Too many Battle Cloakers in PvP

ltdata96

First of all: This is not a whiny "I want a Battlecloak on my Defiant/Gal-X" - Thread.
It's about Romulans and the advantages of their Battle Cloaks in PvP.
I decided to return to PvP after LoR launched after a long "PvP Break", and i recognised that the team with more romulans is usually the winning team (yeah i even saw a Fed-Rom Fleet T'vario team beat up Klingons)

It seems like the Battle Cloak is a significant Advantage in PvP (although i never PvPed with a Battle Cloaking ship myself), that was earlier only available to BoPs and they had to sacrifice lots of Hull, Shield strength and a Weapon slot for it, compared to ships with a standard cloak/no cloak.

Now with the Romulans you have ships that have Battle Cloaks AND full hull/shield strength and a 4/3 (Yes even 5/3) Weapons layout, and they have to give up NOTHING for it (i dont see the Sing cores as a disadvantage in this case, since you get the Sing abilities in exchange for some energy) i see Feds and even Klingons fall behind in competitive combat.

I've got a great example for this, let's just compare the Fleet Ha'feh Assault Warbird (http://sto.gamepedia.com/Fleet_Ha%27feh_Assault_Warbird) to the Fleet Tactical Escort Retrofit (http://sto.gamepedia.com/Fleet_Tactical_Escort_Retrofit)
The Fleet Ha'Feh has 1.1k more Hull, 0.99 Shields (compared to 0.9) , an (Integrated!) Battle Cloak, More Crew and a more useful BOFF layout at the expense of ... 1 Turn and 30 Inertia, Srsly!?

2nd Example: Fleet T'varo Light Warbird Retrofit (http://sto.gamepedia.com/Fleet_T%27varo_Light_Warbird_Retrofit) against the B'rel Fleet Bird-of-Prey Retrofit (http://sto.gamepedia.com/B%27rel_Fleet_Bird-of-Prey_Retrofit)

Okay, let's go...
The T'vario has ...
... 5k(!) More hull, 0.11 more Shields, okay, it has less turn rate i admit, one more boff (yeah the b'rel is universal, but anyways...) and the better console layout...

my 3rd Example was the Scimitar (because the Shields-while-cloaked console is another HUGE advantage) vs the Gal-X (the Fed ship that comes closest to the Scim), but i recognise that's ridiculous, so i leave it out.

EDIT: I want to add one more thing i forgot (the most annoying one and probably the most unfair advantage): They can cloak whenever they want, even if i get someone down to let's say 10% hp, he battle cloaks, heals again and never died (with luck i could get him with a HY torp, but its likely that it's not available in that moment or that it's a scimitar with shield-cloak)

In my opinion this is a MASSIVE balancing issue, that most players don't even recognise because they don't PvP.

Please Comment and Discuss, any comments are welcome, also those against my opinion, but please no Rage/Spam comments

havam

Sorry to be so blunt: WAD.

Rommies have massive advantages outside of battle cloak.

OP by design.

ltdata96

havam wrote: »

Sorry to be so blunt: WAD.

Rommies have massive advantages outside of battle cloak.

OP by design.

I don't even want to start discussing all unbalance given to Roms (starting from Traits to free Crit/Cloak - Boffs) that would take too long, i would just like to hear if other (FED) PvP players also share my opinion /don't share it (and why they don't)

dalolorn

As you yourself stated in the OP... don't care. :P

Do I see it, though? *nods in response to his own question*

jellico1

with the Massive crit chance a romulan has about 50% more overall DPS on Avg any class

plus battle cloak without using a console slot

A better singularity core over the TRIBBLE core's

Double the amout of duty officers you can recruit for free

overall better ships and Boff layouts except maybe in science

It is clear cryptic wants everyone to roll new characters buy new ships to remain competitive because your old Fed and klingon characters ae now inferior in almost every way to the new romulan characters in space

many in our fleet are close too 10K avg Dps some over 10k dps with there romulans ships
Romulans in some lock box ships are much higher in dps

Crit chance is WAY out of hand

Go romulan or go home

adverbero

the thing that pisses me off is i can't blind fire at them

The number of times i KNOW where they are still and am not allowed to fire, i just wish i was allowed to hit Fire at will and have a full ventral phaser spread , and i should be aloud to fire a single torpedo at whatever i hit in the spread


in my opinion it would somewhat reduce the ability to hide in cloak near to your target and pounce on them , giving some limited balance back in favor of the non cloaking player

darthpetersen

Is there a chance, that you can interrupt cloaking if you hit the ship while activating the cloak?

stardestroyer001

darthpetersen wrote: »

Is there a chance, that you can interrupt cloaking if you hit the ship while activating the cloak?

Only if the cloak in question is NOT a Battle Cloak (Defiant or Gal-X cloak, for example). Battle cloaks can still finish their cloaking cycle regardless of being hit or not.

ltdata96

stardestroyer001 wrote: »

Only if the cloak in question is NOT a Battle Cloak (Defiant or Gal-X cloak, for example). Battle cloaks can still finish their cloaking cycle regardless of being hit or not.

And that's the point, they can escape, even if theyre heavily damaged, if i am, i can run away but they'll chase me, and i have (nearly) no chance to escape... And that makes the whole thing frustrating

shadowwraith77

darthpetersen wrote: »

Is there a chance, that you can interrupt cloaking if you hit the ship while activating the cloak?

Yes but it requires you to have to knock out their aux power completely to 0.

mustafatennick

If it bother you so much roll a rom I did and never looked back

If it doesn't bother you enough to do that then suffer the decloak alpha and smile

Pwe/ cryptic don't care about balance the lockbox started it the romulans will finish it all they care about is bank balance

I love my fed in his andorian beast but wouldn't take it near an erena if someone paid me a million dilithium

Tip for you though make friends with a sci we roms hates them there scis

hereticknight085

darthpetersen wrote: »

Is there a chance, that you can interrupt cloaking if you hit the ship while activating the cloak?

Tractor Beam, PSW, Emission Seeking Torp, Photonic Shockwave Torp. Suddenly, they aren't cloaking anymore! O.o

davidwford

I get your frustration with the Battlecloak, especially as it pretains to Fed vs. Fed matches. It makes Fed vs. Fed matches almost indistinguishable from Fed vs. KDF or KDF vs. KDF space matches.

Shortly before they bumped up the starting level for KDF to Commander, KDF stopped playing KDf vs. KDF space matches with only a few exceptions (private matches being the most noteable). For some reason, players didn't want to play in a match when it was entirely possible that they would all remain cloaked (think an all BOP match). The Romulan cloaking now brings that characteristic to previously non-cloaking Fed vs. Fed matches. Maybe now there can be more KDF vs. KDF space matches.

mimey2

I feel the primary issue isn't really the battle cloaks, it's the fact that they give up nothing for them pretty much.

BoPs had the only BCs in the game for a LONG time. They paid for those BCs with much lower shields and hull. They also had the beauty of getting full universal layouts, so they had some pretty big advantages, but if you got caught in battle, you were dead pretty much. A BC could be used, but if you were weak and still getting shot at, you were dead almost guaranteed.

Romulan ships though really don't pay. Sure they are kinda slower in general, worse inertia ratings, and the 'lower' base power level, but honestly...that's all. I mean, with all the turn-rate boosts that have come through, turn isn't a huge deal, while inertia can be dealt with by skill.

The 'lower' power I don't consider a disadvantage, because it's still easy to keep pretty good power levels on a Warbird. Maybe not the extreme level of non-Rom ships, but still good. Plus I don't doubt in the slightest that one day they will release some kind of power creep somethingorother that eliminates any power need they might have.

Yeah...Romulans need to PAY for those cloaks like most other ships have in the past, but they don't.

tmassx

I don't know how many pvp are you played but the two most powerfull tactics in pvp contains a ships without battlecloaks. Even If you're lucky on a good team with all cloaks, you probably lose only 15-2 or 15-3 with timeship cheese or cruiserballs premade team. Look on gravity well doff , multiple inversion fields and subnukes , a web mines, 0 crew from the beginning of the match thanks theta vents and than saying something about game balance and battlecloaks
IMO the only thing where you are right is OP Tvaro. Full buffed and with the big red ball (plasma destabilizer) you can destroy instantly everyone who can not react quickly enough (1-2 sec). I saw in the show, that crew of TOS had a lot more time. To much firepower on a small ship. But we know , Cryptic likes these "small beasts" like supertanky jembug ship.

tmassx

But OK i have idea on next lock-box console:
Hirogen stealth detector: If activated will reveal all cloaked targets within a radius of 15 km for 5 sec every 15 seconds at the cost of -15 auxiliary power.

Why hirogen? Because they are the most efficient hunters in the Galaxy and they must have something to catch the masked targets.

ltdata96

tmassx wrote: »

I don't know how many pvp are you played but the two most powerfull tactics in pvp contains a ships without battlecloaks. Even If you're lucky on a good team with all cloaks, you probably lose only 15-2 or 15-3 with timeship cheese or cruiserballs premade team. Look on gravity well doff , multiple inversion fields and subnukes , a web mines, 0 crew from the beginning of the match thanks theta vents and than saying something about game balance and battlecloaks
IMO the only thing where you are right is OP Tvaro. Full buffed and with the big red ball (plasma destabilizer) you can destroy instantly everyone who can not react quickly enough (1-2 sec). I saw in the show, that crew of TOS had a lot more time. To much firepower on a small ship. But we know , Cryptic likes these "small beasts" like supertanky jembug ship.

I admit you're right with the t'varios are most over powered, but other warbirds are OP too, as already said they don't have to give up anything for their BC...

jetwtf

tmassx wrote: »

Why hirogen? Because they are the most efficient hunters in the Galaxy and they must have something to catch the masked targets.

Hirogen like to set up traps and hide cloaked by them. A cloaked ship shows up and drops cloak to investigate the trap and the hirogen will pounce. If it flies by ignoring the trap the Hirogen wait for other prey.

whamhammer1

tmassx wrote: »

But OK i have idea on next lock-box console:
Hirogen stealth detector: If activated will reveal all cloaked targets within a radius of 15 km for 5 sec every 15 seconds at the cost of -15 auxiliary power.

Why hirogen? Because they are the most efficient hunters in the Galaxy and they must have something to catch the masked targets.

When the Nebula came out, it was a great counter to cloakers, except that the delay is too long on the ability and for it to really find cloakers it wasn't much with fire support and depended on other Fed's to inflict the damage. The biggest problem is that Fed's cant seem to work together to save their hides.

stardestroyer001

mimey2 wrote: »

I feel the primary issue isn't really the battle cloaks, it's the fact that they give up nothing for them pretty much.

BoPs had the only BCs in the game for a LONG time. They paid for those BCs with much lower shields and hull. They also had the beauty of getting full universal layouts, so they had some pretty big advantages, but if you got caught in battle, you were dead pretty much. A BC could be used, but if you were weak and still getting shot at, you were dead almost guaranteed.

Romulan ships though really don't pay. Sure they are kinda slower in general, worse inertia ratings, and the 'lower' base power level, but honestly...that's all. I mean, with all the turn-rate boosts that have come through, turn isn't a huge deal, while inertia can be dealt with by skill.

The 'lower' power I don't consider a disadvantage, because it's still easy to keep pretty good power levels on a Warbird. Maybe not the extreme level of non-Rom ships, but still good. Plus I don't doubt in the slightest that one day they will release some kind of power creep somethingorother that eliminates any power need they might have.

Yeah...Romulans need to PAY for those cloaks like most other ships have in the past, but they don't.

Perhaps Romulan Battle Cloaks should be moved off innate and made into universal consoles.

[Console - Universal - Romulan Battle Cloaking Device] or similar.

ltdata96

stardestroyer001 wrote: »

Perhaps Romulan Battle Cloaks should be moved off innate and made into universal consoles.

[Console - Universal - Romulan Battle Cloaking Device] or similar.

I agree! To make all cloaks consoles would at least partially solve the problem - because then you have to think twice before mounting a cloaing device on your ship.

trhrangerxml

Neither Rom ship, nor FED ship has a clear advantage over the other. Rom ships have a Battlecloak that drop shields when activated in combat, have -10 power lvl build in, but have build in singularity powers which are half as powerful as their console/BOFF power counter part, FED ships are tough, strong selection of science based ships which can be turned into insane cloak smashers, better escort variety with mostly a +15 to power lvls to weapons and a good selection of cruiser that can take any incoming DMG from a Rom ship (even the dreaded Cloak/Alpha/BO). I have 14 lvl 50 toons, of all varieties of set ups, and I can tell you that no one class has a clear advantage over another, its just playing to that set ups strong points and knowing your weakness.

chainfall

stardestroyer001 wrote: »

Perhaps Romulan Battle Cloaks should be moved off innate and made into universal consoles.

[Console - Universal - Romulan Battle Cloaking Device] or similar.

Universal? No, Tactical.

sander233

LOL wut the Romulans are being too sneaky?

I want to show you something...

tmassx

Try hangar pets with antiproton sweep, i am surprised than more people not playing them , they are effective against cloakers.

Of course a pets with tractor beams also work well.

trhrangerxml

tmassx wrote: »

Try hangar pets with antiproton sweep, i am surprised than more people not playing them , they are effective against cloakers.

Of course a pets with tractor beams also work well.

Thank you, Stalker Fighters, JHAS, Runabouts (especially Yellowstones), etc all great anti cloak gear. Also, Jem set, gets stealth detection and anti-proton sweet, use in combination with EPtAux and you have some embarrassingly naked ships flying around. Photonic Shockwave as soon as you even get the hint there is a cloaked ship in striking range (like you hear the buffing).

jiitol

adverbero wrote: »

the thing that pisses me off is i can't blind fire at them

The number of times i KNOW where they are still and am not allowed to fire, i just wish i was allowed to hit Fire at will and have a full ventral phaser spread , and i should be aloud to fire a single torpedo at whatever i hit in the spread


in my opinion it would somewhat reduce the ability to hide in cloak near to your target and pounce on them , giving some limited balance back in favor of the non cloaking player

Haven't tried the PvP here yet, but sadly this is a Cryptic mainstay. They target on a die roll and you have to have a target to roll. It is horrible in two ways; you can't blind shoot and you can't cloak/dodge anything already fired/rolled.

hereticknight085

ltdata96 wrote: »

I agree! To make all cloaks consoles would at least partially solve the problem - because then you have to think twice before mounting a cloaing device on your ship.

Heh... and this will do what to KDF BoPs? You know that will hurt them badly, since they already lose 1 console compared to other ships, and now you're going to charge them another? Typical fed.

davidwford

hereticknight085 wrote: »

Heh... and this will do what to KDF BoPs? You know that will hurt them badly, since they already lose 1 console compared to other ships, and now you're going to charge them another? Typical fed.

Unless they add another console to EACH and EVERY ship that has a cloaking device or a Battle Cloak. The only reasonable way to make the Battle Cloak a console is to repeat what they did to the built in cloak for the Defiant, Galaxy-X, in addition to the built in powers for the Galaxy and Intrepid.

ltdata96

hereticknight085 wrote: »

Heh... and this will do what to KDF BoPs? You know that will hurt them badly, since they already lose 1 console compared to other ships, and now you're going to charge them another? Typical fed.

Hmmm... I haven't thought about that, (the thing is that a guy with a KDF forum-pic oruginally suggested this :P). Anyways, the BoPs needed a small hull/shield buff then or something to compensate (you can't make 11 console ships), what makes this complicated again...

EDIT: How do they already lose a console? Fleet BoPs have 10 as all other fleet/bundle/special ships

majortiraomega

1. All Cloaks should be battle cloaks, do away with the KDF/Defiant/Galaxy-X standard cloak and give them Battle Cloak.
2. Nerf all Romulan Hull/Shield modifiers by 5% to compensate for Battle Cloak/Singularity Powers
3. Correct the Federation/KDF Warp Cores to actually give the +7.5 power bonus all the time, not just when the subsystem is set to 15. Also decrease the cooldown on the very rare capacitor to 1 minute 30 seconds.
4. Add a larger shared cooldown between battle cloak and singularity powers so that Romulan Escorts cannot drop out of cloak, alpha strike, use singularity jump, and cloak 5 seconds later.
5. Reduce the Romulan Critical Chance and Severety bonuses in order to bring them back in line with other bridge officers.

After that, all the problems with the Romulans will be fixed.