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How DEF and ACC saved STO, so stop badmouthing them!
thissler
Member Posts: 2,055 Arc User
STO is full of great ideas. And so so implementation. One of the great ideas is DEF vs ACC. One of the so so implementations was the distribution and sources of DEF and ACC. I think I've talked about that. You may have listened. If not, oh well I won't be going over that again.
For a moment we will take a quick look at limiting resources. This has been suggested as a fix. In the style of "mana pools". Or "limited healing".
It would be hard to come up with a worse idea. Honestly. Do some research. There is at least one very well known game with a very large budget with a huge number of iterations of play that runs on a very similar system. By similar I mean to say "exactly that". That style of game has the same issues as STO plus the added bonus of being hugely gear dependant. Because you need all those stats. And the stats come from gear. It's great to hear someone in one of those games complaining about being "globaled" by an "overgeared" player.
But STO doesn't have globals or overgeared players. So be thankful. Although I'd say 99% of the player base has no idea what that means to them. Especially the bit about cooldowns and in particular global cooldowns. Why no one seems to get that is a mystery to me. Would ANOTHER post on that help? Anyway. Moving on.
Bushido Blade. Great game or Greatest Game of All Time? One of the great features in game mechanics of this game was the removal of power bars, combo points, health bars, etc. All that garbage just GONE! Instead they had the "Body Damage System". If you're interested, google it! Suffice it to say that from the moment a match started right up to the moment a match ended either fighter could be instantly killed. So you could have your knees damaged, be lying flat on your back, and an overconfident foe could lean in for the kill, and you'd stab him in the heart. DEAD! Good stuff. On the other hand you could be at full "health" and wind up some great special move and your opponent easily deflects it. Good stuff. See, the 'weakest' attack can be deadly if it gets past your defense, and the 'strongest' attack is useless when you are prepared for it.
We call this "just like real life".
And that's how STO essentially plays out. If you've gotten an escort down to 5% by using all your buffs and you don't IMMEDIATELY turn defensive and GTFO you absolutely deserve whatever that player does to you. You really do. If you're beating the TRIBBLE out of someone by pouring fire on them as they cycle abilities and you're crying into your keyboard because you can't get them to drop below 90% well you deserve that as well. There is little to no relationship between how damaged a ship is, and how much damage it can deal. There is little to no relationship between how much damage you can put out, and how much damage a target will take. Well isn't THAT frustrating!
DEF and ACC make this possible. Please don't say it is resistances. It isn't. Resistances come into play later, at a couple of different points. LATER. Not NOW.
STO pvp is hard because of the relationship between DEF and ACC. And it only works because of it. Without it, this game would be over. It essentially gives any ship the ability to destroy or to be destroyed regardless of other factors. It is what really makes STO a game of skill as opposed to merely a game of gearing. In most other games, your passives can see you through a number of boo boo's. And the games are designed to be like that. In STO that won't get you very far.
Okay wait. For some reason the devs are pushing in that direction, but it didn't matter THAT much because of the underlying DEF and ACC. And THEN they added DEF and ACC passives. Way to go guys!
So STO pvp is hard. But it works. And it works for so many because of DEF and ACC and if you changed it all you would gain is a gear grind. And you can't come back from that.
Maybe if whenever you had a target selected your ship HUD showed your hit chance? Maybe that would help. And your ship HUD showed your bonus defense. If you turn on the audio, the ships computer will actually tell you to effing move. Perhaps if these HUD changes were implemented, just having this info in players faces would keep them aware of how key they were.
Anyways, cheers and happy flying!
And if anyone still has Bushido Blade, can I come over and haz a game?:)
For a moment we will take a quick look at limiting resources. This has been suggested as a fix. In the style of "mana pools". Or "limited healing".
It would be hard to come up with a worse idea. Honestly. Do some research. There is at least one very well known game with a very large budget with a huge number of iterations of play that runs on a very similar system. By similar I mean to say "exactly that". That style of game has the same issues as STO plus the added bonus of being hugely gear dependant. Because you need all those stats. And the stats come from gear. It's great to hear someone in one of those games complaining about being "globaled" by an "overgeared" player.
But STO doesn't have globals or overgeared players. So be thankful. Although I'd say 99% of the player base has no idea what that means to them. Especially the bit about cooldowns and in particular global cooldowns. Why no one seems to get that is a mystery to me. Would ANOTHER post on that help? Anyway. Moving on.
Bushido Blade. Great game or Greatest Game of All Time? One of the great features in game mechanics of this game was the removal of power bars, combo points, health bars, etc. All that garbage just GONE! Instead they had the "Body Damage System". If you're interested, google it! Suffice it to say that from the moment a match started right up to the moment a match ended either fighter could be instantly killed. So you could have your knees damaged, be lying flat on your back, and an overconfident foe could lean in for the kill, and you'd stab him in the heart. DEAD! Good stuff. On the other hand you could be at full "health" and wind up some great special move and your opponent easily deflects it. Good stuff. See, the 'weakest' attack can be deadly if it gets past your defense, and the 'strongest' attack is useless when you are prepared for it.
We call this "just like real life".
And that's how STO essentially plays out. If you've gotten an escort down to 5% by using all your buffs and you don't IMMEDIATELY turn defensive and GTFO you absolutely deserve whatever that player does to you. You really do. If you're beating the TRIBBLE out of someone by pouring fire on them as they cycle abilities and you're crying into your keyboard because you can't get them to drop below 90% well you deserve that as well. There is little to no relationship between how damaged a ship is, and how much damage it can deal. There is little to no relationship between how much damage you can put out, and how much damage a target will take. Well isn't THAT frustrating!
DEF and ACC make this possible. Please don't say it is resistances. It isn't. Resistances come into play later, at a couple of different points. LATER. Not NOW.
STO pvp is hard because of the relationship between DEF and ACC. And it only works because of it. Without it, this game would be over. It essentially gives any ship the ability to destroy or to be destroyed regardless of other factors. It is what really makes STO a game of skill as opposed to merely a game of gearing. In most other games, your passives can see you through a number of boo boo's. And the games are designed to be like that. In STO that won't get you very far.
Okay wait. For some reason the devs are pushing in that direction, but it didn't matter THAT much because of the underlying DEF and ACC. And THEN they added DEF and ACC passives. Way to go guys!
So STO pvp is hard. But it works. And it works for so many because of DEF and ACC and if you changed it all you would gain is a gear grind. And you can't come back from that.
Maybe if whenever you had a target selected your ship HUD showed your hit chance? Maybe that would help. And your ship HUD showed your bonus defense. If you turn on the audio, the ships computer will actually tell you to effing move. Perhaps if these HUD changes were implemented, just having this info in players faces would keep them aware of how key they were.
Anyways, cheers and happy flying!
And if anyone still has Bushido Blade, can I come over and haz a game?:)
Post edited by Unknown User on
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proof of that are basically ALL those games that use the mechanics STO's PVP lacks, and are played by millions of people online right now.
Limited resources are a thing i'd like to see implemented in STO for what is now AUX power
Acc / Def is a lazy TRIBBLE mechanic that was tolerable until LoR as long as you stayed out of pvp. Now it is even more stupid.
One thing i think STO could do with, ( i enjoyed the star trek legacy game's damage system by which you can destroy an enemies nacelles permanantly, or completely destroy their weapons )
now of course this works best for PVE where your not going to TRIBBLE off an NPC in the same way a player would be pissed to have his engines destroyed
Assuming that portion is aimed at my suggestion you couldn't be more wrong. The suggested limited resource was your hull not mana. The only limitation it would have put on healing was to prevent it from allowing you to completely ignore incoming damage and reduce the yo-yo effect which is bad.
Avoidance systems are inherently yo-yo in nature and end up being considered not fun by the majority of players which is why most games avoid it at all costs and those that do not end up being, unpopular.
And at the end of the day what determines if a game system is good? This isn't an art it is a business. Popularity is the deciding factor and let us just say that the PvP in STO is not very popular.
But I now understand where you are coming from. You view the PvP to be similar to that of a fighting game or brawler and wish the design to be similar to that. The best PvP design I have ever seen in a similar RPGish genre is that of MOBA games and I wish it to be similar to those. We shall never agree because simply put we are coming from completely different directions.
TLDR: MMOs are not fighting games.
Her other hobby:
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Confucius says "A Panda is most dangerous when Sad".
Welcome to the PvP forums, where undead logic abounds.
If everybody had 50% to 75% more defense than you, you'd still have a 66.7% to 57.1% chance to hit them. Technically, they wouldn't have 50-75% avoidance. For them to have an actual 50% chance of avoidance, they'd need to have ~99% more defense than you have accuracy. Playing the rounding game, to get to the 75% chance of avoidance - they'd need ~293% more defense than you have accuracy.
Everybody starts with:
100% Accuracy
100% Defense
100% Accuracy vs. 100% Defense provides a 100% to-hit chance.
The additional amounts you see listed are Bonus Accuracy and Bonus Defense - both of which can be a negative bonus.
Bonus Accuracy
Trait (Tactical) - Crippling Fire: -2.5% per Crit, can 3stack for -7.5%
Trait (General) - Accurate: +10%
Trait (Premium) - Inspirational Leader: +10 Starship Targeting, can 3stack for +30 Starship Targeting
Skill - Starship Targeting: +0.1515% per skill point
Weapon Mod - [Acc]: +10%, some weapons can have up to three for +30%
Deflector - Omega: +15 to +17.5 Starship Targeting
Console - Nukara Particle Converter: +10% (Beams)
Console - Dynamic Tactical System: +30 Starship Targeting
Console - Dominion Coordination Protocol: +10%
Gear Set - 2pc Dominion: +10%
DOFF - Conn (Tactical Team +Acc/Per): +5%, can 3stack for +15%
Bonus Defense
Trait (General) - Elusive: +10%
Trait (Premium) - Inspirational Leader: +10 Starship Maneuvers, can 3stack for +30 Starship Maneuvers
Skill - Starship Maneuvers: +0.1515% per skill point
Impulse Speed (@0): -15%
Impulse Speed (@24/+): +45%
Engine - Aegis: +5%
Engine - Reman: +24.4 to +26.2 Starship Maneuvers
Console - Cloak: +25%
Console - Impulse Capacitance Cell: +325%
Console - Dominion Coordination Protocol: +10%
Console - Dominion Command Interface: -16.7%
Console - Molecular Phase Inversion Field: +100%
Gear Set - 2pc Aegis: +5%
Gear Set - 2pc Dominion: +10%
Device - Subspace Field Modulator: +15%
Device - Deuterium Surplus: +15%
Ability - Cloak: +25%
Ability - Enhanced/Battle Cloak: +50%
Ability - Evasive Maneuvers: +0 to +25%
Ability - Attack Pattern Omega: I can't remember the convoluted formula for this offhand (it's in another thread out there, based on Impulse Speed, Starship Attack Patterns, whether you're in an Escort, etc, etc, etc to determine the percentage of the listed bonus you actually receive)
Escort/Heavy Escort Carrier/Destroyer/Raider/Raptor: +10% (does not include the JHEC and the Risian Corvette is speed based up to +15%)
I'm probably still forgetting stuff...there's just so much out there, here and there...meh.
edit: Thanks to poeddude for pointing out I forgot the Escort bonus. Like I said, there was more that I was probably forgetting.
edit2: Thanks again to poeddude for the Corvette numbers that I forgot about.
The abundance of sources of Acc and Def are not the real problem, just that it stacks in a stupid way. The vast majoirty of people's total bonus accuracy comes from 9 points in the relevent skill, the Accurate trait and any weapon ACC mods. For a total bonus of between 25% and 55%. Almost everyone specs into the skill for Defence, Elusive, Moves over 24 speed and flies an escort for a total bonus of around 80%. Add to that romulan boffs and, my risan ship for example, you easily have a ship flying around at 100+% Defence.
Standard Acc bonus 25-55%
Standard Def bonus 80-100%
Sure you can try to stack Accuracy to match some of these nuts defence values but you severely gimp your build to do so.
Hell, if it weren't for the minimum chance to hit a ship being 25% nothing, not even ACC x3 weapons, would touch a properly built escort. The very fact that this 25% minimum has to exist in the game is evidence that it is poorly designed.
I'm not sure I've ever seen somebody be so wrong...in a single post. You should get some kind of Forum Title for that...
But this is the gem of it...imho.
You're giving folks a standard Bonus Accuracy of ~55%. For them only to have a 25% to-hit, the person they're targeting would need to have a Bonus Defense of ~348%. Yep, that's the 25% to-hit on the guy that just popped the Impulse Cell on top of what he had otherwise.
That 55% vs. 80% is an 80% to-hit. 55% vs. 100% is 68.9/69% to-hit depending on how you want to round.
You were correct about the folly in trying to chase +Def w/ +Acc. Can't be done. Sure, you can give yourself a more reasonable chance to hit, but there's too much +Def to try to get back to that 100% to-hit by chasing +Def w/ +Acc. Luckily, even though there are a bunch of escape mechanisms - there are a bunch of things one can do to park somebody (more easily done in a team environment where they can be chained). This creates the scenario where you're going to be better off with CrtH/CrtD depending on the weapon than Acc...etc, etc, etc.
Accuracy minus defence equals chance to be hit.
100% Acc - 100% defence = 0 hits.
(100% Acc + 50% bonus Acc) - (100% defence + 50% bonus defence) = 0 hits.
(100% Acc + 20% bonus Acc) - (100% defence + 50% bonus defence) = 0 hits.
The minimum chance to be hit always comes into the equation.
Oh and base accuracy is 95%. The tooltip says so.
3 people using one account?
Just some food for thought:
Simple test. A ship sitting still with 3 extend shields on it taking fire vs a ship being fired on whilst moving. Who would take more damage? Answer this and you'll see the op is comical at best.
It's more about resistance than defence to survive. Always has been. If your theory was true, everyone would have been talogout Jones in this game.
Go to school.
And again:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/124307/STOAccuracyvsDefense.xls
And this one's for free: Tooltips are like Garey Busey on acid trying to talk his way out of a speeding ticket.
the way to survive is situational , there are many ways : speed , healing , shield damage reduction , battle cloak...etc . Each have its own pro/cons , but what is realy broken is stacking many on an escort and people usualy blame the defence for that, which is wrong.
Actually it is about both.
Let us say you have 1k HP.
Then you add 50% resistance. Now you have 2k effective HP.
Then let us add 50% miss rate to the enemy. Now you have 4k effective HP (after averaging out the RNG element).
At the end of the day only one thing rules all.
IF x > 1
x * x > x + x
So grab all the ***** you can and have fun.
Anyway, is anybody concerned about how far up the other ladder you can go these days, with every sign that it will continue?
Take a look at the list virus came up with and see how many are tied to movement. Okay. Much of the def power creep can still be sidestepped, while the acc power creep continues. We can reasonably see a Romulan beating a non-Romulan by +50 with a hold. In that case the already lopsided crith and critd are going to get worse by 6% crith and 25 crtd. Are we that jaded now? We used to think slotting the borg, temporal, and rom consoles for less than that in crith and critd was badass.
I'm not saying one way or the other what's good or bad. I was in some Tyler Durden's last night and people were surviving "vape" builds, so maybe it is progressing appropriately.
Except that's *not* "real life" in the context of Starship combat (ground PVP, yes - in fact a character should be vapour as soon as their shield fails), but that's not the subject here.
One of the really jarring aspects of STO when compared to a more serious game - say, Star Fleet Battles - is that ships *don't* degrade from damage. Whereas, assuming that starships work like their maritime counterparts, a ship which has taken numerous hits, on the verge of a hull collapse, and with most of its crew incapacitated is not going do do much at all. Unless it's the Enterprise, of course.
You could probably model this in-game by having weapons, consoles and BOff/DOff powers drop offline as hull decreased. But it would be a fundamental change to the game and is thus inconcievable.
Here endeth the nitpick
yeah, starfleet command had that and numerous other star trek games...once your hull got low, systems went offline one by one, but could be repaired. repair time depending on your crew size.