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Hey devs, a alternative 2409 Starfleet Design possible?
yreodred
Member Posts: 3,527 Arc User
Hello!
I know devs won't react to this thread, just by reading my name but anyway.
I would like to propose a alternative 2409 Starfleet style, that looks different than the egg shaped saucer and long nacelles, most of Cryptics Starfleet creations have. (Odyssey, Avenger, Regent)
This is not meant as a substitution to the already existing ship models, but a alternative to it.
I don't have much graphic material on my own, so i will use other sources to show what i mean.
Here's a alternative Odyssey (just a bad concept, but you get the point) that shows different ratio and a different shaped saucer.
Yes, some will say "hey it looks like a Galaxy Class"... i know.
Constitution - Ambassador - Galaxy design line should be included in STOs 2409 style too, not just the Excelsior and Sovereign design, in my opinion.
Introducing different shaped saucers and other ship parts would give us players much more space to experiment and Cryptic could sell them via the C-Store.
So i think it would be a nice idea to give us some alternatives for our ships.
Especially since most of cryptics starfleet designs have the tendency to be too much filled with edges and other "cool" things. I think a different design aproach (elegant and more fluid shapes) could be a welcome change.
I know devs won't react to this thread, just by reading my name but anyway.
I would like to propose a alternative 2409 Starfleet style, that looks different than the egg shaped saucer and long nacelles, most of Cryptics Starfleet creations have. (Odyssey, Avenger, Regent)
This is not meant as a substitution to the already existing ship models, but a alternative to it.
I don't have much graphic material on my own, so i will use other sources to show what i mean.
Here's a alternative Odyssey (just a bad concept, but you get the point) that shows different ratio and a different shaped saucer.
Yes, some will say "hey it looks like a Galaxy Class"... i know.
Constitution - Ambassador - Galaxy design line should be included in STOs 2409 style too, not just the Excelsior and Sovereign design, in my opinion.
Introducing different shaped saucers and other ship parts would give us players much more space to experiment and Cryptic could sell them via the C-Store.
So i think it would be a nice idea to give us some alternatives for our ships.
Especially since most of cryptics starfleet designs have the tendency to be too much filled with edges and other "cool" things. I think a different design aproach (elegant and more fluid shapes) could be a welcome change.
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
A tale of two Picards
https://youtu.be/d-f3bscZa0E?t=105(also applies to Star Trek in general)
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Comments
On topic though, I too would like to see more things that are not super pointy sovereign knockoffs. :rolleyes:
I agree it does look really good.
What i miss are just some more options, like the Heavy Cruiser has for example.
Different shaped saucers, different nacelles and so on. Sadly Cryptics devs seem to be focussed on just releasing more and more ships without giving us some options for those we already have.
Personally i find this case pretty irritating, since the newest ships got almost no alternative ship parts. (not to speak of KDF and ROM ships)
For a alternative 2409 Starfleet style, i was thinking about a saucer style like this:
I think the alternative Starfleet style could be summed up with this picture:
Wide saucer, short but different looking nacelles. The ships center of mass being somewhere between saucer and engineering hull. The ships general shape would suggest something like a "push forward" mood.
Additionally the wide saucer makes the ship look different in style than Cryptics favoured egg shape, which i don't like at all.
Such a alternative design would be quite a contrast to the Engineering hull heavy Odyssey, with its egg shaped saucer and streched nacelles. This ships shape just looks bulky and streched to the rear, which makes it look rather imbalanced and fragile.
(huge, oversized nacelles conneded to the hull by slim and fragile pylons...)
I think the Venture GCS style could be a good basis for a alternative 2409 Starfleet style.
(minus its strange looking engineering hull)
But there is one thing i would realy like to ask cryptics ship designers:
Please don't exaggerate everything so much. A certain design idea, no matter how good it is, shouldn't be carried to extremes.
For example the Venture saucer, it doesn't need to be THAT flat. Another example is the Avengers bulky look. I am not against it looking bulky, but the responsible designer made too many elements of that ship look bulky, that's why it looks so cartoonish IMHO.
When designing a Starfleet ship: sometimes, less is more!
When making a ship look fast, just make the general siluette look fast, make the rest look elegant and fluid, don't exaggerate the fast look to the extreme, nor add edges or spikes when not absolutely needed.
Especially in a MMO, i think Starfleet ship designs should reflect the factions philosophy, and not look like a Battlestar, no matter how "cool" the designer may find those designs.
I know that's a fine line and everyone has got another taste. Thats why i would prefer Cryptics designers to make much more optional ship parts for all ships in STO (FED, KDF, ROM).
EDIT:
In my opinion, not every ship part has to be filled with time-consuming details and other knick-knacks, for me the geral shape of a ship and ship parts are much more important to be honest.
So i'd rather see more less detailled ship parts instead of getting one singele highly detailled ship which shapes i dislike.
I guess you must have missed the 2409 Venture-class skin for the Galaxy and Galaxy-X.
I will say though that I do want Venture-class parts made available for the Nebula and Cheyenne classes too as they are both Galaxy-class derived.
That would be nice, but it would only be done by half.
As i said, the Avenger, Odyssey and other new Starfleet ships should get a additional and different optional style.
Most new released Starfleet ships get no additional ship parts, Romulan and KDF ships too.
I think Cryptic Could sell special ship parts packs containing some sets of Saucers, Nacelles, Pylons and so on. Those ship part packs could be sold as FED Cruiser set, FED Escort set, etc.
I know some ships couldn't use certain parts (like the Star Crusiers, for example) but most of them shouldn't have any problems.
Especially since Starfleet ships are build of distinct components, like engineering Hull, pylons, saucer and nacelles, i think it could be possible to create some generic ship parts.
Even if some ships could only use some more pylons or Nacelles, while other ships like the Odyssey could use all additional parts, we would have a huge amount of possible combinations availlable.
Plus Cryptic would make a lot of cash.
To be honest i am pretty disappointed Cryptic doesn't sell more additional ship parts anymore.
As i already said, i would rather see more different looking ship parts added then just one that is highly detailled. Because, let's be honest no one zooms in all the time to admire every little window on a ship.
Now, that's not to say that Starfleet shouldn't be designing new ships. But I'm actually glad that the new ships are usually a specific model (well, most of the time. Some of the models aren't my style).
Examples:
- When a typical person looks at an Odyssey, he can instantly recognize that as an Odyssey.
- When a typical person looks at a Tactical escort using all Defiant pieces, it's instantly recognizable as a Defiant. -
- When you look at a Tactical escort with the Defiant nacelles, Valiant hull, Sau Paulo nose, and Gallant pods? That's just a freak of engineering.
Point is, for every person like you that wants more options on the ship, there's people like me that love seeing canon ships.
Now, that being said, I'm all for giving players the freedom to play how they want. If you want to make a freak of engineering and give it an NX designation, by all means go ahead. You can see in my sig that I want more options myself, so I do understand.
One of the few thing i really like about STO is its customization.
Maybe because i dislike Cryptics designs most of the time, but i also like diversity.
So building a good looking ship can be quite entertaining, at least for me.
I think everyone should decide for himself how his/her ship should look like, especially since Cryptic (was) set a high value on customization.
Ships would still be reckognizeable, no matter how much you kitbash them. The availlable parts (and those i proposed) wouldn't make ships unrecognizable. A Defiant would still be recognized as a defiant just as well the Odyssey.
Just by adding some more Nacelle alternatives or a different looking Saucers a ship would still be reckognizeable.
Look at the Heavy Cruiser for example, there are various different styles for it, but everyone can easily identify one when seen.
Maybe a short adjustment period would be needed and your mentioned "typical person" wouldn't be confused at all anymore. Just look at the various mirror ship in the game for example.
Personally i really diskile Cryptics 2409 style. It sums up everything i don't like about fan made Starfleet ship designs. I think cryptic should give us at lease some alternatives.
It is dissapointing to have a ship i like spoiled by one or two irritations, E.g the Imperial Nacelles join to the pylon too far forward for me
The Odyssey Class has nacelles that look a bit like they have melted ( looks like the fixed them when making the regent, but forgot to retrofit the Odyssey)
Or the Avenger, would look fine to me EXCEPT the pylons start too far forward on the engineering hull and the neck is too narrow to make the split neck look good , giving it a very squashed look, like a slightly overweight child that will eventually grow into their size, only this ship never grew up
But now to be fair and play devils advocate for the Developers, in this case two items
As i understand it the way in which ship parts are assembled together is very limiting on some designs, often causing clipping and frankenstiens ships which mesh in weird places, things which the devs may have intentionally prevented, and were not just talking bad looking aesthetically, but also floating details which aren't properly connected
( though at this point i also remember that the Regent skin is designed intentionally to have details that can only ever be seen by kitbashing it , showing a capacity for the devs to do the task)
( back to asking )BUT there are many things that perhaps could be done, Pylon placement, We see with the avenger an option to change the pylon angle, why not its placement on the hull to fix the ships squashed look?
Also we have the more easy to deal with Cost of artist time, well I for one would be willing to buy any additional skins at a reasonable price, we have interior bridges to buy, and pre fleet ships we did have a set of Tier 5 skins to buy , so more of the same would be much appreciated, even if these are only minor tweaks like the Celestials nacelles being round instead of flat, or its pylon angle
To sum it up, Personalising our ships Feels very satisfying
( I fly a Soverign/Imperial/Regent/Majestic Hybrid The result being a nice Refitted Soverign look, with a much up armoured Saucer-post Nemisis improvement- and Improved Nacelles- obvious upgrades to the warp coils, with the majestic Neck as it better smothes the saucer with the soverign hull)
http://chaos-sandwhich.deviantart.com/art/Sto-Ship-3-407375155
http://chaos-sandwhich.deviantart.com/art/Sto-Ship-2-407375017
the result being a ship which keeps the overall shape and feel of the base ship, But one that is mostly mine alone ( i did see another player with the same ship parts once, had a laugh over it)
I would love to continue making custom designs, and i would be sadened to not have the option in future
I just want to show that you one make even more (more or less) good looking ships with the availlable Assault cruiser parts.
Even if Cryptic maybe would disapprove, because:
Starfleet ship: good looking = not intended
Lol
Some examples:
I used to manage to include the ugly Imperial Engineering hull into a not so bad looking general ship shape. Althrough Cryptics designers tried everything possible to prevent that by making it as ugly as possible IMO.
This one consists of imperial nacelles, majestic saucer and majestic engineering hull and Noble pylons.
The thing that's annoying me is that Cryptics designers tend to make holes in certain parts of a ship, especially the pylons. In every combination those holes and spikes are just killing every try to create a fluid and elegant ship design.
I wish they would have just added a additional version of those pylons WITHOUT holes and spikes, just some plain and simple pylons, nothing more.
Little details like this (spikes, holes, cuttings and so on) are just annoying and ruin the fun of creating nice looking ships for me. Don't get me wrong some alien ships are alright to have Spikes and edges and so on, but starfleet ships look just terrible. And that's what Cryptics designers don't see or don't want to see. They obviously seem to thing that everything has to look as "cool" as possible.
While "cool" seems to mean as spiky, edgy and misshaped as possible in their eyes.
Whis is sad IMO, because the opportunity to create a future Starfleet style has been wasted like this by ppl not getting the philosophy behind the matter.
As i already said Cryptics designers are just exaggerate with adding little details instead of focussing on the general shape. I'd rather see more different shaped ship parts availlable, instead of just small changes in detail that look all just as bad as the other.
An example, For me the Odysseys proportions are totally exaggerated and not really a balanced design. Nacelles+Engineering hull are way too big, while the saucer is too tiny.
This make the ship look too heavy on the rear side. What a backstep to the 24th century TNG ship designs. I'm not saying they should turn the Odyssey or other new designs into GCS copies, but they shouldn't have make them Excelsior copies either.
Original:
Better (IMO):
These are just slight differences, but the dimensions on the lower picture are much better and make the ship look much more balanced and less like a exaggerated cartoon.
The point of a Starfleet design is to make it look somehow consevative (no exaggerations), balanced and make it look interesting at the same time.
When in doubt, Cryptics devs should orientate on Andrew Probert designs, at least he understands Star Trek IMO.
Just a thought on later Star Trek ship designs:
I think a similar thing applies to Cryptic, sadly.
Most new designs are just unimaginitve, unbalanced and simply plain ugly.
Maybe something new actually looks like a blow-dryer or like Car-Keys, who cares if the new design looks elegant and consistent to the faction it belongs.
But most of Cryptics designs just look like some generic Sci Fi designs, completely unrelated to Star Trek.
Ships could get much more fluid ship parts which would result in much more general fluid ship shapes .
Just an example:
(a HUGE thanks to the original artist.)
As you see even the bulky Excelsior would get a fluid general shape, while still being clearly recognizable as Excelsior Class.
I really wish Cryptics devs would make something like that for some ships in STO.
...because Cryptics designs look so much better? :rolleyes:
>_>
<_<
>_>
<_<
............Yes.
That's not JJ, though. It's a fan design, and to my eye looks much more like traditional designs than the wierdly proportioned JJ ships. A lot of the so-called "JJ" versions of ships on deviantart would look right at home in 2409, I think, like:
The Ambassador Class
The Nebula Class
In fact i have never seen such a big range of ugly and hideous Starfleet designs as Cryptics devs have made for STO.
Nice ships indeed.
What i like about them (and JJ styled ones) is they are much more fluid and elegant looking (proportions aside). Very much in contrast to the angular style Cryptics designers seem to prefer.
The Nebula looks cool, but that Ambassador looks downright fugly.
Oh please. The Venture class is (mostly) very pretty. The issue Cryptic has is very ugly deflector dishes.
LINK
LINK
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LINK
Thanks to the original Artists
I really wish these people would work for Cryptic.
Here's my try.
http://i1100.photobucket.com/albums/g420/Yreodred/Star%20Trek%20Online/UnnamedStarfleet.jpg
I would just like to see some other approach than cryptics rather unispired and too industrial looking ships. I even like the JJ enterprise much more than any of Cryptics designs. (at least that ship has character)
All that is (of course) just my opinion, all i want is a choice and more variety instead of getting just one ship style (like Odyssey or Avenger, let's not forget KDF and ROM ships)
With the Ship taylor, Cryptic gave us a great tool but lately (several years) we only get new ships, but no new ship parts (and styles) for our already existing ships.
You seriously want to argue about taste?:rolleyes:
Sure the Venture looks OK, but that's just one design.
If i look at the Majestic, Noble or the Avenger or Odyssey i think otherwise.
As i said above, Cryptic should at least provide us with some alternatives.
Heck i would even like to see some more retro looking ship styles.
Horizontally-oriented oval saucers look SO horrible, no ship should use those anymore. Chevron-shaped Saucers are elegant, give a sense of speed and when you look at the ship from above, they oftentimes resemble the Federation's iconic chevron symbol we see in combadges.
I honestly don't get why people love the looks of the Galaxy-class so much. It's super clunky, the lines don't flow well, it's riddled with shapes that don't mesh together. The only nice part about the ship is that absolutely mind-blowing bridge of hers that we all love.
Blame JJTrek for whatever you guys want, but the JJ Connie was beautiful, simple, elegant, and worthy of being called the Flagship of the Federation. That ship is awe-inducing, and all these DeviantArt artists refitting old ships with the JJ style are making ugly as sin ships (like the Excelsior, the only ship uglier than the Excelsior is the Nebula) into something eye-pleasing. More elegance to Federation ships, please.
What i want is to have some alternatives, Cryptic just can't expect that everyone likes their egg shaped saucers (which are mostly way to small, even on the odyssey) and general ship style.
About the Odyssey, i just find its proportions bad. Just look a few pages back and you see what i mean. The rear part of the ship is way to streched, while the front looks to compressed. the ship looks like it would fall over, it's just not a very balanced ship design.
Surely some views are gorgeous, but the side view is just terrible.
(Excelsior proportions in the worst way.)
At least they should have included a alternative set of forward facing pylons IMO.
I fully agree with you.
JJ styled ships look gracious.
When i saw the JJ enterprise at first, i thought i was ugly but with some time it really found a place in my heart. I really wish Cryptic could make some ship parts that look more like JJ style. I would prefer that style over Cryptcs egg shaped saucers and pseudo-fast-look everyday.
Elegance is what i miss at Cryptics ship style the most. As i said there are some angles their ship look good but mostly the general proportions look horrible.
For me its a art to create a good looking and balanced ship design, but Cryptics designers just don't have the right hand to create nice looking Starfleet ships IMO.
i really like that JJ style Excelsior !
Yeah, i like it too very much.
If that ship model would be availlable in STO, the Excelsior would climb up from being the most hideous to my most favourite ships in Star Trek (in my personal all time favourite list
The funny thing about it, its just some small changes with some great impact.
The person creating this ship is really an gifted artist. Cryptic should employ people like this right now!
Nice to see some positive feedback for a change.
I would like options for more circular saucers
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Personally i don't care if a design is "phallic" or not, just look at the Intrepid or most KDF battlecruisers
I think a modern looking Starfleet ship design shouldn't loose all connections to classic designs IMO. Instead of making them more and more military looking (armor plates and stuff like that), Starfleet ships should look more fluid, almost biological in order to make them look futuristic IMO.
That's what Cryptics designs are missing, i think most of Cryptics designers haven't really understood that Star Trek ships are characters on their own. For me their designs just look like some soulless Sci fi design with no concept or beauty in mind.
Starfleet ships are characters on their own, not flying machine guns IMO.
But the old designs really had a feel to them, as you said. The new ones just look like generic military vehicles, basically. Since I like and can adapt to most Trek time periods I really like the TOS designs and I was surprised how good the intended NX-Class refit looked that was planned for the fifth season of that awful show. It really worked for me and it looked like it would spawn the TOS Starfleet designs, although I didn't like the NX to begin with.
For the new STFs I will using MU escorts for my chars because I cannot stand to fly anything that's bigger than a frigate in a planetary atmosphere. It almost phsyically hurts me to use my Nebula or Galaxy in those
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It's a real shame that Cryptics designers prefer a more military/industrial looking style.
So instead of this beauty:
(all credits to the original artist)
We get scrap like that:
I often find myself wondering if they create ugly Starfleet ships on purpose. Because to be honest i have never seen such a big amount of ugly Starfleet designs in one single game...
If you ask me, the above ship looks much more futuristic and much more appropriate to a game set in the future than the lower ship. Not only that, it looks much more like a Federation ship, but that's just my opinion. At least they should give us the option to use some different (and better) looking style.
This happens when two companies get hold of two pieces of an IP.