My point is that the company could have made more money if the odds were better. Let's use your numbers.
Is it more profitable for Cryptic to get $100 dollars from 50,000 people or $35 dollars from 200,000 people?
And with better odds people would be willing to keep buying to get ships for different characters.
Better yet, Cryptic could get $1.25 from 200,000,000 people by making the odds 100%.
Make it so!
...
Do you appreciate how ridiculous making up sales numbers are now?
"Participation in PVP-related activities is so low on an hourly, daily, weekly, and monthly basis that we could in fact just completely take it out of STO and it would not impact the overall number of people [who] log in to the game and play in any significant way." -Gozer, Cryptic PvP Dev
And that's what I think should be done with the attack ship pets. For those just interested in the pets there should be an option to get them without worrying about getting the Attack ship.
I wouldn't spend money trying to get the attack ship myself, but I would buy the pets for my carrier.
But that would reduce people going for the high stakes, besides so many people have came out here to say they suck so why would anyone even want them? If they suck they stop complaining and problem solved?
Can't have a honest conversation because of a white knight with power
I own the JHDN and the JHAS, I got them both for free, well not the DN...I had to pay 10 mill for it from selling something else.
I think it's funny how so many people who don't own it says the JHAS pet sucks, incase you didn't notice every frigate except the Mesh Weaver and Drone ships have cannons...so every Frigate sucks then? So the BoP is a useless piece of junk eh? The Fer'jai sucks and it debuff and stun potential suck because it has cannons?
As much as you try to bash it you might be ignoring the fact it has a BA and a Turret, both of which are great arcs (Don't know, are beams are 360 on the frigates?)
So that means the only frigate with beams you can't obtain without money is the Mesh Weavers...which are chocked full of DBB's...which also suffer from a sub par arc thanks to AI.
So that means all frigates suck because of arcs and all fighters suck because they're squishy...so then why do you care at all since you must think all carriers suck?
your a idiot, subpar does not mean sucks, just less then par, or less then optimal. and no, I fly several carriers, And in general even the cannon frigs end up out preforming the fighters, and yes mesh weavers are currently one of the overall top performers, largely because of the powers they have, but also because they arnt fighting a very narrow fire arc on one weapon, one which one of their powers applies too.
Its a simple fact that until the AI flys better attack patterns, aka more time on target for weapons like cannons, that cannon pets will be sub par, less then optiomal.
stop trying to put more meaning into my words then there was.
your a idiot, subpar does not mean sucks, just less then par, or less then optimal. and no, I fly several carriers, And in general even the cannon frigs end up out preforming the fighters, and yes mesh weavers are currently one of the overall top performers, largely because of the powers they have, but also because they arnt fighting a very narrow fire arc on one weapon, one which one of their powers applies too.
Its a simple fact that until the AI flys better attack patterns, aka more time on target for weapons like cannons, that cannon pets will be sub par, less then optiomal.
stop trying to put more meaning into my words then there was.
Umm your a idiot? Don't you mean you're a idiot?
Anyways back to the discussion...if the Mesh Weavers are so great why not just fly a Recluse? Why complain about a frigate that costs so much and isn't the best and just leave it be?
If they're not the absolute best frigate then why even care about them? Sounds like it's just another one of those "it's not fair they have them and I don't so I want them for free!" deal.
Can't have a honest conversation because of a white knight with power
I understand the appeal of the thrill of opening a lockbox, so Cryptic would be foolish to make the odds 100%. But I wouldn't mind seeing odds between 1-3%.
While I agree with you... the fact is a TON of people will try their hand at the current odds... this is what built Casino's, turned gambling into a multi-billion dollar industry.
I want you to imagine, how many times you see that little announcement that so and so got the ship... and realize how many boxes they open... then realize the number of people who buy boxes that get nothing...
They make a killing off of the boxes as it exists today (much more than a C Store Ship)... only reason to change would be if the boxes keys stopped selling... and that shows no sign of slowing... I grind my daily dilithium, convert to zen, buy key, sell key... sell for 1 EC short of the lowest price... I generally don't get the exchange window closed before the money is in the bank.
There are those who literally just buy the keys to sell, earn the EC to buy the top price... and do it in a day, at a MUCH lower cost then some have dumped into opening the boxes.
If anything, they should be required to post Gambling Addiction warnings with the lockboxes... people dump insane amounts of money into this game.
Anyways back to the discussion...if the Mesh Weavers are so great why not just fly a Recluse? Why complain about a frigate that costs so much and isn't the best and just leave it be?
If they're not the absolute best frigate then why even care about them? Sounds like it's just another one of those "it's not fair they have them and I don't so I want them for free!" deal.
there is a difference between grammar, punctuation, and intelligence, but that's a separate argument.
And I do, I have a recluse on my fed engi, a Karfi on my Klink engi, a Jem Dread on my Klink Tac, and a atrox and Vo put up right now.
And no, I would like them, yes, for my dread, but my argument is they never should have had the bug as a requirement, it was stupid from the start, however I tend to accept that they wont change it, why, not because they make money off it, but because people have already put money into it, stupid amounts in some rare cases. And why would I like them, because I hold out hope that they will rework the AI, or the pets, to improve the on target time of those weapon systems.
Its a publicity thing, they get bad press from it being tied to the bug as a requirement, but its mostly grumbling, if they changed it to the way other frig pets are, the way it should have been from the start, people will cry bloody murder, why, because they will feel out the cash they spent.
And what gets more attention "They screwed up and attached this pet to a over priced ship"
or
"Cryptic changed this ship to only costing dilithium after I spent 300-500 bucks to get it cash, and wont refund me"
the second one will, the first one people look at and assume someone wants something for nothing, when in fact I just want it to be like the other frigs, and not require you to buy two separate ships. the second they look at and think, hey their TRIBBLE people out of money by making things free later that were paid for.
They wont change it, some of us accept that, but it doesn't mean we cant voice our disapproval to insure it doesn't happen again.
This is less about wanting something for free then it is wanting it to have worked like all the preceding cases of it. They changed from the norm, so there is going to be backlash, that's what happens. If they changed it now there would be backlash, but the point remains that this was not a good change from the norm.
The bug is a escort, the pet tied to it is for a carrier, the number of people that fly both on the same char is lower then the number that fly one or the other. You have to unbox the ship to get the pet. So again, many people end up with a ship slot holding a JHAS they will never fly, just to get pets for their Dreadnought, and essentially pay to have that slot tied up. That's really the kick to it all, if you use the JHAS great, but if you don't, or wont, or have zero interest in escorts, I just sits there and fills up space to get something that should have been part of the carrier to start with not part of the escort.
that's another way to look at it, why is something for a carrier exclusively, tied to a escort. I mean we arnt talking about part of a universal console set here, which can be put on any of the ships involved with getting the consoles, were talking about a pet that only goes on the carrier.
I've looked at getting it, crunched the numbers, it would take around 300 bucks in keys, more or less depending on luck out of a pack special. In game they bounce between 300-500 mill, which is a lot to build up. Its just my opinion to be fair, but when you look at the cost involved, the problem with cannons pets currently, and possibly tying up a ship slot on something you arnt going to touch. It just doesn't seem worth it. If you planned to fly the JHAS sure, you'll probably sink about a 3rd of the cost into doffs too, and it will likely be all you fly.
I'm also of the mind that some of these objections arnt from people who paid for the ship for the pets already, but people who only fly the bug, and are under the impression that the pets being moved out from under it as a requirement some how cheapens what they fly, which is dumb but hey.
As I see it there's two slightly different things being discussed.
One is the attack ship itself.
The other is getting access to the attack ship fighters for the Carrier.
And I'm sincerely sorry but I just don't comprehend how letting players that want the carrier pets get them detracts from the "value" of the Attack ship itself. Those that want the attack ship are still going to want it, and will pay for it.
Simple. Right now, there are two overlapping sets of people who want the JHAS. Those that want it for itself, and those that want it for the carrier. If you make the carrier version more accessible, you reduce the number of people who want the JHAS, and thereby, lower the price and therefore the value.
"Participation in PVP-related activities is so low on an hourly, daily, weekly, and monthly basis that we could in fact just completely take it out of STO and it would not impact the overall number of people [who] log in to the game and play in any significant way." -Gozer, Cryptic PvP Dev
And I'm sincerely sorry but I just don't comprehend how letting players that want the carrier pets get them detracts from the "value" of the Attack ship itself. Those that want the attack ship are still going to want it, and will pay for it.
There are people who still want it for the carrier and still pay for it, if you make the pet free to everyone now, not only will you TRIBBLE people off who payed for it you'll also reduce its value in the market and you'll reduce the amount of people trying to win it.
Can't have a honest conversation because of a white knight with power
Since when has Cryptic/PWE ever been concerned about pissing people off? If they cared about boo-hoo crybabies they'd have never put limits on Emails, fixed the Tour the Galaxy, etc., etc., etc.
If it cuts into their funds I think they care.
Can't have a honest conversation because of a white knight with power
Since when has Cryptic/PWE ever been concerned about pissing people off? If they cared about boo-hoo crybabies they'd have never put limits on Emails, fixed the Tour the Galaxy, etc., etc., etc.
Cryptic did those things (ostensibly) for the health of the game. In other words, they're willing to TRIBBLE people off if they end up making more money. You want them to TRIBBLE people off and make less money, a lose-lose decision to be sure.
"Participation in PVP-related activities is so low on an hourly, daily, weekly, and monthly basis that we could in fact just completely take it out of STO and it would not impact the overall number of people [who] log in to the game and play in any significant way." -Gozer, Cryptic PvP Dev
Thank you for your useful contribution to this discussion.
"Participation in PVP-related activities is so low on an hourly, daily, weekly, and monthly basis that we could in fact just completely take it out of STO and it would not impact the overall number of people [who] log in to the game and play in any significant way." -Gozer, Cryptic PvP Dev
No I'm not. We're talking about supply and demand. You claimed the value of the JHAS will drop if people can get the pets separately. That means the number of available JHAS will become more rare and the exchange prices will increase for the people that want them because there will be less available.
You're still using magic hand-waving. You've decreased the demand for JHAS by introducing a cheap carrier version. Nothing has happened to the supply. If supply is constant and demand decreases, how does the JHAS become more rare?
One only has to look at the price increase of the Tufli Freighters to see that.
That's an interesting example of something completely unrelated.
What you're proposing is introducing a cheap merchant ship, and then saying that the price for Tuffli's would rise. Doesn't make sense.
The people you are claiming will be pissed off already have gotten their JHAS's. So what are they going to be pissed about? That they'll be able to sell their unopened JHAS's for more on the exchange? Oh how awful.
Predicated on the value rising, which won't happen.
"Participation in PVP-related activities is so low on an hourly, daily, weekly, and monthly basis that we could in fact just completely take it out of STO and it would not impact the overall number of people [who] log in to the game and play in any significant way." -Gozer, Cryptic PvP Dev
You're still using magic hand-waving. You've decreased the demand for JHAS by introducing a cheap carrier version. Nothing has happened to the supply. If supply is constant and demand decreases, how does the JHAS become more rare?
Predicated on the value rising, which won't happen.
What's he is saying is that since the price drops, the ones on the market will go down, be bought, and that less people will try to get them from packs since their worth less, which would result in less on the market and the prices going back up.
the supply is only as good as the events that give them out, and the stock piles people have, if those sell out, or people stop putting them up waiting for the prices to go up, the supply would go down, and thus the price up, so long as someone sitting on a bunch didn't push it back down.
but this would be preceeded by a price drop, if the carrier pet being detached from it even had that much effect, the ship sold for 300-500 before the pet was attached to owning it.
I got an attack ship and two suliban cell ships when they had that special on to open survivor packs and possibly get a Jem'hadar attack ship as part of the bonus. I sold one of the cell ships and bought a Tal Shiar Adapted destroyer to use as part of a fleet prize in contributing to fleet projects so everyone in the fleet has a chance to win the ship.
You are the one implying that the supply of JHAS will decrease if players have the option of buying carriers pets.
Oy.
Read. My. Post.
I said demand would decrease.
DEMAND.
DEMAND is NOT SUPPLY.
You're the one who's decided that supply will magically decrease.
"Participation in PVP-related activities is so low on an hourly, daily, weekly, and monthly basis that we could in fact just completely take it out of STO and it would not impact the overall number of people [who] log in to the game and play in any significant way." -Gozer, Cryptic PvP Dev
"Participation in PVP-related activities is so low on an hourly, daily, weekly, and monthly basis that we could in fact just completely take it out of STO and it would not impact the overall number of people [who] log in to the game and play in any significant way." -Gozer, Cryptic PvP Dev
As a very lucky owner of a JHDC with Elite JHAS hangar units, I still firmly believe that the 2 ship requirement for having the JHAS hangar is still excessive.
There is NO other hangar unit in the game, even among other "frigates" of similar or better power, that requires the possession of 2 ships.
The Stalker fighters only require the Atrox, and only usable on the Atrox.
The Orion Interceptors require having purchased the Dacoit FDC, and can be used on any KDF ship with a hangar.
The Fer'Jai Frigates are available only for the Kar'Fi and require no other ship.
The Elite BOPs only require possession of the Vo'Quv / Mirror Vo'Quv.
Other hangar units having prerequisite ships have only 1 ship requirement, and usually only available for the required ship (this usually the case for "frigates").
Yet the JHAS unit requires JHDC + JHAS ships to purchase.
"But the JHAS is a playable ship and should be required to have the hangar units!" - I figure that argument will be used by some idiots out there.
Well, to that I say, "The Elite BOPs do not require the player to possess any BOP ships at all, just the Vo'Quv / Mirror Vo'Quv." That is how the JHAS hangar units should have been from day 1.
Its not bad logic, ok, so if the price changes or not is debatable, I put that at the end, but apparently you didn't bother to read that far, you know the whole, if detaching the pet from the ship even affects the price.
the supply will change, if the ships arnt selling for what the people that have them want, they will post less of them, they will sit on what they have, until the price goes up, if it even drops to start with, that's supply changing, its not magic, its simple economics.
No one forces anyone to put the ship on sale, and the people that are rolling big bucks so to speak and play the market, and push the price back up by manipulating supply, aka buying what's low, and waiting to sell it high.
this happens to a degree already, the prices when they do a pack special tends to drop, down to around 300 mill, it then winds back up slowly to 500, I don't think I've seen it make it back to 600 yet. Part of that's going to be people buying them when their 300, thus taking them off the market, and out of the "supply" and then reposting them when the price goes back up to make a profit.
There is no magic handwavium here as you seem to imply, simply truth is there are only so many Boxed JHAS in the game right now, but those arnt all on sale at any given time, and anyone who wants to make any money off one wont sell low, they will take theirs off the market, if their smart, and wait. Thus there is a difference between the supply on the market, and the number on the server. You cant look at every single boxed one as supply, you have to only look at what's currently being sold, that's the supply, their could be 1000 of them sitting in banks, but if only 50 of them are on the market then the supply is 50, and these specials arnt constant, they do them, but there is typically a good deal of time between when they happen. So there is no outside supply line that keeps them on the market at a set rate.
Now if you somehow had a way of forcing people to always post their ships, and they had a way of always having more, then the supply wouldn't be limited, but truth is if the price dropped low enough people would just pull the ships they have up, sit on them, and choke supply down to the point were the price went back up to something they want to sell for. They would then sell a handful at a time, for the price they want.
Comments
Better yet, Cryptic could get $1.25 from 200,000,000 people by making the odds 100%.
Make it so!
...
Do you appreciate how ridiculous making up sales numbers are now?
But that would reduce people going for the high stakes, besides so many people have came out here to say they suck so why would anyone even want them? If they suck they stop complaining and problem solved?
your a idiot, subpar does not mean sucks, just less then par, or less then optimal. and no, I fly several carriers, And in general even the cannon frigs end up out preforming the fighters, and yes mesh weavers are currently one of the overall top performers, largely because of the powers they have, but also because they arnt fighting a very narrow fire arc on one weapon, one which one of their powers applies too.
Its a simple fact that until the AI flys better attack patterns, aka more time on target for weapons like cannons, that cannon pets will be sub par, less then optiomal.
stop trying to put more meaning into my words then there was.
Umm your a idiot? Don't you mean you're a idiot?
Anyways back to the discussion...if the Mesh Weavers are so great why not just fly a Recluse? Why complain about a frigate that costs so much and isn't the best and just leave it be?
If they're not the absolute best frigate then why even care about them? Sounds like it's just another one of those "it's not fair they have them and I don't so I want them for free!" deal.
While I agree with you... the fact is a TON of people will try their hand at the current odds... this is what built Casino's, turned gambling into a multi-billion dollar industry.
I want you to imagine, how many times you see that little announcement that so and so got the ship... and realize how many boxes they open... then realize the number of people who buy boxes that get nothing...
They make a killing off of the boxes as it exists today (much more than a C Store Ship)... only reason to change would be if the boxes keys stopped selling... and that shows no sign of slowing... I grind my daily dilithium, convert to zen, buy key, sell key... sell for 1 EC short of the lowest price... I generally don't get the exchange window closed before the money is in the bank.
There are those who literally just buy the keys to sell, earn the EC to buy the top price... and do it in a day, at a MUCH lower cost then some have dumped into opening the boxes.
If anything, they should be required to post Gambling Addiction warnings with the lockboxes... people dump insane amounts of money into this game.
Star Trek Online, Now with out the Trek....
there is a difference between grammar, punctuation, and intelligence, but that's a separate argument.
And I do, I have a recluse on my fed engi, a Karfi on my Klink engi, a Jem Dread on my Klink Tac, and a atrox and Vo put up right now.
And no, I would like them, yes, for my dread, but my argument is they never should have had the bug as a requirement, it was stupid from the start, however I tend to accept that they wont change it, why, not because they make money off it, but because people have already put money into it, stupid amounts in some rare cases. And why would I like them, because I hold out hope that they will rework the AI, or the pets, to improve the on target time of those weapon systems.
Its a publicity thing, they get bad press from it being tied to the bug as a requirement, but its mostly grumbling, if they changed it to the way other frig pets are, the way it should have been from the start, people will cry bloody murder, why, because they will feel out the cash they spent.
And what gets more attention "They screwed up and attached this pet to a over priced ship"
or
"Cryptic changed this ship to only costing dilithium after I spent 300-500 bucks to get it cash, and wont refund me"
the second one will, the first one people look at and assume someone wants something for nothing, when in fact I just want it to be like the other frigs, and not require you to buy two separate ships. the second they look at and think, hey their TRIBBLE people out of money by making things free later that were paid for.
They wont change it, some of us accept that, but it doesn't mean we cant voice our disapproval to insure it doesn't happen again.
This is less about wanting something for free then it is wanting it to have worked like all the preceding cases of it. They changed from the norm, so there is going to be backlash, that's what happens. If they changed it now there would be backlash, but the point remains that this was not a good change from the norm.
The bug is a escort, the pet tied to it is for a carrier, the number of people that fly both on the same char is lower then the number that fly one or the other. You have to unbox the ship to get the pet. So again, many people end up with a ship slot holding a JHAS they will never fly, just to get pets for their Dreadnought, and essentially pay to have that slot tied up. That's really the kick to it all, if you use the JHAS great, but if you don't, or wont, or have zero interest in escorts, I just sits there and fills up space to get something that should have been part of the carrier to start with not part of the escort.
that's another way to look at it, why is something for a carrier exclusively, tied to a escort. I mean we arnt talking about part of a universal console set here, which can be put on any of the ships involved with getting the consoles, were talking about a pet that only goes on the carrier.
I've looked at getting it, crunched the numbers, it would take around 300 bucks in keys, more or less depending on luck out of a pack special. In game they bounce between 300-500 mill, which is a lot to build up. Its just my opinion to be fair, but when you look at the cost involved, the problem with cannons pets currently, and possibly tying up a ship slot on something you arnt going to touch. It just doesn't seem worth it. If you planned to fly the JHAS sure, you'll probably sink about a 3rd of the cost into doffs too, and it will likely be all you fly.
I'm also of the mind that some of these objections arnt from people who paid for the ship for the pets already, but people who only fly the bug, and are under the impression that the pets being moved out from under it as a requirement some how cheapens what they fly, which is dumb but hey.
Simple. Right now, there are two overlapping sets of people who want the JHAS. Those that want it for itself, and those that want it for the carrier. If you make the carrier version more accessible, you reduce the number of people who want the JHAS, and thereby, lower the price and therefore the value.
There are people who still want it for the carrier and still pay for it, if you make the pet free to everyone now, not only will you TRIBBLE people off who payed for it you'll also reduce its value in the market and you'll reduce the amount of people trying to win it.
If it cuts into their funds I think they care.
Wait. How did the number of JHAS on the market go down when less people want them? You're doing some magic there that needs to be explained.
Cryptic did those things (ostensibly) for the health of the game. In other words, they're willing to TRIBBLE people off if they end up making more money. You want them to TRIBBLE people off and make less money, a lose-lose decision to be sure.
Thank you for your useful contribution to this discussion.
You're still using magic hand-waving. You've decreased the demand for JHAS by introducing a cheap carrier version. Nothing has happened to the supply. If supply is constant and demand decreases, how does the JHAS become more rare?
That's an interesting example of something completely unrelated.
What you're proposing is introducing a cheap merchant ship, and then saying that the price for Tuffli's would rise. Doesn't make sense.
Predicated on the value rising, which won't happen.
What's he is saying is that since the price drops, the ones on the market will go down, be bought, and that less people will try to get them from packs since their worth less, which would result in less on the market and the prices going back up.
the supply is only as good as the events that give them out, and the stock piles people have, if those sell out, or people stop putting them up waiting for the prices to go up, the supply would go down, and thus the price up, so long as someone sitting on a bunch didn't push it back down.
but this would be preceeded by a price drop, if the carrier pet being detached from it even had that much effect, the ship sold for 300-500 before the pet was attached to owning it.
He made that up! His first assumption is totally wrong, so everything that follows from it is meaningless.
Oy.
Read. My. Post.
I said demand would decrease.
DEMAND.
DEMAND is NOT SUPPLY.
You're the one who's decided that supply will magically decrease.
Apparently bad logic is contagious.
Explains a lot about the Internet...
There is NO other hangar unit in the game, even among other "frigates" of similar or better power, that requires the possession of 2 ships.
The Stalker fighters only require the Atrox, and only usable on the Atrox.
The Orion Interceptors require having purchased the Dacoit FDC, and can be used on any KDF ship with a hangar.
The Fer'Jai Frigates are available only for the Kar'Fi and require no other ship.
The Elite BOPs only require possession of the Vo'Quv / Mirror Vo'Quv.
Other hangar units having prerequisite ships have only 1 ship requirement, and usually only available for the required ship (this usually the case for "frigates").
Yet the JHAS unit requires JHDC + JHAS ships to purchase.
"But the JHAS is a playable ship and should be required to have the hangar units!" - I figure that argument will be used by some idiots out there.
Well, to that I say, "The Elite BOPs do not require the player to possess any BOP ships at all, just the Vo'Quv / Mirror Vo'Quv." That is how the JHAS hangar units should have been from day 1.
/endthread
Its not bad logic, ok, so if the price changes or not is debatable, I put that at the end, but apparently you didn't bother to read that far, you know the whole, if detaching the pet from the ship even affects the price.
the supply will change, if the ships arnt selling for what the people that have them want, they will post less of them, they will sit on what they have, until the price goes up, if it even drops to start with, that's supply changing, its not magic, its simple economics.
No one forces anyone to put the ship on sale, and the people that are rolling big bucks so to speak and play the market, and push the price back up by manipulating supply, aka buying what's low, and waiting to sell it high.
this happens to a degree already, the prices when they do a pack special tends to drop, down to around 300 mill, it then winds back up slowly to 500, I don't think I've seen it make it back to 600 yet. Part of that's going to be people buying them when their 300, thus taking them off the market, and out of the "supply" and then reposting them when the price goes back up to make a profit.
There is no magic handwavium here as you seem to imply, simply truth is there are only so many Boxed JHAS in the game right now, but those arnt all on sale at any given time, and anyone who wants to make any money off one wont sell low, they will take theirs off the market, if their smart, and wait. Thus there is a difference between the supply on the market, and the number on the server. You cant look at every single boxed one as supply, you have to only look at what's currently being sold, that's the supply, their could be 1000 of them sitting in banks, but if only 50 of them are on the market then the supply is 50, and these specials arnt constant, they do them, but there is typically a good deal of time between when they happen. So there is no outside supply line that keeps them on the market at a set rate.
Now if you somehow had a way of forcing people to always post their ships, and they had a way of always having more, then the supply wouldn't be limited, but truth is if the price dropped low enough people would just pull the ships they have up, sit on them, and choke supply down to the point were the price went back up to something they want to sell for. They would then sell a handful at a time, for the price they want.
I bought it for the hangar pets. So either I'm insane, or what you're saying isn't true.