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Just when beams are now good...
khayuung
Member Posts: 1,876 Arc User
...people whinge about them. As expected of the internet.
Now I can't wait to see the tears shed when there's a Federation Flight-Deck Dreadnought. :P
Now I can't wait to see the tears shed when there's a Federation Flight-Deck Dreadnought. :P
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The Avenger is a very powerful ship. And a2b build + Marion are crazy.
But its really grating to have your so-called "unperforming" build for 1 year suddenly becoming flavor of the month, and people are now asking for nerfs! And to think I bought Marion way back when because I wanted to annul the drain from my Lance and BFAWs...
Are they going to whinge about my Aceton Beam 3 doff next?
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Marion in a proper a2b build allow you to have no weapon drain half the time. Not to mention very high power level, and CD reduced by half.
If it's not OP, I wonder what is.
Maybe beams are underperforming without Marion. And they need some balance. But having an op build to compensate is dumb, and not the good way to balance a game.
Then nerf Aux2Batt, DEM with Marion is balanced by only 8 seconds on Marion and the long cooldown of DEM, that which reduces the cooldown breaks the balance.
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I must also agree. A2B is the glitch that makes Marion plus DEM work so well. My suggestion would be to lower the allowed Technicians to only one or two.
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All you need is 2 purples to bring it down to global. If they nerf aux2bat, just run 2x dem. Imo nerfing a2b won't work, it's like field generators, they wish they never put it in the game, but there's nothing fair about it that they can do now without pissing a lot of people off.
Avenger isn't that good btw, once other ships have cruiser commands, it will be outclassed.
I for one am waiting and hoping that the new cores that will be coming out will have the same effect as Marion but for all subsystems, pair Marion, cruiser commands, and the new core (especially if it also has amp) and you will lol through everything. Imo the only thing that could make it better would be to slap some cruiser commands on the Scimitar, more dps pl0x.
They nerfed field generators and the game is still standing. Running two DEM isn't nearly as game breaking as running a2b x two...
Solid build though, but seriously, I need to emphasise how incredibly stupid it looks.
Kirk's Protege.
Marion doesn't have any penalty to using it.
I have an eng cruiser that has been tearing things up for a while, beams have been fine for a while, people just don't get how to use them. With Marion and the new weapons command on cruisers the ease of use is definitely getting there though.
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have to agree here. The powerdrain diminishing ability the engi captain has is kind of offset by this doff.
Now all the other classes have it, and it is even with a longer uptime than the one the engi provides.
maybe nadion inversion could be changed to have shorter runtime and shorter cooldown. something like 15 sec runtime, 90 seconds cooldown.
anyway, i see the problem also in this very powerfull doff.
i also think that nobody should be able to slot more than 1 doff of the same kind and rarity.
look at it as some sort of diminishing return on doff powers past the first one slotted.
1 very rare, 1 blue, 1 green, 1 common at max of the same kind only.
Don't nerf the aux2battery ability. Most of us rely on that, but don't have 50 mil laying around to spend on a single doff. If anything, the doff is overpowered. It blatantly disregards game mechanics and changes the entire dynamics of the game. We really do need to get away from these red matter capacitor/plasmonic leech/marion doff "mandatory" things we need to put on our ships that make specing out our boats brainless and less flexible.
I'm not suggesting a nerf to the Aux2Batt ability, the related doff is the problem and THAT needs sorting out, the problem with that is that if you nerf the doff the ability becomes entirely useless again.
These things aren't "mandatory" at all, they are very useful, very powerful even but to say they are mandatory is down right silly, ask a lot of cruiser pilots and they will say an Aux2Batt build is mandatory, said people are very, very wrong, I can run a Sovi on only common mk X gear with no doffs at all and still be very useful in endgame pve.
The problem with DEM plus Marion, which alone is balanced, is Aux2Batt reducing the cooldown on it, as such THAT should be fixed.
And firing an incessant stream of M&Ms a second looks better somehow?
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Playable Typhoon or Jupiter. :P
I hate to say it, but Aux2Bat builds is the only way I can play the Scimitar, else it feels underpowered. However, I also feel Aux2Bat builds also greatly contributed to power creep in the game. Cryptic has to really go back and rethink things.
Like when a DEM is already influenced through a doff based cooldown reduction it can't proc on Marion also or the other way around...
LoL, seriously? Try putting weapons in all 8 slots.
And launch the drones.
Like about a 1/4th or so of the drain resist it has now, but make it last at least 15 seconds.
One doesn't actually need marion to get the same damage, however. Just over cap your weapons power and you never drop below 125 power.
If over capping is a feature then make it a feature. If it's not a feature then fix it. There shouldn't be any secret knowledge to DPS over someone just looking at consoles and abilities.
Gimme 1/3rd of it and you have a deal...
"The problem is marion and overcapping"
"and overcapping"
You are having a laugh right? Overcapping is how cruiser players get over the beam weakness that is their own drain mechanics!
As for this, most people know that overcapping works, and as revealed by Geko, it is a feature of the game and it working as intended, nobody makes a secret of overcapping, if you don't know about it then ask and someone will explain.
Don't parse and over simplify please.
It's not needed to talk like that. I'm allowed to have an opinion.
There shouldn't be hidden mechanics or some crazy expensive doff to make beams work. Which is the whole point of what I said earlier. Changing drain mechanics is also needed, but one thing at a time.
How is a new player supposed to ask about something he does't know exists? Also most people I talk to have no idea about overapping.
This is what Geko said:
He says he's pretty sure it's working how it's supposed to, but he hasn't looked at the math in a long time. That's not totally saying it's supposed to work that way. I was pretty sure I locked my car last night, but this morning, when I checked, it was unlocked. Good thing I found out before my wife did...
My beef isn't necessarily with overcapping itself. If it is a feature they want to keep, then have something in game saying so or some sort of UI to show it's working. If they decide not to keep it, then beams need to be tweaked to fill in for the loss of overcapping. Keeping it like it is now doesn't make sense.
i think it funny myself so the avenger makes beams stronger well big deal right?.
I think the whiners should either adapt or quit the game its that simple if they cant handle a ship with strong weapons then why are they PvP'ng anyways.
cannons fire individualy 1 at a time and power recharges between each one, without rapid fire each cannon shot has full power, with rapid fire the drain is like 3-4 for each consecutive shot. Beams all fire at the same time draining power at 10 per weapon at the same time. 100 power and 8 beams fired will leave 20 power left needing 80 to recharge before the next shot according to the math of -10 when other weapons are fired. That drain makes beams ridiculously subpar while aux2bat/marion makes them the way they should be. Not Op but good because the power drain is negated to equal to cannon weapons at best.
Now with a proper Aux2bat you lose out on any sci ability that uses aux power, haz emitters becomes a cleaner only with a negligeable hull heal as an example. aux2sif is either not equiped or cannot be used in an emergency so if alpha strike takes out the shields and get a torp crit you cannot heal until cooldown is complete AND aux power recharges thus a huge weakness there. But then when aux is recharged and aux2sif is used weapons become patheticly weak so escorts can continue firing anyway.
"I'm drunk, whats your excuse for being an idiot?" - Unknown drunk man. :eek:
I never said you weren't
The "crazy expensive doff" is not essential to making beams work. Overcaping is if you want the most from them, but I can run a T3 Excelsior with no doffs and only common Mk X gear and still not drag an elite STF down (I'm willing to show you if you want, pm me in game sometime)
I was new once, I learned about overcapping thanks to people in game and on the forums, it really isn't THAT hard to find out about it if you find someone doing scary amounts of damage with beams and ask them how.
I'm well aware of what Geko said, I read it myself with great interest, and if you read some of the comments after you'll see Virus and co explaining that it really does work as stated and thus as intended. There is nothing wrong with the system as it is, it is very rare that groups fail endgame content and it has been that way since season 6 so obviously something is right.
Now you might want to put the blame on systems that have been in play for years and never caused an issue but the rest of us prefer to focus on the more recent balance offenders such as Aux2Batt + technician doffs that take all cooldowns to global.
A2B can double your damage output without much issue, however its going to make you draw more agro and A2B has severely gimped any healing you have. This hasn't been a huge issue because all the insane passive heals we have now make it so you rarely need active healing. Power creep without a corresponding increase to enemy difficult is causing A2B to be much more widely used than back in S5/6.
Marion has no real downside, DEM is going to increase your damage, then Marion is going to come along and double it again. Most people really don't know how much weapon drain lowers your damage. The only cost is a low level eng slot and a single active duty slot, plus a boatload of money because this is pay to win.
When you combine the two its multiplying multiples of damage, its a horrible design decision. Its pretty clear whoever put these mechanics in the game has no clue at all what is going on. So my stance is A2B was working perfectly fine for quite a while, Marion caused an outrage the minute it was released, as it became more accessible and more and more ships with increasingly op and p2w set ups are released they are making combinations that were never possible before.
A2B can be fixed by fixing the actual missions which are insanely easy, this has to happen anyway. Marion can't be fixed, it needs something done, possibly make the amount of drain resistance it has scale with aux power? That would solve it and leave it a useful Doff.
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Marion requires DEM and all Marion does is reduce weapon power drain while DEM is in effect. DEM itself does not increase damage but divides between shield and hull. More weapon power will increase damage. But Marion and DEM is NOT required for an aux2bat build if flow caps is maxed and 1 MK XII blue flow cap console or better and energy siphon 1 is used because weapon power will be over 100 while energy siphon is in effect. Add a plasmonic leech and weapons power will be above 100 100% of the time add marion and 125 weapon power probably 75% of the time DEM is in effect.
Marion and DEM is not an aux2bat build and does not make the build OP, nor is it exclusive to aux2bat since sci in a sci ship and tac in a escort ship can utilize marion if atleats DEM1 can be slotted.
Anyone that thinks an Aux2bat build is OP when they fly atleast a fleet tactical escort with 4 MK XII purple DHC's seriously needs to rethink the build they use because aux2bat makes a beam boat cruiser on par with a low to low-mid skill escort build, i know becaiuse i have both builds and can double my escorts easy enough as well as increase it's surviveability with a simple reskill token. I cannot do the same with my full blown aux2bat fleet assault cruiser with marion and DEM3. Aux2bat main and farmer tac escort have practicaly the same DPS. Yes My farmer has the same DPS as my aux2bat it paid for over 3 mothes. Op My TRIBBLE!
But hey i have 3 escort tac characters too so i will jump on the nerf everyone else train, why not sci captains using sci ships only have 1 fore weapon and 10 hull. engi captains on a beam boat have 1 weapon fore and 1 aft and 100 hull so us simpleton tac captains flying DHC builds with 20k+ crits and 10k+ DPS can just look at them and they die because we are so unskilled and cannot handle a tank cruiser that has teeth to equal a new lvl 50 tac in an free token escort. Oh and do not forget to further nerf sci capabilities to useless making sci captains with a sci ship a slowly moving easy kill target because some tac captains do not know what emergency power to engines, attack pattern omega, hazard emitters, dueterium surplus, and many other things do. Yes please nerf them all except tac in escort! Nerf them including tac in beam boat or sci ship.:(
"I'm drunk, whats your excuse for being an idiot?" - Unknown drunk man. :eek:
Let's talk parses and not hubris. Them people with 11k to 15k BFAW dps boats are using all offensive rep powers with high crtH scores to proc the procs. At max gear you only get 10.67 k at max, 11.82k if using Rom plasma and sci consoles.
Let's talk practicalities. In Ker'rat, the dual cannons are the ones stealing Repair Hulk kills, not BFAW, because it is delivering 9-10k of focused fire and allowing you to earn credit. The above 11-15k is from hitting every dog and their mother. Again, very poor burst.
Let's talk ship design. By using A2B, you will sacrifice heals from aux power loss, and if you run Aux2SIF as well that breaks your cooldown cycling to 20s and kills automation in terms of healing (Aux2SIF gets fired off while your aux is low). If you wait for more aux before using A2SIF, then you break the cooldown cycling completely. In other words, using A2B turns your cruiser into an escort by increasing dps and reducing healing. Yes there are ways around it, but you are using suboptimal heals (Eng Team 3) or having longer cooldowns (RSP's 1 minute system cooldown). AND these can't apply to someone else.
So why are you nerfing cruisers that have all but configuring themselves to escorts? Go nerf DHC scorts first, then I'll consider a fair trade for losing this so-called "advantage".
"Last Engage! Magical Girl Origami-san" is in print! Now with three times more rainbows.
Support the "Armored Unicorn" vehicle initiative today!
Thanks for Harajuku. Now let's get a real "Magical Girl" costume!
Change that to "even with" and you will be correct. Marion only reduces weapon energy drain while DEM is used. DEM itself splits damage between hull and shields with or without Marion.
Odd fact I did my aux2bat beam boat without marion and marion is not required, over 20 parses without and another 20 with and there was a 1-2% increase in DPS. swapped out 1 MK XII blue tac console for a green MK XII with marion got the same quality results as i did without him. Required? Nope, usefull? TRIBBLE yeah! he really helps when the leech/flow caps is not in effect. after leech and flow caps he is useless. But I dont need Aux2bat to do that either since i get the same power in my KDF fleet corsair running 2 MK XII flow caps and energy siphon 1 like everyone doesd TT1 without aux2bat marion or the rest of that build(plus has 6 elite slavers gathering contraband for me).
"I'm drunk, whats your excuse for being an idiot?" - Unknown drunk man. :eek:
But as for all that it doesn't need a nerf, its not OP, its effective sure but only so much. I have more fun with differnet builds as do many others. once these cruiser commands go live i feel like a2b builds will wane and more styles will come forward again.
Time shall tell.
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