I just realized that ground pvp is not fun

mcduffie369

If you're not in the premade you are under it. I am so tired of fighting the same players over and over. The pugs and new players often show up, realize that ground pvp is small in scale and dominated ny the same 20-50 players(and that's being generous), and never Q again. Dose cryptic have anything up their sleeve to breath new life into ground pvp?
I have been a ground pvp player since launch, and this morning it hit me like a ton of bricks.

aquitaine985

Pretty much.

I'm an accolade *****. I LOVE getting all the accolades.

But the ground PVP ones? Forget it, even the nebula/enemy instance accolades were less aggravating to get lol.

roxbad

I'd like to see some 1v1 ground PvP. 2 players with their away teams contesting one map.

mcduffie369

roxbad wrote: »

I'd like to see some 1v1 ground PvP. 2 players with their away teams contesting one map.

That would be pretty cool. I have thought of it many times.

rylanadionysis

I come from SWG ground pvp, where I was extremely hardcore into it for 8 years. Ground PVP was my entire gameplay really. I know how to gear, target, coordinate, line of sight, chain abilities and buffs, and the normal interactions you see in solo or group based pvp of most types.

But here... the ground game is an utter joke. Any time you have attacks that can literally do more damage than a player will have health (especially reliably and consistently)... that is all people will use.

Mines, ambush snipes, etc.

Youre dead before you even knew you were in combat.

When I was leveling up and the kits were relatively weak, I did just fine in the lower pvp queues. But once I hit the VA queues, hell no. 1000+ health crits? Thats twice the health pool on most toons. What the hell?

We talk about the power creep in space, but jesus christ the fleet gear power creep on the ground is about three times worse. The kit powers and weapon damages are set up to fight bosses with 6000 HP and as much in shields. They do the exact same damage to a player with 1/10th of that and are thus 10 times as lethal.

All weapons/powers (especially mines and big damage rifles and assault weapons) in ground PvP should be automatically set to do anywhere from 75-90% less damage to a player that they would do to an NPC. Either that or add a zero to everyones shield and health pool, since thats the standard these weapons have been balanced against.

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ussultimatum

rylanadionysis wrote: »

All weapons/powers (especially mines and big damage rifles and assault weapons) in ground PvP should be automatically set to do anywhere from 75-90% less damage to a player that they would do to an NPC. Either that or add a zero to everyones shield and health pool, since thats the standard these weapons have been balanced against.

Bort once ran it by the community I think, about increasing health pools on the ground in PvP.

I don't know what happened to that.

mcduffie369

The problem is the scale of pvp and the lack of a ranking option. Say if you want to play an unranked match you can not Q with a team and teams must Q for ranked matches. Also, the maps are far too small and have too low of a player capacity. It is a death match and dose not feel like war at all.

nulonu

It's kinda funny actually. With Season 4 health and shields were drastically reduced. I seem to remember having 700hps and 500 shield hps or something like that. Idk if more health is the answer tho. Most every class has some way to tank dmg and multiple scis cross healing creates the same problem space has where nothing dies. Unlike space however where a fast moving ship being hard to hit makes sense, "dodging" on ground makes no sense. If the invisible dodge stat is stacked up high enough you can sit on someone at 0m with a pulsewave and shoot them and do no dmg because they "dodged" that big burst of phaser energy! Lol. Imagine tractoring someone in space and smacking torps at them that all miss because the motionless ship "dodged" them.

So yeah ground has issues but I still love it. :P

janetza

rylanadionysis wrote: »

Youre dead before you even knew you were in combat.

There are no one shot kills on ground.

We talk about the power creep in space, but jesus christ the fleet gear power creep on the ground is about three times worse. The kit powers and weapon damages are set up to fight bosses with 6000 HP and as much in shields. They do the exact same damage to a player with 1/10th of that and are thus 10 times as lethal.

It's not true.

All weapons/powers (especially mines and big damage rifles and assault weapons) in ground PvP should be automatically set to do anywhere from 75-90% less damage to a player that they would do to an NPC. Either that or add a zero to everyones shield and health pool, since thats the standard these weapons have been balanced against.

lol maybe they got to remove all the guns so we would play with snowballs and nobody gets hurt?
Problem is that you don't know how to play on ground so you call it imba. If you can easy kill npc it doesn't mean you have a good character. There are a lot of ground specifications, buffs, debuffs, strategies, etc.
I'm not even playing with ground specified character(I proced for space mainly) and still it is good.
Some matches you win, some lose and some are complete fail, it is normal.
Real problem for ground is open spawn point.
I didn't know about pvp too. All elite stf's were just a walk in park for me, I can 1vs1 Armek, etc. I joined pvp and failed. It means pvp is wrong? No. I asked for help instead and received it.
Thanks

thay8472

I'd settle for some more maps. Or... the schmatics for the bed sheet fort.

rylanadionysis

taut0u wrote: »

There are no one shot kills on ground.


It's not true.


lol maybe they got to remove all the guns so we would play with snowballs and nobody gets hurt?
Problem is that you don't know how to play on ground so you call it imba. If you can easy kill npc it doesn't mean you have a good character. There are a lot of ground specifications, buffs, debuffs, strategies, etc.
I'm not even playing with ground specified character(I proced for space mainly) and still it is good.
Some matches you win, some lose and some are complete fail, it is normal.
Real problem for ground is open spawn point.
I didn't know about pvp too. All elite stf's were just a walk in park for me, I can 1vs1 Armek, etc. I joined pvp and failed. It means pvp is wrong? No. I asked for help instead and received it.
Thanks

Youre actually full of it tbqh.

An ambush attack can crit for over 1200 damage. ive seen it, ive been the recipient of it. Thats twice the average health pool, even with very high resistances its likely going to kill you. if it does not, youve got the barest sliver of a red line left and the next shot drops you.

Mines stack crit hits in the 700s, and multiply that by the number of mines stacked around. Hell ive seen engys hero mode into people, drop mines, and wipe a whole group before.

I like your implying that I dont know how to PvP. There are over a dozen videos of me and my guild from SWG rolling people in coordinated ground matches. The damage mechanics here are in another world, the damage potential of virtually any kit spec is greater than the defensive potential of the characters. In that game there was no single attack that could (even in the best of circumstances) drop a player under half health. It took at least a series of coordinated blows that overcame whatever defensive and healing abilities they had. Rare, and I mean very rare, was the person that could do it any faster than 15-20 seconds solo.

To me this version of ground based PvP is wholly focused around the silver bullet method. Stack up a bunch of alpha strike buffs and drop your target before they can even react. For added lulz add a few knockbacks or disables to ensure you dont even get scratched in the process.

To be frank, that isnt so much a skill thing as it is a mismatch of powers (offense vs defense).

farseeridranel

Actually, ground pvp is quite a lot of fun as long there are only random people with normal items joining up to pvp a bit, but as soon some of the aforementioned pro-pvpers come with their groups fun is over. There should be a random mixing, when the game starts, so you don't have to get overrun by these guys. It would also be nice, if weapons (all things causing damage) would be lowered "versus player". Like in Diablo2 where player receive only 1/6 of the damage a monster would receive.

mcduffie369

What if there where 2 options in which teams could only Q for a ranked match and to play an unranked match you must Q for a random team. You could still arrange private matches of course.

cerritourug

The basic ground PVP is fun. But the bigger problem it is that there is so much bugs and exploits that most of the pre made use, that is not even funny.

I remember once, a big ground PVP premade using only the knockback exploit, took my medic to a trip through the hole map. I never again came back to ground pvp, even that I love ground.

And if cryptic does not even care about Space PVP, well.. ground... lol.. I dont think that they even know that there is Ground PVP in this game.. well.. I dont know if they even know that there is ground in this game.

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zeratk

mcduffie369 wrote: »

If you're not in the premade you are under it. I am so tired of fighting the same players over and over. The pugs and new players often show up, realize that ground pvp is small in scale and dominated ny the same 20-50 players(and that's being generous), and never Q again.

Yeah that is generous.

And with all the trashtalkers around and people who like to grief and camp new ground pvplers the number never will rise.

farseeridranel wrote: »

Actually, ground pvp is quite a lot of fun as long there are only random people with normal items joining up to pvp a bit, but as soon some of the aforementioned pro-pvpers come with their groups fun is over. There should be a random mixing, when the game starts, so you don't have to get overrun by these guys. It would also be nice, if weapons (all things causing damage) would be lowered "versus player". Like in Diablo2 where player receive only 1/6 of the damage a monster would receive.

For a couple of weeks, you won't find a single match with only random pugs. At least one team consists (partially) of a premade.

mcduffie369

Every time I Q up lately I fight one of 3 premades. It is only a matter of time before no one but the premades Q and pvp exists exclusively for them.

voporak

taut0u wrote: »

There are no one shot kills on ground.

Tell that to my Lunge III when it critted on someone.

mcduffie369

All we need to fix this is a random team option!!!

majortiraomega

rylanadionysis wrote: »

Youre actually full of it tbqh.

An ambush attack can crit for over 1200 damage. ive seen it, ive been the recipient of it. Thats twice the average health pool, even with very high resistances its likely going to kill you. if it does not, youve got the barest sliver of a red line left and the next shot drops you.

Mines stack crit hits in the 700s, and multiply that by the number of mines stacked around. Hell ive seen engys hero mode into people, drop mines, and wipe a whole group before.

I like your implying that I dont know how to PvP. There are over a dozen videos of me and my guild from SWG rolling people in coordinated ground matches. The damage mechanics here are in another world, the damage potential of virtually any kit spec is greater than the defensive potential of the characters. In that game there was no single attack that could (even in the best of circumstances) drop a player under half health. It took at least a series of coordinated blows that overcame whatever defensive and healing abilities they had. Rare, and I mean very rare, was the person that could do it any faster than 15-20 seconds solo.

To me this version of ground based PvP is wholly focused around the silver bullet method. Stack up a bunch of alpha strike buffs and drop your target before they can even react. For added lulz add a few knockbacks or disables to ensure you dont even get scratched in the process.

To be frank, that isnt so much a skill thing as it is a mismatch of powers (offense vs defense).

You know, after reading this thread I spent two hours writing up a long explanation of why Ground PvP is balanced and why it works in the current state. I decided it was far too long, and nobody would even bother reading if I had posted it. I'll try to keep this comment simple this time around.

Every class can tank, deal high damage, or act as a team utility depending on what kit they use. Tactical officers are not king in ground PvP with their high spike damage. There is a lot more to Ground PvP than oneshotting someone. Oneshotting rarely works on experienced Ground PvPers, most of the time it's pressure damage that brings a target down. Sure, I've been oneshotted, but I've learned to counter the one hit kill cloakers. One key thing is the cloaker needs to point blank you with their pulsewave, or they will lose 60-100% of their damage. Mines are only deadly if you run though them or remain in the field when it arms. I too have seen engineers run into the other team just to drop a minefield. (Alright, I admit it, I did this last night) The truth is, this attack can be avoided simply by moving out of the minefield. The medic on the team can then play minesweeper, slowly triggering the mines has they heal. A science tactical officer can also use shooter mode to drop a plasma grenade or induction field on the minefield, setting it off early.

Make a ground character with a full 100k skill spec and all ground traits. Stack the Peak Health trait and the Tier I Nukara health bonus. Next pop on an STF set or Elite Fleet Armor + Shields. Ensure that you have 3-6 skill points in combat armor and PS Generator and go all defensive passives for Tier III Nukara/Omega/Romulan. Take the Offense passive for Omega Tier I and the Defense Passive for Tier I Romulan. If you do all of that, you will be very hard to oneshot just due to pure passives.

Tier III Reputation is vital for survival in ground PvP. The same is true with space. If you go into a space map against a fully geared/repped out opponent in a fleet ship with your Rear Admiral ship, you may do decently, but skill being equal you will get slapped around. If you can make a character specifically for Ground PvP, then ground can be a lot of fun.

Everything on the ground has counters. I'll give you a few examples.

Tactical Kit - Fire Team
Strong against: Analyst, Fabrication Specialist
Equal against: Physicist, Medic, Enemy Neutralization, Equipment Technician
Weak against: Operative, Security Protocols

Tactical Kit - Operative
Strong against: Physicist, Analyst, Fabrication Specialist, Fire Team
Equal against: Equipment Technician
Weak against: Medic, Enemy Neutralization, Security Protocols

Tactical Kit - Security Protocols
Strong against: Fire Team, Operative, Physicist, Analyst
Equal against: Fabrication Specialist
Weak against: Enemy Neutralization, Equipment Technician, Medic

Science Kit - Medic
Strong against: Operative, Security Protocols, Fabrication Specialist
Equal against: Fire Team, Equipment Technician, Physicist, Analyst
Weak against: Enemy Neutralization

Science Kit - Analyst
Strong against: Equipment Technician, Fabrication Specialist, Enemy Neutralization
Equal against: Physicist, Medic
Weak against: Fire Team, Operative, Security Protocols

Science Kit - Physicist
Strong against: Enemy Neutralization, Fabrication Specialist
Equal against: Medic, Fire Team, Analyst, Equipment Technician
Weak against: Operative, Security Protocols

Engineering Kit - Enemy Neutralization
Strong against: Medic, Operative, Security Protocols, Fabrication Specialist, Equipment Technician
Equal against: Fire Team
Weak against: Physicist, Analyst

Engineering Kit - Equipment Technician
Strong against: Security Protocols
Equal against: Operative, Fire Team, Enemy Neutralization, Medic, Fabrication Specialist
Weak against: Analyst, Physicist

Engineering Kit - Fabrication Specialist
Strong against: *
Equal against: Security Protocols, Equipment Technician
Weak against: Fire Team, Enemy Neutralization, Physicist, Analyst, Operative, Medic
(*Fabrication Specialists rely on spawned items to deal damage/heal. These items are rather effective at killing enemies and healing teammates. However, the engineer himself is actually very weak if he strays away from his fabrications.)

If you'd like, I can also go over the pros and cons of each weapon type on the ground. Not everyone loads up on pulsewave weapons and sniper rifles for oneshots, there's a lot more to Ground PvP than you may realize.

janetza

voporak wrote: »

Tell that to my Lunge III when it critted on someone.

If it has crited on a nibcake than yes, I can do it too. Won't work if it is good player.

majortiraomega is pro, listen to what she says.

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janetza

Check this thread:
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=859781

majortiraomega

taut0u wrote: »

If it has crited on a nibcake than yes, I can do it too. Won't work if it is good player.

Well, there is one way to get lunge to oneshot people. Stack 3 very rare security duty officers (bonus critical damage with lunge), play a Klingon Faction Klingon. Take Lucky, Aggressive, Physical Strength, Covert, Acute Senses, and Creative for traits. Slot on the Klingon Intelligence Armor from the mission "Alpha" or Fleet Advanced Recoil Compensating Armor Mk XII [CritD] (both make you very squishy). Now, lunge at anyone with an expose marker after using Ambush + Battle Strategies + Strike Team, don't wait for target optics, it just gives them time to use buffs capable of blocking the lunge (Adrenaline boost, Distortion field, vascular regenerator, nanite health monitor, Motion accelerator). The lunge will one hit kill most of the time. Now if you are fighting a medic, good luck hitting an expose. You are much more likely to land flat on a vascular regenerator, followed swiftly by a neural neutralizer + tricorder scan. Without that expose you will one hit kill about 1 in every 10 attempts, 8 out of those 10 the other player will react before you can get away. If you kill an engineer enough with the super lunge, he will probably pull out the Shattering Harmonics set. In that case, your cloaking days are numbered and you'd might as well go back to fire team.

majortiraomega

deokkent wrote: »

I'm still in doubt, but I'm a little intrigued. Anybody got some premade pvp ground action linkz for the pvp n00b?

I tried ground pvp before, realized I suck so bad, got scared away and never went back. I have enough problems trying to get space pvp lol.

I don't think there are any recent recorded PvP matches out there right now. The last time I looked, the most recent video on youtube was from Season 4. If you are interested in trying ground PvP again, you are welcome to contact me ingame via mail or PM. My @handle is the same ingame as it is here on the forums. I've been teaming with and making suggestions to some of the newer players in the queues as of late. I would be happy to do the same with you. In some ways, Ground PvP is a lot easier than Space PvP. Counting your weapon attacks, you have a total of 18 buttons to press. Of those buttons, you really only use 7-10 of them frequently. Whereas with space, you have around 30 different abilities to activate.

wdoc

Ground pvp can be fun it does take teamwork. If you want to hope on our mumble and do some runs with us..hit me up @wdocduck

mcduffie369

wdoc wrote: »

Ground pvp can be fun it does take teamwork. If you want to hope on our mumble and do some runs with us..hit me up @wdocduck

Where is the fun in steam rolling a group of pugs with a premade or engaging in a 40 minute grudge match with another premade, which dose not happen much in ground due to most of the ground pvp fleets being "allied" because they would rather band together to avoid fighting each other in favor of rolling on pugs... There is even a private chat channel that link these fleets to ensure this takes place. How many ground pvp fleets are there? It is disturbing to know that the majority of them are working together to crush the moral of the pugs in a despicable 'in crowd' scenario. Either you are in the premade or you are under it. Our pvp has some deep seeded problems, and one of the biggest problems is the pvp community itself.

majortiraomega

mcduffie369 wrote: »

Where is the fun in steam rolling a group of pugs with a premade or engaging in a 40 minute grudge match with another premade, which dose not happen much in ground due to most of the ground pvp fleets being "allied" because they would rather band together to avoid fighting each other in favor of rolling on pugs... There is even a private chat channel that link these fleets to ensure this takes place. How many ground pvp fleets are there? It is disturbing to know that the majority of them are working together to crush the moral of the pugs in a despicable 'in crowd' scenario. Either you are in the premade or you are under it. Our pvp has some deep seeded problems, and one of the biggest problems is the pvp community itself.

There are several ground PvP fleets at the moment. -FS-, Federation Emergency Services, Hammer Squadron, ACME, Tip of the Spear, 1st Starfleet Germany, Explorer's Fury, Klingon Imperial Guard (KDF fleet)/Terran Assault Division (FED version), and once upon a time Federation Defense Force also went ground.

Of those fleets, Federation Emergency Services and Hammer Squadron are "allied", running joint premades in the queues. I've heard a lot about some Otha ground daily war between Klingon Imperial Guard and Federation Emergency Services/Hammer Squadron that's taking place for some reason. At least that keeps FES/Hammer out of the queues, they always vanish when us pugs manage to get organized and beat them in a single game.

As for the other fleets, 1st Starfleet Germany usually runs a few premades every day. It's fairly enjoyable to fight if the team gets at least two other ground PvP regulars. -FS- typically throws together premades on the weekends in order to help the PUGs push FES/Hammer out of the queues. After losing a match or two to a -FS- premade, those of us that PUG usually don't need to worry about FES/Hammer premades anymore, as they tend to wait out -FS- before reentering the queues. I've seen Klingon Imperial Guard/Terran Assault Division run a few three man teams recently, but nothing major as far as I can tell. Explorer's Fury, ACME, and Tip of the Spear usually queue up solo, or they run in three mans. I haven't seen Federation Defense Force queue in months.

webdeath

majortiraomega,

How does your rating work for the Borg Medical Analysist (I think that is it's name, not in game to confirm)? The one that Sacrifices the AOE heal for the Cone shield Damage.

tron4eternity

Ya know if the ground community can get over their egos there can very easily be a tyler durden type channel for ground pvp. Match teams based on skill as well as gear and rep level which we all know is even more important in ground pvp. I would think making forced balanced teams alone would get some newbies into ground pvp just knowing they will get a match that will be a good fight they can grow and learn with. And i don't consider the fes owned group pvp channel that bans fs and select other players to be the proper venue for such a thing before you ask!

Someone like tira should start it up and allow all ground pvpers newbs and alike to join just like tyler durden. This may take longer to get going as compared to tyler durden but I think in a few good months we can have a set of enough players to get some balanced matches going on consistently. The main difference between the space and ground version of this channel are gonna have to be gear and rep level. Example we can't have a team like this playing so much.

4 fully geared and repped up players and 1 newbie va with no gear vs the same exact type of team for one simple reason. Those players will just be farm bait. Of course with such a channel matches can be 3 on 3 or whatever is needed since the private q's would be used!