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The Photonic Officer Build, mostly for sci-heavy ships

mimey2mimey2 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
Note, that this isn't perfect by any stretch of the imagination. Nor is it the newest idea (and by extension, obviously I'm not the originator of the idea), but it's just something I've been working on, and wanted to mention to let people try out for themselves and maybe help a few folks out in the process.



At it's core, this build is primarily meant to help sci-heavy ships and carriers, not as much for tac or engy heavy ships, which will either be better with other builds.

Now, at th very least, you require the following:

1. A lt or higher level Sci slot on a ship
2. A copy of Photonic Officer 1 or higher
3. A Photonic Studies Scientist DOFF, very rare (might be able to get away with rare), that reduces the cooldown on PO and PSW.

Now, some info on Photonic Officer: It reduces the cooldown on all BOFF abilities by a certain percentage, but not quite in the way you expect. PO 3 for example reduces cooldowns by 40%, but not how you think.

It's formula is this: Original cooldown divided by 1.-- equals the new cooldown. The '--' being equal so whatever the % the ability says.

So, take Gravity well, which has a 60 second CD. 60/1.4 equals 42.85 seconds. So it shaves off about 17 seconds. To compare, PO 1 is a 24% reduction at 48.38 seconds (12 second reduction), while PO 2 is 32% reduction at 45.45 seconds (15 second reduction).

Now, PO also affects it's own cooldown on top of that, to the point that the PSS DOFF and PO itself will pretty much be guaranteed to keep it's own cooldown at global (which is 2 minutes).

Keep in mind that PO lasts for 1 minute, and affects any BOFF cooldowns during that time. It is also a blue buff, which means it cannot be SNB'd off.

With that all said, this build can go further, if you are willing to use specific gear on your ship.

The first piece being the Elite Fleet Deflectors (all of them), which have the 'SciCmdr' modifier, which reduces ALL sci powers by 10%. That goes for both BOFF and sci captain powers. Keep in mind that the CD reduction is pretty much also based on the same formula as PO.

They do add together, so...PO 1 reduction, plus Elite deflector reduction for Gravity well...

PO 1: 48.38 seconds (or about 12 seconds)
Elite deflector: 54.54 seconds (or about 6 seconds)
Actual cooldown: About 42 seconds.


Now, you can go one step further, and add in the MACO shields and engines (any mk, as long as the two pieces match, will give the same bonus here), which grants the two-piece bonus of 'Magnetoplasma Relays', which reduces ALL cooldowns (BOFFs, captain powers, weapons, everything) by 5%.

So add that to the other two things above, and you have another 3 seconds or so taken off, putting Gravity well at about 39 seconds CD. And you will use Gravity well again most likely before PO runs out, and thus keep your 39 second CD for the next GW you can use.

Something else to note: the smaller the base cooldown, the smaller the effect PO will have on it. For example, a Tactical Team, with it's 30 base cooldown, will be reduced to 24.19 seconds, or about a 6 second reduction in CD.

Now, PO 1 with both the MACO two piece and the Elite Deflector will keep a lot of sci BOFF skills fairly close to global, maybe not all the way, but if you wanted to run a healer with this set up, it would be pretty good. Other skills would be fairly far away from global for the most part.

PO 2 with the MACO and deflector bonuses will put all but the most stubborn sci BOFF skills to global, while bringing every other skill a step closer.

PO 3 is very nearly a guarantee to put any sci BOFF skill at global (or if it doesn't, the number is very close to global, maybe no more than a few seconds above it), while any other BOFF skill will probably be pretty close (like tac team would be at a 19-ish second cooldown)


Now...PO 1 and 2 can be gotten from a BOFF trainer, but PO 3 can be gotten from the Photonic Science Officer that can be bought off the exchange. I've heard there once was another way to get PO 3, but I do not remember what that is.

Also, the PSS DOFF can be gotten for free from the colonial chain missions in one of the star clusters, but I cannot remember which cluster it is.



Let's look at the Pros and Cons:

Pros:

Requires fewer BOFF and DOFF slots than an A2B build
Doesn't kill your Aux power, perfect for aux-requiring builds
Still provides an excellent reduction to CDs when used, especially on a sci heavy ship
Is a kind of 'click it and forget it' ability, meaning that you don't have to constantly spam an ability to keep your CDs low (presuming you aren't using keybinds of course)
PO cannot be SNB'd off, A2B can be (and also A2B is worthless if your aux power is shut down somehow)


Cons:

(Kinda-sorta con) Mostly effective on sci-heavy ships and carriers, compared to the somewhat more 'universal' A2B build.
Requires more specific gear and builds if you are wanting the most CD reduction out of it as possible.
Cannot keep cooldowns at global as easily as an A2B build
Isn't as 'at your fingertips' as A2B, because of the long CD of PO itself, which requires you to wait that one minute before you can use it again after it runs out, compared to the 10 second global CD of A2B
If you choose to use the MACO two-piece bonus, the power bonus from the MACO shield doesn't stack with Plasmonic Leech; on the other side of that coin, if you do use MACO shields and take off PL, that gives you an extra console to work with.


Neutral points:

Between the two builds, across an entire match of whatever you are doing, they are about roughly the same effectiveness. A2B more is for the 'gotta have the powers now', which is good on ships that can afford at least the two Lt. engineer slots, while the PO build more favors the 'long game' of being ok with the wait, but having everything reduced in CD for that entire minute that it is running.



Anyways, this was one heck of a post, but I hope it might help out some folks. Feel free to test and tweak it on your own to find what will work best for you. I'd enjoy seeing what people come up with.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
Post edited by mimey2 on
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Comments

  • fredscarranfredscarran Member Posts: 222 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    mimey2 wrote: »
    Now, you can go one step further, and add in the MACO shields and engines (any mk, as long as the two pieces match, will give the same bonus here), which grants the two-piece bonus of 'Magnetoplasma Relays', which reduces ALL cooldowns (BOFFs, captain powers, weapons, everything) by 5%..

    Really?....
  • mimey2mimey2 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    Really?....

    Oh yes, really. It's not a gigantic difference on most things, but it is there.
    I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
    I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
  • stirling191stirling191 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    PO is an LT level base ability correct? (IE: PO1 is at LT, PO2 is LC, PO3 Cmd).

    If so...there's a Dhelan build percolating in my brain right now...
  • doffingcomradedoffingcomrade Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    mimey2 wrote: »
    Also, the PSS DOFF can be gotten for free from the colonial chain missions in one of the star clusters, but I cannot remember which cluster it is.
    You can't remember which cluster it is because it isn't. There is no such cluster. There is no actual way to get PSS doffs beyond the usual methods of praying.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • mimey2mimey2 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    PO is an LT level base ability correct? (IE: PO1 is at LT, PO2 is LC, PO3 Cmd).

    If so...there's a Dhelan build percolating in my brain right now...

    That's correct, it begins at the Lt. level. Good luck.
    You can't remember which cluster it is because it isn't. There is no such cluster. There is no actual way to get PSS doffs beyond the usual methods of praying.

    Oh really? Wow, must've been thinking of some other DOFF. Thank you for mentioning that. Oh well, guess you cannot make this build for 'free' as I thought you would be able to. On the plus side still, not as insanely expensive for the single PSS DOFF compared to the large costs of three Technicians; or just buy two cheap, but lower level DOFFs, leaving using a purple more for the folks who want to free up a DOFF slot.
    I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
    I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
  • fonz71fonz71 Member Posts: 346 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    thank you mimey for posting this. i saw some earlier threads about the maco 2 piece plus elite deflector earlier on and tried it with some success.

    while i haven't tried it with PO yet, i am looking forward to logging on and checking it out for myself :) lucky for me i am a PSW user and already have the doff so finishing up this build will be a breeze.

    just a couple of quick questions , if ya don't mind.

    is one doff all the benefit you can get from PO, or will adding more reduce the cd further?

    is the photonic boff on the x the same as the one for lobi?

    last one, what version of PO would you recomend for me, provided i have the ability to use any of them?

    thanks for your times and this post :D
    Don't know why it says i'm an ARC user. i will never use that TRIBBLE Cryptic!
  • marc8219marc8219 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    Nice work, I'm still working on rep for my sci but will try to put something like this together soon now that I know its still viable enough with PO1 or PO2.
    Tala -KDF Tac- House of Beautiful Orions
  • chlamidiotchlamidiot Member Posts: 120 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    Does it still function with the other abilities' timers reverting to their original state (i.e. getting time added back on) when PO wears off? I've ranted about that but haven't checked for a stealth fix lately.

    If that mechanic is still in place, then here's my rant:

    http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=11798411&postcount=35

    Also: That post talks about A2B and SNB, which you have under your "Pro's."
    -notredricky
  • mimey2mimey2 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    fonz71 wrote: »
    thank you mimey for posting this. i saw some earlier threads about the maco 2 piece plus elite deflector earlier on and tried it with some success.

    while i haven't tried it with PO yet, i am looking forward to logging on and checking it out for myself :) lucky for me i am a PSW user and already have the doff so finishing up this build will be a breeze.

    just a couple of quick questions , if ya don't mind.

    is one doff all the benefit you can get from PO, or will adding more reduce the cd further?

    is the photonic boff on the x the same as the one for lobi?

    last one, what version of PO would you recomend for me, provided i have the ability to use any of them?

    thanks for your times and this post :D

    Photonic officer itself, and one purple PSS DOFF (or the equivalent to that, as in 2 green DOFFs, a blue and a white, etc), is pretty much guaranteed to keep PO at global, so any more PSS DOFFs won't help that. Only reason you might want more is to lower PSW's cooldown further.

    The Photonic BOFF in the lobi store I believe is actually the Photonic Tactical Officer, not the science one. So make sure you look for the photonic science one in the exchange if you are wanting PO 3.

    As for what level of PO, I need to ask...what class are you, and what are you flying? I know you said 'able to use any' of them, but really, what are you wanting to do?

    PO 3 with the other stuff will keep most things at, or very close to global no matter what. But only really use that if you HAVE to have everything at, or near global, and cannot get it any other way, since you do have to give up the Cmdr slot. Use PO 2 on a 'mixed' ship, like...the Nebula-R they are giving out today. It will give pretty good reductions to pretty much everything, including helping the more longer CD engy abilities, like RSP for example.
    Have PO 1 on a more 'pure' sci ship. Like an Intrepid-R, because you have the elite deflector, PO, and MACO all helping to reduce CDs on a large majority of your abilities all the time.

    That's just my opinions of course. My biggest recommendation is to test your build with PO 1 first, see how it works, then PO 2, and see how they differ, and if those are good enough. If they don't feel like enough to you, then PO 3 is most likely your choice.
    marc8219 wrote: »
    Nice work, I'm still working on rep for my sci but will try to put something like this together soon now that I know its still viable enough with PO1 or PO2.

    Yeah, I would say it is pretty effective with PO 1 or 2, depending on your build.
    chlamidiot wrote: »
    Does it still function with the other abilities' timers reverting to their original state (i.e. getting time added back on) when PO wears off? I've ranted about that but haven't checked for a stealth fix lately.

    If that mechanic is still in place, then here's my rant:

    http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=11798411&postcount=35

    Also: That post talks about A2B and SNB, which you have under your "Pro's."

    I remember that post, mostly since it was in my previous thread in regards to PO and such.

    That aside, I cannot remember off the top of my head if they do or not. I want to say that they do not revert back. But I will need to get back into the game soon and make sure.
    I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
    I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
  • fonz71fonz71 Member Posts: 346 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    mimey2 wrote: »
    snip/
    As for what level of PO, I need to ask...what class are you, and what are you flying? I know you said 'able to use any' of them, but really, what are you wanting to do? snip\


    thanks again, and sorry for the delay. i was in game trying out the new freebies. ^^


    to answer your question, i will be sci flying the korath. as to what i am trying to do, i would like to reduce my boff abilities as much as possible without using a2b, as i have found that it [a2b] actually hurts a sci more than aids one.

    i got psw down to -i think- global with 3 doffs but that takes a lot of space for basically one ability [lol] and doesn't really help me out with others.

    also the damage control doffs were an idea for ep2X skills but again use up doff slots, don't help with much else, and are quite spendy especially on the KDF side ^^

    anyway, once again i appreciate your time and input!! thank you! :)
    Don't know why it says i'm an ARC user. i will never use that TRIBBLE Cryptic!
  • mimey2mimey2 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    fonz71 wrote: »
    thanks again, and sorry for the delay. i was in game trying out the new freebies. ^^


    to answer your question, i will be sci flying the korath. as to what i am trying to do, i would like to reduce my boff abilities as much as possible without using a2b, as i have found that it [a2b] actually hurts a sci more than aids one.

    i got psw down to -i think- global with 3 doffs but that takes a lot of space for basically one ability [lol] and doesn't really help me out with others.

    also the damage control doffs were an idea for ep2X skills but again use up doff slots, don't help with much else, and are quite spendy especially on the KDF side ^^

    anyway, once again i appreciate your time and input!! thank you! :)

    Np.

    Just so you know, PO 1, and the two piece MACO set will keep any EPTX power very close to global cooldown.

    So the PO build will keep you at a good, constantly uptime on your EPTX abilities, and also doesn't gimp your aux, so no DCE or Technician DOFFs needed.

    Any other DOFFs are entirely up to you of course.
    I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
    I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
  • fonz71fonz71 Member Posts: 346 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    after several hours of running this set up, in stf's and ker'rat i can say it is a very useful build ^^ there are definately a lot of upsides to using the elite fleet deflector, 2 piece maco, and PO1 [1 is what i went with for this round]


    the main upside is that for one minute, i get near global cd's on my tray. major plus. as you said there is no cost of power and really only takes one doff slot to make it work. though PSW needs another to further it's cool down. after a couple 1v1's i'm pretty certain my SNB was pretty well timed with clearing off my opponents alpha^^ all in all i was pretty amazed at looking at my tray and seeing heals rdy and buffs coming up pretty regularly.

    there are a few hidden costs though. for me, power conduit link doesn't give me near the power levels that plasmonic leach does. i can still get pretty decent power lvl's but only if i'm getting shot at, instead of just firing my weapons.

    currently i run 2 HE's, with this ship, but i feel comfortable taking one off, so really i'm not losing a boff slot to PO. on the other hand, i also run 2x ep2s and was hoping i could run one and another ep2x ability. unfortunately, the CD for PO is one minute after the doff procs, so during that time i would be coming up short on either the shields or what ever the other ep2x ability is so i am not comfortable changing that. it's possible i may be able to squeeze in a couple damage control doffs but i think i would be hurting myself by removing others currently in place.

    as to the adapted khg, the engine is fine, it is not a combat engine so power requirements are nothing to worry about, but nothing special there really either. the shield is decent on a sci ship with a 1.45 shield mod ^^ but no where near the cap of a khg and not even close to the regen of the borg shield. i easily tanked tac cubes in stf's and in ker'rat, but i think that may also have a lot to do with tss and other resists coming off of cd much more quickly.

    i'm going to run this set up a few more days and see if i can't tweek a few thing to get full up time of ep2s and maybe engines or aux. likely though i will return to my bread and butter of the borg set hehe :D i think i am spoiled from the insane regen and with a 1.45 shield mod, the cap isn't bad either :) plus who doesn't like their hull healing itself? ^^

    you mentioned that i should be getting full up time of ep2x abilities. if i missed something, and i shouldn't be getting a full minute of down time from PO, please let me know.

    anyway, thanks again for the post, it was helpful and i did have a lot of fun playing around with it :D
    Don't know why it says i'm an ARC user. i will never use that TRIBBLE Cryptic!
  • mimey2mimey2 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    fonz71 wrote: »
    after several hours of running this set up, in stf's and ker'rat i can say it is a very useful build ^^ there are definately a lot of upsides to using the elite fleet deflector, 2 piece maco, and PO1 [1 is what i went with for this round]


    the main upside is that for one minute, i get near global cd's on my tray. major plus. as you said there is no cost of power and really only takes one doff slot to make it work. though PSW needs another to further it's cool down. after a couple 1v1's i'm pretty certain my SNB was pretty well timed with clearing off my opponents alpha^^ all in all i was pretty amazed at looking at my tray and seeing heals rdy and buffs coming up pretty regularly.

    there are a few hidden costs though. for me, power conduit link doesn't give me near the power levels that plasmonic leach does. i can still get pretty decent power lvl's but only if i'm getting shot at, instead of just firing my weapons.

    currently i run 2 HE's, with this ship, but i feel comfortable taking one off, so really i'm not losing a boff slot to PO. on the other hand, i also run 2x ep2s and was hoping i could run one and another ep2x ability. unfortunately, the CD for PO is one minute after the doff procs, so during that time i would be coming up short on either the shields or what ever the other ep2x ability is so i am not comfortable changing that. it's possible i may be able to squeeze in a couple damage control doffs but i think i would be hurting myself by removing others currently in place.

    as to the adapted khg, the engine is fine, it is not a combat engine so power requirements are nothing to worry about, but nothing special there really either. the shield is decent on a sci ship with a 1.45 shield mod ^^ but no where near the cap of a khg and not even close to the regen of the borg shield. i easily tanked tac cubes in stf's and in ker'rat, but i think that may also have a lot to do with tss and other resists coming off of cd much more quickly.

    i'm going to run this set up a few more days and see if i can't tweek a few thing to get full up time of ep2s and maybe engines or aux. likely though i will return to my bread and butter of the borg set hehe :D i think i am spoiled from the insane regen and with a 1.45 shield mod, the cap isn't bad either :) plus who doesn't like their hull healing itself? ^^

    you mentioned that i should be getting full up time of ep2x abilities. if i missed something, and i shouldn't be getting a full minute of down time from PO, please let me know.

    anyway, thanks again for the post, it was helpful and i did have a lot of fun playing around with it :D

    I'm glad it's worked well for you so far.

    Yeah though, can't use MACO shields and PM together. I think I will add that to my list of cons, since PM is something many people use. MACO bonus isn't a massive issue, so I can understand if you want to remove it.

    On the EPTS thing. Remember the formula: original cooldown divided by 1.-- = the new cooldown, where the -- is the percentage reduction of PO. So the base 45 seconds of an EPTX ability will be reduced to 36.29 seconds. Add in MACO two piece bonus, and that takes off another 3.2 seconds or so, so you have a CD of about 33 seconds.

    I didn't say you would have 100% uptime, only that you would be very close to global cooldown.

    Also keep in mind that if you use say...EPTS, another copy of EPTS will be put on a 30 second global cooldown, but if you had an...EPTA, it would only be kept at a 15 second cooldown.

    Having PO have a minute left on it's CD after it runs out however, is exactly where it needs to be, don't worry, you didn't do anything wrong there.


    You might wanna test it with PO 2 still, see how it goes. Because PO 2 on an EPTX ability will make it go from 45 seconds, to 34.1 seconds. So very nearly the same reduction as BOTH PO 1 and the MACO two-piece bonus from a single abililty. Add in the MACO bonus and that drops to 30.9 seconds, just BARELY above the global cooldown. Not to mention, reducing all your other CDs further.

    If you were to use PO 3, that would put it down to 32.14 seconds, while adding in MACO to that would put it at global guaranteed.

    Though really, the biggest thing is more that the elite deflector doesn't affect non-sci skills, so all your tac and engy skills are simply going to lag behind, not much that can be done, it is more your choice on how much you are wanting to focus on it.



    So, really, look at it like this:

    How much of a CD reduction are you willing to pay for? PO 1 will do the job pretty well, if you are willing to deal with a few seconds of a gap between them sometimes, the primary time being when PO is own it's own cooldown. If you don't want to give up keeping EPTS up 100% of time, then I recommend looking at testing it without the MACO set (if you do choose to switch out of it of course), keep it at PO 1, and just simply keep two copies of EPTS.

    If you are willing to deal with the gaps, especially during PO's cooldown period, the bonuses from what you choose can be nice: EPTA provides a wealth of sci-focused bonuses, EPTE can help you keep up with those pesky escorts, and EPTW is great for a bit more punch on your weapons.



    In finishing:

    PO, and less specific gear means higher overall cooldowns in the long run, but allows you more openness with your build

    PO and more specific gear lets you keep lower cooldowns on everything in general, but at the cost of tightening your own build up, and allowing less freedom of choice in it.
    I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
    I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
  • stofskstofsk Member Posts: 1,744 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    Does photonic officer need to be activated before any other ability to get the full effect? (this seems self-evident to me but I thought I'd ask just to be clear) I'm thinking of putting it on my keybind but manually activating it at the start. Is that the most efficient way of incorporating PO into a build?

    Too bad I didn't see this thread before I respecced my Caitian first officer out of PS3. PS3 looks like it would synergise well with PO, and I was considering it actually. TBR just seemed like it would be more useful. I wish the 'Please state the nature of the emergency' voice was louder though :)
  • mimey2mimey2 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    stofsk wrote: »
    Does photonic officer need to be activated before any other ability to get the full effect? (this seems self-evident to me but I thought I'd ask just to be clear) I'm thinking of putting it on my keybind but manually activating it at the start. Is that the most efficient way of incorporating PO into a build?

    Too bad I didn't see this thread before I respecced my Caitian first officer out of PS3. PS3 looks like it would synergise well with PO, and I was considering it actually. TBR just seemed like it would be more useful. I wish the 'Please state the nature of the emergency' voice was louder though :)

    Using PO, will put it's cooldown reduction on all BOFF powers. It doesn't matter when you activate it, PO will reduce CDs.

    However, do note that if the ability is past the point where PO will affect it, it will not reduce it's CD further. It's not like A2B, where just clicking it will reduce every cooldown irregardless. PO is a more constant reduction, a 'reduction over time' compared to the 'spike reduction' of A2B, as it were.

    So, doesn't matter when you activate it. If you want to keybind it, go ahead, it won't hurt your build at all.
    I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
    I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,594 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    mimey2 wrote: »
    Just so you know, PO 1, and the two piece MACO set will keep any EPTX power very close to global cooldown.

    How do you figure that?! With its 2 minutes (non-reducible) cooldown, maybe PO can pull it off once; but I can't fathom a setup in which PO + MACO 2-piece set will perma-cycle a single EPtX ability 'very close to global cooldown.'
    3lsZz0w.jpg
  • fonz71fonz71 Member Posts: 346 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    mimey2 wrote: »
    ...
    I didn't say you would have 100% uptime, only that you would be very close to global cooldown....

    i apologize. i didn't mean to misquote you there and meant no disrespect.

    i think what i was trying to ask or get to was that if i use 2 different ep2x abilities -while PO is active- i will have near global cd's on them, but what happens when PO runs out. now i am stuck with a full 30 seconds of one or the other, then another 30 of one or the other til PO comes of cd. that is to say unless i misunderstood something or have done it wrong.

    i think i will try it today with one photonic studies doff, and a couple damage control doffs, though i 'm fairly certain i will still see some gaps in uptime of 2 times ep2x, maybe it wont be as often as the full minute w/o PO. maybe i'll get lucky and the damage control doffs will proc every time while po is down and not proc while it's up hehe :D
    Don't know why it says i'm an ARC user. i will never use that TRIBBLE Cryptic!
  • fonz71fonz71 Member Posts: 346 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    How do you figure that?! With its 2 minutes (non-reducible) cooldown, maybe PO can pull it off once; but I can't fathom a setup in which PO + MACO 2-piece set will perma-cycle a single EPtX ability 'very close to global cooldown.'

    actually the 2 minute cd is reducible to one minute with a photonic studies doff, but there seems to be one minute where we may need to look at other alternative for the near full up time of 2 different ep2x abilities
    Don't know why it says i'm an ARC user. i will never use that TRIBBLE Cryptic!
  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,594 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    fonz71 wrote: »
    actually the 2 minute cd is reducible to one minute with a photonic studies doff, but there seems to be one minute where we may need to look at other alternative for the near full up time of 2 different ep2x abilities

    Yeah, forgot the doff for a moment. :P But the 1 minute is hard-coded, for certain.
    3lsZz0w.jpg
  • intrepid74656intrepid74656 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    Would something like this work?

    Fleet LRSV

    Cmdr. Sci
    PH 1, TBR 1, ES 2, GW 3

    Lt. Cmdr. Sci
    TSS 1, PO 1, ES 2

    Lt. Tac
    TT 1, BFAW 2

    Lt. Eng
    Eng Team 1, EPtS 2

    Ensign Sci
    HE 1

    2 times the Energy Siphon because the ship is packed with Dominion gear and polaron weapons.

    Any suggestions to change skills are also welcome.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • mimey2mimey2 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    How do you figure that?! With its 2 minutes (non-reducible) cooldown, maybe PO can pull it off once; but I can't fathom a setup in which PO + MACO 2-piece set will perma-cycle a single EPtX ability 'very close to global cooldown.'
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    Yeah, forgot the doff for a moment. :P But the 1 minute is hard-coded, for certain.

    PO is only up 50% of the time. 2 minute global cooldown, and the abililty lasts for one minute, so you will have a 1 minute period as well where you won't have it. So it really depends on how much you want them closer to global.

    If you are ok with keeping just two copies of a single ability, like an EPTS for example, because you always want them to have global CD, go ahead. But if you are ok with not always having a single copy of two different abilities at global, like EPTS and EPTA, then go with those.

    It's not a perfect build by any stretch, but it is useful.
    fonz71 wrote: »
    i apologize. i didn't mean to misquote you there and meant no disrespect.

    i think what i was trying to ask or get to was that if i use 2 different ep2x abilities -while PO is active- i will have near global cd's on them, but what happens when PO runs out. now i am stuck with a full 30 seconds of one or the other, then another 30 of one or the other til PO comes of cd. that is to say unless i misunderstood something or have done it wrong.

    i think i will try it today with one photonic studies doff, and a couple damage control doffs, though i 'm fairly certain i will still see some gaps in uptime of 2 times ep2x, maybe it wont be as often as the full minute w/o PO. maybe i'll get lucky and the damage control doffs will proc every time while po is down and not proc while it's up hehe :D
    fonz71 wrote: »
    actually the 2 minute cd is reducible to one minute with a photonic studies doff, but there seems to be one minute where we may need to look at other alternative for the near full up time of 2 different ep2x abilities

    Np, don't worry about it.

    But if you have two different EPTX abilities, they put 15 second globals on each other, only the same ability will put a longer CD. EPTS puts 30 seconds on any other EPTS you have, BUT...it will only put a 15 second CD on an EPTA for example.

    Yeah, but that's the beauty of testing builds at least, let's us get all the bugs worked out.
    Would something like this work?

    Fleet LRSV

    Cmdr. Sci
    PH 1, TBR 1, ES 2, GW 3

    Lt. Cmdr. Sci
    TSS 1, PO 1, ES 2

    Lt. Tac
    TT 1, BFAW 2

    Lt. Eng
    Eng Team 1, EPtS 2

    Ensign Sci
    HE 1

    2 times the Energy Siphon because the ship is packed with Dominion gear and polaron weapons.

    Any suggestions to change skills are also welcome.

    Seems pretty good to me all in all. Just one question: What is your build focus? I ask so I know your mindset.

    I can understand the double ES, as you want to have that as much as possible.
    I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
    I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
  • intrepid74656intrepid74656 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    Seems pretty good to me all in all. Just one question: What is your build focus? I ask so I know your mindset.

    I can understand the double ES, as you want to have that as much as possible.

    Build: http://www.stoacademy.com/tools/skillplanner/?build=fleetdominionintrepid1_0
    Idea: The focus is drain and disable with a tad of crowd control (GW3 and Vent Theta Radiation).
    I know the Intrepid is not as effective with beams and all but I like a bit of canon despite not using phasers.
    It's pretty effective with the Jem set and all but the cooldowns are stupid.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • mimey2mimey2 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    Build: http://www.stoacademy.com/tools/skillplanner/?build=fleetdominionintrepid1_0
    Idea: The focus is drain and disable with a tad of crowd control (GW3 and Vent Theta Radiation).
    I know the Intrepid is not as effective with beams and all but I like a bit of canon despite not using phasers.
    It's pretty effective with the Jem set and all but the cooldowns are stupid.

    Alright, seems pretty solid for the most part.

    Well, what do you mean that 'all but the cooldowns are stupid'?

    Anyways, main thing I want to mention is that you should remove the Zero Point console, possibly one or both field generators, and maybe the Borg console along with possibly the KCB.

    I say that, because, even though you are flying a sci ship, there's not a lot of 'sci' on your ship. The Borg console I can understand, but the Zero point is only giving you crit chance and power, which you really don't need all that much. In your freed up sci console slots, toss in...Graviton Generator consoles, or Flow Caps, depends on what you want to get more of. Your choice.

    But loading up on the field gens isn't gonna help you too much with your actual sci stuff. Also, I can help with your skill spec as well.
    I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
    I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
  • milandaremilandare Member Posts: 194 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    As noted in the thread that spawned this one, you inspired me to try Photonic Officer. It adds a bit of a boost, along with some uncertainty in its down times. I use only the higher versions now of two previously duplicated powers - a bit less often overall, but more impact. I get another Gravity Well sooner, fairly often. I still use two torp spread powers, just because sometimes they attach to near-simultaneous torpedo launches which makes for a spectacular golden shower. *cough* I haven't parsed the impact of PO but I am convinced to stick with it.

    I suspect I'm more vulnerable in PvP, should someone figure out my Photonic Officer timing. That might be another tiny "con" for your list. But anyone who can keep track of a whole deck of my powers during a battle ought to be scamming casinos, not me.

    Another possible "con" is having to watch cooldowns in the attack tray, I can't count on my biorhythms beyond the first minute. On the "pro" side I play more organically.

    When looking at the downtime of Photonic Officer, folk should remember the 'minute of downtime' is not dead air - just reversion to original cool downs. If you're trying to, say, cycle EPtS, then sometimes it takes the full 45 seconds instead of 30. That's 15 seconds gap, perhaps in every second minute, depending on your timing. It could be a bit longer over several minutes. You'll miss it even less if your battles are less than 90 seconds with gaps to reset.
  • intrepid74656intrepid74656 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    mimey2 wrote: »
    Alright, seems pretty solid for the most part.

    Well, what do you mean that 'all but the cooldowns are stupid'?
    Looking at the sci skills nearly every one of them starts with a cooldown of 45 seconds and triggers another cooldown on another skill. Gravity well for instance triggers cooldown on Tykens Rift.
    Feedback Pulse starts a 15 second cooldown on Transfer Shield Strength.
    Polarize Hull and Hazard Emitters starts a 30 (!) second cooldown on duplication while for example Science Team starts (only) a 15 second cooldown on Engineering Team and/or Tactical Team.
    mimey2 wrote: »
    Anyways, main thing I want to mention is that you should remove the Zero Point console, possibly one or both field generators, and maybe the Borg console along with possibly the KCB.

    I say that, because, even though you are flying a sci ship, there's not a lot of 'sci' on your ship. The Borg console I can understand, but the Zero point is only giving you crit chance and power, which you really don't need all that much. In your freed up sci console slots, toss in...Graviton Generator consoles, or Flow Caps, depends on what you want to get more of. Your choice.
    I've tried that setup also but I found it less effective in disabling, draining and packing less of a punch although I might give the KCB another chance to see if it works out.
    mimey2 wrote: »
    But loading up on the field gens isn't gonna help you too much with your actual sci stuff. Also, I can help with your skill spec as well.

    1 thing I forgot to mention is that this ship is used on a "jack of all trades" toon. I've made it so that I can switch between 3 classes of ships without losing tons of DPS and to test new ships. The science ships being the exception to the rule as they don't have it in them do get alot of DPS out of with beams (and I like a bit of canon).

    In this case I have several ships:
    • Dual A2B FAC
    • Fleet Intrepid (link)
    • Tac Vesta
    • Fleet Defiant
    I only have to change the doffs and some gear to make it "effective". I know I won't get all the DPS out of every ship with the skill tree the way it is, but this provides me with the possibility to enjoy the game in whatever mood I feel like playing without changing toon and sacrificing all the unlocks and stuff.
    So its a balance between DPS (time, money, effort to collect all the gear) and fun.

    I'd like to see your suggestion in the skill planner if you don't mind taking the time to make it. You can go all out as I've got another toon (sci) that uses the Intrepid and it needs a bit of love.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • mimey2mimey2 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    milandare wrote: »
    As noted in the thread that spawned this one, you inspired me to try Photonic Officer. It adds a bit of a boost, along with some uncertainty in its down times. I use only the higher versions now of two previously duplicated powers - a bit less often overall, but more impact. I get another Gravity Well sooner, fairly often. I still use two torp spread powers, just because sometimes they attach to near-simultaneous torpedo launches which makes for a spectacular golden shower. *cough* I haven't parsed the impact of PO but I am convinced to stick with it.

    I suspect I'm more vulnerable in PvP, should someone figure out my Photonic Officer timing. That might be another tiny "con" for your list. But anyone who can keep track of a whole deck of my powers during a battle ought to be scamming casinos, not me.

    Another possible "con" is having to watch cooldowns in the attack tray, I can't count on my biorhythms beyond the first minute. On the "pro" side I play more organically.

    When looking at the downtime of Photonic Officer, folk should remember the 'minute of downtime' is not dead air - just reversion to original cool downs. If you're trying to, say, cycle EPtS, then sometimes it takes the full 45 seconds instead of 30. That's 15 seconds gap, perhaps in every second minute, depending on your timing. It could be a bit longer over several minutes. You'll miss it even less if your battles are less than 90 seconds with gaps to reset.

    I thought of much of the same things as you put, but I didn't add those to pros or cons, because I mostly just kept the list to very general things that anyone who uses this build will encounter. Like the 'biorhythm' thing, I didn't include anything like that, because even if you take the exact same ship and build, people will fly it differently because their mind-sets are different.

    But that is right. It isn't 'dead air' between PO uses, more that you simply have to deal with all the normal things that come up with in regards to cooldowns.
    Looking at the sci skills nearly every one of them starts with a cooldown of 45 seconds and triggers another cooldown on another skill. Gravity well for instance triggers cooldown on Tykens Rift.
    Feedback Pulse starts a 15 second cooldown on Transfer Shield Strength.
    Polarize Hull and Hazard Emitters starts a 30 (!) second cooldown on duplication while for example Science Team starts (only) a 15 second cooldown on Engineering Team and/or Tactical Team.

    I've tried that setup also but I found it less effective in disabling, draining and packing less of a punch although I might give the KCB another chance to see if it works out.

    1 thing I forgot to mention is that this ship is used on a "jack of all trades" toon. I've made it so that I can switch between 3 classes of ships without losing tons of DPS and to test new ships. The science ships being the exception to the rule as they don't have it in them do get alot of DPS out of with beams (and I like a bit of canon).

    e to change the doffs and some gear to make it "effective". I know I won't get all the DPS out of every ship with the skill tree the way it is, but this provides me with the possibility to enjoy the game in whatever mood I feel like playing without changing toon and sacrificing all the unlocks and stuff.
    So its a balance between DPS (time, money, effort to collect all the gear) and fun.

    I'd like to see your suggestion in the skill planner if you don't mind taking the time to make it. You can go all out as I've got another toon (sci) that uses the Intrepid and it needs a bit of love.

    Oh yes yes, I understand now. Yeah, maybe one day they will de-couple a few more sci skills from each other. It took them a LONG time to take Polarize Hull and HE apart.

    Ah, 'jack of all trades' eh? Well, if you feel that works well, go ahead and keep that one as-is. (mind you that I am gonna be assuming both toons have the same spec for what I am about to say)

    For your sci, my main recommendations lie in:

    Tac skills:

    Take the points out of energy weapon specialization, that really won't make a big difference. Everything else seems pretty ok.

    Eng skills:

    Biggest thing is the points in the aux/shields/weapons/engines performance skills. Honestly, between all the bonuses we can get nowadays, the extra power really doesn't change as much up.

    Take a couple points out of hull plating and maybe put it into armor reinforcements. Also put a bit more into subsystem repair.

    For the sake of obligation, I must also say that you should spec out of driver coils.

    Sci skills:

    Honestly, main thing I can say here is...put a lot into sci stuff. at least 6 points into everything, 9 what you wanna specialize in. Only one you can really afford to leave at less than 6 is Inertial Dampeners, and that is only really because NPCS rarely use anything that disables. It is all just useful all around, and it actually can make a difference.
    I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
    I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
  • stofskstofsk Member Posts: 1,744 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    If you're interested in a counterpoint Intrepid74656, I'd recommend maxing only 6-7 skills; starship manoeuvres, targeting systems, starship hull repair, structural integrity, shield emitters and starship shield systems. Flow capacitors is the 7th, and since you're using polarons and energy siphon it sounds like you're switched on with that skill. The reason being is that for most skills the benefits after 6 points don't justify the diminishing returns in skill cost, but with those skills you can't have enough of what they provide (accuracy, defence, both kinds of hp and both kinds of heal). Take a look at this: http://home.comcast.net/~amicus/Skill%20Point%20Effects.htm

    I put points into driver coil, so I disagree with Mimey about that. It's a minor benefit but a benefit nonetheless. On the other hand, I don't think subsystem repair is worth it. The enemies that use subsystem targeting are few and you can counter it with a combination of abilities like engineering team (which you have) and batteries. Also, human boffs boost subsystem repair anyway. I also disagree with mimey about the power performance skills. Though I would not recommend maxing them.

    Graviton generators can probably be nixed completely. It doesn't give that much of a boost to anything. Or to be more precise, it doesn't boost what you currently use - GW3 only benefits by it a paltry 25%, whereas abilities like photonic shockwave and tractor beam repulsors get a 100% boost. The only reason why I specced 6 points into it was to train a boff to use GW3. And that's lead me to another point: GW3 isn't that great. I used it for a long time and I've been finding that it is increasingly anemic when dealing with PVE nowadays. Some of the other top-end skills are more specialised. I don't bother putting points into inertial dampers, because as Mimey says there aren't that many enemies that use abilities where that would come in handy. Sensors and countermeasures are again, specialised builds for PVP. One boosts stealth detection, and that's really something you need to worry about for PVP; the other boosts abilities like scramble and jam sensors, which has little effect in PVE but can be really powerful in PVP. Subspace decompiler is something else though; I'm considering respeccing into it, to get photonic shockwave 3. I haven't decided yet.

    As for the boff abilities you have for your ship, mostly good. Tac team is great for shielding, eng team though will likely be on cooldown when you need it though. Or vice versa. Eng team is a great hull heal and as I said above, can repair damaged subsystems. Science skills are mostly fine. You've got hazard emitters, polarise hull and transfer shield strength, all great things. I used 2 copies of energy siphon, but I replaced one with a Lt. Commdr Photonic Officer, largely because of this thread! I replaced GW3 because I just wasn't seeing any benefit from it. I replaced it with TBR3, which is a very situational skill but it seems to do the CC thing better than GW3. I've considered Photonic Shockwave 3 in its place, but in order to do so I would need to respec. That by itself is not an issue, as I have to respec anyway. At 6 points in subspace decompiler, PS3 should disable for just under 4 seconds. Which is not too shabby. As for feedback pulse, I am not sure if this a great skill for PVE. For PVP, it can be, but I can't see it being that great in PVE because the biggest killers are kinetic damage from torpedoes. Most NPC beam weapons are the 'death of a 1000 cuts' style damage. Having said that, I haven't personally used it in PVE. So your experience may vary, and take what I say with your own observations of the ability's efficacy.

    For your ground skills, I recommend putting six points into medic, weapon proficiency, PS generator, scientist, probability logistics, and particle physics. I would take out all points you currently have in every other skills. This should give you 66k skills points, which evens out the build completely (you had 500 skill points that weren't being used). But I have no idea what abilities and kit you run with on the ground. Physiology might be worth taking to 6 if you use abilities that buff your team. If so, take particle physics down to 3.

    Anyway, I hope that helps.
  • bpharmabpharma Member Posts: 2,022
    edited August 2013
    I'm currently playing around with PO thanks to this and while PO is active it's good but it's still lacking. I get reduced cooldowns with PO2 + 2 piece maco and while I won't get close to A2B levels of reduction I do get to keep my aux. However I do feel it's a little underpowered still.

    With PO2 (which is the highest rank available to most people) you only get a 32% reduction to cooldowns and it costs you a higher ranking boff slot than A2B, 1 Doff slot, only up half the time and requires you to think forward about your plans for what CD resets will happen when PO stops. Also to REALLY get the full benefits for sci powers you must stack a lot of very specific gear.

    Compare to A2B where you give up 2 lower rank boff slots and 3 doff slots for 200% CD reduction on ALL abilities which requires a little bit of forward planning because of the cycling aux but that can be fixed with aux battery. Coupled with the ability to use anything you want in gear or powers that doesn't require aux for effectiveness and you're onto a winner.

    So to compare the CD reductions: PO2 = 16% reduction in all CDs vs A2B = varying up to 200% reduction in all CD

    I say 16% because you have half your time with PO2 on cooldown. Also the way A2B works is it takes 30% of what the CD is off which translates to hitting global on all abilities (even short CD abilities). So on a 60s CD given no global, A2B can reduce it down to 20s.

    If say it had 100% uptime or close to (by making global 1 min) then we would see more usage of this in science ships and maybe some bizarre cruiser builds but atm it feels like plasma before the DoT buff. Another alternative would be to buff it a bit more with it being 50/75/100% reduction for PO1/2/3 respectively as this would enable it to be competative with A2B but not beat it.

    Just my thoughts, anyway, good work on the theory crafting and it certainly is worth having a look at if you have a burst science ship and require a 2nd bite at the cherry a bit quicker.

    It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
    A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.

    Has damage got out of control?
    This is the last thing I will post.
  • milandaremilandare Member Posts: 194 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    bpharma wrote: »
    ...
    So to compare the CD reductions: PO2 = 16% reduction in all CDs vs A2B = varying up to 200% reduction in all CD

    I say 16% because you have half your time with PO2 on cooldown. Also the way A2B works is it takes 30% of what the CD is off which translates to hitting global on all abilities (even short CD abilities). So on a 60s CD given no global, A2B can reduce it down to 20s.
    ...

    I think you're comparing 16% to 30% (-ish), not 200%. Or, for that first minute, 32% compared with 30%. If that's the case, then there might be a situational argument (short engagements or mitigating powers) for PO being comparable, and considering the material costs, perhaps even advantageous for some builds. Unless I'm reading this wrongly.
  • bpharmabpharma Member Posts: 2,022
    edited August 2013
    The problem is that they both do not work in the same way. PO reduces the amount of cooldown by the formula at the front but only for the minute it is active and only for that duration of PO. What A2B does is it takes a certain amount off the cooldown. So on a 30s skill using A2B straight after using the skill would take 30% off the cooldown left and start at 20s. Using A2B 10s later would take another 30% of the total cooldown (10s) off the cooldown and go from 10s to ready.

    With PO2 it would start the cooldown off at the new value as calculated on the first page. so if PO was running when you activate the 30s CD you would get 30/1.32 = 22.7s and thats it.

    If you were to translate A2B to work on the same principles of the formula at the front with the same level of reduction it has then A2B would be a 2 which would give you 30/(1+2) = 10.

    When I said 16% that's over the course of cycling both it's active and inactive part where you must have no CD reduction. A2B can be cycled back to back with a 10s global cooldown, reducing each other and all other abilities. Even just comparing over that 1 minute A2B is still a 200% reduction in cooldown for all abilities when cycling it where as PO is a 32% reduction. You just hit global with most abilities which is a 100% reduction in cooldown for most abilities.

    I'm just trying to show that there is a massive disparity between how this cooldown related skill compares to the only other alternative and that it is massively underwhelming. PO does need a buff to be of real use as to use PO2 or even PO3 you have to give up a Lt.Com or higher ability which is very detrimental to your already nerfed and continually nerfed bag of tricks.

    I don't suppose Mimey knows what it would take to get PO down to a 1 min CD on itself assuming that could be it's global cooldown? I have tried calculating it with 2 Photonic studies doffs and got between 73s and 93s depending on how it stacks and how they interact with each other etc etc.

    Edit: If 2 doffs reduce the 171s CD to 102s THEN PO2 with maco and deflector are applied you could get it down to a 69.7s CD. I would consider using it at that level especially as 3 doffs would get it down to <60s but then maybe I would be better with a single A2B if it required that much doff investment.

    It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
    A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.

    Has damage got out of control?
    This is the last thing I will post.
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