The damage would only be a bit higher than each Beam Array fired individually. But the chances to chances to get a secondary effect would be lowered in the same amount.
Btw. having 6 or 8 beams fired simultaneously isn't what i would call aesthetic, it looks too much cartoonish for my taste.
That's a matter of taste :P
Personally, I think it looks more impressive to have 6 to 8 beams ripping through your targets shields. Just one reminds me of the tier 1-2 ships, or the photonic vessels. So yes, you'd blend in slightly better. but you'd be just like everything else.
As dramatic as it is to have one uber shot slamming into somebodies face, I reckon it'd just look pathetic on all the ships I can picture atm.
___________________________ The day will not save them. And we own the night.
What we have seen on TV was just an inspiration to my suggestion.
Why not give Beam weapons more utility or versatility to make them more attractive to be used?
Compared to the high damage DHCs, Beam Arrays just seem like slow fireing low damage weapons in STO.
Giving them a second fireing mode, like "unite and fire as one" would be cool and it would even help make STO look like "real" Star Trek.
I think in this case Trek canon can be a enrichment and inspiration for STO not a hinderance.
I would contest that BAs do no damage. APO1, BFAW2, DEM3, EPtW3. Available to all captains, and that level of damage is crazy. Burns escorts down like nothing. And you don't even need Aux2Bat to do that. If the aim is PvE, then BFAW2, EPtW3, APB2. NPC where?
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Personally, I think it looks more impressive to have 6 to 8 beams ripping through your targets shields. Just one reminds me of the tier 1-2 ships, or the photonic vessels. So yes, you'd blend in slightly better. but you'd be just like everything else.
As dramatic as it is to have one uber shot slamming into somebodies face, I reckon it'd just look pathetic on all the ships I can picture atm.
Well that's a matter of taste.
But that's not the point, as i said they need more utility if they can't be strong enough to do some real damage like DHCs can.
I would contest that BAs do no damage. APO1, BFAW2, DEM3, EPtW3. Available to all captains, and that level of damage is crazy. Burns escorts down like nothing. And you don't even need Aux2Bat to do that. If the aim is PvE, then BFAW2, EPtW3, APB2. NPC where?
Crazy, lol.
Burn escorts down like nothing? NPC ships maybe, enemy players certainly not.
Surely Beam Arrays do some damage but a full turret Star Cruiser does damage as well.
The point is that for a Star Trek game, beam weapons are just patheticly weak compared to other weapons.
I know it is about damage vs fireing arc.
But what if the decisive factor where weapons cooldown and NOT fireing arc?
Escorts obviously have no problem whatsoever to align their weapons towards their target no matter how small DHCs fireing arc is. So i think that whole argument of fireing arc vs damage is faulty from the beginnning.
Since Cruisers can't turn as well as escorts, some different mechanic should apply to their main weapons. So why not give their weapons a higher cooldown the higher the damage is?
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
Crazy, lol.
Burn escorts down like nothing? NPC ships maybe, enemy players certainly not.
Surely Beam Arrays do some damage but a full turret Star Cruiser does damage as well.
The point is that for a Star Trek game, beam weapons are just patheticly weak compared to other weapons.
...
Have you seen a full Aux2Bat Excel or FACR do a full BFAW TS on an escort using the aforementioned combination of powers? The escort vanishes for one of two reasons. The first being that it ran cuz it's hull was getting waxed hard, the second being that it was dead.
That combo works very well on players. I've been on the giving and receiving end of that (and I even did it without Aux2bat). It's not pleasant.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Have you seen a full Aux2Bat Excel or FACR do a full BFAW TS on an escort using the aforementioned combination of powers? The escort vanishes for one of two reasons. The first being that it ran cuz it's hull was getting waxed hard, the second being that it was dead.
That combo works very well on players. I've been on the giving and receiving end of that (and I even did it without Aux2bat). It's not pleasant.
Yeah, but the problem with this is, not all Crusier have a tactical heavy BOFF layout like a Fleet Assault Crusier.
That ship could make Turrets deadly.
You shouldn't forget to consider that there are ships, like the Mirror AC or the GCS and several KDF Crusiers for example, that don't have so many Tac BOFF Stations to use Beam Overload, Attack Pattern Beta (+ Alpha) and other things like this. (KDF Crusiers still can use DHCs, which Starfleet ships cannot.)
While AtB gives a good amount of offensive, one shouldn't forget that AUX is almost constantly at zero. Which makes healing pretty impossible.
(Playing at Elite difficulty, so once in a while some enemy ship fires a torpedo salvo at you that kills your shields plus more than half of your ships hull.)
Just for comparison when flying a Romulan or KDF cruiser(-like) ship and the returning to a Starfleet ship, it is like doing everything in slow motion, except your enemies are still fireing at the same rate.
The problem i see is that Cryptics seems to thing Starfleet Crusiers are supposed to be the most defensive ships without consifereing that they are supposed to be jack of all trades, NOT jack of no trades.
So giving them the most common weapons in their game without ANY special ability for offense just makes them boring and fun killing IMO.
Surely FAW can raise ones damage statistic amazingly, but practically it doesn't help very much, it's just a superficial help but nothing that really helps destroying enemy ships IMHO.
Just my personal observation:
If you consider how maneuverable Escorts are and that the only drawback is a 45 degrees fireing arc, i think the whole concept of Fireing arc vs Damage is just faulty.
In my opinion, the better sollution would be a mechanic that works more like:
Damage - vs. - Weapons cooldown (Basic CD - Weapons Energy).
That way, stronger weapons would have a longer cooldown, instead of a smaller fireing arc that is easily compensated by a more maneuverable ship. More Weapon Power would shorten the Cooldown.
EDIT:
Sorry for the wall of text.
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
Well that's a matter of taste.
But that's not the point, as i said they need more utility if they can't be strong enough to do some real damage like DHCs can.
They fulfill their role well enough to me :P
If you want to deal more damage, use a different weapons.
What I would approve of is having single beams with tighter arcs and higher damage. As well as the oft-requested beam turrets...
One idea proposed by somebody on somewhere involved giving all weapons drastically wider firing arcs, but reduce damage significantly the farther from the norm you get. That proposal was rather poorly thought out, but with some work could help. Obviously, you could never have them rivaling the power of Dual cannons, since they'd be much more practical, nor would it make any sense in a fluffy manor. It would however allow people to use beams more effectively, even if it means not fully utilising all 8 beam arrays at once
___________________________ The day will not save them. And we own the night.
Crazy, lol.
Burn escorts down like nothing? NPC ships maybe, enemy players certainly not.
Surely Beam Arrays do some damage but a full turret Star Cruiser does damage as well.
The point is that for a Star Trek game, beam weapons are just patheticly weak compared to other weapons.
so I was doing ISE the other day with some guys from the channels
What I would approve of is having single beams with tighter arcs and higher damage. As well as the oft-requested beam turrets...
One idea proposed by somebody on somewhere involved giving all weapons drastically wider firing arcs, but reduce damage significantly the farther from the norm you get. That proposal was rather poorly thought out, but with some work could help. Obviously, you could never have them rivaling the power of Dual cannons, since they'd be much more practical, nor would it make any sense in a fluffy manor. It would however allow people to use beams more effectively, even if it means not fully utilising all 8 beam arrays at once
I never got why some people wanting beam turrets, i mean Beam weapons doing even less damage?
Surely it would give Escorts some benefit if they could just install one single Beam weapon that could use BO or FAW at 360 degrees, while keeping cannons on every remaining weapon slot. But for Crusiers i don't see any advantage.
What i would like to see is a rework of ship weapons in general as i have written previously.
But of course this would mean some work for Cryptics devs without any big advantage for Escorts in the end so we will hardly see it being realized.
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
For the sake of Beam Banks. Though Beam Banks have better damage than Beam Arrays, they're never a sane option because you can't really broadside thanks to arcs, nor do a full frontal burst without mixing Beams+Turrets which you should NEVER do.
With a beam-type turret, you can carry Fire At Will or Overload and do a frontal burst whilst still being pure beam. This is mostly a concern for Science Vessels and the better turning Cruisers, who have the turn rate to keep in that forward arc.
For the sake of Beam Banks. Though Beam Banks have better damage than Beam Arrays, they're never a sane option because you can't really broadside thanks to arcs, nor do a full frontal burst without mixing Beams+Turrets which you should NEVER do.
With a beam-type turret, you can carry Fire At Will or Overload and do a frontal burst whilst still being pure beam. This is mostly a concern for Science Vessels and the better turning Cruisers, who have the turn rate to keep in that forward arc.
Ah thanks, i never gave it a real though.
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
I never got why some people wanting beam turrets, i mean Beam weapons doing even less damage?
Surely it would give Escorts some benefit if they could just install one single Beam weapon that could use BO or FAW at 360 degrees, while keeping cannons on every remaining weapon slot. But for Crusiers i don't see any advantage.
What i would like to see is a rework of ship weapons in general as i have written previously.
But of course this would mean some work for Cryptics devs without any big advantage for Escorts in the end so we will hardly see it being realized.
I am not quite sure what to make of this, but let me tell you from a PvE perspective..
Please recheck the screenshot I posted, and count the digits.. its 45k DPS... there is no way you will currently achieve that with Cannons. Not throughout an entire STF. (I've heared claims that 20k would be impossible earlier)
So the answer to your first question is.. no, not DHCs but Beamarrays. If correctly used (depending on ships you could argue DualBeambank setups) it offers the most damage you will achieve in a PvE environment.
Revamping it all together would be the most reasonable thing to do, make DHCs deal more damage than beams to make Escorts viable in PvE again. Or even get rid of Cannons..
I suspect you do not run a damagemeter, otherwise this part wouldnt be necessary..
So download ACT, get a proper plugin and try it yourself (I'm running the one by Aria@Abydos1) and see what numbers are like on an elite STF. The average pug player does around 3k... (with a range of 500-6k) Usually when comparing DPS we are looking at ISE, as there is little downtime to the actual fighting, no real range issues and not too hefty aoe involved.
so its pretty much the same answer as above:
there is no way you will currently achieve that with any other weapontype (depending on ships you could argue DualBeambank setups).
What I meant was In my experience, beams do what they're supposed to. What you seem to want is for beams to take the role other weapons currently fill. I'm not saying that shouldn't happen, just that it seems a bit unnecessary. You could either double up all the weapons (i.e. add a Beam to match each cannon and a cannon to match eat beam), or just give visual options as you please... That would cause confusion with the abilities though :P
cruisers need beam arrays that are for cruisersthat do the massive damage there soposed to do and not being limited to a single cruiser that supports a very unrealistic build to what we compare it too in the shows...bfaw/aux2b
45 degree beam arrays that have much more punch that a DHC because its tailored to ships with very limited boff abilitys and slow turn rates
cruisers need port and starboard weapon slots as well perhaps 2 on each side for a large cruiser and 1 on each side on science vessels , these new weapons slots shound be limited to a 90 degree firing arc
with so few BO abilitys available on most cruisers they need something on them to make them more fun and interesting to play and boost there misirable dps in PvE
some cruisers would not need improvements like this but some need them in the worst way
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
cruisers need beam arrays that are for cruisersthat do the massive damage there soposed to do and not being limited to a single cruiser that supports a very unrealistic build to what we compare it too in the shows...bfaw/aux2b
45 degree beam arrays that have much more punch that a DHC because its tailored to ships with very limited boff abilitys and slow turn rates
cruisers need port and starboard weapon slots as well perhaps 2 on each side for a large cruiser and 1 on each side on science vessels , these new weapons slots shound be limited to a 90 degree firing arc
with so few BO abilitys available on most cruisers they need something on them to make them more fun and interesting to play and boost there misirable dps in PvE
some cruisers would not need improvements like this but some need them in the worst way
The shows and this game are two different beasts.
Beam arrays in the shows; the massive damage you claim they have, is due to the amount of emitters in a phaser array. Not all cruisers have the beam array damage output as a Galaxy-class.
Why would you want 45 degree beam arrays? Just to circumvent the "DC is only for escorts/Galaxy-X" rule?
We don't need port and starboard weapons slots. The existing ones work just fine, and the arc coverage is excellent.
As for BO abilities, all endgame ships save the BoPs have the same number of bridge officer abilities: 12. It's how they are distributed that makes the difference. Also, it's how you use it.
stardestroyer001, Admiral, Explorers Fury PvE/PvP Fleet | Retired PvP Player
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cruisers need beam arrays that are for cruisersthat do the massive damage there soposed to do and not being limited to a single cruiser that supports a very unrealistic build to what we compare it too in the shows...bfaw/aux2b
45 degree beam arrays that have much more punch that a DHC because its tailored to ships with very limited boff abilitys and slow turn rates
cruisers need port and starboard weapon slots as well perhaps 2 on each side for a large cruiser and 1 on each side on science vessels , these new weapons slots shound be limited to a 90 degree firing arc
with so few BO abilitys available on most cruisers they need something on them to make them more fun and interesting to play and boost there misirable dps in PvE
some cruisers would not need improvements like this but some need them in the worst way
I am not quite sure what to make of this, but let me tell you from a PvE perspective..
Please recheck the screenshot I posted, and count the digits.. its 45k DPS... there is no way you will currently achieve that with Cannons. Not throughout an entire STF. (I've heared claims that 20k would be impossible earlier)
So the answer to your first question is.. no, not DHCs but Beamarrays. If correctly used (depending on ships you could argue DualBeambank setups) it offers the most damage you will achieve in a PvE environment.
Revamping it all together would be the most reasonable thing to do, make DHCs deal more damage than beams to make Escorts viable in PvE again. Or even get rid of Cannons..
When i'm in combat, i don't give a d##m about how much damage i distribute over the whole battlefiled, as long as i can't seriously damage or destroy an enemy it's just fireworks.
I suspect you do not run a damagemeter, otherwise this part wouldnt be necessary..
So download ACT, get a proper plugin and try it yourself (I'm running the one by Aria@Abydos1) and see what numbers are like on an elite STF. The average pug player does around 3k... (with a range of 500-6k) Usually when comparing DPS we are looking at ISE, as there is little downtime to the actual fighting, no real range issues and not too hefty aoe involved.
so its pretty much the same answer as above:
there is no way you will currently achieve that with any other weapontype (depending on ships you could argue DualBeambank setups).
You are right i don't use damage meters, because i think they conveys a false impression a ships damage.
Just fireing at ANYTHING doesn't help anyone. Of course it raises your statistics but i think thats all smoke and mirrors IMHO.
For example a 1 on 1 situation.
If you use a full beam boat build and permanently spamming FAW would you do more damage than by using a DHC build with a permanent C:RF?
I think the differences would be resounding.
So in my opinion Beam weapons and their BOFF powers aren't nearly as effective as cannon weapons and their according BOFF powers.
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
When i'm in combat, i don't give a d##m about how much damage i distribute over the whole battlefiled, as long as i can't seriously damage or destroy an enemy it's just fireworks.
You are right i don't use damage meters, because i think they conveys a false impression a ships damage.
Just fireing at ANYTHING doesn't help anyone. Of course it raises your statistics but i think thats all smoke and mirrors IMHO.
For example a 1 on 1 situation.
If you use a full beam boat build and permanently spamming FAW would you do more damage than by using a DHC build with a permanent C:RF?
I think the differences would be resounding.
So in my opinion Beam weapons and their BOFF powers aren't nearly as effective as cannon weapons and their according BOFF powers.
The thing is though, CRF is a single target eliminator. More often than not, you want as much damage being dealt over as much an area as possible in PvE. In PvP, those numbers are meaningless (you won't see that level of DPS in PvP period due to players actually having a brain, and the majority of those massive DPS setups are actually useless in PvP, but I digress) and you want single target elimination. But in PvE, AoE is actually your friend. And BFAW backed by APBs is devastating. Period.
CRF can hurt like hell, but you'll notice in most PvE, CSV is preferred due to it's ability to clear out large numbers of enemies. You only prefer the CRF when taking on the Boss level enemies. Short of that, it's CSV. Same goes for BO (which is the equivalent of CRF, it hits one target HARD). You want it for bosses, but against mobs? No thanks.
Same goes for THY and TS. Spread is preferred because it can cause large damage to multiple targets (PvE and some points in PvP), but THY is preferred when you only have one target to deal with (bosses in PvE and most PvP). It's simple.
Note: For some reason TS doesn't miss, which is why it's probably becoming more popular period, whereas THY still can miss. Unless it's a destructible projectile, in which case in PvP it will be destroyed, but in PvE... hehehe have fun!
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Please recheck the screenshot I posted, and count the digits.. its 45k DPS... there is no way you will currently achieve that with Cannons. Not throughout an entire STF. (I've heared claims that 20k would be impossible earlier)
You screenshot showed an encounter length of 2:20. That's not an entire STF unless you were with a stupidly powerful team, and if you were that would skew your numbers high anyway (less time out of combat, less time making things run smoothly, more debuffs on a target, etc.). Plus, as you acknowledged, the range in achievable DPS is huge: some people can't manage 500, others do 20k, and that's true of almost all ship and weapon types (sci ships being the exception). To really make a statement about all this requires a comparison between players of similar skill, with similar levels of gear, under similar conditions, and that's really not what you've given us. Plus my feeling is that a big piece of the problem is that gear matters too much more for beams than for cannons, most of these really high DPS setups rely on Technicians, Marion, the Omega Weapon Amplifier, and the Experimental array to work, and it rather looks like you're using all of those. Meanwhile cannons can get perfectly good performance out of exchange gear and no doffs at all.
The thing is though, CRF is a single target eliminator. More often than not, you want as much damage being dealt over as much an area as possible in PvE. In PvP, those numbers are meaningless (you won't see that level of DPS in PvP period due to players actually having a brain, and the majority of those massive DPS setups are actually useless in PvP, but I digress) and you want single target elimination. But in PvE, AoE is actually your friend. And BFAW backed by APBs is devastating. Period.
CRF can hurt like hell, but you'll notice in most PvE, CSV is preferred due to it's ability to clear out large numbers of enemies. You only prefer the CRF when taking on the Boss level enemies. Short of that, it's CSV. Same goes for BO (which is the equivalent of CRF, it hits one target HARD). You want it for bosses, but against mobs? No thanks.
I know CRF is a good tool for AOE damage, no agrument against this from me.
But FAW is utterly useless, It fires at ANYTHING no matter if it is the BPC group you want to attack or the cube behind you or the Gate above you. It just distributes too much damage on too many enemy ships and thus making it pretty uneffectinve in my opinion. As i said FAW is just for show and useable against mines and fighter spam at most.
I am not completely against AOE damage, but Beam weapons get the most useless form of AOE damage possible. The same for Beam Overload it drains so much power, every following shot is just firwork (the funny thing is the new Energy weapons DOFF gives the following shots a chance to damage the hull, am i the only one seeing the irony behind this?).
In my opinion the best way to improve Beam Weapons is to unlock cannon weapon BOFF powers for Beam Weapons and vice versa. This would open up much more possibilities for different playstyles and would make Beam Weapons more than just better firework cruisers can make.
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
Against dumb NPC's they are fine.
Its in PvP where they are horrendously and completely outclassed by cannons.
And as such they are far cry from being "fine"
I've even been considering redesigning my Escort (Prometheus) to use beams instead of cannons (I know what you're thinking, but I find that I frequently have to turn facings as my shields are so fragile - and with cannons that takes away my ability to attack, which would not be a problem with beams...).
Get two copies of Tac Team and two copies of Emergency Power to Shields, max them out on expertise and activate them every time they come off cooldown and you shouldn't have that problem again. (You could also set up a keybind to do Distribute Shields every time you hit the spacebar to fire your weapons, and you could actually have the keybind activate those abilities too, http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=192243 is probably the best basic resource on keybinding, only mistake is that you do have to use quotation marks in the chat window as well.) And then once you've tried some good builds you can join the chorus complaining about beams needing a buff, lol.
You could post it a hundred times, it would still be wrong:
- Beams are fine,
- Cannons are fine.
Don't change anything, or the next post is ezriryan with 100k DPS.
EDIT:
It's just you, learn how to work with beams and all these "Beams are so underpowered"-Trollthreads would not be around here.
I mean, there are threads about Beams beeing overpowered, so why do you think there would be a need to improve them? The Devs see both types of threads and come to the result: The balancing is good.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
If Star Trek Online was an Open-Source (GPL) Game, we would have a low-grind fork.
100K DPS....so he can take out a Tac cube by himslef in 1o seconds? show me that proof and ill buy it.
Just take a look at his first post in this thread, he did (almost) 50k DPS on his Beam-Scimitar. If you are going to make Beams even stronger, then his next post here is 100k DPS.
If you want to see how to use beams, then take a look at his video-channel (link in the last line of his post), I'm sure there's a short 3 minute Infected Space "the Conduit" Elite in the records.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
If Star Trek Online was an Open-Source (GPL) Game, we would have a low-grind fork.
Sorry but you are just wrong.
Dual beam banks and the allmighty Beam Overload stacking might be fine, and even overpowered.
But we are talking about beam arrays here, and beam arrays are definitely not fine.
Beam arrays do not have the capacity to provide anywhere remotely close to the same burst damage as cannons, burst damage that is very much needed in PvP these days to take down targets.
They used to be fine, but that was a long time ago before, doffs and reputation powers, fleet/lockbox ships and what not.
Its pretty simple really.
ALL the Cannon abilites work on ALL cannons and turrets equipped on a ship.
However the one power capable of dealing focused damage on a single target only works for one array and one shot only.
Thats why in the original post I suggested that beam arrays be given a different mechanic, to make them extremely dangerous over time, vs the instant burst damage available wth DHC's.
Sorry but you are just wrong.
Dual beam banks and the allmighty Beam Overload stacking might be fine, and even overpowered.
But we are talking about beam arrays here, and beam arrays are definitely not fine.
Beam arrays do not have the capacity to provide anywhere remotely close to the same burst damage as cannons, burst damage that is very much needed in PvP these days to take down targets.
They used to be fine, but that was a long time ago before, doffs and reputation powers, fleet/lockbox ships and what not.
Its pretty simple really.
ALL the Cannon abilites work on ALL cannons and turrets equipped on a ship.
However the one power capable of dealing focused damage on a single target only works for one array and one shot only.
Thats why in the original post I suggested that beam arrays be given a different mechanic, to make them extremely dangerous over time, vs the instant burst damage available wth DHC's.
Well, open your eyes... Take a look at the video-channel and you will see that Beams are allready powerfull enough.
I wonder why you mention DHCs and not DCs? Next you'll tell us that DCs are useless, just because you don't see any application for them.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
If Star Trek Online was an Open-Source (GPL) Game, we would have a low-grind fork.
You could post it a hundred times, it would still be wrong:
- Beams are fine,
- Cannons are fine.
Don't change anything, or the next post is ezriryan with 100k DPS.
EDIT:
It's just you, learn how to work with beams and all these "Beams are so underpowered"-Trollthreads would not be around here.
I mean, there are threads about Beams beeing overpowered, so why do you think there would be a need to improve them? The Devs see both types of threads and come to the result: The balancing is good.
Seriousy?
If you have found out how to do some damage with beam Weapons then you should try using DHCs from time to time.
Even the devs realize that Beam weapons aren't the best weapons around, there's a reason why every new ship can equip DHCs.
In my opinion Beam weapons are just gimmick weapons, useable for clearing mine/fighter spame or as a short lucky burst power, but DHCs do serious damage by nature.
Sure the balance is good if you're on the DHC using side of the game, but ships that cannot use them are just disadvantaged. Even though they lack of choices by not being able to use them.
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
Comments
That's a matter of taste :P
Personally, I think it looks more impressive to have 6 to 8 beams ripping through your targets shields. Just one reminds me of the tier 1-2 ships, or the photonic vessels. So yes, you'd blend in slightly better. but you'd be just like everything else.
As dramatic as it is to have one uber shot slamming into somebodies face, I reckon it'd just look pathetic on all the ships I can picture atm.
The day will not save them. And we own the night.
I would contest that BAs do no damage. APO1, BFAW2, DEM3, EPtW3. Available to all captains, and that level of damage is crazy. Burns escorts down like nothing. And you don't even need Aux2Bat to do that. If the aim is PvE, then BFAW2, EPtW3, APB2. NPC where?
But that's not the point, as i said they need more utility if they can't be strong enough to do some real damage like DHCs can.
Crazy, lol.
Burn escorts down like nothing? NPC ships maybe, enemy players certainly not.
Surely Beam Arrays do some damage but a full turret Star Cruiser does damage as well.
The point is that for a Star Trek game, beam weapons are just patheticly weak compared to other weapons.
I know it is about damage vs fireing arc.
But what if the decisive factor where weapons cooldown and NOT fireing arc?
Escorts obviously have no problem whatsoever to align their weapons towards their target no matter how small DHCs fireing arc is. So i think that whole argument of fireing arc vs damage is faulty from the beginnning.
Since Cruisers can't turn as well as escorts, some different mechanic should apply to their main weapons. So why not give their weapons a higher cooldown the higher the damage is?
...
Have you seen a full Aux2Bat Excel or FACR do a full BFAW TS on an escort using the aforementioned combination of powers? The escort vanishes for one of two reasons. The first being that it ran cuz it's hull was getting waxed hard, the second being that it was dead.
That combo works very well on players. I've been on the giving and receiving end of that (and I even did it without Aux2bat). It's not pleasant.
That ship could make Turrets deadly.
You shouldn't forget to consider that there are ships, like the Mirror AC or the GCS and several KDF Crusiers for example, that don't have so many Tac BOFF Stations to use Beam Overload, Attack Pattern Beta (+ Alpha) and other things like this. (KDF Crusiers still can use DHCs, which Starfleet ships cannot.)
While AtB gives a good amount of offensive, one shouldn't forget that AUX is almost constantly at zero. Which makes healing pretty impossible.
(Playing at Elite difficulty, so once in a while some enemy ship fires a torpedo salvo at you that kills your shields plus more than half of your ships hull.)
Just for comparison when flying a Romulan or KDF cruiser(-like) ship and the returning to a Starfleet ship, it is like doing everything in slow motion, except your enemies are still fireing at the same rate.
The problem i see is that Cryptics seems to thing Starfleet Crusiers are supposed to be the most defensive ships without consifereing that they are supposed to be jack of all trades, NOT jack of no trades.
So giving them the most common weapons in their game without ANY special ability for offense just makes them boring and fun killing IMO.
Surely FAW can raise ones damage statistic amazingly, but practically it doesn't help very much, it's just a superficial help but nothing that really helps destroying enemy ships IMHO.
Just my personal observation:
If you consider how maneuverable Escorts are and that the only drawback is a 45 degrees fireing arc, i think the whole concept of Fireing arc vs Damage is just faulty.
In my opinion, the better sollution would be a mechanic that works more like:
That way, stronger weapons would have a longer cooldown, instead of a smaller fireing arc that is easily compensated by a more maneuverable ship. More Weapon Power would shorten the Cooldown.
EDIT:
Sorry for the wall of text.
They fulfill their role well enough to me :P
If you want to deal more damage, use a different weapons.
What I would approve of is having single beams with tighter arcs and higher damage. As well as the oft-requested beam turrets...
One idea proposed by somebody on somewhere involved giving all weapons drastically wider firing arcs, but reduce damage significantly the farther from the norm you get. That proposal was rather poorly thought out, but with some work could help. Obviously, you could never have them rivaling the power of Dual cannons, since they'd be much more practical, nor would it make any sense in a fluffy manor. It would however allow people to use beams more effectively, even if it means not fully utilising all 8 beam arrays at once
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so I was doing ISE the other day with some guys from the channels
breakdown
RyanSTO
You're missing the comparison to other weapons.
I never got why some people wanting beam turrets, i mean Beam weapons doing even less damage?
Surely it would give Escorts some benefit if they could just install one single Beam weapon that could use BO or FAW at 360 degrees, while keeping cannons on every remaining weapon slot. But for Crusiers i don't see any advantage.
What i would like to see is a rework of ship weapons in general as i have written previously.
But of course this would mean some work for Cryptics devs without any big advantage for Escorts in the end so we will hardly see it being realized.
For the sake of Beam Banks. Though Beam Banks have better damage than Beam Arrays, they're never a sane option because you can't really broadside thanks to arcs, nor do a full frontal burst without mixing Beams+Turrets which you should NEVER do.
With a beam-type turret, you can carry Fire At Will or Overload and do a frontal burst whilst still being pure beam. This is mostly a concern for Science Vessels and the better turning Cruisers, who have the turn rate to keep in that forward arc.
Ah thanks, i never gave it a real though.
I am not quite sure what to make of this, but let me tell you from a PvE perspective..
Please recheck the screenshot I posted, and count the digits.. its 45k DPS... there is no way you will currently achieve that with Cannons. Not throughout an entire STF. (I've heared claims that 20k would be impossible earlier)
So the answer to your first question is.. no, not DHCs but Beamarrays. If correctly used (depending on ships you could argue DualBeambank setups) it offers the most damage you will achieve in a PvE environment.
Revamping it all together would be the most reasonable thing to do, make DHCs deal more damage than beams to make Escorts viable in PvE again. Or even get rid of Cannons..
I suspect you do not run a damagemeter, otherwise this part wouldnt be necessary..
So download ACT, get a proper plugin and try it yourself (I'm running the one by Aria@Abydos1) and see what numbers are like on an elite STF. The average pug player does around 3k... (with a range of 500-6k) Usually when comparing DPS we are looking at ISE, as there is little downtime to the actual fighting, no real range issues and not too hefty aoe involved.
so its pretty much the same answer as above:
there is no way you will currently achieve that with any other weapontype (depending on ships you could argue DualBeambank setups).
with best regards RyanSTO
What I meant was In my experience, beams do what they're supposed to. What you seem to want is for beams to take the role other weapons currently fill. I'm not saying that shouldn't happen, just that it seems a bit unnecessary. You could either double up all the weapons (i.e. add a Beam to match each cannon and a cannon to match eat beam), or just give visual options as you please... That would cause confusion with the abilities though :P
I want them purely for aesthetic reasons :P
Other people, well I believe some of them have responded above...
The day will not save them. And we own the night.
45 degree beam arrays that have much more punch that a DHC because its tailored to ships with very limited boff abilitys and slow turn rates
cruisers need port and starboard weapon slots as well perhaps 2 on each side for a large cruiser and 1 on each side on science vessels , these new weapons slots shound be limited to a 90 degree firing arc
with so few BO abilitys available on most cruisers they need something on them to make them more fun and interesting to play and boost there misirable dps in PvE
some cruisers would not need improvements like this but some need them in the worst way
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The shows and this game are two different beasts.
Beam arrays in the shows; the massive damage you claim they have, is due to the amount of emitters in a phaser array. Not all cruisers have the beam array damage output as a Galaxy-class.
Why would you want 45 degree beam arrays? Just to circumvent the "DC is only for escorts/Galaxy-X" rule?
We don't need port and starboard weapons slots. The existing ones work just fine, and the arc coverage is excellent.
As for BO abilities, all endgame ships save the BoPs have the same number of bridge officer abilities: 12. It's how they are distributed that makes the difference. Also, it's how you use it.
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I think you should take a look at this again, maybe let ezriryan show you "how beams work". It could be enough to watch his (linked) video-channel.
If Star Trek Online was an Open-Source (GPL) Game, we would have a low-grind fork.
You are right i don't use damage meters, because i think they conveys a false impression a ships damage.
Just fireing at ANYTHING doesn't help anyone. Of course it raises your statistics but i think thats all smoke and mirrors IMHO.
For example a 1 on 1 situation.
If you use a full beam boat build and permanently spamming FAW would you do more damage than by using a DHC build with a permanent C:RF?
I think the differences would be resounding.
So in my opinion Beam weapons and their BOFF powers aren't nearly as effective as cannon weapons and their according BOFF powers.
The thing is though, CRF is a single target eliminator. More often than not, you want as much damage being dealt over as much an area as possible in PvE. In PvP, those numbers are meaningless (you won't see that level of DPS in PvP period due to players actually having a brain, and the majority of those massive DPS setups are actually useless in PvP, but I digress) and you want single target elimination. But in PvE, AoE is actually your friend. And BFAW backed by APBs is devastating. Period.
CRF can hurt like hell, but you'll notice in most PvE, CSV is preferred due to it's ability to clear out large numbers of enemies. You only prefer the CRF when taking on the Boss level enemies. Short of that, it's CSV. Same goes for BO (which is the equivalent of CRF, it hits one target HARD). You want it for bosses, but against mobs? No thanks.
Same goes for THY and TS. Spread is preferred because it can cause large damage to multiple targets (PvE and some points in PvP), but THY is preferred when you only have one target to deal with (bosses in PvE and most PvP). It's simple.
Note: For some reason TS doesn't miss, which is why it's probably becoming more popular period, whereas THY still can miss. Unless it's a destructible projectile, in which case in PvP it will be destroyed, but in PvE... hehehe have fun!
You screenshot showed an encounter length of 2:20. That's not an entire STF unless you were with a stupidly powerful team, and if you were that would skew your numbers high anyway (less time out of combat, less time making things run smoothly, more debuffs on a target, etc.). Plus, as you acknowledged, the range in achievable DPS is huge: some people can't manage 500, others do 20k, and that's true of almost all ship and weapon types (sci ships being the exception). To really make a statement about all this requires a comparison between players of similar skill, with similar levels of gear, under similar conditions, and that's really not what you've given us. Plus my feeling is that a big piece of the problem is that gear matters too much more for beams than for cannons, most of these really high DPS setups rely on Technicians, Marion, the Omega Weapon Amplifier, and the Experimental array to work, and it rather looks like you're using all of those. Meanwhile cannons can get perfectly good performance out of exchange gear and no doffs at all.
But FAW is utterly useless, It fires at ANYTHING no matter if it is the BPC group you want to attack or the cube behind you or the Gate above you. It just distributes too much damage on too many enemy ships and thus making it pretty uneffectinve in my opinion. As i said FAW is just for show and useable against mines and fighter spam at most.
I am not completely against AOE damage, but Beam weapons get the most useless form of AOE damage possible. The same for Beam Overload it drains so much power, every following shot is just firwork (the funny thing is the new Energy weapons DOFF gives the following shots a chance to damage the hull, am i the only one seeing the irony behind this?).
In my opinion the best way to improve Beam Weapons is to unlock cannon weapon BOFF powers for Beam Weapons and vice versa. This would open up much more possibilities for different playstyles and would make Beam Weapons more than just better firework cruisers can make.
Its in PvP where they are horrendously and completely outclassed by cannons.
And as such they are far cry from being "fine"
Get two copies of Tac Team and two copies of Emergency Power to Shields, max them out on expertise and activate them every time they come off cooldown and you shouldn't have that problem again. (You could also set up a keybind to do Distribute Shields every time you hit the spacebar to fire your weapons, and you could actually have the keybind activate those abilities too, http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=192243 is probably the best basic resource on keybinding, only mistake is that you do have to use quotation marks in the chat window as well.) And then once you've tried some good builds you can join the chorus complaining about beams needing a buff, lol.
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=847001
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You could post it a hundred times, it would still be wrong:
- Beams are fine,
- Cannons are fine.
Don't change anything, or the next post is ezriryan with 100k DPS.
EDIT:
It's just you, learn how to work with beams and all these "Beams are so underpowered"-Trollthreads would not be around here.
I mean, there are threads about Beams beeing overpowered, so why do you think there would be a need to improve them? The Devs see both types of threads and come to the result: The balancing is good.
If Star Trek Online was an Open-Source (GPL) Game, we would have a low-grind fork.
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Just take a look at his first post in this thread, he did (almost) 50k DPS on his Beam-Scimitar. If you are going to make Beams even stronger, then his next post here is 100k DPS.
If you want to see how to use beams, then take a look at his video-channel (link in the last line of his post), I'm sure there's a short 3 minute Infected Space "the Conduit" Elite in the records.
If Star Trek Online was an Open-Source (GPL) Game, we would have a low-grind fork.
Sorry but you are just wrong.
Dual beam banks and the allmighty Beam Overload stacking might be fine, and even overpowered.
But we are talking about beam arrays here, and beam arrays are definitely not fine.
Beam arrays do not have the capacity to provide anywhere remotely close to the same burst damage as cannons, burst damage that is very much needed in PvP these days to take down targets.
They used to be fine, but that was a long time ago before, doffs and reputation powers, fleet/lockbox ships and what not.
Its pretty simple really.
ALL the Cannon abilites work on ALL cannons and turrets equipped on a ship.
However the one power capable of dealing focused damage on a single target only works for one array and one shot only.
Thats why in the original post I suggested that beam arrays be given a different mechanic, to make them extremely dangerous over time, vs the instant burst damage available wth DHC's.
Well, open your eyes... Take a look at the video-channel and you will see that Beams are allready powerfull enough.
I wonder why you mention DHCs and not DCs? Next you'll tell us that DCs are useless, just because you don't see any application for them.
If Star Trek Online was an Open-Source (GPL) Game, we would have a low-grind fork.
If you have found out how to do some damage with beam Weapons then you should try using DHCs from time to time.
Even the devs realize that Beam weapons aren't the best weapons around, there's a reason why every new ship can equip DHCs.
In my opinion Beam weapons are just gimmick weapons, useable for clearing mine/fighter spame or as a short lucky burst power, but DHCs do serious damage by nature.
Sure the balance is good if you're on the DHC using side of the game, but ships that cannot use them are just disadvantaged. Even though they lack of choices by not being able to use them.