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Ship Line-Up Revamp
saekiith
Member Posts: 534 Arc User
Greetings and good evening!
As I've finally decided to make this thread, I want to come right out of the hole...
I would like to see a complete Revamp of the current Ship Line-Up.
What do I mean with this?
Simple, I am sick and tired to see all those Ships from way, way before... let's say 2370... too regularly or just lame rehashes of them.
Replicas/Rehashes or not, I think these Ships should NOT have a place in the 25th Century.
I am well aware that some of these Ships are Star Trek Icons and Game Sellers but what good is it when we're supposedly in 2409, 30 Years after Nemesis and still see Mirandas, Excelsiors, Constitutions (I bet that one gets me some fire
) and all?
Don't get me wrong, I don't want to "steal" these Ships from those that already bought them, I propose that they simply shouldn't be available for purchase (Ingame or C-Store) anymore.
Which Ships should get send to the Mothball Fleets you might ask... That one is easy!
At first ANY and ALL Ships that are older than 100 Years AND their Variants...
Even now in times of War they would be too old to get used like they were in the Dominion War (and most likely most of them were destroyed in the latter) so just gut them and throw them away.
Of course that would mean the current Line-Up has to be modified and the easiest is to move everything down one tier (Like Current Tier 2 Ships would be the new Starter Ships etc.).
The Missing Ships (like the Engineering Tier 2) and the new "empty" Tier 5 would of course have to be replaced completely, most preferably with complete new designs.
Which is leading now to the second part...
Any Ship from before 2370 should be moved down even more, Ships like the Galaxy, Nebula or Cheyenne, they're old, new Tech has way surpassed them, new Ships have taken their places.
I would guess that would have been just the prelude to my Main Point...
I want to see more NEW Ships... Not a rehash, not just a kitbash and no Refits...
NEW Ships, Original and 25th Century Designs!
And I am currently unaware if those with Gold get the 25th Century Skin for all Ships or not...
Regardless of the answer, I would like to have it for all the remaining (after the changes and thinning) Old Ships, even if it would be a Zen-Store Account Unlock.
At large, all this could be summarized simply as, Cryptic... Please Stick to the Storyline and Setting you, yourself set up
Again, I don't want to take any Ships away from those that already have them, Cryptic just need to set them too "Non-Purchaseable" so that over time there will be less and less Oldies...
Please remain calm and considerate, think before you write and be nice to one another
A good night to everyone!
As I've finally decided to make this thread, I want to come right out of the hole...
I would like to see a complete Revamp of the current Ship Line-Up.
What do I mean with this?
Simple, I am sick and tired to see all those Ships from way, way before... let's say 2370... too regularly or just lame rehashes of them.
Replicas/Rehashes or not, I think these Ships should NOT have a place in the 25th Century.
I am well aware that some of these Ships are Star Trek Icons and Game Sellers but what good is it when we're supposedly in 2409, 30 Years after Nemesis and still see Mirandas, Excelsiors, Constitutions (I bet that one gets me some fire
) and all?Don't get me wrong, I don't want to "steal" these Ships from those that already bought them, I propose that they simply shouldn't be available for purchase (Ingame or C-Store) anymore.
Which Ships should get send to the Mothball Fleets you might ask... That one is easy!
At first ANY and ALL Ships that are older than 100 Years AND their Variants...
Even now in times of War they would be too old to get used like they were in the Dominion War (and most likely most of them were destroyed in the latter) so just gut them and throw them away.
Of course that would mean the current Line-Up has to be modified and the easiest is to move everything down one tier (Like Current Tier 2 Ships would be the new Starter Ships etc.).
The Missing Ships (like the Engineering Tier 2) and the new "empty" Tier 5 would of course have to be replaced completely, most preferably with complete new designs.
Which is leading now to the second part...
Any Ship from before 2370 should be moved down even more, Ships like the Galaxy, Nebula or Cheyenne, they're old, new Tech has way surpassed them, new Ships have taken their places.
I would guess that would have been just the prelude to my Main Point...
I want to see more NEW Ships... Not a rehash, not just a kitbash and no Refits...
NEW Ships, Original and 25th Century Designs!
And I am currently unaware if those with Gold get the 25th Century Skin for all Ships or not...
Regardless of the answer, I would like to have it for all the remaining (after the changes and thinning) Old Ships, even if it would be a Zen-Store Account Unlock.
At large, all this could be summarized simply as, Cryptic... Please Stick to the Storyline and Setting you, yourself set up
Again, I don't want to take any Ships away from those that already have them, Cryptic just need to set them too "Non-Purchaseable" so that over time there will be less and less Oldies...
Please remain calm and considerate, think before you write and be nice to one another
A good night to everyone!
Selor Andaram Ephelion Kiith
Post edited by saekiith on
0
Comments
I'd think to remove them though, alongside the Excelsior, Cheyenne, Ambassador, B'rel, K't'inga (at least as Tier #5/Fleet Ships). The Galaxy, Nebula and Vor'cha should remain as they seemed to partially be the workforce of the last century. You can't be taking the Deridex away from people either. Hell No!
i don't think anyone would be to choked up over losing the commander variant of the dederdix :-P that thing is an abomanation :-P
fleet version is awesome though :-P
Starfleet, the Romulan Republic and the Klingon Empire aren't going to just decommission ships because they're old. Ships can be upgraded and retrofitted with newer tech instead of just being used for salvage.
The Advanced Heavy Cruiser Retrofit is a perfect example of this. The ship is a solid design and can perform as well as any other high rank vessel. Starfleet still uses them with good reason. This is why newer hull textures work with the older ship models. You can have a brand new Miranda that is the same design as the ships built 100 years ago, just modern upgrades under the hood.
Ships don't expire.
Well... Yes and No...
Yes, they've been "commissioned" fairly recently...
No, they are just a lame Rehash of the Constitution...
Again, I would like Less Oldies and Less Rehashes and Refits of nearly 180 Year old Ships.
@Gemetzel
Ships can be updated only so far until they have to be redesigned because newer Tech has different demands that will be too much for older Frames...
Oh... My... GAWD, Becky! That dress is SOOOOO last week :eek: ... aren't you just DIEING of embarrassment
:P
Galleys were used successfully for 2500 years+, ships of the line served for centuries between the 17th and 19th century, up until steam propelled vessels made them obsolete.
Trek starships could be comparable to sailing ships: Reliable technology and designs, used for centuries. Ever since the NX-01 every Enterprise was based upon the same technology: Matter/Antimatter core, impulse and warp propulsion. Lacking a technological revolution (like steam power ending the age of sailing ships), it is absolute reasonable to have century old ship designs challenging their successors.
The Super Herc is loaded with modern systems while still using the tried and true reliable airframe.
And then we of course have the combat capable AC-130 gunships which still see combat action on a regular basis today.
Just because a hull design is old does not automatically make it bad or obsolete.
And with something as a starship it pretty much purely comes down to internal volume.
Not necessarily. Let me draw on an example from a movie, Master and Commander. In that movie, the captain comments on the design of the French privateer, stating 'that's the future. What a fascinating modern age we live in'. It has a hull of solid oak that is also practical and swift-moving, so it's capable of taking far more punishment than the hull of the Surprise, which is a 30 year old ship that doesn't feature the latest innovations.
So, even amongst sailing ships, various technological innovations come into play. You certainly wouldn't want to take an English vessel from the 1580's up against a vessel designed and built in the 1680's. That's 100 years of innovations and improvements made to fundamental ship design and construction, improvements that the older ship wouldn't have unless it were completely taken apart and rebuilt, thus no longer actually being that older ship.
I'm not american...
There you made a slight error... you're talking of Shiptypes and not Classes...
And I dare you to think about it... would one of the first Sailboats be really a match for "modern" sailboats? In Speed, Weaponry, Comfort?
No... they were replaced with better, bigger, sleeker Successors... advancements in technology demanded that the shipwrights of old made new Ships, sure same prinicple but different Ships altogether.
That's the same problem now... advancements in technology demand that there be newer classes of Ships replacing the old ones, yet they still run on most of the same principles, while Quantum Slipstream Drives and Transwarp Engines would demand changes to the ships structure (Voyager couldn't fly much with the QSD without help or endangering the ship for example until the Writers said "TRIBBLE it! We didn't stick with the Lost in Space Stuff before so why limit us now?").
To stick with the Sailboat example... you wouldn't be able to pack 19th Century cannons onto the Santa Maria without risking serious damage either just from transporting or firing them.
Or have a race between a 19th C Vessel and the S.M..
You would need to make extensive changes to the internal structure if even possible and for what? Just to be able to have a Ship with a certain nostalgic look?
Look at the Retro Ford Mustang, Chevy Camero, and Dodge Charger and Challenger. Same old looks, but more styled to modern with new stuff.
Lastly, this is a game. Where they are trying to keep all the fan base happy in a way. So they are allowing old and new ships to be used.
USS Casinghead NCC 92047 launched 2350
Fleet Admiral Stowe - Dominion War Vet.
If your criteria for lame rehash is saucer section connected by a neck to an engineering section connected by pylons to warp nacelles then every single ship in Star Fleet will have to go. How 'bout playing a nice game of Eve Online, where all the ships look hideous? That should keep you happy for a very long time.
Santa Maria was build ~1480, that's more than thrice the timeframe of your initial statement. Staying with the 100 years of the OP to deem an outdated design, ships of the line are an example of this premise not holding true. Seventy-fours as ship class were in service for over a century, 'ship of the line' as design guideline covers over two centuries of heavy warship production. Technological advancement? Adapted to be used within the reliable and tested naval structure.
Having e.g. Excelsior class / design based ships around for centuries is therefore reasonable.
At some point old designs become obsolete, however so far there are no such technologies around to invalidate established design standards. Both Transwarp and Slipstream are already established ingame and in canon to be compatible with the current/old design standards.
I was going with your Sailboat Example and how long they were used...
But I can see were I should have been more clear...
They didn't just took a Ship like the Santa Maria and simply replaced all wood and Nails and slapped new Sails on it when they discovered better fabrics, metalworks, wood polishings and hydrodynamics...
No, they build a completely new and different ship which had nothing in common with the old besides having sails and swim in the water and being longer than they're wide...
And to get back to Star Trek... for example, you cannot slap a new Warp drive onto the Spaceframe of the Miranda Class, no matter if it is a completely new Ship or just a refit...
The Ship was not designed for the Speeds and Stress of the newer Warp Technology, severely limiting its use or downright making it impossible to use at all.
All prevailent QSD and Transwarp is a completely different Topic that is getting on my nerves but lets just stick to the basics.
The ONE and ONLY Reason for these Old Ships to be there is nothing more but the simple thought of "Hey... we need to attract players and these ships were on the show, lets slap 'em into the game!".
And I can understand that some people, especially those that have just a... tangent interest in Star Trek want to fly "The Enterprise" but it simply does not make any sense besides the familiarity of these Ships that they are here or do you see the Niagara Class or the Freedom Class somewhere? What about the Springfield? The New Orleans?
All Canon TNG Designs which would suit the roles far better if you don't want new ships...
So your sick of seeing some actual STAR TREK ships in a STAR TREK game because they are old?
Oh yes lets remove actual STAR TREK ships from the C-Store giving new people less STAR TREK in a STAR TREK game thus giving them less reason to play a STAR TREK game. Worst idea ever.
I say add more STAR TREK ships that are missing. We need more STAR TREK in a STAR TREK game not less. I don't care how old it is if it was in a STAR TREK episode/movie add it to the game in some way. As a playable ship or a NPC ship whatever I don't care I want MORE STAR TREK.
Add new outfits and weapons that had been in a STAR TREK movie/episode. Add more STAR TREK stuff into STAR TREK online.
To reinforce this, the Excelsior class Starship was produced from 2287~2346 with an estimated "Hull Life" of 100 years. It would have reached that mark in 2387. So at 2409 it's only exceeded it's minimum expected hull life by 22 years. And expected to be completely phased out by 2446.
Despite the constant outcries about age and usefulness almost always headed using the Excelsior as an example I]when not the ToS Constitution[/I, 22 years isn't that big of a leap.
The Ambassador has even eaten some flack in the exact same regard. But, it was in production from 2330~2357 with an estimated hull life of 125 years. So it won't even reach it's minimum expected life until 2455. And be expected to be completely phased out by 2482.
I still hold that Cryptic biggest mistake was the starting year they chose for Star Trek Online. Exactly because of this issue. I would comfortably say that most playing of moderate age are playing because they want to play the Star Trek they know. What they watched. What they read. And being put in a place where Cryptic is nearly pulling everything out of their butt as they go in terms of ship design, technology, and just plain time frame is a bit alienating.
And then you have their opposite. Those that haven't really seen or read much about it or only moderately followed the franchise. Even if they know the canon and soft-canon facts or not. They particularly don't care much about the details and just assume that if it's from old Star Trek [IE predating JJ's Romulus balloon pop to launch a reboot] it doesn't belong in 2409 Star Trek."It belongs in a museum".
It really is a shame...
I wonder if it would have been any different if Cryptic had gotten Okuda and company to advise on 'new ship designs' so they were continuing in the expected design progression we've grown used to during the TNG~VOY era instead of jumping from that to JJ-esque ships that they've been coming up with on their own since day one.
Let's look at this logically.
1. We have holographic projection capabilities (that's a given and cannot be overlooked in any argument pertaining to the viability and usefulness of old designs).
2. In "Night of the Comet," my T5, up-to-date vessel can be made to look exactly like a D7, through this technology (that's also a given and cannot be overlooked).
3. The fact that I could run this holographic projection of a D7 skin indefinitely as long as I didn't finish the mission or warp out, with no apparent drain on my ship's power is also a given and again, cannot be overlooked.
Therefore, if anything, we should logically be able to use the same technology to make our ships look like anything we want (including ships from other factions, but sadly, that's not likely to be approved by Cryptic, Star Trek III and other examples of the use of actual enemy vessels notwithstanding).
There is no logical justification for saying we can't have up-to-date, T5 ships that look like T'Liss Warbirds, D7 Cruisers, and Constitution class vessels. On the contrary, I've just provided a more than sufficient refutation of that contention.
TOS will always be THE Classic Trek, and its ships will always be iconic. For Cryptic to deny players who love these ships the right/ability to fly them (or at least something that is indistinguishable from them) would not make economic sense. The fans want these ships, and we're willing to pay for them. If you don't want one, don't buy one. If our flying them bothers you so much, may I suggest some Valerian Tea?
I'll just redirect to my previous post on C-130's since everyone clearly missed that. :rolleyes:
Or maybe i should just summarize.
AC-130J: 60 year old design, filled to the brim with 21st century tech, tactical and defensive systems, avionics and propulsion.
Its also known by some as the "worlds deadliest aircraft" and is after nearly 60 years still the best at what it does.
No...
I am proposing adherence to the actual Storyline and more Logic in Ship Progression...
That is indeed the Problem but I am getting to it after the next quote
Holographic Technology...
Yes, of course... spend a considerable amount of Energy to have the appearance of 100+ Year old Ships... absolutely logical and makes total sense yepp!
Yes TOS is Trek... yes, but it does not make any sense besides $$$ to be in this very game besides some special missions.
Yes Cryptic or rather CBS should have hired the Okudas to aid them in Ship Design (and for that matter UI...) to keep STO up-to-date and not a just a potpourri of everything that one time or another was in Star Trek because of $$$.
If I want to see/fly/use TOS Ships, I play a game or a modded version of one with TOS Setting...
If I want to see/fly/use Lost Era Ships, I play a game or a modded version of one with Lost Era Setting...
This Game is set AFTER TNG... and I want to see/fly/use appropriate Ship Classes...
And for that matter it can't be that an Old Excelsior is absolutely outperforming my DSSV and Vesta... and I dare say that it even outperforms the Odyssey...
Ships like the Galaxy class are only one generation behind state of the art, which means they would likely only have one or two refits in this period. Treat a Galaxy, Vor'cha or Sovereign flying in 2409 like the Enterprise-A in 2280 - not exactly state of the art anymore, but refitted with modern tech and nearly equal to the newer designs.
The current progression as-is demonstrates this well - Mirandas are the weakest ships in game, then constitutions, then Excelsiors and Ambassadors, then Galaxies, etc. The normal tiered ships represent the performance of the original designs. The 100 year old ships are rightly outclassed. However, the fleet ships represent completely new vessels, built with the newest technology and materials from the keel up.
Basically, your fleet excelsior is a ship built to look like an Excelsior, but using the same systems and components as the Enterprise-F. The myriad of ship shapes around with nearly equal performance indicates that the shape of the hull does not matter so much, as long as the systems and materials are matched.
I for one am happy that I can fly iconic ships while still being competitive with the new kitbashes floating around. It gives people more options without significantly disrupting game mechanics.
Simply a horrible idea.
How many people do you think would keep playing and how many new players would stay, if none of the ships from the series, movies or even books were somewhat competative at max level?
People play this game because they want to fly the iconic ships they saw on the show. I'd bet if Cryptic were allowed to do so, we would see it happen the other way around: have T5 versions of the low-tier ships that CBS doens't allow them to have and that people are asking for with a new thread every day for the past couple of years...
This is a GAME! And people like to play this game using their favorite ships from the shows, my self included. If you try and take our favorite ships, your going to have a flame-war on your hands which no one will benefit from. So how about we leave the ships as they are and worry about getting the Dev's to work on giving us more "new" ships.
[/SIGPIC]
If I wanted to play a space MMO with ships I'm not as familiar with, that I didn't grow up on, I'd go play Battlestar Galactica.
^Words that every player should keep in mind, especially whenever there's a problem with the game...
I agree with this, even though myself I don't like seeing the older ships. But im not about to take something away from those who like those older class of ships. I say let people play what they want.
Re-read number 3 in my post, please:
"3. The fact that I could run this holographic projection of a D7 skin indefinitely as long as I didn't finish the mission or warp out, with no apparent drain on my ship's power is also a given and again, cannot be overlooked."
We use photonic technology to "summon" 2-3 holographic allied vessels -- which have functioning weapons. There is no noticeable drain on energy when they are projected, although that's probably what some would argue in support of the limited duration of Photonic Fleet. However, the truth in terms of game mechanics is that they don't stick around too long because the "summoning" is a skill-based ability.
You've been shown by others that the view of vessels in 2409 as obsolete is itself not only based on assumption without warrant (note the posts on the C130 and B-52, for example), but also anachronistic thinking. 100 years later, better material is available and can be used in place of older material for construction. Technology can be updated rather easily by upgrading to new projectiles, using new beam arrays, consoles, deflector dishes, shield generators, etc.
If a design works, it makes no "sense" to scrap it.
This game is pure fanservice, nothing more. Integrity of canon went out the window pretty much immediately, so limiting peoples' ship choices is just being needlessly restrictive.
At this point, I think people should just be allowed to fly whatever ship they want. The game doesn't care, why should I?
Also,
Isn't fashion more of a European stereotype? like Italian? Seems like you're reaching at straws just to hate on the U.S. here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6Kod0F-MD0
Federation warship USS Defiant vs. a old Excelsior Class (refitted) USS Lakota
Both those ships are in game at tier 5. Just because a ship is of older design does not mean it does not belong alongside newer ships. Story wise their is no problem.