Upgraded Cloaks for B'rel and Defiant

mosul33

First of all, this is not intended to be your monthly "Give to the Defiant a Battle Cloak" thread, but only 2 sugestions, in the light (and hope) of recent devs statements about giving more 2 pc bonuses like the Romulans have and also giving another look at KDF Raiders aka Birds of Prey. And also keeping in mind how much OP just the Romulans ships are, not even talking about their boffs. Just strictly ship wise. And not to forget that these 2 ships are supossed to be pure (as in non-rom) FED and KDF top raiders, since the Defiant wants to be as close as a fed ship could get to a BoP.
These upgrades are not intended as an "I win" button, but a much needed upgrade to keep them competitive with the romulan ships.

I'll be brief on the Defiant first, since way too many threads are allready about this topic. Its about adding a Battle Cloak as a 2 pc bonus to cloak console+quad cannons. Maybe a +5 Aux Power too, to match a bit the Rom ships. A copy/paste of the curent Rom plasma bonus, in phaser flavor, would be OP considering that the Fleet Defiant allready has enuf buff with its 5 tac consoles. And for what its worth, a battle cloak would be canon aswell, since i remember from the DS9 show, when the Dominion captured DS9, the Defiant, along with IKS Rotarran, escaped cloaking while under enemy fire, wich what is a battle cloak is all about.

Now on the B'rel. When it was introduced in-game, its Enhanced Battle Cloak was considered too OP, since it was actually doing what it was designed and intented, wich is to fire torps and mines while cloaked. After a short time it was adjusted/balanced on its current form thus not so much working as design or intended.
I am suggesting here to upgrade the Enhanced Battle Cloak from its old, outdated form of "decloak for 3 secs when fire" to a partially, "Cloaking Barrage efect/mechanic" form. Basicly to replace the curent mechanic with an "Enter in Cloaking Barrage mode" for torps/mines only, when firing. It may sound OP, but is not, considering Romulan ships OPness, how nearly wortless the torps are now and the fact that it would still be briefly visible for the attacked target, so actions to decloak it would still be possible. And also would work more towards working as intended, to truly fire torps/mines under cloak.

As for the implementation of these upgrades, i dont think it should be a problem since are suported by the game. For the Defiant, there are allready in-game skills/abilities that change upon equiping a console, like the Scimitar cloak with shields on or the upgraded slipstream from the Vesta's 2 pc console bonus. As for the B'rel, the Cloaking Barrage mechanics allready exists aswell, only is needed to be modifiend for torps/mines only, and integrated into the Enhanced Battle Cloak.

Thoughts?

wraithshadow13

To be honest, i Agree for the most part, though i do feel there are a few differences that i prefer.

First of which is that ALL cloak should be battle cloak, because you're right, and it IS canon. When i push the button, i turn invisible, regardless of what's going on. That's how it worked in the shows and movies, and that's how it should work ingame. I don't agree that it should only be due to a 2 piece bonus set though, but that's how the very basic cloak should be.

Secondly, i feel that they need to do more to make it balance better. The first proposal is to tie it into both your health as well as your power levels. All cloaking devices draw an insane amount of power, which is why only the scimitar was able to have shields while cloaked. If my power levels are too low, my cloak shouldn't be anywhere near as effective, or if my ship is too badly damaged, there should be that cool effect where the cloak is in flux. As for the Klingon Torp cloak, they shouldn't be exposed while firing torps or mines, but should suffer a much greater vulnerability when doing so. That way it's a viable option, but very "at your own risk". While in terms of Federation cloak, they should be limited to no more than one ship of each class, which would leave a fighter (which could be the Caitian one) a carrier (maybe, but i'd be okay to not), and a science vessel.

Third, i feel that each faction needs it's own version of the advanced cloak for the higher tier/fleet/set versions. It's canon as well. Get rid of battle cloak and just make basic cloak work like canon, but then take it one step further. These cloaks are decades old by now, and this is the future, so we should have technology to match.


Feds) Intangible Cloak: It can pass through anything, but will be more vulnerable to AOE effects as "subspace damage" from Sci abilities or certain torpedo after effects.

KDF) Battle cloak+: They can now fire beams as well, but will suffer from greater speed reduction as well will take much more damage when attacked. Being cloaked and firing weapons would be too great of a power drain from all the other systems, including structural integrity.

Rom) These guys already have the advanced cloak abilities from the set bonus, so they're good there.


As a side note, i've posted it before, but i would also like to see a Cloak Buoy added to a faction as well. It would work like a turret, but instead of firing, it places a 5km cloak bubble, which would be great for ambushes and minefields. The downside here is that anything in the bubble is cloaked, even enemies, it has little to no health so it goes boom very easily, but since it would require a very powerful energy source, it would have a really strong AOE explosion that would hurt friendlies as well. But this last one is just me tossing out a casual idea.

bitemepwe

I like the ideas on both vessels but could only give me support if the remaining KDF BoP line of vessels was given back some of what was taken from them in "balance" for them having Battle Cloaks to begin with in STO.

Be that an additional Universal slot that is Ensign or just simply better shield modifier or hull points.

kapla1755

mosul33 wrote: »

First of all, this is not intended to be your monthly "Give to the Defiant a Battle Cloak" thread, but only 2 sugestions, in the light (and hope) of recent devs statements about giving more 2 pc bonuses like the Romulans have and also giving another look at KDF Raiders aka Birds of Prey. And also keeping in mind how much OP just the Romulans ships are, not even talking about their boffs. Just strictly ship wise. And not to forget that these 2 ships are supossed to be pure (as in non-rom) FED and KDF top raiders, since the Defiant wants to be as close as a fed ship could get to a BoP.
These upgrades are not intended as an "I win" button, but a much needed upgrade to keep them competitive with the romulan ships.

I'll be brief on the Defiant first, since way too many threads are allready about this topic. Its about adding a Battle Cloak as a 2 pc bonus to cloak console+quad cannons. Maybe a +5 Aux Power too, to match a bit the Rom ships. A copy/paste of the curent Rom plasma bonus, in phaser flavor, would be OP considering that the Fleet Defiant allready has enuf buff with its 5 tac consoles. And for what its worth, a battle cloak would be canon aswell, since i remember from the DS9 show, when the Dominion captured DS9, the Defiant, along with IKS Rotarran, escaped cloaking while under enemy fire, wich what is a battle cloak is all about.

Now on the B'rel. When it was introduced in-game, its Enhanced Battle Cloak was considered too OP, since it was actually doing what it was designed and intented, wich is to fire torps and mines while cloaked. After a short time it was adjusted/balanced on its current form thus not so much working as design or intended.
I am suggesting here to upgrade the Enhanced Battle Cloak from its old, outdated form of "decloak for 3 secs when fire" to a partially, "Cloaking Barrage efect/mechanic" form. Basicly to replace the curent mechanic with an "Enter in Cloaking Barrage mode" for torps/mines only, when firing. It may sound OP, but is not, considering Romulan ships OPness, how nearly wortless the torps are now and the fact that it would still be briefly visible for the attacked target, so actions to decloak it would still be possible. And also would work more towards working as intended, to truly fire torps/mines under cloak.

As for the implementation of these upgrades, i dont think it should be a problem since are suported by the game. For the Defiant, there are allready in-game skills/abilities that change upon equiping a console, like the Scimitar cloak with shields on or the upgraded slipstream from the Vesta's 2 pc console bonus. As for the B'rel, the Cloaking Barrage mechanics allready exists aswell, only is needed to be modifiend for torps/mines only, and integrated into the Enhanced Battle Cloak.

Thoughts?

So under this proposal the Defiant gets at Battle Cloak with 5 Tac consoles and the B'rel gets something it can already do well?

I thought this wasn't a "this is not intended to be your monthly "Give to the Defiant a Battle Cloak" thread.?

wolfpacknz

I fly the Defiant and simply say NO to a battle cloak. Remember Defiant wasn't built with a cloaking device, it was loaned one from the Romulans. The Federation was supposed to have cloaking technology so we should be thankful they gave us the loaned cloak with Defiant as it is.

wraithshadow13

wolfpacknz wrote: »

I fly the Defiant and simply say NO to a battle cloak. Remember Defiant wasn't built with a cloaking device, it was loaned one from the Romulans. The Federation was supposed to have cloaking technology so we should be thankful they gave us the loaned cloak with Defiant as it is.

I have a Reman bridge officer, the full reman set, and a few romulan doffs.... By your logic, i would be able to use battle cloak because it's "on loan" from all the romulans on my ship.

Still though, i do like the ideas of the OP, though i would much rather have all cloaks work as canon over how they're done in game currently.

capnshadow27

I would gladly exchange the Fleet Defiant as-is with the Fleet B'Rel as-is.

Do you have any idea how much damage i could do with a Cannon capable ship that has all uni slots?

Seriously. If i could nail that down i would have a very nifty little tactical/science alpha striking glass cannon.

I don't understand why whenever feds want someting niftty its no no no its ours, but then you get mad that the ship we want a ship to be like is sooooo awful or something.

Keep it up with the 5 tac consoles cause frankly i usually make at least one of those the cloak if im using it. 5 tac consoles is too much unless you are using 3 for energy 2 for torps which is still a bit much i think.

But really i like th OP's ideas they are not too bad.

Maybe instead of harping you could add what you would like to see added to your precious B'Rel in a 2-piece bonus.

mimey2

capnshadow27 wrote: »

Maybe instead of harping you could add what you would like to see added to your precious B'Rel in a 2-piece bonus.

Ok.

I'd rather have BoPs buffed (primarily with hull and shields) to be more in-line and balanced due to how Romulans have changed the game so much, and no 2-piece bonus should be needed to do that.

A 2-piece bonus should be just that: A bonus. An extra for using a particular set, nothing more.

capnshadow27

mimey2 wrote: »

Ok.

I'd rather have BoPs buffed (primarily with hull and shields) to be more in-line and balanced due to how Romulans have changed the game so much, and no 2-piece bonus should be needed to do that.

A 2-piece bonus should be just that: A bonus. An extra for using a particular set, nothing more.

As nice as i assume that would be, All ships should have a buff to reduce the OP that Romulan ships brought in.

While i am definetly a proponent of the B'Rel getting a buff to its shield to a .9 or a .99, malbe also a third Weapon slot in the back. But with its nearly Epic Boff seating giving too much more hull than it has already would be massively uncool.(well massively is a bit extreme)

I would like to see you guys get one of your favorite ships buffed up in some ways, but you have to admit between the enhanced battle cloak and that boff seating she's a "tough little ship"

jellico1

The Gal X needs a battle cloak as well ...and without a console either just like the romulans

The defiant console needs to go as well and recieve a battle cloak

Or add consoles to all other cloaked ships

Fed ships need a 50% increase in damage and DHcs mountable on all cruisers with a 50% turn rate increase to be equal to the romulan ships which are bigger but can turn twice as fast !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

KDF a 50% increase in damage

Too counter the 11.5% crit chanve given to romulans on the bridge officers

Wait..................
This is STO...I forgot

Pay to Prey
and just look who is the Prey today

capnshadow27

Also before Mimey tears me up for agreeing, disagreeing and then agreeing again:D

We all i believe have a tendency to look at this wrong, The Defiant is the Defiant, BUT the B'Rel is NOT the KDF Defiant.

That honor goes to the Qin Heavy raptor.(at least its quite alot closer)....

wraithshadow13

Again, i think that ALL cloaks need to be battle cloak, that's just how they work in Canon, so it is how the cloak should work in game. However, with that said, the B'Rel could always use a little love as well. While i like the idea of adding a third rear slot, or another ensign slot, i really don't know what would be the better way to enhance it as it's already a nifty little ship, though it should by all rights get something for the change to basic cloak.

I would definitely like to see the Cloak no longer require a console from the Gal-x, but for some reason feel that it would be okay to leave it as a console for the Defiant as part of a set as well as balance issues. If anything though, the Galaxy-X definitely needs some love the most as it's a $25 ship, and it kind of sucks, not to metion that it's lance has been replaced by the superior lotus as well as better cruisers. I feel that the Lance should be over powered in a way, like the Scimitar's three piece blast. Needless to say, there are a lot of ships that would benefit from being given a pass to make sure they're up to standards, and those three would fit the bill nicely.

bitemepwe

Lol, well this turned into another "feds need Battle Cloak " thread quick........

seanhazz1

Wouldn't it be fair to make the Federation version of the proposed "Battle Cloak" set, ONLY part of a set bonus (2-set = Quads cannons + console; or 3-set =Quad cannons+console+Regen shield array), AND make the 'cloaking' console piece, a "tactical" console (it is called a "Battle" cloak). It would act as a regular cloak when equipped alone.

It would be far from OP, it would help to break up "cookie cutter" builds, and ensure you can't have 5 tactical consoles and battle cloak, as anyone on the other end of your alpha would complain about it being the new OP build.

Leave the current FED stand-alone cloak "as is", so it CAN be used with the 5 tactical consoles.

...and ...

You could tie the tiered sets to Romulan reputation, specific ships, or whatever time-sink/Dill sink/Zen Sink you want it to be, so its not easy to gain.

wraithshadow13

bitemepwe wrote: »

Lol, well this turned into another "feds need Battle Cloak " thread quick........

I think for me personally, i would rather just have the cloaks work as they did in canon, even if it meant that only the two fed ships had them, but i also feel that they should also show the advancements that were made as well. I did suggest that some other fed ships could get them, but said it should be limited if done at all, but i would much rather see more interesting ways of using them.

I'm trying not to sound like a "feds need battle cloak" poster, but at the same time, Cloak needs to be more canon.

alopen

wraithshadow13 wrote: »

I'm trying not to sound like a "feds need battle cloak" poster, but at the same time, Cloak needs to be more canon.

Start by fixing KDF cloaks, you know the faction that is canon for having cloaks. Then go back and adjust the 2 ships feds have that can use cloaks. Don't start by saying fixin our one ship (read Defiant) and in exchange we'll fix the BOP. I think we all know that someday, Cryptic will finally get around to adjusting the hull points and shield mod of BOPs once everyone refuses to fly them anymore (i.e. pay for them). Just look at the recent buff to the tactical warbird.

Pffftt a real exchange would be to upgrade the battlecruisers and Raptors cloaking. If anything they have a better argument for BC then the Defiant. It was atleast designed from the ground up with a cloaking device. Klingons have used them for centuries and maybe its just me, but when I watched DS9, 9 times out of 10 the Defiant's cloak failed when they seemed to need it the most. It rarely worked once they were getting fired at. It was like the first thing to go offline in every episode.

dova25

I do not agree with OP .

Defiant is better in stats than any KDF raptor (hull/shield mod/turn rate) and above that has 5 tactical consoles and no turning point issue so if it would get an battlecloak then it would be the the ultimate escort and it would be , in my opinion,equal to erasing the bop class from game

OP forgets that Federation got PL and with that all federation ships got a energy buff while Kdf ships remained unchanged when LoR was introduced

I think that Kdf ships need to get something (somebody said "klingon opera " ) just to be fair with Federation getting PL.

trakur

It would love it if they would modify the Defiant's existing universal cloaking module.

Something along the lines of.....

If you put the cloaking console into a science/engineering slot it works as it does now. If you put cloaking console into a tactical slot it takes up two of the slots(maybe grey-out one other tactical slot), and turns the ability into a battle cloak. So if you placed the cloak on a fleet defiant in a tactical console slot, then you would end up with 3 useable tactical console slots. This could put it on par with other ships as far as how many tactical console slots you should have on an escort with battle cloak capabilities.

I don't frequent the forums often enough to know if this specific suggestion has been made. I only know they seem to get made a lot, but I hope something like this becomes a reality some day.


*edit - Just to clarify I'm referring to the normal Battle Cloak, and the Defiant being able to cloak while in combat. I'm not talking about the Enhanced Battle Cloak.

twam

dova25 wrote: »

I think that Kdf ships need to get something (somebody said "klingon opera " ) just to be fair with Federation getting PL.

But, but, we got the Emission-seeking Torpedo, right? Oh. I see.

Also: I think Defiant should indeed be compared to raptors rather than bops, but most Defiant > all Raptors. And Romulans > all BoPs.

dova25

twam wrote: »

But, but, we got the Emission-seeking Torpedo, right? Oh. I see.

Emission seeking Torpedo maybe is good against cloaked ships but it wont help a kdf raptor fighting an federation escort .If before LoR we had the case of a Kumari versus a raptor after Lor we have Kumari+PL versus raptor+torpedo seeking emission .
So in my opinion federation ships got an very useful energy buff by getting the PL while kdf ships got nothing useful.
( More, now in almost every PVP there are at least a couple of A2B federation cruiser's which are greatly advantaged by the PL ,by keeping their energy levels up, taking in account their innate shield mod and hull versus kdf ships.)

Anyway back to subject Defiant+batlecloak > that any bop or romulan escort .
It would be much superior to bops on shield mod and hull.It would be much superior to any 5 tac romulan ship in energy levels because it hasnt the 40 base energy level reduction as romulan ships have.
So it would be the ultimate escort-bop (whatever) in game.