My Science Captain is in a Sci Oddy and she does fine with it using Disruptor beams. Keeping her tanky was a challenge but re-arranging BOFF seats and abilities helped. Also updating to MK XII weapons helps.
Comments
R.I.P
Aside from the look (I used the Veteran skin on the thing and turned on my Adapted MACO shields look as well), the fleet version isn't bad tho it still looks like a Tac Vesta on steroids.
I use beams due to the Nukara console and boy, does having it shred ships like no other. So much fun to fly. Just need to find the right set up.
Its no uglier than any other ship that had a elongated primary hull and two nacelles, its just slightly different from the others. So what if the deflector is squarish? it doesnt matter, you dont see it when you are flying it....
This looks arguement is nothing but a straw man arguement, just so you can argue about something.
your passive aggressive leet attitude is offensive and a bit annoying to say the least.
having said that -
The VATA can be a lot of fun. I had the pair circle a cube 2x while hitting it with torpedoes; I backed off wondering when if ever they'd hit.
My best crit value was 55+K, hardly something to sneeze at from a console that acts as a weapon with a reasonable cool down.
I think we have very different definitions of "reasonable cool down".
Generally speaking, if something takes a minute or more to cool down, it better have a REALLY impressive (read: decisive) effect on the battle. Reverse shield polarity is an example of something that has a long but reasonable cooldown. It has a huge effect and can completely and reliably turn the course of a battle. "Expensive" to carry, but worth it.
VATA is not decisive or worth it. It's a gimmick. Quantum torpedo? 50K damage? Great. That will one-shot a lot of cruisers and moderately dent most battleships. If it doesn't hit their shields, anyway. Good thing there's only a dozen more enemy ships just like that one and that critical hits are dumb luck. Tachyon torpedo? I honestly could not see that it made ANY real difference when fired at a boss with shields strong enough to want a shield-buster weapon on. Chroniton torpedo? You, uh... want to slow something down once every two minutes?
Not only is it not decisive when used, it also isn't available often enough to use it as a multi-role backup because using any of its modes precludes all other modes for the same cooldown.
*sigh*
But apparently I'm in a minority here. I don't understand why so many people seem to think this is a reasonable level of utility for a console when several Z-ships have far better consoles, like aceton assimilator or plasmonic leech.
The question is: wouldn't another universal, passive console in that slot account for more and more reliable damage?
After parsing a few STFs where Avenger pilots were using the VATA, it showed that they were able to do an average 26k of damage per shot (including the quantum and chroniton micro torps) and got to fire it ~3x per STF. So the players that I've parsed were able to get an additional 78k of damage over the course of a whole ISE or CSE on average from that console.
I'd imagine that the passive CrtD or CritH from a Tachyokinetic converter, ZPE conduit, bioneural circuits or a borg module would also be able to boost your existing weapons to do that additional 78k of damage per STF.
Just as a comparison: the plasma dot on the mk x embassy particle converters I use on my Hegh'ta average at ~60k of additional damage per STF and that's just a little gimmick that comes on top of a normal sci console...
The 26k per shot number works out, best case scenario, to a smidge over 200 dps for the full ISE run (three shots nets you somewhere in the 6-9 minute range, I used the 6 minute number). For a 10k build (which the Avenger is able to significantly outpace mind you, but it's a basis for comparison) that's 2% of your damage output.
If you're alluding to what I think you are, the situation is that Avenger is currently a very good ship that is worth every penny. The issue isn't right now. The issue is "soon", when every other cruiser gets the command array as a free upgrade, thereby devaluing what you get by buying the Avenger.
Right.
Worst case would be that you fire the weapon 3x in an STF and your target gets destroyed before your VATA is able to hit it (something everyone using slow projectile weapons can relate to) resulting in 0 dmg.
That's why I was saying that it might be better to just get rid of the VATA and mount one of the numerous universal consoles that'll give the ship a steady, passive damage boost.
Comm arrays going out game-wide doesn't devalue the Avenger. It'll still have everything it had prior to S8. The difference now is that people aren't going to be forced into a single ship to play the DPS cruiser role. The Avenger is still superior to the Excel and FACR, but it won't be so ridiculously the better option.
Variety in viable options is a good thing.
Doesn't even need to be an offensive console. Losing 2% (realistically it's less given the kinds of numbers I've seen people get out of their Avengers) of damage output is a very reasonable sacrifice to make for say, additional maneuverability or survivability as well.
DMG wise
vesta
255000dmg over 15sec
Avenger
36000dmg
1:0
cd's
vesta
2.5-3min
avenger
2min
1:1
modifiers
vesta
exotic dmg
aux power level
deflector dofs
Phaser amplifiers
Starship Energy Weapons
Starship Energy Weapon Specialization
Starship Particle Generator
Starship Targeting Systems
avenger
wep power level
only chambers for torpedo's
Starship Projectile Weapons
Starship Projectile Weapon Specialization
Starship Targeting Systems
1:0
final
vesta vs avenger 3:1
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Vesta - 6 weapons
BC - 8 weapons
Boffs are pretty even, if you are sci-vesta or tac-BC
What about cruiser commands.
I think the final tally would be a little more even than 3:1
so you are both wrong cruiser command is a joke something shiny thing that have absolutely no value in pve
you are almost stuck with one aura but hello vesta have 2 consoles more which already give her even more than the cruiser command in the end the final was going to be even 5 or 6 : 1 for the vesta
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
My name is Rage, and I too support a revised Galaxy family.
As much as I appreciate my Avenger, I do hope for a return to escorts in the future. My hope is that they add "Tactical Commands" to all escorts like they're planning with the Cruiser Comands for all cruisers.
The argument could be made that flying an Avenger is making me lazy, though. Those speedy, powerful little escorts do tend to keep you on your toes.
Then you have never seen the BNW do its thing. That Anti-Proton turret can be absolutely vicious. Even more so if you have Anti-Proton weapon modifiers on your ship. I have frequently used the BNW to bring shield facing to the opposite face of where I am about to pound my enemy to great success. Also the final blast of the BNW is a bit AoE and is actually rather powerful. A good crit with the BNW can dish out some serious numbers if you are able to bring down enemy shields or debuff their resistances.
However the BNW is NOT a fore weapon. It is a perfect tail weapon that can either be fired in from range as a buddy in your attacks or as a surprise to tailgaters.
As for the Avenger the Fleet version is pretty good but I have trouble imagining what sort of Captain it is meant for exactly... Why? Because if you are an Engineering Captain and want to dish out damage then you should fly an Escort, get all the advantages of the big weapons, turn rate, and Tactical BOFF abilities and use your engineering abilities to keep it alive very effectively.
If you are a Tactical Captain then you want something that can survive a bit better and take full advantage of your Captain skills. The Fleet Avenger is pretty good for this but in a number of ways the versatility, greater toughness, and much higher turn rate (14.5 Vs 9) when in Star Drive section, and better console abilities of the full Tactical Odyssey is in many ways the better bet.
Science Captains really work best in Science Ships, Carriers, and Escorts. They generally do very poorly in Cruisers because they cannot speed their movement up, they do not keep their power levels higher, and they can only make them SLIGHTLY more deadly with the occasional Sensor Scan. So this is obviously not for them either.