I think he's questioning the idea that the Intrepid was built for scientific investigation, not that it's a Cruiser. The Intrepids are super-fast and built for long-term/long-range exploration just like the Connie. It's no-more science based then any other Cruiser.
Yeah, my internet was acting up at the time - so I didn't want to risk typing a longer reply. It's all good now, but that's along the lines of it. Almost every Starfleet vessel is built specifically to be a multi-mission vessel. The Intrepid class was more advanced than other ships at the time - but that was just a case of it being more advanced - not creating a specific role for it. One need only look at what Voyager's original mission was...
If memory serves (or, rather, if school serves), the World War II saw the biggest naval battles of the modern history.
Let's look at some of the ships that fought in the WWII and focus our attention to the weapons, the bigger the better.
So I wonder: why a MkXII array (that is a powerful and supposedly big array) can be mounted on a small ship?
I don't know if this is canon or not, but it is definitely not plausible.
And now the proposal: big weapons for big ships.
Bye / Qapla' / Jolan tru
A single modern-day, single-seat F/A-18e Super Hornet carries the firepower of an Iowa-class firing a full broadside.
Size Matters Not.
...Oh, baby, you know, I've really got to leave you / Oh, I can hear it callin 'me / I said don't you hear it callin' me the way it used to do?...
- Anne Bredon
I think he's questioning the idea that the Intrepid was built for scientific investigation, not that it's a Cruiser. The Intrepids are super-fast and built for long-term/long-range exploration just like the Connie. It's no-more science based then any other Cruiser.
Technically, all federation ships are built for long-range scientific exploration, including the Defiant. But certain ships had a bigger emphasis on exploration, others had a bigger emphasis on research, and others had a bigger emphasis on gun diplomacy.
The Constitution class had big crew complements for its size and a host of recreational facilities to support it. The Intrepid had less than half the crew and a much smaller number of recreational facilities. So what did Voyager use all of their rooms for instead of living quarters and recreational facilities? My guess is <insert technobabble> facilities.
(Have you ever wondered why the ENTERPRISE was always the only Starship in range of an event, even near the heart of the Federation? THIS is why. Consider V'Ger. There might have been other ships nearby, but warships would not be capable of studying V'Ger and science ships would not have been able to fight V'Ger. Only a STARSHIP has both capabilities.)
This has to do with the Hero Ship concept, not anything else. The Enterprise was the Hero Ship and so it gets sent out. Of course Trek has advanced some 600 episodes past the TOS era. For example, there were 40 ships at Wolf 359 - which is just a few LYS from earth. Why did they almost all die? Because they weren't the Hero Ship. If it was a DS9 episode the Defiant would have saved the day rather then the Galaxy. The size of the ship is meaningless to the needs of the story.
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
Technically, all federation ships are built for long-range scientific exploration, including the Defiant.
Technically, no. There are many classes of ship they don't send out into the unknown cosmos. The Miranda Class, for example, wasn't used for exploring the cosmos. And no, the Defiant, with it's 50 crew and bunkbeds, wasn't designed to be set into the unknown for 6 months to years at a time.
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
WARSHIPS: Escorts are not frontline combat ships. Their job is to protect other ships. They are usually lightly armed. Since that is NOT how escorts in STO are set up, they are really misnamed. I understand why. It's because on DS9 they said the Defiant was an escort. However, what the creators of the game have missed it the PAST TENSE of that. Defiant WAS an escort before Ben Sisko pimped her out.
I took that scene to mean that Starfleet had "officially" classified the Defiant as an escort, so they wouldn't have "WARSHIP" listed in their books. They had an image to maintain, after all. It wasn't that she was designed first as a light escort, and retrofitted with cannons -- the cannons were integral parts of her design, for her unofficial job of kicking TRIBBLE.
(Have you ever wondered why the ENTERPRISE was always the only Starship in range of an event, even near the heart of the Federation? THIS is why. Consider V'Ger. There might have been other ships nearby, but warships would not be capable of studying V'Ger and science ships would not have been able to fight V'Ger. Only a STARSHIP has both capabilities.)
The Enterprise is the only ship in range because plot reasons. There's often no logic to it; in Generations, the Enterprise-B is the only ship in range to respond in time to a distress call, despite their original flight plan up until that point being entirely within our solar system (where there should be many, many more ships better capable of responding to said distress call).
Same thing in ST:TMP. They were at Earth, but the Enterprise was chosen to respond to the V'Ger threat despite still wrapping up its refit.
It's all about the plot, and giving our heroes heroic things to do.
Of course, this has been thoroughly screwed up by the refits and retrofits all over the place. That should never have been done. I mean, you could never make a Fletcher Destroyer into something as powerful as an Iowa Battleship. On the other hand, each class of ship would have a distinct purpose in reality. Something we don't see here.
Anyhow, this is just a glimpse for the sake of discussion. I've told them about this sort of thing many times over the years and been ignored. I prefer not to waste my time and energy trying to improve a game that they have no interest in improving.
Honestly, the improvements the game needs mostly involve giving us things to do with our ships, not revamping existing ships. Readdressing the terminology doesn't give me more fun things to do.
Technically, no. There are many classes of ship they don't send out into the unknown cosmos. The Miranda Class, for example, wasn't used for exploring the cosmos. And no, the Defiant, with it's 50 crew and bunkbeds, wasn't designed to be set into the unknown for 6 months to years at a time.
Okay, maybe the long-term part was an embellishment, but all federation ships ARE built for scientific exploration. There were a couple of DS9 episodes where the Defiant was on a mission to explore parts of the Gamma Quadrant, for example.
Okay, maybe the long-term part was an embellishment, but all federation ships ARE built for scientific exploration. There were a couple of DS9 episodes where the Defiant was on a mission to explore parts of the Gamma Quadrant, for example.
The Defiant was generally sent because it was a hostile environment that would make using a Runabout too hazardous - though Runabouts did go and do the exploring prior to DS9 getting the Defiant.
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
The Defiant was generally sent because it was a hostile environment that would make using a Runabout too hazardous - though Runabouts did go and do the exploring prior to DS9 getting the Defiant.
I never understood Starfleet.
let's send a Galaxy class star ship built to explore the grand unknown reaches of space to explore somewhat known space, that is close enough to respond to anything going on at the Neutral zone....but let's send fancy shuttles and random civilian ships to the other side of the Galaxy where we have no idea what's there.
The Defiant was generally sent because it was a hostile environment that would make using a Runabout too hazardous - though Runabouts did go and do the exploring prior to DS9 getting the Defiant.
And the runabout is a federation ship with warp drive capabilities. Like I said, all federation ships are built for scientific exploration.
let's send a Galaxy class star ship built to explore the grand unknown reaches of space to explore somewhat known space, that is close enough to respond to anything going on at the Neutral zone....but let's send fancy shuttles and random civilian ships to the other side of the Galaxy where we have no idea what's there.
I've always assumed no Trek series writer was ever in the military.
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
let's send a Galaxy class star ship built to explore the grand unknown reaches of space to explore somewhat known space, that is close enough to respond to anything going on at the Neutral zone....but let's send fancy shuttles and random civilian ships to the other side of the Galaxy where we have no idea what's there.
It only makes logical sense to send small survey vessels like Runabouts to an unknown region of space. The potential loss in manpower and resources is very low in that instance.
Furthermore, Starfleet did send a Galaxy-class starship to the Gamma Quadrant. It was then promptly blown up by the Dominion with all hands lost.
And the runabout is a federation ship with warp drive capabilities. Like I said, all federation ships are built for scientific exploration.
If you believe warp drive makes a ship a scientific exploration vessel I've got some Peregrine Fighters and Courier vessels to sell you.
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
I've always assumed no Trek series writer was ever in the military.
So you'd rather send a ship designed to serve as flagship of the Federation with over 1,000 Starfleet personnel, civilians and children to an unknown and potentially incredibly dangerous region of space, instead of a two-man crew on a Runabout?
It only makes logical sense to send small survey vessels like Runabouts to an unknown region of space. The potential loss in manpower and resources is very low in that instance.
Then why did they spend so many centuries sending Connies, Excelsiors, Ambassadors, Galaxies, etc out into the unknown to explore?
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
So you'd rather send a ship designed to serve as flagship of the Federation with over 1,000 Starfleet personnel, civilians and children to an unknown and potentially incredibly dangerous region of space, instead of a two-man crew on a Runabout?
Yeah. That's what they were built for: to go into unknown space and explore, meet new species, etc. That's what they did from day 1 - to boldly go where no man has gone before.
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
If you believe warp drive makes a ship a scientific exploration vessel I've got some Peregrine Fighters and Courier vessels to sell you.
What makes you think the original peregrine didn't have the equipment to research and explore? After all, the peregrines in-game and on the shows were modified by the Maquis to be interceptors.
Okay, maybe the long-term part was an embellishment, but all federation ships ARE built for scientific exploration. There were a couple of DS9 episodes where the Defiant was on a mission to explore parts of the Gamma Quadrant, for example.
The Defiant being sent to do something was likely a believable case of it being the only ship in range. Plus, they were not long term missions -- a few days, maybe a week at most, and the crew were understandably moody at being stuck on that ship for so long. The Defiant didn't have astrometrics labs, or research facilities, or even a fully equipped sickbay -- it was basically a trauma center meant to stabilize injuries until they could be treated at a better equipped facility.
Remember that for the duration of the show, the Defiant was docked at a space station. It was given an assignment, and the crew would leave and come back, most often within the same day, though sometimes they stayed out for longer.
Any exploration tasks it was sent out on weren't exploration, so much as reconnaissance.
What makes you think the original peregrine didn't have the equipment to research and explore? After all, the peregrines in-game and on the shows were modified by the Maquis to be interceptors.
The Peregrine was a modified Courier Vessel.
Memory Alpha is free if you'd like to check some of your facts.
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
i always seem to think back to the few scenes in DS9 where galaxy class ships were flanking and smoking dominion ships in some scenes, in STO not so much lol
The Defiant being sent to do something was likely a believable case of it being the only ship in range. Plus, they were not long term missions -- a few days, maybe a week at most, and the crew were understandably moody at being stuck on that ship for so long. The Defiant didn't have astrometrics labs, or research facilities, or even a fully equipped sickbay -- it was basically a trauma center meant to stabilize injuries until they could be treated at a better equipped facility.
Remember that for the duration of the show, the Defiant was docked at a space station. It was given an assignment, and the crew would leave and come back, most often within the same day, though sometimes they stayed out for longer.
Any exploration tasks it was sent out on weren't exploration, so much as reconnaissance.
No ship was ever shown to have any extraneous research facilities except Voyager. And Voyagers's astrometric's lab wasn't added until years later. Anytime the TV script wanted the crew to conduct research, they would use either the bridge, sickbay, or main engineering.
i always seem to think back to the few scenes in DS9 where galaxy class ships were flanking and smoking dominion ships in some scenes, in STO not so much lol
We all remember those scenes a little differently. I recall a lot of the Defiant blowing things to pieces while the Mirandas flanking it got wiped out. The Defiant was generally the Hero Ship and got the lion's share of the glory.
Of course in PvE it's not as though Cruisers can't beat AI enemies. I've seen plenty of Cruiser builds that do 8k+ DPS and blow enemies to bits too. Not doing it as quickly as an Escort doesn't mean it can't do it.
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
Being a courier vessel doesn't mean it can't research and explore.
The Galaxy class is an explorer, but by your logic, it can't fight.
Honestly dude, at this point it's like you know you've lost but you're going to keep arguing because you think you can outlast the truth.
A Courier Vessels job was to carry people and small things quickly from Point A to Point B - such as carrying Spock to the Enterprise after it left to meet V'ger. A Courier Vessels job was not to go and explore the galaxy just because it had warp drive.
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
A Courier Vessels job was to carry people and small things quickly from Point A to Point B - such as carrying Spock to the Enterprise after it left to meet V'ger. A Courier Vessels job was not to go and explore the galaxy just because it had warp drive.
It's possible that such a vessel could be effective at exploring the galaxy, or for diplomatic functions. Look at the SS Raven, effectively an oversized Runabout/small survey ship. The Hansens repurposed it for chasing Borg ships and scanning them.
stardestroyer001, Admiral, Explorers Fury PvE/PvP Fleet | Retired PvP Player
Missing the good ol' days of PvP: Legacy of Romulus to Season 9 My List of Useful Links, Recently Updated November 25 2017!
Honestly dude, at this point it's like you know you've lost but you're going to keep arguing because you think you can outlast the truth.
A Courier Vessels job was to carry people and small things quickly from Point A to Point B - such as carrying Spock to the Enterprise after it left to meet V'ger. A Courier Vessels job was not to go and explore the galaxy just because it had warp drive.
How many times did the Enterprise carry cargo from point A to point B?
How many times did the Enterprise escort something?
How many times did the Enterprise patrol an already known section of space?
You've been nitpicking at every little thing I've said from the start and you want to tell me that I'm "going to keep arguing because you think you can outlast the truth"? Uh huh.
We all remember those scenes a little differently. I recall a lot of the Defiant blowing things to pieces while the Mirandas flanking it got wiped out. The Defiant was generally the Hero Ship and got the lion's share of the glory.
Of course in PvE it's not as though Cruisers can't beat AI enemies. I've seen plenty of Cruiser builds that do 8k+ DPS and blow enemies to bits too. Not doing it as quickly as an Escort doesn't mean it can't do it.
I always did feel sorry for the crews of those poor mirandas lol. you know when you graduated from the acadamy durring the dominion war and found out you were getting put on a miranda you just went *face palm* :P
Comments
Yeah, my internet was acting up at the time - so I didn't want to risk typing a longer reply. It's all good now, but that's along the lines of it. Almost every Starfleet vessel is built specifically to be a multi-mission vessel. The Intrepid class was more advanced than other ships at the time - but that was just a case of it being more advanced - not creating a specific role for it. One need only look at what Voyager's original mission was...
A single modern-day, single-seat F/A-18e Super Hornet carries the firepower of an Iowa-class firing a full broadside.
Size Matters Not.
...Oh, baby, you know, I've really got to leave you / Oh, I can hear it callin 'me / I said don't you hear it callin' me the way it used to do?...
- Anne Bredon
Technically, all federation ships are built for long-range scientific exploration, including the Defiant. But certain ships had a bigger emphasis on exploration, others had a bigger emphasis on research, and others had a bigger emphasis on gun diplomacy.
The Constitution class had big crew complements for its size and a host of recreational facilities to support it. The Intrepid had less than half the crew and a much smaller number of recreational facilities. So what did Voyager use all of their rooms for instead of living quarters and recreational facilities? My guess is <insert technobabble> facilities.
I took that scene to mean that Starfleet had "officially" classified the Defiant as an escort, so they wouldn't have "WARSHIP" listed in their books. They had an image to maintain, after all. It wasn't that she was designed first as a light escort, and retrofitted with cannons -- the cannons were integral parts of her design, for her unofficial job of kicking TRIBBLE.
The Enterprise is the only ship in range because plot reasons. There's often no logic to it; in Generations, the Enterprise-B is the only ship in range to respond in time to a distress call, despite their original flight plan up until that point being entirely within our solar system (where there should be many, many more ships better capable of responding to said distress call).
Same thing in ST:TMP. They were at Earth, but the Enterprise was chosen to respond to the V'Ger threat despite still wrapping up its refit.
It's all about the plot, and giving our heroes heroic things to do.
Honestly, the improvements the game needs mostly involve giving us things to do with our ships, not revamping existing ships. Readdressing the terminology doesn't give me more fun things to do.
Okay, maybe the long-term part was an embellishment, but all federation ships ARE built for scientific exploration. There were a couple of DS9 episodes where the Defiant was on a mission to explore parts of the Gamma Quadrant, for example.
I never understood Starfleet.
let's send a Galaxy class star ship built to explore the grand unknown reaches of space to explore somewhat known space, that is close enough to respond to anything going on at the Neutral zone....but let's send fancy shuttles and random civilian ships to the other side of the Galaxy where we have no idea what's there.
And the runabout is a federation ship with warp drive capabilities. Like I said, all federation ships are built for scientific exploration.
It only makes logical sense to send small survey vessels like Runabouts to an unknown region of space. The potential loss in manpower and resources is very low in that instance.
Furthermore, Starfleet did send a Galaxy-class starship to the Gamma Quadrant. It was then promptly blown up by the Dominion with all hands lost.
So you'd rather send a ship designed to serve as flagship of the Federation with over 1,000 Starfleet personnel, civilians and children to an unknown and potentially incredibly dangerous region of space, instead of a two-man crew on a Runabout?
What makes you think the original peregrine didn't have the equipment to research and explore? After all, the peregrines in-game and on the shows were modified by the Maquis to be interceptors.
The Defiant being sent to do something was likely a believable case of it being the only ship in range. Plus, they were not long term missions -- a few days, maybe a week at most, and the crew were understandably moody at being stuck on that ship for so long. The Defiant didn't have astrometrics labs, or research facilities, or even a fully equipped sickbay -- it was basically a trauma center meant to stabilize injuries until they could be treated at a better equipped facility.
Remember that for the duration of the show, the Defiant was docked at a space station. It was given an assignment, and the crew would leave and come back, most often within the same day, though sometimes they stayed out for longer.
Any exploration tasks it was sent out on weren't exploration, so much as reconnaissance.
Memory Alpha is free if you'd like to check some of your facts.
No ship was ever shown to have any extraneous research facilities except Voyager. And Voyagers's astrometric's lab wasn't added until years later. Anytime the TV script wanted the crew to conduct research, they would use either the bridge, sickbay, or main engineering.
Being a courier vessel doesn't mean it can't research and explore.
The Galaxy class is an explorer, but by your logic, it can't fight.
Of course in PvE it's not as though Cruisers can't beat AI enemies. I've seen plenty of Cruiser builds that do 8k+ DPS and blow enemies to bits too. Not doing it as quickly as an Escort doesn't mean it can't do it.
so you want cruisers to be escorts because the game lacks the explore part /facepalm
A Courier Vessels job was to carry people and small things quickly from Point A to Point B - such as carrying Spock to the Enterprise after it left to meet V'ger. A Courier Vessels job was not to go and explore the galaxy just because it had warp drive.
It's possible that such a vessel could be effective at exploring the galaxy, or for diplomatic functions. Look at the SS Raven, effectively an oversized Runabout/small survey ship. The Hansens repurposed it for chasing Borg ships and scanning them.
Missing the good ol' days of PvP: Legacy of Romulus to Season 9
My List of Useful Links, Recently Updated November 25 2017!
How many times did the Enterprise carry cargo from point A to point B?
How many times did the Enterprise escort something?
How many times did the Enterprise patrol an already known section of space?
You've been nitpicking at every little thing I've said from the start and you want to tell me that I'm "going to keep arguing because you think you can outlast the truth"? Uh huh.
I always did feel sorry for the crews of those poor mirandas lol. you know when you graduated from the acadamy durring the dominion war and found out you were getting put on a miranda you just went *face palm* :P