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Forums > Home› Star Trek Online General Discussion

Shouldn't Torpedo Systems Have A Greater Firing Range Than Direct Energy Weapons?

praetorniralpraetorniral Member Posts: 60 Arc User
edited August 2013 in Star Trek Online General Discussion
If this game were being a bit more canon then shouldn't the torpedo systems have a greater firing range than phasers, disruptors, polaran beams et al?

In the original series the maximum firing range of the Enterprise's phasers is put at 300,000 kilometres and the photon torpedoes at 750,000 kilometres which means the photons have 2.5 times the firing range of the phasers when fired in normal space.

According to the Pocket Books Technical Manuals (written by those who have worked on the series/movies) for the Enterprise D and the station in Deep Space Nine with 24th century Starfleet vessels and Starbases the maximum range of the phasers remains 300,00 kilometres. For the then latest version of the photon torpedo at the height of the Dominion War the maximum range is put at 4,050,000 kilometres. Or 13.5 times the range of the phasers. (Same range for quantum torpedoes.)

In game combat we are in firing range for all weapons when you are no more than 10 km away from an enemy target. If we were more canon then if we kept to the above formulation for the latest 24/25th century torpedoes then we could fire them from about 135 Kilometres away but that for game play purposes would be ridiculous. But why not as in TOS be able to have at least 2.5 times the range of the energy weapons for torpedo systems so they could be fired from up to about 25 kilometres away?
Post edited by praetorniral on

Comments

  • jumpingjsjumpingjs Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    YES!
    CRYPTIC please IMPLEMENT!
    Hopefully I'll come back from my break; this break is fun; I play intellectual games.

    I hope STO get's better ...
  • askrayaskray Member Posts: 3,329 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    praetorniral wrote: »
    If this game were being a bit more canon then shouldn't the torpedo systems have a greater firing range than phasers, disruptors, polaran beams et al?

    In the original series the maximum firing range of the Enterprise's phasers is put at 300,000 kilometres and the photon torpedoes at 750,000 kilometres which means the photons have 2.5 times the firing range of the phasers when fired in normal space.

    According to the Pocket Books Technical Manuals (written by those who have worked on the series/movies) for the Enterprise D and the station in Deep Space Nine with 24th century Starfleet vessels and Starbases the maximum range of the phasers remains 300,00 kilometres. For the then latest version of the photon torpedo at the height of the Dominion War the maximum range is put at 4,050,000 kilometres. Or 13.5 times the range of the phasers. (Same range for quantum torpedoes.)

    In game combat we are in firing range for all weapons when you are no more than 10 km away from an enemy target. If we were more canon then if we kept to the above formulation for the latest 24/25th century torpedoes then we could fire them from about 135 Kilometres away but that for game play purposes would be ridiculous. But why not as in TOS be able to have at least 2.5 times the range of the energy weapons for torpedo systems so they could be fired from up to about 25 kilometres away?
    Bio-Neural Warhead can be fired more than 10km away.

    Plus you gotta realize something - This is still a game and as such, some "realism" has to take a back seat.
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  • aarons9aarons9 Member Posts: 961
    edited August 2013
    at 2.5 times the range and the speed of most torpedoes most of the ships you are shooting at would be blown up before they even get there..

    as it is now most of the ships are blown up before the torpedoes get there..


    plus the damage of the torps are severely reduced with full shields..
    the idea is to shoot down the shields with the beams/cannons before firing the torps..
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  • jumpingjsjumpingjs Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    aarons9 wrote: »
    at 2.5 times the range and the speed of most torpedoes most of the ships you are shooting at would be blown up before they even get there..

    as it is now most of the ships are blown up before the torpedoes get there..


    plus the damage of the torps are severely reduced with full shields..
    the idea is to shoot down the shields with the beams/cannons before firing the torps..

    While in the TV show, a torp blast to your shield was Neeerrrt good!
    Hopefully I'll come back from my break; this break is fun; I play intellectual games.

    I hope STO get's better ...
  • similonsimilon Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    Well in the episodes a Bird of Prey's effective firing range is =<40,000km. So, we should all start firing from 39,600km outside the opposite end of the biggest maps? :D
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  • praetorniralpraetorniral Member Posts: 60 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    aarons9 wrote: »
    at 2.5 times the range and the speed of most torpedoes most of the ships you are shooting at would be blown up before they even get there.

    Well that's just it isn't it. The current speed because if Cryptic really knows anything about the nuances of technology in the Star Trek universe it should also know something about the comparative speed in canon of certainly photon/quantum torpedoes to phasers.

    Speed of light c is put at actually 298000 Kilometres per second (KPS); say 300,000 for simplicity.

    Phasers in canon maximum range 300,00 KPS. Phasers travel at c So time to hit target greater than 0 and less than and equal to 1 second

    Latest canon in prime universe photon torpedo maximum range 4,050,000 KPS . Torpedoes in technical manuals travel at 0.75 c so time to hit target greater than 0 and less than and equal to 18 seconds Quantums travel at 0.993 c so time to hit target greater than 0 and less than and equal to 13. 595 seconds.

    Point is while the game has indeed limitations for comparative realism the relativistic velocity of these torpedoes to phasers/ direct energy weapons that are supposed to travel at light speed should only be only fractionally slower than them when fired in phaser range. (When based in canon.) When Captain Picard's had a bad day and he orders "fire all weapons" the simultaneous firing of the phasers and torpedoes should be such that when fired in phaser range the torpedoes should be only very slightly behind for the difference to be practically unnoticeable.(Should look more like a tennis player serving an ace.)

    In the game if you fire a torpedo like a transphasic you might as well make yourself a cup of coffee (or so it seems) when you've fired an energy weapon at the same target at the same distance before it gets there.

    So I agree if that's what your also getting at that the in game physics should be adjusted at any range so that any torpedoes when fired aren't so ridiculously behind the direct energy weapons.
  • adamma1701adamma1701 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    Isn't much point in trying to use real figures to figure out weapon range and travel time based off the speed of light in vacuum. That would be a nice touch of realism, but...

    All the weapons have a range of 10km in sto... which bugs the heck out of me.. considering contemporary missiles have a range thousands of Km's, it's just a annoying pet peeve of mine...

    I just have to pretend it's 10'000 or 100'000.

    -cheers
  • marshalericdavidmarshalericdavid Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    I do think Torps should have more range then energy weapons.
  • thecosmic1thecosmic1 Member Posts: 9,365 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    The ranges are what they are in the game due to player limitations, not system mechanics. Some people play on 30" screens (raises hand), some people play on 13" laptop screens. You need to be able to see your targets. Trying to target something small, even at 10k, can be difficult. At 50k it'd be nearly impossible to see it let alone target.

    The last thing we need is PvPers screaming how Cryptic only loves the rich players who can buy big screens. :)
    STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
  • aegon1iceaegon1ice Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    They have...just ask the Borg ships next time in an STF :D


    Technically, yes. Torpedoes would have a much longer firing range.
  • praetorniralpraetorniral Member Posts: 60 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    thecosmic1 wrote: »
    The ranges are what they are in the game due to player limitations, not system mechanics. Some people play on 30" screens (raises hand), some people play on 13" laptop screens. You need to be able to see your targets. Trying to target something small, even at 10k, can be difficult. At 50k it'd be nearly impossible to see it let alone target. :)

    Point taken but as in Bridge Commander couldn't there be a target view magnification option regardless of the screen size anybody uses? Obviously for player practicalities there would have to be limitations to any increased range but as I said I'll settle for higher torpedo speed at the very least.
  • marshalericdavidmarshalericdavid Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    sopwithsnipe wrote: »
    Let's also not forget game balance. If torps were realistic no one would choose to carry energy weapons at all.

    Unless they made all ships have energy weapon slots and torpedo slots.
  • adverberoadverbero Member Posts: 2,045 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    Yeah but then its also irritating that the ships carry unlimited supplies of torpedoes

    I much prefer having an actual ammo stack in the ship, and this much would give specific torp boats like the akira , and cruisers with their increased storage space a bit of an edge

    marshalericdavid wrote: »
    Unless they made all ships have energy weapon slots and torpedo slots.

    This i would back, infact i'd go further and open up canon numbers of slots including the number of canon stated torp launchers

    Also i think that some of the wep slots should be moved round to the sides and top and bottom of the ship( though that would probably be moot since theres limited 3 axis movement) but hey i've gone slightly off topic there
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  • shadowwraith77shadowwraith77 Member Posts: 6,395 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    I have played a ST game where it allowed for manual weapons fire from further distances but your odds of hitting is quite low, once they got within targeting range your accuracy was precise. It would be nice to have something to that effect on here, but instead they implement that 10km is computer weapons targeting range for pretty much every weapon, but save a few. Torpedo's can travel once fired further than the 10km range, but they are slow and may not catch up to their intended target.
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  • icsairgunsicsairguns Member Posts: 1,504 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    askray wrote: »
    Bio-Neural Warhead can be fired more than 10km away.

    Plus you gotta realize something - This is still a game and as such, some "realism" has to take a back seat.

    pointing out a sole weapon that is also zen store only reinforces the idea that this has turned into a pay to win game.
    Trophies for killing FEDS ahh those were the days. Ch'ar%20POST%20LoR.JPG


  • kalvorax#3775 kalvorax
    kalvorax#3775
         Member Posts: 1,663 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    icsairguns wrote: »
    pointing out a sole weapon that is also zen store only reinforces the idea that this has turned into a pay to win game.

    zen store KDF side...EC Fed side
  • icsairgunsicsairguns Member Posts: 1,504 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    cynder2012 wrote: »
    zen store KDF side...EC Fed side

    and your point is?

    I played fed side only long enough to get into a Klingon and haven't looked back. so for me it is only a zen item.
    Trophies for killing FEDS ahh those were the days. Ch'ar%20POST%20LoR.JPG


  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 11,556 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    Star Trek hasn't been too consistent with science. A torpedo traveling at 0.75c would effectively rip the target ship apart. That is without any type of explosion. Just a dud torpedo that doesn't explode. Would need something like Neutronium to survive. If you want to destroy a planet, then all that is necessary is have a fleet of ships and travel to a planet's surface at full impulse or better yet, hit a planet at Warp.
  • lordvalecortezlordvalecortez Member Posts: 479 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    starkaos wrote: »
    Star Trek hasn't been too consistent with science. A torpedo traveling at 0.75c would effectively rip the target ship apart. That is without any type of explosion. Just a dud torpedo that doesn't explode. Would need something like Neutronium to survive. If you want to destroy a planet, then all that is necessary is have a fleet of ships and travel to a planet's surface at full impulse or better yet, hit a planet at Warp.

    Unless there is some weapons ban that everyone is agreeing to, this alone would make torps insanely deadly. And would make energy weapons obsolete. To quote a DI from another game franchise: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLpgxry542M

    And this is only at 1% of c...
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  • lianthelialianthelia Member Posts: 7,897 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    If this game were more realistic to the show torpedos would also do more than squat diddly damage to shields...
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  • supergaminggeeksupergaminggeek Member Posts: 616 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    Maybe it should be like the EVE Online method where accuracy goes out the roof the farther away you get from the optimal range.
  • skanvakskanvak Member Posts: 16 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    First, thanks for the video about the effect of apellet send at high speed. I remind, that yes, a constitution class is able to wipe out a planet surface (kirk threaten a world of mass destruction in an episode and was not bluffing. It was "wargames" I think but I am not sure). So yes a torpedo impacting a city would destroy it and the surrounding.

    The Ship in Star Trek though are more resilient, especially because of the shield and the integrity field. Though I do think that the impact when you have no shield is way to low : in "The Warth of Kahn" a direct torpedo impact create a hole in the saucer or simply explode a warp nacel. I don't think you can repair a missing warp nacel in a matter of minute...

    That say, the 10 km or 100 000 km is irrelevant as in SFC2 the range was effectively 300 000 km but it look like STO if you take the range in pixel. Then we have to speak in effective range and theorical range. In SFC2 the theoric range in 300 000 kn but the pratical range is more about 150 000 or 80 000 which translate as 8km in STO. Though I do think that we should be able to see farther and fire an longer range, the effective fighting range can stay 10 km (or 10 space units).

    That being said, the show say torpedo can be fire at x2.5 the phaser range. This is more interesting. Though I don't think that ship can be effectively target at this distance (they will evade the torpedo if they move just a little) but it make sense to bombard a base or fixed turrets. Which will make incentive to base defender to get out of their base.

    Bottom line, I in favor to stick to stay true to the series, this is Star Trek. Balancing should be second to that.
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  • theroyalfamilytheroyalfamily Member Posts: 300 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    lordvalecortez wrote: »
    Unless there is some weapons ban that everyone is agreeing to, this alone would make torps insanely deadly. And would make energy weapons obsolete. To quote a DI from another game franchise: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLpgxry542M

    And this is only at 1% of c...

    The ships/torps do not have the energy of something going very fast - that's the whole point of warp engines. Impulse engines also must have some sort warp/subspace field, because even sublight speeds reached by the ships would require much more energy than the ships are able to produce.
  • taschenbillard12taschenbillard12 Member Posts: 6 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    lianthelia wrote: »
    If this game were more realistic to the show torpedos would also do more than squat diddly damage to shields...

    if they were, you would actually need torpedos
  • angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 11,008 Arc User
    edited August 2013
    I think they should have never shown "ranges" in STO in "km" but instead some abstract "unit" to avoid confusion over those ridiculously low weapon ranges. Aside from that, I'd strongly be in favour of varying weapon ranges, allowing for torpedo builds to provide an "artillery" role, though torpedoes fired at greater distances could be evaded more easily while frigates and raiders would need to evade and close in delivering decisive strafing runs. Beams should also have higher ranges than cannons, firther reinforcing cruisers multi-function role.
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