Cracking idea. How do you suggest we achieve this?
Set a specific date, probably post S8 and see how many players the Devs can come up with, hopefully more than 10,
To choose those who will go and face them, have another TD style tournament and the winner and those ranked below them in order i.e 2nd,3rd, 4th place teams e.t.c depending how many players the Devs can come up with.
This gives both losers and the winner a chance to face the devs and makes it fair and takes Fleet tags out of the tournament, with no handbags about who is the best fleet to face them.
Any other suggestions would be good. But above is a simple one.
But importantly this will give the Devs a taste of PVP. I think having a match with and one without cheese will always consolidate the notion that PVP is broken balance
Now found frequenting MWO short term and then Star Citizen long term. Raged Quit PVP long ago
- Gohan (House of Beautiful /Sad Pandas)
doubt a dev vs player would fly, they have jobs, its what puts food on the table and pays the bills for another month. i work then i play, i dont work and work some more
alien obduction. Really sorry i couldn't make it, what was the verdict on the eng rule? yay or nay?
There was no so-called "eng rule," and I think you're aware of that, so please don't bring your personal cause to this thread. The goal of the tournament was to set up random teams, and in order to do so in the most straightforward manner each team was given the same set composition. You don't see successful tournaments geared towards preexisting premade teams instituting heavy restrictions on composition (the reasons for this have been gone over ad nausum), but in this kind of setting it does makes sense. I will say that with engineers now having a place against FAW heavy teams I didn't expect you to still be pushing this.
There was no so-called "eng rule," and I think you're aware of that, so please don't bring your personal cause to this thread.
Uh but there was an eng rule, its right in the op. This is unlike in previous no BS tournaments where you especially have been very adamant about not having such a rule in the first place. Something about not forcing teams (ie SP) to bring an inferior team composition.
tournaments geared towards preexisting premade teams instituting heavy restrictions on composition ....
Was the 1 eng rule not enforced? I have no idea what you are talking about. To rephrase my point. This is the first NO BS event prescribing engs, my question was simply how the people who participated thought it worked? Not sure who is bringing a personal cause to the thread, I'm just curious because i couldn't make it.
And since your obviously no friend of the concept, has your idea about the ideal team composition changed? Do you consider eng + 2x sci + 2x Tac > 3x Sci + 2xTac? I still consider my sci healer to be more valuable then my eng healer, so without a rule for both teams to bring an eng, I wouldn't necessarily drag my engs into teams. SNB beats MW way to often.
Uh but there was an eng rule, its right in the op. This is unlike in previous no BS tournaments where you especially have been very adamant about not having such a rule in the first place. Something about not forcing teams (ie SP) to bring an inferior team composition.
I still consider my sci healer to be more valuable then my eng healer, so without a rule for both teams to bring an eng, I wouldn't necessarily drag my engs into teams. SNB beats MW way to often.
How about you answer your own question as well?
You wouldn't bring an Eng yourself, but apparently you are in favor of a rule forcing people to bring Engineers?
Which is it?
Or are you just against it when other people spend the time and effort to put together a large tournament and they happen to have a rule that doesn't force teams to bring one Eng, even though you recognize there are balance issues with Eng vs. Sci yourself?
You wouldn't bring an Eng yourself, but apparently you are in favor of a rule forcing people to bring Engineers?
Which is it?
Or are you just against it when other people spend the time and effort to put together a large tournament and they happen to have a rule that doesn't force teams to bring one Eng, even though you recognize there are balance issues with Eng vs. Sci yourself?
and another question evading post starting from a false assumption. I signed up with my eng, not "wouldn't bring" but "signed up". l2read
It's because i consider my sci to be superior i m in favor of having a max of 2 per class rule so that people can keep playing all classes.
I know you like to channel the spirit of Jorf, but my questions were a direct response to him, so what was your point again?
There was a new rule, and all i wanted to know is how people liked it, how it played out? No clue what made you and your spiritus rector throw the trolls up on the fences about the question. Its simple enough.
Due to the amount of no shows (damn daylight saving days) forcing emergency replacements on the spot for the tournament, I had to make the decision of not enforcing that particular rule to maintain participant numbers.
If it would have been enforced, we wouldn't have had enough teams to make the tournament.
I would say, and most participants would agree, it was the right decision for that particular situation.
Priority was to have a tournament which made premades irrelevant and gave every participant (especially those from non PvP fleets) an equal chance to win. I believe strongly that the aim was achieved.
Due to the amount of no shows (damn daylight saving days) forcing emergency replacements on the spot for the tournament, I had to make the decision of not enforcing that particular rule to maintain participant numbers.
If it would have been enforced, we wouldn't have had enough teams to make the tournament.
I would say, and most participants would agree, it was the right decision for that particular situation.
Priority was to have a tournament which made premades irrelevant and gave every participant (especially those from non PvP fleets) an equal chance to win. I believe strongly that the aim was achieved.
Thanks for actually answering my question naz. Pitty that there weren't enough engs. It seems that years of neglect finally brought them close to extinction. Really sad to hear that. Just out of curiosity roughly how many teams did fly, and how many engs where there?
I'm glad everyone had fun and from the sounds of it the event was a success.
I brought an engineer, a very well equipped and repped up one at that. I admit, my Fleet Ambassador, which acted mostly as a healer was...not as min/maxxed as I would have preferred it to be (like I didn't exactly have top level consoles for healing, my BOFF slots were a tad off, didn't have the DOFFs I thought I had, etc), but even so, I supported my team and still put out a fairly respectable amount of damage.
Point being that I was a useful aspect of the team, especially with all the high pressure damage output we've gotten recently. So 'engy rule' or not, I'd certainly say that encouraging people to sign up with those was a VERY good idea on Naz's part, and seems to have gone over well as well.
If I ever manage to get around to making my own tourny, I WILL include an 'eng rule' of sorts, because I DO think now that engineers have become more useful again with the high pressure meta we've shifted to recently.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
If I ever manage to get around to making my own tourny, I WILL include an 'eng rule' of sorts, because I DO think now that engineers have become more useful again with the high pressure meta we've shifted to recently.
The point of the "eng rule" in the past was to force people to bring engineers because they were inferior and otherwise would not be used by teams. I'm not sure I understand forcing teams to bring them because of them being useful. It's like saying "The leech console is pretty useful, so let's make sure people bring two on a team." Doesn't make sense at all.
Unless your talking about another pug tournament with random teams. Then having a set team composition which involves engineers helps to get people included who might otherwise not participate, and keeps the teams as equal as possible. In a tournament with premades you aren't looking to make everyone equal, you're looking to let teams show their unique diversity and strategy, while barring anything downright exploitative.
Another way of putting it is that if you were to host a tournament today with an "eng rule", every single team would bring two sci, two tac, and one eng. Without an eng rule, you'd still have one or two teams with the two sci, two tac, one eng composition -- it's entirely possible SP would bring this in the current meta. You'd also have teams with three sci and two tacs, as well as three tacs and two sci. Diversity is good, yes?
The issue wasn't that there wasn't enough engis.... plenty of people signed up with there engis as a way to be able to play them at a high level at last. (I considered bringing my own, with the limited number of spots I thought I would let people more in love with there engis a chance at them first lol) Frankly in the current meta they are very useful again... honestly Havem your sci healer is NOT more valuable then an engi when facing a high pressure faw team anymore. At least thats my view, and I think its shared by a few people.
As far as one engi per team being a rule... I don't think its fair to call it a rule... as the Tournament was using a Tyler Durden Rule set.
When we have TD matches and balance teams... we don't call that "Rules"... when we for instance split even sci players between teams.
The idea of TD... is to create teams that are as balanced as possible. When we run on match with 10 guys... its easier to look at more factors then just X number of this class or that class... when someone like Naz decides he is going to be kind enough to try an host 65!! folks all playing at the same time...
Well the quickest way to get good balanced matches was to sign up X number of each class... and then split the teams up using that formula.
Honestly building the teams was fast... and in the end I think it speaks to the real quality of the pvp in STO lately when most people looked back on the matches and where able to say. Darn almost every match was close. Many got called on time... when the final two teams came together for there match they ended up being very closely matched. I would say that match was as close as almost any of the well balanced TD matched that have happened the last couple months.
Anyway just wanted to add my 2 cents. I think when we start talking rules we start getting on each other... I don't think there was an Engi "Rule". Making sure there was a place for anyone wishing to play engi was simple inclusion. TD is all about inclusion, everyone come together drop your fleet tags... grab the new guys. Fight, kill, die, and love each other for it. lol
Honestly building the teams was fast... and in the end I think it speaks to the real quality of the pvp in STO lately when most people looked back on the matches and where able to say. Darn almost every match was close. Many got called on time... when the final two teams came together for there match they ended up being very closely matched. I would say that match was as close as almost any of the well balanced TD matched that have happened the last couple months.
Yeah, pretty much this. I admit, the first match I was in, in the tourny was kind of a stomp on the other team. We won 15-1. Second match, we lost 6-9 (I think). But we had to stop from time. Heck, we were five minutes over time, but still would've lost. Even so, it was a LONG, hard fight the entire time, even losing.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
I do think that the balanced-ness of TD-style matches does reflect somewhat on how things are actually fairly OK as long as we don't factor in min-maxed team-based complement-build setups.
Ours was a great match. Though we lost fair and square, I was struggling somewhat with the eject-warp plasma and that doff that affects movement on it. TRIBBLE bells!
It turned out to be very effective in forcing our team to waste its HE, and greatly reduced my ability to be where I was needed in my old D'Kora.... Actually now that I think about it, I closely resembled Don quixote most of the time.
Just as I was about to unload my fiery vengeance on all-who-dare-vex-me, I found myself slapped in the face, dragged screaming back into the maw only to be mauled all over again. I was finished, I tell ya! I felt violated.
But it was a blast. Will gladly do this sort of tournament again if any will have me!
Comments
Set a specific date, probably post S8 and see how many players the Devs can come up with, hopefully more than 10,
To choose those who will go and face them, have another TD style tournament and the winner and those ranked below them in order i.e 2nd,3rd, 4th place teams e.t.c depending how many players the Devs can come up with.
This gives both losers and the winner a chance to face the devs and makes it fair and takes Fleet tags out of the tournament, with no handbags about who is the best fleet to face them.
Any other suggestions would be good. But above is a simple one.
But importantly this will give the Devs a taste of PVP. I think having a match with and one without cheese will always consolidate the notion that PVP is broken balance
- Gohan (House of Beautiful /Sad Pandas)
Chillax. No Ego. No Drama.
Like my alien? Watch THE VIDEO
Need custom graphics for you or your fleet? Click HERE
There was no so-called "eng rule," and I think you're aware of that, so please don't bring your personal cause to this thread. The goal of the tournament was to set up random teams, and in order to do so in the most straightforward manner each team was given the same set composition. You don't see successful tournaments geared towards preexisting premade teams instituting heavy restrictions on composition (the reasons for this have been gone over ad nausum), but in this kind of setting it does makes sense. I will say that with engineers now having a place against FAW heavy teams I didn't expect you to still be pushing this.
So which one is Was the 1 eng rule not enforced? I have no idea what you are talking about. To rephrase my point. This is the first NO BS event prescribing engs, my question was simply how the people who participated thought it worked? Not sure who is bringing a personal cause to the thread, I'm just curious because i couldn't make it.
And since your obviously no friend of the concept, has your idea about the ideal team composition changed? Do you consider eng + 2x sci + 2x Tac > 3x Sci + 2xTac? I still consider my sci healer to be more valuable then my eng healer, so without a rule for both teams to bring an eng, I wouldn't necessarily drag my engs into teams. SNB beats MW way to often.
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
How about you answer your own question as well?
You wouldn't bring an Eng yourself, but apparently you are in favor of a rule forcing people to bring Engineers?
Which is it?
Or are you just against it when other people spend the time and effort to put together a large tournament and they happen to have a rule that doesn't force teams to bring one Eng, even though you recognize there are balance issues with Eng vs. Sci yourself?
and another question evading post starting from a false assumption. I signed up with my eng, not "wouldn't bring" but "signed up". l2read
It's because i consider my sci to be superior i m in favor of having a max of 2 per class rule so that people can keep playing all classes.
I know you like to channel the spirit of Jorf, but my questions were a direct response to him, so what was your point again?
There was a new rule, and all i wanted to know is how people liked it, how it played out? No clue what made you and your spiritus rector throw the trolls up on the fences about the question. Its simple enough.
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
If it would have been enforced, we wouldn't have had enough teams to make the tournament.
I would say, and most participants would agree, it was the right decision for that particular situation.
Priority was to have a tournament which made premades irrelevant and gave every participant (especially those from non PvP fleets) an equal chance to win. I believe strongly that the aim was achieved.
Thanks for actually answering my question naz. Pitty that there weren't enough engs. It seems that years of neglect finally brought them close to extinction. Really sad to hear that. Just out of curiosity roughly how many teams did fly, and how many engs where there?
I'm glad everyone had fun and from the sounds of it the event was a success.
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
Point being that I was a useful aspect of the team, especially with all the high pressure damage output we've gotten recently. So 'engy rule' or not, I'd certainly say that encouraging people to sign up with those was a VERY good idea on Naz's part, and seems to have gone over well as well.
If I ever manage to get around to making my own tourny, I WILL include an 'eng rule' of sorts, because I DO think now that engineers have become more useful again with the high pressure meta we've shifted to recently.
The point of the "eng rule" in the past was to force people to bring engineers because they were inferior and otherwise would not be used by teams. I'm not sure I understand forcing teams to bring them because of them being useful. It's like saying "The leech console is pretty useful, so let's make sure people bring two on a team." Doesn't make sense at all.
Unless your talking about another pug tournament with random teams. Then having a set team composition which involves engineers helps to get people included who might otherwise not participate, and keeps the teams as equal as possible. In a tournament with premades you aren't looking to make everyone equal, you're looking to let teams show their unique diversity and strategy, while barring anything downright exploitative.
Another way of putting it is that if you were to host a tournament today with an "eng rule", every single team would bring two sci, two tac, and one eng. Without an eng rule, you'd still have one or two teams with the two sci, two tac, one eng composition -- it's entirely possible SP would bring this in the current meta. You'd also have teams with three sci and two tacs, as well as three tacs and two sci. Diversity is good, yes?
As far as one engi per team being a rule... I don't think its fair to call it a rule... as the Tournament was using a Tyler Durden Rule set.
When we have TD matches and balance teams... we don't call that "Rules"... when we for instance split even sci players between teams.
The idea of TD... is to create teams that are as balanced as possible. When we run on match with 10 guys... its easier to look at more factors then just X number of this class or that class... when someone like Naz decides he is going to be kind enough to try an host 65!! folks all playing at the same time...
Well the quickest way to get good balanced matches was to sign up X number of each class... and then split the teams up using that formula.
Honestly building the teams was fast... and in the end I think it speaks to the real quality of the pvp in STO lately when most people looked back on the matches and where able to say. Darn almost every match was close. Many got called on time... when the final two teams came together for there match they ended up being very closely matched. I would say that match was as close as almost any of the well balanced TD matched that have happened the last couple months.
Anyway just wanted to add my 2 cents. I think when we start talking rules we start getting on each other... I don't think there was an Engi "Rule". Making sure there was a place for anyone wishing to play engi was simple inclusion. TD is all about inclusion, everyone come together drop your fleet tags... grab the new guys. Fight, kill, die, and love each other for it. lol
Yeah, pretty much this. I admit, the first match I was in, in the tourny was kind of a stomp on the other team. We won 15-1. Second match, we lost 6-9 (I think). But we had to stop from time. Heck, we were five minutes over time, but still would've lost. Even so, it was a LONG, hard fight the entire time, even losing.
It turned out to be very effective in forcing our team to waste its HE, and greatly reduced my ability to be where I was needed in my old D'Kora.... Actually now that I think about it, I closely resembled Don quixote most of the time.
Just as I was about to unload my fiery vengeance on all-who-dare-vex-me, I found myself slapped in the face, dragged screaming back into the maw only to be mauled all over again. I was finished, I tell ya! I felt violated.
But it was a blast. Will gladly do this sort of tournament again if any will have me!