I'll be frank. I don't think PvP should become a huge part of STO unless the wall between pvp veterans and new comers isn't moderated somehow (among other issues). If pvp becomes the essence of sto at its current state, that'll be the death of this game.
The op has no credibility to say what is good or bad for this game talking about what's balanced with a console . How about you actually push a button by your self that might bring some balance oh wait then you would suck.
Awesome! If this was true, if i was on the receiving end of a macro beating me - i'd quit PvP - The shame of a linear macro beating me........
Also, there are enough of my videos on youtube to prove otherwise.
In Fact, the OP is among the most credible members of our community, love him or hate him.
Thanks bud......
Just to continue the "Balance through Saturation", this also applies to DOFFS and did apply to captain abilities (increased the amount of abilities recently ish) - Controlled via limiting the slot numbers.
Random question - Are there any "Must have" DOFFS - (shield distro of old) in all ships and not just specifics (Like Marion for DEM)? If there isn't anymore, this aspect may have achieved balance through saturation. Been out of game for a month or two so can't answer this myself at this point in time.
To be honest, the only way we would achieve mythical balance which everybody yearns for is to have 3 fixed ships in PvP. Healer, support (Sci) and tac all with fixed load outs in every manner. Maybe only variation is faction specific.
You choose as a team how many of each in the team before the match starts.
Fast forward 2 - 3 months and watch the queues die off due to a vanilla PvP experience. (Maybe a good idea for newcomers to PvP as a separate game play mode)
1 -
Secondary Shield Burst
Instantly provides X amount of secondary shields. Shielding lasts X amount of time.
2 -
Daystrom M-6 Super Computer console.
Provides a 30s boost to all science skills.
- 2 piece bonus effect - Beta Tachyon Burst (BT burst drops the main shielding for 2s and hot restarts it instantly restoring 100% of main shielding)
Question: Do secondary shields require main shields to be up or do they operate independently?
Question: Do secondary shields require main shields to be up or do they operate independently?
They could work exactly like the Scim secondary shield console.
I don't think your main shields need to be up no.
Something like that set would need to be have different cool down times on the 2 piece and the console .... meaning you could do one perfect Secondary shield + Beta Tach shield resist... and after that you would have to either wait cool downs on both or no use it that way.
If you asked me 2 months ago if a secondary shield console would be op I would have said hell ya it is.... but honestly after seeing them in action on the Schmitars... the mechanic isn't game breaking.
Considering all the you can't kill me consoles the Vesta has... I think something like that for one of the fed fleet sci ships would be rocking...
I think Cryptic could redo 5-10 of the Fleet ships into Elite Versions with very cool 2 piece console sets with in a couple days work... very little new art... they can recycle ideas already in game like the Secondary shields... ect.
Just to continue the "Balance through Saturation", this also applies to DOFFS and did apply to captain abilities (increased the amount of abilities recently ish) - Controlled via limiting the slot numbers.
Random question - Are there any "Must have" DOFFS - (shield distro of old) in all ships and not just specifics (Like Marion for DEM)? If there isn't anymore, this aspect may have achieved balance through saturation. Been out of game for a month or two so can't answer this myself at this point in time.
To be honest, the only way we would achieve mythical balance which everybody yearns for is to have 3 fixed ships in PvP. Healer, support (Sci) and tac all with fixed load outs in every manner. Maybe only variation is faction specific.
You choose as a team how many of each in the team before the match starts.
Fast forward 2 - 3 months and watch the queues die off due to a vanilla PvP experience. (Maybe a good idea for newcomers to PvP as a separate game play mode)
So what would you have?
I still use three SDOs. Can't beat an instant heal that gives me more than 50% of what my capacity is (for my escort).
There's so many DOFFs, it really depends on your build and preference.
I use the Warp Core Engineer (Tal Shiar lockbox) that gives the following (http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=690821):
Warp Core Engineer
Chance for Emergency Power to X to cleanse all negative effects (Debuffs, Controls and DOTs)
o Provides periodic cleansing every 0.5sec for 2sec duration when triggered.
o Chance to activate scales as follows: 20% / 30% / 40%
Since Warp Core Engineers are restricted to one, it works out well. Also, the description from the DOFF notes is different from what it says on the actual DOFF. Namely, it's an instant trigger and does not continue to cleanse negative effects.
- Buff lasts for 10sec, and provides +20 Shield Power each time it procs
- You cannot benefit from multiple procs during any 10 second period
- This power bonus does not stack with the Projectile Weapons Officer power that grants the same benefit
- Equipping both (or multiple of either) will only increase the chance of triggering, not the power benefit
- Chance to activate: 5%
While you can have more than one of this DOFF, +20 is the maximum power you can achieve. I only run one of these.
I used to run one of the SNB DOFFs, but I get higher chances to proc with the two that I currently have. I'll so, less crying about it from those who don't like it.
Something like that set would need to be have different cool down times on the 2 piece and the console .... meaning you could do one perfect Secondary shield + Beta Tach shield resist... and after that you would have to either wait cool downs on both or no use it that way.
That was exactly what I was thinking of, set sold :P
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
I think Husanak touched on this a while ago, but the more and more i think about it, the more and more it makes sense and i have to grudgingly agree.
If there are (for the sake of argument) 30 over powered consoles, but you only have 10 slots in a ship, which 10 of the 30 would you take (not even taking into consideration standard consoles)?
This way, there would be more variety in the game and Cryptic won't have to worry about "micro balance" at all.
Now, they can release as many ships, consoles, pets etc. (which they are doing now) and not have to worry about "balance". As long as they have fixed ship slots, they will balance through slots rather than micro manage / tweak powers.
I'm not saying I agree or like this (personally, i think it stinks), but the way their business model is working and from what they have said / not said in the past, this seems the most logical choice for Cryptic.
If we can't face this fact, we should probably move on to pastures new.
I think Cryptpic made the biggest mistake in not making PvP a priority sooner. Look at DOTA 2 and LoL - All about PvP and very successful.
Now imagine if it had become a priority in season 2 - We might have been having full on International e-sport tournaments by now with real prizes and real publicity. Not "does my bum look big in this" outfits in the Zen store (Rant over...)
Hope you see what i'm getting at.
Similar with boff/captain (mixed/otherwise) powers it's always been the stacking/non-clearing effects that are the issue.
I agree had they put some effort into PVP (I can't say earlier since it's still the same) their model could be better. The better isn't the game it's the new mechanics and ships available. When you can do 200k dmg in 3-4s that is a bit of a issue. You wouldn't need to be able to do that had the adjustments from early S3 been stuck too. J/S
They have put the game to a point where it's F2Pers (and even older players) QQ'ing they can't win against groups and players that just do better.
It's what it is. I hope there is a place with PVP but waiting another year or two isn't a option. Too much crying and not enough challenged when properly grouped.
Generally, the guys in our fleet build their escorts for as much offense as makes realistic sense.
As long as survivability isn't completely compromised, everything goes to offense.
Especially doffs.
Doffs I think are pretty balanced right now... there are so many good options that it becomes a problem deciding which to run... and do you stack to 3 and give something up.
DMG control... Attack Pattern Doffs... Overload Doffs... Aux to Damp Doffs... Tech doffs... Torp Doffs.... ect ect ect
There is no way you can load everything you would LIKE to have with you on any ship... lots of powerful doffs but you can't run them all.
Consoles are starting to go that way now... its that way for the roms now... I think they will do that with the fed and klink ships at some point as well (vesta has a taste of that).
As long as they keep releasing things that are super good with out being game breaking... and don't do anything stupid like release ships with 2 more console slots... or start selling extra active boff space... it should balance out.
Also on the BOFFS people like to complain about... give them 6 months to a year and there will be so many new Lockbox and or Zen cost Space Boffs... that people will forget about the romulan advantage on space boffs. We will be at a point where there will be to many good options and not enough space for them.
Traits will go the same way... 10 slots right now... and only 2 lockbox traits... next lockbox isn't far off... expect another 2 Space traits min. Give them 6 months there and we will be arguing about which traits are best to slot.
Doffs I think are pretty balanced right now... there are so many good options that it becomes a problem deciding which to run... and do you stack to 3 and give something up.
DMG control... Attack Pattern Doffs... Overload Doffs... Aux to Damp Doffs... Tech doffs... Torp Doffs.... ect ect ect
There is no way you can load everything you would LIKE to have with you on any ship... lots of powerful doffs but you can't run them all.
Consoles are starting to go that way now... its that way for the roms now... I think they will do that with the fed and klink ships at some point as well (vesta has a taste of that).
As long as they keep releasing things that are super good with out being game breaking... and don't do anything stupid like release ships with 2 more console slots... or start selling extra active boff space... it should balance out.
Also on the BOFFS people like to complain about... give them 6 months to a year and there will be so many new Lockbox and or Zen cost Space Boffs... that people will forget about the romulan advantage on space boffs. We will be at a point where there will be to many good options and not enough space for them.
Traits will go the same way... 10 slots right now... and only 2 lockbox traits... next lockbox isn't far off... expect another 2 Space traits min. Give them 6 months there and we will be arguing about which traits are best to slot.
haha ya can you imagine the Tournament rules in 6 months. lol
No X Y Z Skills....
No A B C pets...
No Q and R skills...
No F G H I J AND K consoles... unless you are an engi in L or M then you may run consoles H I and or J
For Reputation A no Tier four choice A.. for Rep B no Tier 5 skill use...f or Rep C no restriction for Rep D no Tier 2 Choice B. lol
No S T U or V space traits... accept Sci players they may slot U and Engi has no restrictions. lol
At this point I think we either buy into what they are cooking... or just move on.
I don't like much of it myself but what can you do.... I know what you can do in fact.
/Channel_join Tyler Durden
Where we balance this stuff by balancing this stuff... after being forced to fight your friends running some of this TRIBBLE after a few matches it is shocking how some people choose to take it off at least for the fight club. lol
Sorry Naz not the point of your thread... but join us for some TD beat downs... where we all just punch each other till the score board says 15 14.
As long as my W X Y & Z powers aren't compromised I might do that
On a different note, anything that tries to tackle the same problem in a potentially different manner is all good.
so in short: OP is the new OK, unless its broken.
I m ready to embrace the mad genius that systems embodies. Will have to change my sig one of these days. But another S1.2 rebalance will just never happen.
S8 Territory control, just as demanded, only without the whole PvP component.
Doffs I think are pretty balanced right now... there are so many good options that it becomes a problem deciding which to run... and do you stack to 3 and give something up.
I'll agree with this to an extent yeah, DOFFs have a quite a variety of choice for builds.
Although I think if we made a list we could quickly boil down the top DOFFs compared to the rest, but even I admit to get everything perfectly balanced is an impossible and unrealistic goal.
I still think there are quite a few outliers with regards to being under-performing or over-performing items, but in general it's possible bringing up the bottom to pad the middle against the top might actually be working to an extent.
That doesn't necessarily say anything about the implementation and release of things, but for some areas it's the best shot at balance cryptic has since they clearly will not be nerfing paid for items without some really, really good excucse.
Thought for the day, tournament with only one rule: No fleet or set shields. Now before you get your pitch forks and what not out hear me out (more like read on...) :
My thought is that everybody in a soccer match always looks at the striker as the one who personifies the team, but the goal keepers have always been the unsung heroes.
Likewise, what if the tournament is geared to be all about the keepers i.e. the healers of STO. Rather than most kills, the least deaths.....
Concept worthy of Tyler Durden? What say you?
On a different note, does "Balance through Saturation" fit into the Tyler Durden way?
Thought for the day, tournament with only one rule: No fleet or set shields. Now before you get your pitch forks and what not out hear me out (more like read on...) :
My thought is that everybody in a soccer match always looks at the striker as the one who personifies the team, but the goal keepers have always been the unsung heroes.
Likewise, what if the tournament is geared to be all about the keepers i.e. the healers of STO. Rather than most kills, the least deaths.....
Concept worthy of Tyler Durden? What say you?
On a different note, does "Balance through Saturation" fit into the Tyler Durden way?
Ya no set or fleet shields... why not. lol
I am planning to do a lethal lotto mini tourny right away naz. I was planning on having zero rules at all... just have fun and punch each other and all. lol
I am just not 100% sure when I am going to do it yet... I had a death in the family this week... and have funerals and stuff to take care of... was thinking this upcoming weekend but might just do it the one after. lol
I'm fine with doing some afternoon tournaments in TD... I just don't want anything to be about fleet politics... thats why I'm thinking lethal lotto, everyone fights no Fleet Egos to stroke.
I am planning to do a lethal lotto mini tourny right away naz. I was planning on having zero rules at all... just have fun and punch each other and all. lol
I am just not 100% sure when I am going to do it yet... I had a death in the family this week... and have funerals and stuff to take care of... was thinking this upcoming weekend but might just do it the one after. lol
I'm fine with doing some afternoon tournaments in TD... I just don't want anything to be about fleet politics... thats why I'm thinking lethal lotto, everyone fights no Fleet Egos to stroke.
Sounds good to me man.
I just wanted to add twists in it, that's all to highlight other parts of PvP that are just as important as tactical roles.
Comments
True
Very true
Awesome! If this was true, if i was on the receiving end of a macro beating me - i'd quit PvP - The shame of a linear macro beating me........
Also, there are enough of my videos on youtube to prove otherwise.
Thanks bud......
Just to continue the "Balance through Saturation", this also applies to DOFFS and did apply to captain abilities (increased the amount of abilities recently ish) - Controlled via limiting the slot numbers.
Random question - Are there any "Must have" DOFFS - (shield distro of old) in all ships and not just specifics (Like Marion for DEM)? If there isn't anymore, this aspect may have achieved balance through saturation. Been out of game for a month or two so can't answer this myself at this point in time.
To be honest, the only way we would achieve mythical balance which everybody yearns for is to have 3 fixed ships in PvP. Healer, support (Sci) and tac all with fixed load outs in every manner. Maybe only variation is faction specific.
You choose as a team how many of each in the team before the match starts.
Fast forward 2 - 3 months and watch the queues die off due to a vanilla PvP experience. (Maybe a good idea for newcomers to PvP as a separate game play mode)
So what would you have?
Question: Do secondary shields require main shields to be up or do they operate independently?
Actually, imagine Cryptic as Syndrome and you got it spot on
They could work exactly like the Scim secondary shield console.
I don't think your main shields need to be up no.
Something like that set would need to be have different cool down times on the 2 piece and the console .... meaning you could do one perfect Secondary shield + Beta Tach shield resist... and after that you would have to either wait cool downs on both or no use it that way.
If you asked me 2 months ago if a secondary shield console would be op I would have said hell ya it is.... but honestly after seeing them in action on the Schmitars... the mechanic isn't game breaking.
Considering all the you can't kill me consoles the Vesta has... I think something like that for one of the fed fleet sci ships would be rocking...
I think Cryptic could redo 5-10 of the Fleet ships into Elite Versions with very cool 2 piece console sets with in a couple days work... very little new art... they can recycle ideas already in game like the Secondary shields... ect.
There's so many DOFFs, it really depends on your build and preference.
I use the Warp Core Engineer (Tal Shiar lockbox) that gives the following (http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=690821):
Warp Core Engineer
Chance for Emergency Power to X to cleanse all negative effects (Debuffs, Controls and DOTs)
o Provides periodic cleansing every 0.5sec for 2sec duration when triggered.
o Chance to activate scales as follows: 20% / 30% / 40%
Since Warp Core Engineers are restricted to one, it works out well. Also, the description from the DOFF notes is different from what it says on the actual DOFF. Namely, it's an instant trigger and does not continue to cleanse negative effects.
I also use the Shield Power variant of the Energy Weapons Officer (http://sto.gamepedia.com/Specialization:_Energy_Weapons_Officer#Shield_Power_variant):
Chance to gain Shield Power when firing Energy Weapons
- Buff lasts for 10sec, and provides +20 Shield Power each time it procs
- You cannot benefit from multiple procs during any 10 second period
- This power bonus does not stack with the Projectile Weapons Officer power that grants the same benefit
- Equipping both (or multiple of either) will only increase the chance of triggering, not the power benefit
- Chance to activate: 5%
While you can have more than one of this DOFF, +20 is the maximum power you can achieve. I only run one of these.
I used to run one of the SNB DOFFs, but I get higher chances to proc with the two that I currently have. I'll so, less crying about it from those who don't like it.
That was exactly what I was thinking of, set sold :P
To be fair, they DID put in the Zero-Point console in Romulan rep.
Similar with boff/captain (mixed/otherwise) powers it's always been the stacking/non-clearing effects that are the issue.
I agree had they put some effort into PVP (I can't say earlier since it's still the same) their model could be better. The better isn't the game it's the new mechanics and ships available. When you can do 200k dmg in 3-4s that is a bit of a issue. You wouldn't need to be able to do that had the adjustments from early S3 been stuck too. J/S
They have put the game to a point where it's F2Pers (and even older players) QQ'ing they can't win against groups and players that just do better.
It's what it is. I hope there is a place with PVP but waiting another year or two isn't a option. Too much crying and not enough challenged when properly grouped.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Generally, the guys in our fleet build their escorts for as much offense as makes realistic sense.
As long as survivability isn't completely compromised, everything goes to offense.
Especially doffs.
Doffs I think are pretty balanced right now... there are so many good options that it becomes a problem deciding which to run... and do you stack to 3 and give something up.
DMG control... Attack Pattern Doffs... Overload Doffs... Aux to Damp Doffs... Tech doffs... Torp Doffs.... ect ect ect
There is no way you can load everything you would LIKE to have with you on any ship... lots of powerful doffs but you can't run them all.
Consoles are starting to go that way now... its that way for the roms now... I think they will do that with the fed and klink ships at some point as well (vesta has a taste of that).
As long as they keep releasing things that are super good with out being game breaking... and don't do anything stupid like release ships with 2 more console slots... or start selling extra active boff space... it should balance out.
Also on the BOFFS people like to complain about... give them 6 months to a year and there will be so many new Lockbox and or Zen cost Space Boffs... that people will forget about the romulan advantage on space boffs. We will be at a point where there will be to many good options and not enough space for them.
Traits will go the same way... 10 slots right now... and only 2 lockbox traits... next lockbox isn't far off... expect another 2 Space traits min. Give them 6 months there and we will be arguing about which traits are best to slot.
Nah, we'll be banning this and that trait
haha ya can you imagine the Tournament rules in 6 months. lol
No X Y Z Skills....
No A B C pets...
No Q and R skills...
No F G H I J AND K consoles... unless you are an engi in L or M then you may run consoles H I and or J
For Reputation A no Tier four choice A.. for Rep B no Tier 5 skill use...f or Rep C no restriction for Rep D no Tier 2 Choice B. lol
No S T U or V space traits... accept Sci players they may slot U and Engi has no restrictions. lol
At this point I think we either buy into what they are cooking... or just move on.
I don't like much of it myself but what can you do.... I know what you can do in fact.
/Channel_join Tyler Durden
Where we balance this stuff by balancing this stuff... after being forced to fight your friends running some of this TRIBBLE after a few matches it is shocking how some people choose to take it off at least for the fight club. lol
Sorry Naz not the point of your thread... but join us for some TD beat downs... where we all just punch each other till the score board says 15 14.
On a different note, anything that tries to tackle the same problem in a potentially different manner is all good.
so in short: OP is the new OK, unless its broken.
I m ready to embrace the mad genius that systems embodies. Will have to change my sig one of these days. But another S1.2 rebalance will just never happen.
S8 Territory control, just as demanded, only without the whole PvP component.
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
I'll agree with this to an extent yeah, DOFFs have a quite a variety of choice for builds.
Although I think if we made a list we could quickly boil down the top DOFFs compared to the rest, but even I admit to get everything perfectly balanced is an impossible and unrealistic goal.
I still think there are quite a few outliers with regards to being under-performing or over-performing items, but in general it's possible bringing up the bottom to pad the middle against the top might actually be working to an extent.
That doesn't necessarily say anything about the implementation and release of things, but for some areas it's the best shot at balance cryptic has since they clearly will not be nerfing paid for items without some really, really good excucse.
The only real balancing needed imo is boosting some underpowered boff powers and lolromulans
My thought is that everybody in a soccer match always looks at the striker as the one who personifies the team, but the goal keepers have always been the unsung heroes.
Likewise, what if the tournament is geared to be all about the keepers i.e. the healers of STO. Rather than most kills, the least deaths.....
Concept worthy of Tyler Durden? What say you?
On a different note, does "Balance through Saturation" fit into the Tyler Durden way?
Ya no set or fleet shields... why not. lol
I am planning to do a lethal lotto mini tourny right away naz.
I am just not 100% sure when I am going to do it yet... I had a death in the family this week... and have funerals and stuff to take care of... was thinking this upcoming weekend but might just do it the one after. lol
I'm fine with doing some afternoon tournaments in TD... I just don't want anything to be about fleet politics... thats why I'm thinking lethal lotto, everyone fights no Fleet Egos to stroke.
Sounds good to me man.
I just wanted to add twists in it, that's all to highlight other parts of PvP that are just as important as tactical roles.
Lethal lotto is a cracking idea.
Sad news about the death bit. Hope all is ok