Common Courtesy

icepiraka

Okay, so I just finished this PvP match: On the Klink side, there was me in my Torp'varo, a KDF in a Vor'cha, and another Rom T'varo whose @handle shall remain unnamed (for now). On the Feds, there was a JHAS and a JHEC. It was a pug match (at least klink side), 3v2.

The Fed Jem'hadar ships had very strong builds and very competent captains, and we were frankly getting stomped on. The Vor'cha was getting the brunt of the punishment, and I was trying to help him, but also trying to stay alive myself (because, as and EBCing torp ship, I have a hard time staying under extended fire, especially under fire from these ships). I soon realized that the other T'varo captain was AFK. I complained about the matter, and it turns out that our other T'varo captain was intentionally staying out of the fight. I confronted him, and he said that it was "to balance teams, and that you should learn to fly better". While the Vor'cha seemed to be having trouble staying in the fight, I won't say anything bad about his skill, and I'd like to think I'm at least a decent ship captain. It's just a fact that EBC torpoedo-ing leaves you squishy. The final score was, IIRC, 15-6 in favor of the Feds (a great deal of the KDF score was me getting lucky torp strikes on their JHAS), and I was very unhappy.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it true that the best indicator of "balance" is (near) equal number of kills on both teams, not equal number of players? It was clear that me and the Klink were clearly outmatched, and the T'varo's refusal to fight meant there was no chance of what I believed might have been a fair fight. I don't care if one team has more players than another; if the larger team is clearly losing, and you are on the larger team, you should at least try to help your team! It's common courtesy! Seriously, is this some kind of ignorant "tough love" attitude toward those less experienced PvP? Let others get grilled and assume their failure is on their lack of skill, experience, or knowledge in shipbuilding? Why do this?

ussultimatum

icepiraka wrote: »

another Rom T'varo whose @handle shall remain unnamed (for now).

Good on you for not posting the @handle, which is against the forum rules.

Feel free to join OrganizedPvP where you can directly discuss @handles. :P

virusdancer

ussultimatum wrote: »

Good on you for not posting the @handle, which is against the forum rules.

Feel free to join OrganizedPvP where you can directly discuss @handles. :P

I was going to ask about his survivability issues in an EBCing Torp'varo, but that probably would have gone badly...so I have to say I'm glad you posted this, because I definitely got a chuckle out of it.

As for the guy staying out of fight, if he was just watching the team lose - well, yeah - can't discuss that on the forums either, lol...but that's not balancing things in the least. Definitely sounds more like...fill in the blank...than anything else.

To the OP, I have sat out of fights myself when on the larger, where the larger team was slaughtering the smaller team - cause, that's just not fun for me. If I wanted that kind of photon grenade in a barrel of fish, I'd go PvE...

antoniosalieri

Well in fairness.... some people don't worry about the score board quite so much.

3 v 2 is often seen as lopsided by many... and they will sit it out. I have no doubt this player was not your typical AFK player waiting for you to make them D.

Sometimes when sides are equal the side with a bit more skill wins... or in this case perhaps the superior equip / ships + skill.

Not saying anything about your build cause I don't know you at all... a little think I love on my torp boats lately though... Aux to Damp with one of the new Purple Sulaban Matter anti Matter Doffs..... awsome combo on the EBC ships.

icepiraka

virusdancer wrote: »

To the OP, I have sat out of fights myself when on the larger, where the larger team was slaughtering the smaller team - cause, that's just not fun for me. If I wanted that kind of photon grenade in a barrel of fish, I'd go PvE...

Understandable, but this was the opposite case, just in case I wasn't clear.

As for his survivability, well I didn't actually see him fight so I couldn't say, but I'd imagine he may have been as squishy as I was. But hey, you won't see me refusing to fight just because of that, so I don't think that's a particularly good or plausible excuse.

p2wsucks

I did it, idk who knows about it. My self and others do it often, usually we rotate in and out of the fights though. In this case they (we) lost badly b/c they were completely out played, it had nothing to do w/the ships.

Fyi, I was 3-1 when I noticed it was 3v2. I like dogfighting 1 of the guys on the other team in particular (b/c it is a challenge and not boring) and would've rotated in if a pugmate had asked. But, I figured they liked the challenge, until the non-stop whining by the OP @ the end.

Seriously, you called them a premade ... 2 people ...

antoniosalieri

LOL there it is... Roach made a sportsmanship call.

Nothing at all wrong with what he did.... honestly it doesn't sound like you guys got blown out not sure what you are really upset for. I hope no one told you Klinks never loose or something.

Sounds like it was in fact a good match..... what can ya do.

I know what you can do.... Read my Sig.

p2wsucks

antoniosalieri wrote: »

LOL there it is... Roach made a sportsmanship call.

Nothing at all wrong with what he did.... honestly it doesn't sound like you guys got blown out not sure what you are really upset for. I hope no one told you Klinks never loose or something.

Sounds like it was in fact a good match..... what can ya do.

Actually, my @iamid is my handle, thirty was the toon I was on, but ... the point is the same.

antoniosalieri

p2wsucks wrote: »

Actually, my @iamid is my handle, thirty was the toon I was on, but ... the point is the same.

lol forgive me... that's that I get for half paying attention.

Indeed point stands... you made the call the majority of the games other vets would make in the same situation.

virusdancer

icepiraka wrote: »

As for his survivability, well I didn't actually see him fight so I couldn't say, but I'd imagine he may have been as squishy as I was. But hey, you won't see me refusing to fight just because of that, so I don't think that's a particularly good or plausible excuse.

Wasn't his that I was questioning. I don't feel squishy in the least in my T'varo...not in the least. I mean - squishy doesn't come to mind at all with my T'varo.

Now, the MU Deep that I was just dorking around on in Ker'rat...lol...that's damn squishy.

icepiraka

Perhaps I need to explain my logic a bit further.

Suppose you have a 5v5 arena, and one team is slaughtering the other enough for one to conclude that there is an imbalance. Suppose you had, say 2 players on the superior team sit out, and from that point on, both teams scored about equal number of kills. I believe that this is balanced. Even though the number of players is an "uneven" 3v5, the killing power of the formerly superior team would then be equal to that of the formerly inferior one.

Now look at my case, where it was an effective 2v2, where the superior Fed team was killing the KDF team enough for one to consider it imbalanced (which I believe it was). Suppose, in this case, you added 1 more player to the KDF side, and from that point on both sides score equal kills. Even though that would be a 3v2, the killing on both teams would be the same, and thus it would be balanced.

My point is, in this game, equal killing power implies balance, equal number of players does not. Heck, if you had a 1v10, and the final score was 15-14, I'd call that balanced!

I play a lot of TF2, and balance is particularly important issue in that game, so I'm probably acutely sensitive to team balance. Basically, I believe if you do not strive to balance the game or balance your team, you are intentionally refusing to show sportsmanship and be a good teammate. So I believe that this pilot's refusal to help the team was him intentionally being unsportsmanlike and being a fundamentally bad teammate.

marc8219

I normally will wait for the match to fill with more players if its only 2 on the other team, its only common courtesy. Having only 2 opponents is boring anyway.

virusdancer

icepiraka wrote: »

My point is, in this game, equal killing power implies balance, equal number of players does not.

JHAS & JHEC

vs.

T'varo (Fleet? Retro?) & Vor'cha (Fleet? Retro? MU?) & T'varo (Fleet? Retro?)

The latter part there, might affect various folks opinions of whether the 2v2 was balanced or if a 3v2 would have been balanced..

...or to make it more twisted, if the JHAS & JHEC were piloted by Roms sporting their BOFFs - heh, that could change the opinion as well.

icepiraka

virusdancer wrote: »

JHAS & JHEC

vs.

T'varo (Fleet? Retro?) & Vor'cha (Fleet? Retro? MU?) & T'varo (Fleet? Retro?)

The latter part there, might affect various folks opinions of whether the 2v2 was balanced or if a 3v2 would have been balanced..

...or to make it more twisted, if the JHAS & JHEC were piloted by Roms sporting their BOFFs - heh, that could change the opinion as well.

I was in a Fleet T'varo, no idea what the rest were flying exactly, or about Boffs. But even if I were to tell you the specifics, that alone is not enough to determine balance, I don't think. Players are different, better/worse than others, have different aptitudes, reactions, confidence levels to certain fights and situations, etc. You can only be truly sure of balance and imbalance by empirical observation, by playing the match.

p2wsucks

icepiraka wrote: »

I was in a Fleet T'varo, no idea what the rest were flying exactly, or about Boffs. But even if I were to tell you the specifics, that alone is not enough to determine balance, I don't think. Players are different, better/worse than others, have different aptitudes, reactions, confidence levels to certain fights and situations, etc. You can only be truly sure of balance and imbalance by empirical observation, by playing the match.

In this case it was the players, nothing else. But, if you must know I fly a retro T'varo. The toon is a Sci Captain.

Tac Boffs: APO3, CRF2, BO2, 2xTT
Sci: TB3,TB2, HE2, TSS1, Sci Team1
Eng: EPtW2, EPtE1
Omega Mk X, 3 part set.

DBB, 3xDHCs Phased Polaron
3x Polaron Turrets

Eng consoles: Plas Leech, Tvaro Sing Charge Console, Rommy +1.8 CritH console

Sci: 3x MKXII Flow cap Embassy 2+shield proc, 1+hull proc (maybe otherway around

Tac: 3x +26 Polaron

Devices: Shield, Engine batteries

Green/Blue Hazzard Doffs, Purp Sensor Scan Doff, can't remember other 2, nothing special

Rommy Boffs: Can't remember the mix of operator, infiltrator, and the 3rd trait

Purple MK X singularity core, +aux, +overcharge critD, something else I can't remember

No Tac nor Eng skills above commander level.

We had 2 sci's and a tac. They had no sci. Our Tac was very squishy, it happens in PuG matches. You take this too seriously.

icepiraka

Your post only proves my point. And yes, I take my interests very seriously, and I get irritated when they're disrupted by lack of sportsmanship.

My point stands; as bad as we may have been, you are directly responsible for leaving the team imbalanced. Even if you had joined and we still lost, or if we began to slaughter them, at least then we'd know our true capability. You didn't even give us that chance!

virusdancer

icepiraka wrote: »

if we began to slaughter them, at least then we'd know our true capability. You didn't even give us that chance!

p2wsucks wrote: »

Fyi, I was 3-1 when I noticed it was 3v2.

I mean...that kind of says it all, no?

p2wsucks

icepiraka wrote: »

Your post only proves my point. And yes, I take my interests very seriously, and I get irritated when they're disrupted by lack of sportsmanship.

My point stands; as bad as we may have been, you are directly responsible for leaving the team imbalanced. Even if you had joined and we still lost, or if we began to slaughter them, at least then we'd know our true capability. You didn't even give us that chance!

Perhaps you just don't have the temperament for PuG matches and should search out a PvP fleet?

Edit: Someone not carrying team w/uneven odds already in their favor, doesn't make them a bad sport. Whining about losing a PuG match in a broken queue system that pops a 3v2 match does.

icepiraka

virusdancer wrote: »

I mean...that kind of says it all, no?

That means nothing. One team may start out ahead in the beginning, but the situation can quite easily reverse.

p2wsucks wrote: »

Edit: Someone not carrying team w/uneven odds already in their favor, doesn't make them a bad sport. Whining about losing a PuG match in a broken queue system that pops a 3v2 match does.

And this is different from a lot of what goes on in this forum.... how?

p2wsucks

icepiraka wrote: »

That means nothing. One team may start out ahead in the beginning, but the situation can quite easily reverse.



And this is different from a lot of what goes on in this forum.... how?

Fyi, your trains of thought are jumping all over different tracks.

icepiraka

What? So I can't reply to two different people at the same time?

p2wsucks

icepiraka wrote: »

What? So I can't reply to two different people at the same time?

It more that you took a left turn in 2 different discussions in the same post.

icepiraka

Then let me explain: in the first part, I was defending my observation of the team imbalance.

My point in the second part is this; if more players had a universal sense of what is "fair" and "balanced," even in spite of how imbalanced Cryptic makes the game, it would solve a lot of the complaints on these forums. As it stands, that is not the case, so people make their complaints in the forums. I can't see how this is any different.

p2wsucks

icepiraka wrote: »

Then let me explain: in the first part, I was defending my observation of the team imbalance.

My point in the second part is this; if more players had a universal sense of what is "fair" and "balanced," even in spite of how imbalanced Cryptic makes the game, it would solve a lot of the complaints on these forums. As it stands, that is not the case, so people make their complaints in the forums. I can't see how this is any different.

Virus wasnt attacking your odd sense of team balance, rather he was pointing out how you said you'd have liked to know how the game may have progressed when if you'd had have payed attention you would have. (Btw, one of your flaws).

I wasn't making a statement regarding balance, but instead pointing out your odd sense of sportsmanship.

Really though, you're better off finding like minded PvPers to team with. Since, if what I did upset you really won't like what the PuG gods can give you for PuGmates.

icepiraka

Yea, I get it, but I disagree, because I was paying attention, and because I don't believe 3 to 4 kills (3-1 score in our case) accurately predicts the outcome of the game. I need close to twice that number (closing on 8 kills) before making that determination. Like I said, a 3-1 could just as easily go the other way.

p2wsucks

icepiraka wrote: »

Yea, I get it, but I disagree, because I was paying attention, and because I don't believe 3 to 4 kills (3-1 score in our case) accurately predicts the outcome of the game. I need close to twice that number (closing on 8 kills) before making that determination. Like I said, a 3-1 could just as easily go the other way.

My score was 3-1, I didn't say the team's score was 3-1 ...

"As for his survivability, well I didn't actually see him fight so I couldn't say, but I'd imagine he may have been as squishy as I was."

You weren't paying attention.

icepiraka

If memory serves, you chose to sit out the game within the first few minutes of the fight, correct? For me, that is not enough time to get a full sense of someone's capabilities, especially a small, evasive, hard to observe Romulan bird-of-prey. And thank you for correcting me on the matter of the score. I don't exactly remember the score at the time of your going AWOL, but again, you seemed to do it very early on, early enough for me to get the sense that the whole match was one of imbalance. And I especially watch the score when that happens, even though I may not remember the numbers precisely (except perhaps the end score).

p2wsucks

icepiraka wrote: »

If memory serves, you chose to sit out the game within the first few minutes of the fight, correct? For me, that is not enough time to get a full sense of someone's capabilities, especially a small, evasive, hard to observe Romulan bird-of-prey. And thank you for correcting me on the matter of the score. I don't exactly remember the score at the time of your going AWOL, but again, you seemed to do it very early on, early enough for me to get the sense that the whole match was one of imbalance. And I especially watch the score when that happens, even though I may not remember the numbers precisely (except perhaps the end score).

Yeah, you payed so close attention you missed when I said in Zone I'd sit it out b/c it was 3v2. You then started whining when they got their 13th kill. You called them a premade using p2w when they weren't using the JHEC console, nor elite pets and were apparently in your eyes a premade of 2. You'd even acknowledged they were coordinating better than the 2 of you fighting. Yet, you did nothing to work w/the 3rd guy to play off each other better. It wasn't unbalanced they were just better players than you.

But, sure it's my fault for sitting out a 3v2. I ruined your day. I will continue to do the same.

Perhaps you should stay away from PuG matches then, please?

icepiraka

Yeah, you payed so close attention you missed when I said in Zone I'd sit it out b/c it was 3v2.

The color I have set for Zone chat made it hard to read against the background map, so I probably missed it.

You then started whining when they got their 13th kill.

But I suspected imbalance much sooner.

You called them a premade using p2w when they weren't using the JHEC console, nor elite pets and were apparently in your eyes a premade of 2.

So a ship by itself can't be inherently called P2W? And it's completely implausible that two people can't be friends and model their builds off each other (they were both Jem'hadar, both antiprotons, used similar abilities, had comparable maneuverability), and join games with eachother?

You'd even acknowledged they were coordinating better than the 2 of you fighting. Yet, you did nothing to work w/the 3rd guy to play off each other better. It wasn't unbalanced they were just better players than you.

I probably could have keybinded what my target was, true, I haven't gotten around to that yet. But that does NOT mean I am oblivious to the actions and plight of my teammates (for example, the Klink was taking heat, I was trying to keep him alive with TT, hull heals). Given you action (or lack thereof), I cannot say the same about you (btw one of your flaws).

I ruined your day. I will continue to do the same.

Perhaps you should stay away from PuG matches then, please?

If that's the case, I may just take your advice. Be sure to tell me which fleet you are in, so that I know not to join it.

antoniosalieri

Ok let me recap this is what I am hearing....

A que fail popped a 3 Vs 2 situation....

The score quickly becomes 3 to 1 for the team with 3 players....

One of the guys on the team with 3 decides to Sit out to even the odds....

Game ends with the other side winning with a respectable score (meaning it didn't end 15 3).... I assume that as the OP mentioned he got kills on these poor fail popped feds.

Then he comes here and posts that the dude that sat out to even the numbers is a bad sport ?

I think I got that right don't I.

OP read it back to yourself and think does this sound right... if I missed something let me know.

You played a match with even numbers... you lost... not seeing the issue here.

antoniosalieri

icepiraka wrote: »

So a ship by itself can't be inherently called P2W? And it's completely implausible that two people can't be friends and model their builds off each other (they were both Jem'hadar, both antiprotons, used similar abilities, had comparable maneuverability), and join games with eachother?

You are in a T'varo... pot meet kettle. There is no such thing as non p2w ships any longer. Well there are but no one flies Patrol Escorts, Star Cruisers, Hegh bops, and Negvars anymore.

Everyone uses similar abilities that is half decent in PvP....

Even if they are teamed up... 2 people are hardly a super threatening Premade... it would have been worse if you said it was a bug with his sci ship pocket healer.

In any event it was a 2v2 and you where out gunned... by at least a margin. It sounds to me like they won 15 -6-7 if I was guessing... hardly some lopsided blowout.