again 2 ships needing a console while entire lines have built in. NOT BALANCED YOU IDIOT.
Yes it is dimwit when the console using ships only give up a console slot instead of altered and lowered stats for to have the same ability set in design.
The defiant used to have a fixed cloak and no console for it but with one less console availible overall. The players where upset. It was changed to the current format to appease them and keep things balanced.
If you really want to go about picking nits, only one Defiant in the IP ever had a cloak and that one was destroyed. Do you think only one defiant ingame should have a cloak among all the ones that exist in the playerbase? Would you be willing to give your up to be stritct to canon?
Be quiet and enjoy the fact you even have said defiants with cloaks at all. It could easily have never happened in STO.
Oh and the Klingons and Romulans have had cloaks as standard fixtures since the 1970's. Thats why they have them as standard ingame and why they have handicaps to keep game balance in balance.
Yes it is dimwit when the console using ships only give up a console slot instead of altered and lowered stats for to have the same ability set in design.
The defiant used to have a fixed cloak and no console for it but with one less console availible overall. The players where upset. It was changed to the current format to appease them and keep things balanced.
If you really want to go about picking nits, only one Defiant in the IP ever had a cloak and that one was destroyed. Do you think only one defiant ingame should have a cloak among all the ones that exist in the playerbase? Would you be willing to give your up to be stritct to canon?
Be quiet and enjoy the fact you even have said defiants with cloaks at all. It could easily have never happened in STO.
Oh and the Klingons and Romulans have had cloaks as standard fixtures since the 1970's. Thats why they have them as standard ingame and why they have handicaps to keep game balance in balance.
Yes it is dimwit when the console using ships only give up a console slot instead of altered and lowered stats for to have the same ability set in design.
The defiant used to have a fixed cloak and no console for it but with one less console availible overall. The players where upset. It was changed to the current format to appease them and keep things balanced.
If you really want to go about picking nits, only one Defiant in the IP ever had a cloak and that one was destroyed. Do you think only one defiant ingame should have a cloak among all the ones that exist in the playerbase? Would you be willing to give your up to be stritct to canon?
Be quiet and enjoy the fact you even have said defiants with cloaks at all. It could easily have never happened in STO.
Oh and the Klingons and Romulans have had cloaks as standard fixtures since the 1970's. Thats why they have them as standard ingame and why they have handicaps to keep game balance in balance.
Again, you're using the shows to dictate game balance, when you should just be looking at the gameplay.
If we went by the shows, why are Federation captains commanding Jem'hadar ships, or Cardassian, Tholian, Temporal, etc.? If we go by canon, all players should only fly their own faction's ships.
So which is it? Do you want to analyze this from a gameplay perspective, or do you want to take away all Lockbox ships from the game? Because you can't sit between if you want to be so beholden to the shows, without looking like a total hypocrite.
Seems to me that the Bortasqu' gives up a little bit of shields, and .5 turn rate, but gains higher Hull and more Tactical console slots (largely considered the most valuable ones, going by these forums). It doesn't seem to be objectively inferior to the Odyssey, its direct counterpart... and still has its built-in cloak.
In fact, looking at Klingon ships, it seems the prevailing tradeoff is lower shields, higher hull. This is almost universally the case when comparing those ships to the closest Federation contemporary, and has nothing to do with their Cloak.
It's also worth noting that, apparently, the Fleet Defiant already has given up something for its cloak -- it is the only Fleet ship not to receive a 10% boost to its Shield Modifier. Which means that players who choose not to use the Cloaking device are needlessly penalized even further.
And the Bortasqu has a cloak that is only 80% effective. Unlike every other cloak in the game.
Again, you're using the shows to dictate game balance, when you should just be looking at the gameplay.
If we went by the shows, why are Federation captains commanding Jem'hadar ships, or Cardassian, Tholian, Temporal, etc.? If we go by canon, all players should only fly their own faction's ships.
So which is it? Do you want to analyze this from a gameplay perspective, or do you want to take away all Lockbox ships from the game? Because you can't sit between if you want to be so beholden to the shows, without looking like a total hypocrite.
funny to me i can take out just about any ship one on one with this ship and not need a cloak so why dose it need a integrated cloak?
Again, you're using the shows to dictate game balance, when you should just be looking at the gameplay.
If we went by the shows, why are Federation captains commanding Jem'hadar ships, or Cardassian, Tholian, Temporal, etc.? If we go by canon, all players should only fly their own faction's ships.
So which is it? Do you want to analyze this from a gameplay perspective, or do you want to take away all Lockbox ships from the game? Because you can't sit between if you want to be so beholden to the shows, without looking like a total hypocrite.
Acyually I used both game and IP sources just like evry other person who brings this old debat up evry few months.
The truth is the Defiant is balanced to its cloak and has the extra console slot and the cloak console to keep it so. You want a built in cloak then lose something for it. Want a battle cloak then lose more.
Or raise every loss the KDF bops and vessels suffer to have thiers and we can all built cloaks.
The fact that we have all sorts of alien nonfed nonKDF ships in lock boxes in play has nothing to with this debate and just a money grab on cryptics part.
Acyually I used both game and IP sources just like evry other person who brings this old debat up evry few months.
The truth is the Defiant is balanced to its cloak and has the extra console slot and the cloak console to keep it so. You want a built in cloak then lose something for it. Want a battle cloak then lose more.
Or raise every loss the KDF bops and vessels suffer to have thiers and we can all built cloaks.
The fact that we have all sorts of alien nonfed nonKDF ships in lock boxes in play has nothing to with this debate and just a money grab on cryptics part.
As I mentioned, the Fleet Defiant also misses out on its standard Fleet ship shield upgrade. This is done to balance its cloak, on top of needing to use up a console slot.
So, it gives up more just because it can use a cloak, even if you don't use it. This is broken. Your solution is "eh whatever", but if Cryptic is going to take something away from the ship just because it can use the cloak, why isn't the cloak standard?
ya i thought you have nothing to say to my post proves the i want i want and not give up something im sure i not be alone in this but i make it my job to make sure this ship gives up something to have a integrated cloak
As I mentioned, the Fleet Defiant also misses out on its standard Fleet ship shield upgrade. This is done to balance its cloak, on top of needing to use up a console slot.
So, it gives up more just because it can use a cloak, even if you don't use it. This is broken. Your solution is "eh whatever", but if Cryptic is going to take something away from the ship just because it can use the cloak, why isn't the cloak standard?
It gained a fifth Tac console instead of a fleet shield modifier boost. Something far better for its design thannmore shields. More fire power. As well as has already been mentioned the original Cloaking Defiant was given an extra console slot from it original released design to make up for the fact it has a cloaking console. So it lost nothing.
It gained a fifth Tac console instead of a fleet shield modifier boost. Something far better for its design thannmore shields. More fire power. So it lost nothing.
The Fleet Advanced Escort also gained a 5th tactical console, and its 10% boosted Shield Modifier.
Well, if folks have to stoop so low to prove a point, and thus they need to insult me, this thread ain't worth my time anymore.
I will just finish off with this: The Defiant and Gal-X have had their cloak as a console for a LONG time. And for all their faults, the devs have been wise enough to keep it as a console and keep it as a normal cloak. I really doubt that will be changing anytime soon.
I'm done with this thread. If people wanna just insult others who don't agree with them and act like kids just because they want something, go ahead.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
The Fleet Advanced Escort also gained a 5th tactical console, and its 10% boosted Shield Modifier.
Then why are ******** that it needs integrated cloaking? The fleet has suffered nothing it seems. More fire power, more defense and cloaking on the same strong platform that allows it decloak alpha and loiter in combat with no fear.
Then why are ******** that it needs integrated cloaking? The fleet has suffered nothing it seems. More fire power, more defense and cloaking on the same strong platform that allows it decloak alpha and loiter in combat with no fear.
that is what they want a uber OP escort get a JHAS if they want that
Then why are ******** that it needs integrated cloaking? The fleet has suffered nothing it seems. More fire power, more defense and cloaking on the same strong platform that allows it decloak alpha and loiter in combat with no fear.
Fleet Advanced Escort is not the same as the Fleet Defiant. This seems to have confused you.
The FTER gives up a console slot to use its cloak, and also doesn't receive its 10% boosted shield modifier, which every other fleet ship gets despite how many console slots they get, or if they can cloak. It's heavy-handed balancing that doesn't stand up next to current ships today.
Romulans and Klingons get unrestricted access to cloaks. In a PVP environment, this leaves the Federation at a severe disadvantage -- anyone who's seen group tactics in PVP can attest to this, with the KDF in particular using tanky ships as bait with several cloaked players waiting in the wings to ambush attackers. It's an excellent tactic that Federation players don't really have the same level of access to.
My question to you is: how does the Fleet Defiant gaining integrated cloaking hurt you? People against the Fleet Defiant receiving integrated cloak typically point to it being balanced (it's not), or that cloaking isn't really that great (true in PVE, not so much in PVP). So why shouldn't Federation players get easier and unrestricted access to cloaking? It's still locked to three ships now, one of which doesn't even have a Fleet version and is woefully underpowered in the current PVP game.
Integrated regular cloaking for a small number of Federation ships wouldn't break the game, and it's baffling that you're so aggressively against it.
any one recall the days when it had a integrated cloak and even then that was not good enough for them they wanted it to be a BC any one recall them days?
AGAIN TWO SHIPS, ONLY TWO FREAKING SHIPS, cannon wise had cloak for fed, Defiant, and Gal-X where as again the KDF and the Rommies have entire ship lines have integrated cloak. while these two only have consoles version. NOT BALANCED AND UNTIL YOU GET IT THROUGH YOUR THICK SKULL I WILL POUND YOU ON IT.
AGAIN TWO SHIPS, ONLY TWO FREAKING SHIPS, cannon wise had cloak for fed, Defiant, and Gal-X where as again the KDF and the Rommies have entire ship lines have integrated cloak. while these two only have consoles version. NOT BALANCED AND UNTIL YOU GET IT THROUGH YOUR THICK SKULL I WILL POUND YOU ON IT.
Even though we're on the same side here, I don't think this conversation is worth having if people are going to call others "idiot" and "dimwit", or getting this worked up about it.
If the feds have to use a console slot for a cloak it should be a battle cloak.. there having to give up a slot for it. If they were getting the cloak for free on the ship like all other cloaking ships then no it should not be a battle cloak... so I agree if they make feds use a console for the cloak it should be a battle cloak.
My question to you is: how does the Fleet Defiant gaining integrated cloaking hurt you? People against the Fleet Defiant receiving integrated cloak typically point to it being balanced (it's not), or that cloaking isn't really that great (true in PVE, not so much in PVP). So why shouldn't Federation players get easier and unrestricted access to cloaking? It's still locked to three ships now, one of which doesn't even have a Fleet version and is woefully underpowered in the current PVP game.
Integrated regular cloaking for a small number of Federation ships wouldn't break the game, and it's baffling that you're so aggressively against it.
The Fleet Excelsior costs more Fleet Modules because of it's intergrated Transwarp ability. By intergrating the Fleet Tactical Escort Retrofit cloak your going to pay more Fleet Modules. I suppose this doesn't effect all you guys already with it but it does effect everyone else.
If the Tactical Escort (in all it's forms) had Cloaking as standard from Starfleet ship yards it would make sense to have it intergrated. But the Defiant was a one off with an added device, the Game emulates this. Is it fair maybe not but before you cry foul remember it's the Klingons who have been continually shafted the most.
Also let's look at this logically, they just released a new Ship that uses the Cloaking console, if the intergrate it this ship can no longer equip the console. This screws up their buisness plan to Sell an Avenger and a TER or GalX. Since this change now effects something other than the two ships in question it's not going to happen.
I feel at the very least every ship at T5 needs to be adjusted and rebalanced. Older ships like the Galaxy R need to be upgraded and ships like BoPs need to be made less of a handicap.
I was once DKnight1000, apparently I had taken my own name so now I'm DKnight0001. If I ask you a question it is not an insult but a genuine attempt to understand why. When I insult you I won't be discreet about it, I will be precise and to the point stupid.
Even though we're on the same side here, I don't think this conversation is worth having if people are going to call others "idiot" and "dimwit", or getting this worked up about it.
Let's stay civil.
I appreciate and respect you wanting to keep it civil. Thus I am making this reply out of said respect.
Now, after so many beatings of this thoroughly dead horse, I have no real issue with the Defiant/Gal-X/Avenger gaining an integrated cloak, or letting it have a battle cloak as a console (or also integrating it). I'm not arguing against that.
What I am arguing against is people wanting to have their cake and eat it to. Or in other words, have their guaranteed cloak or battle cloak, and give up nothing for it. Like I've said, if they make it a battle cloak and/or integrate it, the devs, presuming they have any sense, WILL take something else. Most likely hull and/or shields still. Or maybe turn, I dunno. But they would. Keeping it as a console acts as the other point it's at now. It's entirely optional for someone to use it, but choosing to use it requires a console slot, and that's the counterbalance currently.
Now, should the Defiant maybe gain a fleet shield bonus like others? I don't know, but it was probably given that .9 for various reasons, cloak being one most likely, but also probably not the only one. I can't really say one or the other, except that if the cloak was integrated, don't expect that shield modifier to go up at all.
Ok, I will admit my mistake in an earlier post about Klingon ships. Namely that they had lower hull. I was mistaken, they do tend to have higher over-all hulls for their ships, which makes sense. BUT on average they do have lower shield modifiers. Honestly though, a few hundred points of hull can make much of a difference, larger amounts like...4000 or so do matter, but a few hundred to a thousand? Not a gigantic thing.
Shield modifiers on the other hand...I believe it was you who used the example of the Ody vs. the Bortas. The Bortas has the higher hull, but the Ody has the higher shields. It's a bit of an odd discussion since the Bortas is quite different from other Battlecruisers. Anyways, Bortas has a 1.0 modifier, while the Ody has a 1.15 modifier, which is a BIG difference in regards to shields. Not to mention the Bortas (unless you fly the sci one) has only a single science console slot. Sure it might be hitting like an absolute truck in the hands of a good pilot, but it is going to be REALLY hurting a lot in regards to some of it's own defenses. It's not going to die instantly of course, but it will be easier to take down compared to the much more tankish Ody.
I point again to my idea regarding cloaks. It's back a page or 2 now I believe. But I feel it keeps everything interesting and different, without totally killing uniqueness between factions in regards to cloaks at least.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
The Fleet Excelsior costs more Fleet Modules because of it's intergrated Transwarp ability. By intergrating the Fleet Tactical Escort Retrofit cloak your going to pay more Fleet Modules. I suppose this doesn't effect all you guys already with it but it does effect everyone else.
The basic issue I (and others) have is that the Federation cloaks are getting special treatment -- being regulated to consoles instead of built-in abilities -- that other factions aren't subjected to.
Basically, we want the cloaks to be treated the same as other factions' cloaks, supporting the idea that cloaks aren't special. Some ships can, some ships can't, and that's as far as it should go, rather than swapping consoles in and out.
If the Tactical Escort (in all it's forms) had Cloaking as standard from Starfleet ship yards it would make sense to have it intergrated. But the Defiant was a one off with an added device, the Game emulates this. Is it fair maybe not but before you cry foul remember it's the Klingons who have been continually shafted the most.
Also let's look at this logically, they just released a new Ship that uses the Cloaking console, if the intergrate it this ship can no longer equip the console. This screws up their buisness plan to Sell an Avenger and a TER or GalX. Since this change now effects something other than the two ships in question it's not going to happen.
While the first Defiant was a special case, and early Tactical Escort-type ships in lore were produced without them, the Federation still installed these cloaking devices on a large number of TER and FTER ships. We've seen in the show that a cloaking device by itself is small enough that two Ferengi can carry it, so there's really no reason to think of it as any kind of large added component. Still, as I said before, there's also no sense in arguing about Star Trek lore in this conversation; I'd rather keep the discussion about gameplay.
Ideally, with this change, any ships capable of using the cloak would just get the cloaking ability. The Avenger was designed basically as a Federation Scimitar, and I wouldn't be surprised if a KDF battle cruiser with 5/3 weapons is coming in the next few months that also has a cloak. What they do with the lack of console after that is up in the air -- the Gal-X is easiest, just turn its phaser lance into a console. I'm not really going to guess what they could give the Defiant-R to replace its lost console, although I'm not convinced anything is really necessary. The built-in cloak would be good enough for me.
I appreciate and respect you wanting to keep it civil. Thus I am making this reply out of said respect.
Now, after so many beatings of this thoroughly dead horse, I have no real issue with the Defiant/Gal-X/Avenger gaining an integrated cloak, or letting it have a battle cloak as a console (or also integrating it). I'm not arguing against that.
What I am arguing against is people wanting to have their cake and eat it to. Or in other words, have their guaranteed cloak or battle cloak, and give up nothing for it. Like I've said, if they make it a battle cloak and/or integrate it, the devs, presuming they have any sense, WILL take something else. Most likely hull and/or shields still. Or maybe turn, I dunno. But they would. Keeping it as a console acts as the other point it's at now. It's entirely optional for someone to use it, but choosing to use it requires a console slot, and that's the counterbalance currently.
As I said before, the FTER is one of the few Fleet ships that doesn't receive its boost to shield modifier, and this is almost without a doubt because of the ability to use the cloaking device. In a sense, it has already given something up for the cloak -- on top of the cloak using a console slot -- and this penalty is still there even if the player opts not to use the cloak.
The price is paid, but to players that never bought the TER, they aren't getting anything in return. The FTER costs the same as any other Fleet ship, but only gets 10% more Hull and 1 more console slot. The Fleet Prometheus gains a 5th tactical console slot, on top of its 10% boost to both Hull and Shield Modifier, so it's not the 5th console slot that's holding the FTER's shields back. Without either the proper Shield Modifier boost, or a built-in Cloak, people who buy the FTER are currently getting a little ripped off.
Each ship has higher Hull and Shields than the Fleet Defiant. Yes, there is still the issue of Romulan ships having 40 less Power to work with... but frankly, what really matters when discussing Cloaks is the Alpha Strike.
Romulan Battle Cloaks have a higher innate stealth value, and 10% higher Damage Bonus when decloaking (not to mention a big turn rate boost to help them get into a prime striking position). Even if the FTER had a built-in cloak, these Romulan ships would still be unbeatable in alpha strike damage.
This is why I am arguing for integrated cloaks. The Romulan cloaks are so good that with them in the game, the current cloaking console just feels like a needless handicap. I don't feel like I'm being greedy asking that the same cloak I already have, and that I'm already paying for with a lack of proper Fleet Ship shield boost, not take up a console slot.
Quite frankly, I doubt Cryptic is even considering Romulan Battle Cloaks when balancing Romulan ships. They've said in Dev Logs that the Singularity Cores having less Power is a tradeoff for the Singularity Abilities; if you feel like the tradeoff isn't worth it, then your issue is with the effectiveness of those abilities, not with cloaks. If Cryptic just adds a cloak to Romulan or Klingon ships because it's typical, then why are the few Federation ships treated like cloaking is such a special thing? It's simply not balanced.
As I said before, the FTER is one of the few Fleet ships that doesn't receive its boost to shield modifier, and this is almost without a doubt because of the ability to use the cloaking device. In a sense, it has already given something up for the cloak -- on top of the cloak using a console slot -- and this penalty is still there even if the player opts not to use the cloak.
The price is paid, but to players that never bought the TER, they aren't getting anything in return. The FTER costs the same as any other Fleet ship, but only gets 10% more Hull and 1 more console slot. The Fleet Prometheus gains a 5th tactical console slot, on top of its 10% boost to both Hull and Shield Modifier, so it's not the 5th console slot that's holding the FTER's shields back. Without either the proper Shield Modifier boost, or a built-in Cloak, people who buy the FTER are currently getting a little ripped off.
I do understand your point you are getting at. But I don't think whether people feel 'ripped off' or not really applies to the discussion. That is purely in the eye of the beholder. There might be a lot of people who feel that it is fine as-is. It's an entirely opinion based thing.
Again, I see where you are going with it though. All I'm trying to get at I suppose is that whether it's integrated, made a battle cloak, or both, is that folks shouldn't expect to have everything and give up nothing for it.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
I do understand your point you are getting at. But I don't think whether people feel 'ripped off' or not really applies to the discussion. That is purely in the eye of the beholder. There might be a lot of people who feel that it is fine as-is. It's an entirely opinion based thing.
Again, I see where you are going with it though. All I'm trying to get at I suppose is that whether it's integrated, made a battle cloak, or both, is that folks shouldn't expect to have everything and give up nothing for it.
Again, it's not about "having everything and giving up nothing". The FTER has already given up something for it by missing out on its 10% Shield boost. Not only is the price paid, but the product is less valuable these days than it used to be. There's no need to pay more for it now, as it's already costing way too much to use as-is. That's my whole point.
Keeping the cloak on a console is just a legacy holdover from a different state of the game from years ago. The game's changed a lot since then, which is why I believe this is becoming a serious balance issue.
Cryptic's original design philosophy with the Federation and the KDF is that, while the Klingons had cloaking ships, the Federation would have Science abilities that improved stealth detection. It was part of how they wanted the two factions to be flavored.
Then the Gal-X and Defiant-R were added to the game, and given cloaks. At the time, this was a genuinely special ability, and was fine on a console.
Nowadays, though, stealth detection has fallen out of favor -- you never see a Nebula in a PVP game, which was specifically designed to help entire teams ferret out cloaked ships. With the inclusion of the Romulans, PVP has basically become one big battle between cloaked ships, with lone non-cloaking players typically either being fodder for Alpha Strikes, or bait for a small cloaked fleet waiting to ambush attackers.
There's so much cloaking being bandied about these days that it's cheapened it, especially given how powerful Romulan Battle Cloaks are. That's why I think Federation cloaks should be built-in on select ships. Federation players who choose to play cloaked shouldn't be punished for it more than other cloaked ships, given how necessary it's becoming to have a cloak.
Why else would Cryptic add a cloaking option to the Federation battle cruiser? Even they're starting to see that a ship that can't cloak is starting to be worth a lot less.
Again, it's not about "having everything and giving up nothing". The FTER has already given up something for it by missing out on its 10% Shield boost. Not only is the price paid, but the product is less valuable these days than it used to be. There's no need to pay more for it now, as it's already costing way too much to use as-is. That's my whole point.
Keeping the cloak on a console is just a legacy holdover from a different state of the game from years ago. The game's changed a lot since then, which is why I believe this is becoming a serious balance issue.
*nods* I get that totally.
Awhile back, in the PvP section, I made a somewhat joking thread, but also serious. The OP of that thread essentially went like this:
"Fed and KDF are balanced for the most part in regards to the other faction"
Or in other words, if you compare only Fed and KDF, they are still fairly well balanced out, for all the faults of this game that it has. Now the other part of the post said:
"Romulans are also balanced, to OTHER Romulans. So there's no balancing issues!"
What I meant in that, was that Romulans are just so much BETTER over all compared to the other two factions that they pretty much eliminate the need to play either one. They simply just are superior.
My point from bringing that up is that the devs still have the pre-LoR mindset for balancing Feds and KDF. They still balance each faction in regards to the other one, Fed v. KDF, and don't seem to take Romulans in mind. Which is how they seem to treat issues like this thread we are in now. They still think about how it was 'then' and now how Romulans have flipped the table. Which is why I'm arguing how I am. I AGREE with you, they shouldn't pay an extra cost for something that already pays a cost, but I'm also arguing in terms of how it seems the devs seem to view things, devil's advocate in a different fashion.
Now, I do disagree on one thing: Feds shouldn't have cloak on all ships. Should be limited. I mean, almost all Klingon-designed ships have a basic cloak, but all their allied ships don't (like Orion ships, Gorn ships, etc). So not all Starfleet ships should get cloak IMO. Romulans all have cloaks because all they have ARE Romulan ships (at tier 5 of course). Lockbox ships are of course faction-free, so they don't count. But Romulans are also part of a larger, overall problem since they are several steps above everyone else.
Anyways, can't continue this anymore for now, need sleep.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
Comments
Yes it is dimwit when the console using ships only give up a console slot instead of altered and lowered stats for to have the same ability set in design.
The defiant used to have a fixed cloak and no console for it but with one less console availible overall. The players where upset. It was changed to the current format to appease them and keep things balanced.
If you really want to go about picking nits, only one Defiant in the IP ever had a cloak and that one was destroyed. Do you think only one defiant ingame should have a cloak among all the ones that exist in the playerbase? Would you be willing to give your up to be stritct to canon?
Be quiet and enjoy the fact you even have said defiants with cloaks at all. It could easily have never happened in STO.
Oh and the Klingons and Romulans have had cloaks as standard fixtures since the 1970's. Thats why they have them as standard ingame and why they have handicaps to keep game balance in balance.
R.I.P
soooooo much this^^^^^^^^^^^^
system Lord Baal is dead
Again, you're using the shows to dictate game balance, when you should just be looking at the gameplay.
If we went by the shows, why are Federation captains commanding Jem'hadar ships, or Cardassian, Tholian, Temporal, etc.? If we go by canon, all players should only fly their own faction's ships.
So which is it? Do you want to analyze this from a gameplay perspective, or do you want to take away all Lockbox ships from the game? Because you can't sit between if you want to be so beholden to the shows, without looking like a total hypocrite.
And the Bortasqu has a cloak that is only 80% effective. Unlike every other cloak in the game.
R.I.P
funny to me i can take out just about any ship one on one with this ship and not need a cloak so why dose it need a integrated cloak?
system Lord Baal is dead
A quick Google search showed the Bortas as currently using 95% effective cloak, not 80.
Acyually I used both game and IP sources just like evry other person who brings this old debat up evry few months.
The truth is the Defiant is balanced to its cloak and has the extra console slot and the cloak console to keep it so. You want a built in cloak then lose something for it. Want a battle cloak then lose more.
Or raise every loss the KDF bops and vessels suffer to have thiers and we can all built cloaks.
The fact that we have all sorts of alien nonfed nonKDF ships in lock boxes in play has nothing to with this debate and just a money grab on cryptics part.
R.I.P
As I mentioned, the Fleet Defiant also misses out on its standard Fleet ship shield upgrade. This is done to balance its cloak, on top of needing to use up a console slot.
So, it gives up more just because it can use a cloak, even if you don't use it. This is broken. Your solution is "eh whatever", but if Cryptic is going to take something away from the ship just because it can use the cloak, why isn't the cloak standard?
system Lord Baal is dead
Goodie for us KDF. Our crappy cloak is less crappy. Share the link.
R.I.P
It gained a fifth Tac console instead of a fleet shield modifier boost. Something far better for its design thannmore shields. More fire power. As well as has already been mentioned the original Cloaking Defiant was given an extra console slot from it original released design to make up for the fact it has a cloaking console. So it lost nothing.
R.I.P
The Fleet Advanced Escort also gained a 5th tactical console, and its 10% boosted Shield Modifier.
I will just finish off with this: The Defiant and Gal-X have had their cloak as a console for a LONG time. And for all their faults, the devs have been wise enough to keep it as a console and keep it as a normal cloak. I really doubt that will be changing anytime soon.
I'm done with this thread. If people wanna just insult others who don't agree with them and act like kids just because they want something, go ahead.
Then why are ******** that it needs integrated cloaking? The fleet has suffered nothing it seems. More fire power, more defense and cloaking on the same strong platform that allows it decloak alpha and loiter in combat with no fear.
R.I.P
that is what they want a uber OP escort get a JHAS if they want that
system Lord Baal is dead
Fleet Advanced Escort is not the same as the Fleet Defiant. This seems to have confused you.
The FTER gives up a console slot to use its cloak, and also doesn't receive its 10% boosted shield modifier, which every other fleet ship gets despite how many console slots they get, or if they can cloak. It's heavy-handed balancing that doesn't stand up next to current ships today.
Romulans and Klingons get unrestricted access to cloaks. In a PVP environment, this leaves the Federation at a severe disadvantage -- anyone who's seen group tactics in PVP can attest to this, with the KDF in particular using tanky ships as bait with several cloaked players waiting in the wings to ambush attackers. It's an excellent tactic that Federation players don't really have the same level of access to.
My question to you is: how does the Fleet Defiant gaining integrated cloaking hurt you? People against the Fleet Defiant receiving integrated cloak typically point to it being balanced (it's not), or that cloaking isn't really that great (true in PVE, not so much in PVP). So why shouldn't Federation players get easier and unrestricted access to cloaking? It's still locked to three ships now, one of which doesn't even have a Fleet version and is woefully underpowered in the current PVP game.
Integrated regular cloaking for a small number of Federation ships wouldn't break the game, and it's baffling that you're so aggressively against it.
system Lord Baal is dead
system Lord Baal is dead
system Lord Baal is dead
Even though we're on the same side here, I don't think this conversation is worth having if people are going to call others "idiot" and "dimwit", or getting this worked up about it.
Let's stay civil.
I couldn't agree more!
The Fleet Excelsior costs more Fleet Modules because of it's intergrated Transwarp ability. By intergrating the Fleet Tactical Escort Retrofit cloak your going to pay more Fleet Modules. I suppose this doesn't effect all you guys already with it but it does effect everyone else.
If the Tactical Escort (in all it's forms) had Cloaking as standard from Starfleet ship yards it would make sense to have it intergrated. But the Defiant was a one off with an added device, the Game emulates this. Is it fair maybe not but before you cry foul remember it's the Klingons who have been continually shafted the most.
Also let's look at this logically, they just released a new Ship that uses the Cloaking console, if the intergrate it this ship can no longer equip the console. This screws up their buisness plan to Sell an Avenger and a TER or GalX. Since this change now effects something other than the two ships in question it's not going to happen.
I feel at the very least every ship at T5 needs to be adjusted and rebalanced. Older ships like the Galaxy R need to be upgraded and ships like BoPs need to be made less of a handicap.
If I ask you a question it is not an insult but a genuine attempt to understand why.
When I insult you I won't be discreet about it, I will be precise and to the point stupid.
I appreciate and respect you wanting to keep it civil. Thus I am making this reply out of said respect.
Now, after so many beatings of this thoroughly dead horse, I have no real issue with the Defiant/Gal-X/Avenger gaining an integrated cloak, or letting it have a battle cloak as a console (or also integrating it). I'm not arguing against that.
What I am arguing against is people wanting to have their cake and eat it to. Or in other words, have their guaranteed cloak or battle cloak, and give up nothing for it. Like I've said, if they make it a battle cloak and/or integrate it, the devs, presuming they have any sense, WILL take something else. Most likely hull and/or shields still. Or maybe turn, I dunno. But they would. Keeping it as a console acts as the other point it's at now. It's entirely optional for someone to use it, but choosing to use it requires a console slot, and that's the counterbalance currently.
Now, should the Defiant maybe gain a fleet shield bonus like others? I don't know, but it was probably given that .9 for various reasons, cloak being one most likely, but also probably not the only one. I can't really say one or the other, except that if the cloak was integrated, don't expect that shield modifier to go up at all.
Ok, I will admit my mistake in an earlier post about Klingon ships. Namely that they had lower hull. I was mistaken, they do tend to have higher over-all hulls for their ships, which makes sense. BUT on average they do have lower shield modifiers. Honestly though, a few hundred points of hull can make much of a difference, larger amounts like...4000 or so do matter, but a few hundred to a thousand? Not a gigantic thing.
Shield modifiers on the other hand...I believe it was you who used the example of the Ody vs. the Bortas. The Bortas has the higher hull, but the Ody has the higher shields. It's a bit of an odd discussion since the Bortas is quite different from other Battlecruisers. Anyways, Bortas has a 1.0 modifier, while the Ody has a 1.15 modifier, which is a BIG difference in regards to shields. Not to mention the Bortas (unless you fly the sci one) has only a single science console slot. Sure it might be hitting like an absolute truck in the hands of a good pilot, but it is going to be REALLY hurting a lot in regards to some of it's own defenses. It's not going to die instantly of course, but it will be easier to take down compared to the much more tankish Ody.
I point again to my idea regarding cloaks. It's back a page or 2 now I believe. But I feel it keeps everything interesting and different, without totally killing uniqueness between factions in regards to cloaks at least.
The basic issue I (and others) have is that the Federation cloaks are getting special treatment -- being regulated to consoles instead of built-in abilities -- that other factions aren't subjected to.
Basically, we want the cloaks to be treated the same as other factions' cloaks, supporting the idea that cloaks aren't special. Some ships can, some ships can't, and that's as far as it should go, rather than swapping consoles in and out.
While the first Defiant was a special case, and early Tactical Escort-type ships in lore were produced without them, the Federation still installed these cloaking devices on a large number of TER and FTER ships. We've seen in the show that a cloaking device by itself is small enough that two Ferengi can carry it, so there's really no reason to think of it as any kind of large added component. Still, as I said before, there's also no sense in arguing about Star Trek lore in this conversation; I'd rather keep the discussion about gameplay.
Ideally, with this change, any ships capable of using the cloak would just get the cloaking ability. The Avenger was designed basically as a Federation Scimitar, and I wouldn't be surprised if a KDF battle cruiser with 5/3 weapons is coming in the next few months that also has a cloak. What they do with the lack of console after that is up in the air -- the Gal-X is easiest, just turn its phaser lance into a console. I'm not really going to guess what they could give the Defiant-R to replace its lost console, although I'm not convinced anything is really necessary. The built-in cloak would be good enough for me.
As I said before, the FTER is one of the few Fleet ships that doesn't receive its boost to shield modifier, and this is almost without a doubt because of the ability to use the cloaking device. In a sense, it has already given something up for the cloak -- on top of the cloak using a console slot -- and this penalty is still there even if the player opts not to use the cloak.
The price is paid, but to players that never bought the TER, they aren't getting anything in return. The FTER costs the same as any other Fleet ship, but only gets 10% more Hull and 1 more console slot. The Fleet Prometheus gains a 5th tactical console slot, on top of its 10% boost to both Hull and Shield Modifier, so it's not the 5th console slot that's holding the FTER's shields back. Without either the proper Shield Modifier boost, or a built-in Cloak, people who buy the FTER are currently getting a little ripped off.
Scimitar Dreadnought Warbird
Fleet Ha'feh Assault Warbird
Fleet Dhelan Warbord Retrofit
Each ship has higher Hull and Shields than the Fleet Defiant. Yes, there is still the issue of Romulan ships having 40 less Power to work with... but frankly, what really matters when discussing Cloaks is the Alpha Strike.
Romulan Battle Cloaks have a higher innate stealth value, and 10% higher Damage Bonus when decloaking (not to mention a big turn rate boost to help them get into a prime striking position). Even if the FTER had a built-in cloak, these Romulan ships would still be unbeatable in alpha strike damage.
This is why I am arguing for integrated cloaks. The Romulan cloaks are so good that with them in the game, the current cloaking console just feels like a needless handicap. I don't feel like I'm being greedy asking that the same cloak I already have, and that I'm already paying for with a lack of proper Fleet Ship shield boost, not take up a console slot.
Quite frankly, I doubt Cryptic is even considering Romulan Battle Cloaks when balancing Romulan ships. They've said in Dev Logs that the Singularity Cores having less Power is a tradeoff for the Singularity Abilities; if you feel like the tradeoff isn't worth it, then your issue is with the effectiveness of those abilities, not with cloaks. If Cryptic just adds a cloak to Romulan or Klingon ships because it's typical, then why are the few Federation ships treated like cloaking is such a special thing? It's simply not balanced.
I do understand your point you are getting at. But I don't think whether people feel 'ripped off' or not really applies to the discussion. That is purely in the eye of the beholder. There might be a lot of people who feel that it is fine as-is. It's an entirely opinion based thing.
Again, I see where you are going with it though. All I'm trying to get at I suppose is that whether it's integrated, made a battle cloak, or both, is that folks shouldn't expect to have everything and give up nothing for it.
Again, it's not about "having everything and giving up nothing". The FTER has already given up something for it by missing out on its 10% Shield boost. Not only is the price paid, but the product is less valuable these days than it used to be. There's no need to pay more for it now, as it's already costing way too much to use as-is. That's my whole point.
Keeping the cloak on a console is just a legacy holdover from a different state of the game from years ago. The game's changed a lot since then, which is why I believe this is becoming a serious balance issue.
Cryptic's original design philosophy with the Federation and the KDF is that, while the Klingons had cloaking ships, the Federation would have Science abilities that improved stealth detection. It was part of how they wanted the two factions to be flavored.
Then the Gal-X and Defiant-R were added to the game, and given cloaks. At the time, this was a genuinely special ability, and was fine on a console.
Nowadays, though, stealth detection has fallen out of favor -- you never see a Nebula in a PVP game, which was specifically designed to help entire teams ferret out cloaked ships. With the inclusion of the Romulans, PVP has basically become one big battle between cloaked ships, with lone non-cloaking players typically either being fodder for Alpha Strikes, or bait for a small cloaked fleet waiting to ambush attackers.
There's so much cloaking being bandied about these days that it's cheapened it, especially given how powerful Romulan Battle Cloaks are. That's why I think Federation cloaks should be built-in on select ships. Federation players who choose to play cloaked shouldn't be punished for it more than other cloaked ships, given how necessary it's becoming to have a cloak.
Why else would Cryptic add a cloaking option to the Federation battle cruiser? Even they're starting to see that a ship that can't cloak is starting to be worth a lot less.
*nods* I get that totally.
Awhile back, in the PvP section, I made a somewhat joking thread, but also serious. The OP of that thread essentially went like this:
"Fed and KDF are balanced for the most part in regards to the other faction"
Or in other words, if you compare only Fed and KDF, they are still fairly well balanced out, for all the faults of this game that it has. Now the other part of the post said:
"Romulans are also balanced, to OTHER Romulans. So there's no balancing issues!"
What I meant in that, was that Romulans are just so much BETTER over all compared to the other two factions that they pretty much eliminate the need to play either one. They simply just are superior.
My point from bringing that up is that the devs still have the pre-LoR mindset for balancing Feds and KDF. They still balance each faction in regards to the other one, Fed v. KDF, and don't seem to take Romulans in mind. Which is how they seem to treat issues like this thread we are in now. They still think about how it was 'then' and now how Romulans have flipped the table. Which is why I'm arguing how I am. I AGREE with you, they shouldn't pay an extra cost for something that already pays a cost, but I'm also arguing in terms of how it seems the devs seem to view things, devil's advocate in a different fashion.
Now, I do disagree on one thing: Feds shouldn't have cloak on all ships. Should be limited. I mean, almost all Klingon-designed ships have a basic cloak, but all their allied ships don't (like Orion ships, Gorn ships, etc). So not all Starfleet ships should get cloak IMO. Romulans all have cloaks because all they have ARE Romulan ships (at tier 5 of course). Lockbox ships are of course faction-free, so they don't count. But Romulans are also part of a larger, overall problem since they are several steps above everyone else.
Anyways, can't continue this anymore for now, need sleep.