Those numbers are still pretty small compared to some energy only tacscorts pumping out 12k+ DPS a second - the target is often dead LONG before any 8k torp even gets there!!
Torps are becoming obsolete and Cryptic needs to do something to buff these iconic Trek weapons.
You could take it one step higher and argue that everything other than a Jem Dread Carrier and Scimitar pushing 18k DPS, is pretty feeble in comparison. By that logic, anything which isn't a carrier is obsolete.
But ultimately anything in the neighborhood of 5-6k for pug STFs is good enough for a timely and safe completion with little to no risk, anything above that just speeds up the Time To Complete.
You could take it one step higher and argue that everything other than a Jem Dread Carrier and Scimitar pushing 18k DPS, is pretty feeble in comparison. By that logic, anything which isn't a carrier is obsolete.
But ultimately anything in the neighborhood of 5-6k for pug STFs is good enough for a timely and safe completion with little to no risk, anything above that just speeds up the Time To Complete.
Well PvE is so easy you could do it with Green level weapons. But torps have become useless in PvP - it's like another nail in the PvP coffin.
There have been so many shield penetrating buffs to energy weapons but nothing to torps - why??
we have rep that enhances energy weapon shield penetration and we have doffs that enhance energy weapon penetration - why none for Torps?? What about a projectile doff that enhances torp shield penetration? what about that being a big part of the next rep system?
Torp Spread and crits for the most part, I largely favor Transphasic cluster because it hits so hard it takes down most of the generator on its own. I can understand the feeling of uselessness. I think it stems mostly from the Travel Time on attacks in STO. Projectile -> Cannon -> Beam in that order where you end up sitting there wishing torpedoes traveled faster.
It evens out in the end over a longer duration, and for the most part in pve is largely irrelevant, but Torpedoes dooes lack that quick hitting sustain beams delivers.
It's usually a case of being worried about popping them too soon. Beams will do that nifty pace...the torps, well I can cloak - but the team will still know I'm the one that popped my gen too early - lol.
It's usually a case of being worried about popping them too soon. Beams will do that nifty pace...the torps, well I can cloak - but the team will still know I'm the one that popped my gen too early - lol.
But when was the last buff to torps? - How many rep buffs to energy weapons are there? How many rep buffs to shield penetration of enegry weapons? How many doffs that enhance enegry weapons? Now new doffs for beam overload to bypass shields?
Why nothing but nerf to torps?
personally I would love an answer from the man i trust to be most direct - Al Rivera
They're not used very often in PvE, because of all the unshielded targets. Gens, Trans, Gates...they're going to do less damage than Chrons. In PvP, with all the heavy shield tanking - outside of a BO/Quant build, you're likely going to see the most damage from Trans.
I myself run a BO3 + HY3 quantums build on a Fleet Norgh in PvP. Hit-and-run alphastriking, basically. When both the BO3 and the HY3 hit right, it's devastating. The torpedoes do a LOT of damage if they hit the hull. The problem is, half the time it'll be deflected by a shred of shielding or the target will have turned in time to have the torpedo hit a different shield facing. The BO3 only takes down one facing. . .and it doesn't even do THAT reliably, with all the ridiculously resistant and high-strength shields people run nowadays. I've smacked a big ship (can't remember if it was a cruiser or a carrier) with BO3 at full energy levels and with APA + APO buffs, only to have the shield go down about 50%.
It's usually a case of being worried about popping them too soon. Beams will do that nifty pace...the torps, well I can cloak - but the team will still know I'm the one that popped my gen too early - lol.
Yah I can relate to that as well, the only solution I have for that is to try to gauge your output and stop firing/swap target
Yah I can relate to that as well, the only solution I have for that is to try to gauge your output and stop firing/swap target
This is the problem - everyone is just considering torps as PvE weapons against unshielded targets. I guess they are somehat usefull still in this area as opposed to 100% useless in PvP.
Increase transphasics to 60% by-pass
Give us a doff that adds shield by-pass for torps(projectile)
Add a passive in the next rep that grants a % shield by-pass
This would make things closer to canon where torps did lots of damage through shields - of course the weaker the shield facing the more that got through - but I don't know if STO engine can incorporate that - only a dev could comment I guess.
This is the problem - everyone is just considering torps as PvE weapons against unshielded targets. I guess they are somehat usefull still in this area as opposed to 100% useless in PvP.
Not a case of just considering them in PvE in the least. A case of considering them in both, since both PvE and PvP exist in the game.
C'mon, you had to have seen my discussion going on in the Rommie boat thread over in the PvP forums - talking about the non-decloaking Torp'varo, the decloaking Torp'varo, and the decloaking energy T'varo.
Still think the shield-eating Fleet BOgai and the hull-smashing Fleet Torp'varo make an awesome tandem.
It's twisted if you look at the math.
A BO2 w/ 0x Tac consoles will do more shield damage than a Quant THY2 w/ 4x Tac consoles.
A Quant THY2 w/ 0x Tac consoles will do more hull damage than a BO2 w/ 4x Tac consoles.
You buff them, throw in a crit, and that disparity in damage increases all that much more.
Look at almost every included weapons payload for the ships Cryptic has put together, eh? They're almost all a 50-50 split of energy and kinetic. Lol, even the new Risian "C"orvette (I'm a Chevy guy, but c'mon - having to lowercase the C was stupid) has 4x Energy and 3x Kinetic.
Cryptic's setup that Energy for Shields and Kinetic for Hull. Which is generally fine to an extent in PvE because but a nightmare in PvP because:
1) Mobs generally don't have the shield cap that players do.
2) Mobs generally don't have the shield damage reduction that players do.
3) Mobs generally don't heal their shields like players do.
Which often means if you're going to see projectiles in PvP, it's going to be for the following reasons (this is not an always case, and often doesn't mean most of the time - I'm not saying these are the only reasons):
Quants timed with a BO and some CRF.
Trans to get at the hull (often with some other hull-smashing goodies).
Chrons for their speed debuff.
Plasma for their added burn (easily neutered in team play or AtB boats).
Trics for their stun (they've been nerfed out the wahzoo from being abused in PvE).
Photons...er...as an aside, if I could get Bio-Moleculars on a non-Rom - but yeah, I don't remember the last time I saw Photons in PvP.
So it might look like torps for damage need some love in PvP; but personally - I go back to the shield damage reduction and healing differences between mobs and players...and I think about all the places that causes problems, imho. I see that as the root of the problem regarding discussions such as Tac vs. Eng, Escort vs. Cruiser, DHCs vs. Beams. The amount of shield damage reduction and healing possible...funny, imho, how it's right there amidst so many of the problems in the game.
Trans do lower overall damage because of their increased bleed. If you bumped the bleed, don't you think that Cryptic would in turn decrease the base damage?
Give us a doff that adds shield by-pass for torps(projectile)
You're still going to be facing that 75% Kinetic resist...plus whatever shield damage reduction they have otherwise. Yes, the bleed is calculated first - but play around with some of the numbers, eh?
vs. non-Res shields: 10% to hull
vs. Res shields: 5% to hull, 5% to shields (still think that's a trip that the 5% kinetic goes to the shields while with energy the 5% magically disappears into the ether)
How much of a boost do you think Cryptic would actually give such a DOFF? 0.75% White, 1.25% Green, 2.5% Blue, 5% Purple? If that much?
Add a passive in the next rep that grants a % shield by-pass
Yeah, I wasn't happy that the Enhanced Shield Penetration is Energy only. Then again, I'm not happy that the Romulan 2pc Harness bonus doesn't boost Projectile DoTs. And then the whole Singularity Overcharge thing - where's the Projectile love, my Cryptic brothers? Where's that love? Ahem...
Depending on what that next Rep Grind...er System is - maybe it would make sense to have such a thing. I wouldn't expect it with the next one...don't think the next one is PvP. That won't be until the 2nd or 3rd one, imho - but who knows, eh?
This would make things closer to canon where torps did lots of damage through shields - of course the weaker the shield facing the more that got through - but I don't know if STO engine can incorporate that - only a dev could comment I guess.
There are already multiple scaling systems in place.
Crew mechanic is a scaling system.
Defense is a scaling system.
Energy Weapon damage is a scaling system.
Etc, etc, etc.
Yep, that would personally be my favorite - more Canon route. How many episodes/movies did we see the following:
Torp hits at 100% shields...rocks the boat a little.
Torp hits at 60% shields...sparks are flying and hair's getting out of place.
Torp hits at 40% shields...consoles are exploding and people are getting flung about.
Torp hits at 20% shields...we get the closeup of the the burnt and cut up guy, see all the smoke, bulkheads are collapsing, and one of the bridge officers asks, "What are we going to do?" or says, "We're all going to die." while we get a closeup on the captain deep in thought and contemplating their next action.
Then there are the actually abilities (APB, APD, APO, TS, HY, APA, TFleet, Sensor Scan) - but I'm not going to get into those outside of asking that Cryptic fix Torp Spread (you know how folks are exploiting this - c'mon, fix it).
But wait, before you post this VD - what's the ability-like and console-like mean?
Base Damage = TRIBBLE/Mk 0 Damage
+ modifications from skills, consoles, mark, rarity, etc. (these each provide a % of the Base)
= "New" Base Damage
+ modifications from abilities (these each provide a % of the "New" Base)
= Damage before shield reduction/hull resistance
Note: I'm probably forgetting something, this was just a quick post.
Then there are the actually abilities (APB, APD, APO, TS, HY, APA, TFleet, Sensor Scan) - but I'm not going to get into those outside of asking that Cryptic fix Torp Spread (you know how folks are exploiting this - c'mon, fix it).
But wait, before you post this VD - what's the ability-like and console-like mean?
Base Damage = TRIBBLE/Mk 0 Damage
+ modifications from skills, consoles, mark, rarity, etc. (these each provide a % of the Base)
= "New" Base Damage
+ modifications from abilities (these each provide a % of the "New" Base)
= Damage before shield reduction/hull resistance
Note: I'm probably forgetting something, this was just a quick post.
Comments
You could take it one step higher and argue that everything other than a Jem Dread Carrier and Scimitar pushing 18k DPS, is pretty feeble in comparison. By that logic, anything which isn't a carrier is obsolete.
But ultimately anything in the neighborhood of 5-6k for pug STFs is good enough for a timely and safe completion with little to no risk, anything above that just speeds up the Time To Complete.
Well PvE is so easy you could do it with Green level weapons. But torps have become useless in PvP - it's like another nail in the PvP coffin.
There have been so many shield penetrating buffs to energy weapons but nothing to torps - why??
we have rep that enhances energy weapon shield penetration and we have doffs that enhance energy weapon penetration - why none for Torps?? What about a projectile doff that enhances torp shield penetration? what about that being a big part of the next rep system?
It's usually a case of being worried about popping them too soon. Beams will do that nifty pace...the torps, well I can cloak - but the team will still know I'm the one that popped my gen too early - lol.
But when was the last buff to torps? - How many rep buffs to energy weapons are there? How many rep buffs to shield penetration of enegry weapons? How many doffs that enhance enegry weapons? Now new doffs for beam overload to bypass shields?
Why nothing but nerf to torps?
personally I would love an answer from the man i trust to be most direct - Al Rivera
I myself run a BO3 + HY3 quantums build on a Fleet Norgh in PvP. Hit-and-run alphastriking, basically. When both the BO3 and the HY3 hit right, it's devastating. The torpedoes do a LOT of damage if they hit the hull. The problem is, half the time it'll be deflected by a shred of shielding or the target will have turned in time to have the torpedo hit a different shield facing. The BO3 only takes down one facing. . .and it doesn't even do THAT reliably, with all the ridiculously resistant and high-strength shields people run nowadays. I've smacked a big ship (can't remember if it was a cruiser or a carrier) with BO3 at full energy levels and with APA + APO buffs, only to have the shield go down about 50%.
Yah I can relate to that as well, the only solution I have for that is to try to gauge your output and stop firing/swap target
This is the problem - everyone is just considering torps as PvE weapons against unshielded targets. I guess they are somehat usefull still in this area as opposed to 100% useless in PvP.
Increase transphasics to 60% by-pass
Give us a doff that adds shield by-pass for torps(projectile)
Add a passive in the next rep that grants a % shield by-pass
This would make things closer to canon where torps did lots of damage through shields - of course the weaker the shield facing the more that got through - but I don't know if STO engine can incorporate that - only a dev could comment I guess.
The Omega Graviton Enhancer actually works double for torpedo attacks. 5% instead of 2.5% and can be pretty nice with buffed spreads or high yields.
Not a case of just considering them in PvE in the least. A case of considering them in both, since both PvE and PvP exist in the game.
C'mon, you had to have seen my discussion going on in the Rommie boat thread over in the PvP forums - talking about the non-decloaking Torp'varo, the decloaking Torp'varo, and the decloaking energy T'varo.
Still think the shield-eating Fleet BOgai and the hull-smashing Fleet Torp'varo make an awesome tandem.
It's twisted if you look at the math.
A BO2 w/ 0x Tac consoles will do more shield damage than a Quant THY2 w/ 4x Tac consoles.
A Quant THY2 w/ 0x Tac consoles will do more hull damage than a BO2 w/ 4x Tac consoles.
You buff them, throw in a crit, and that disparity in damage increases all that much more.
Look at almost every included weapons payload for the ships Cryptic has put together, eh? They're almost all a 50-50 split of energy and kinetic. Lol, even the new Risian "C"orvette (I'm a Chevy guy, but c'mon - having to lowercase the C was stupid) has 4x Energy and 3x Kinetic.
Cryptic's setup that Energy for Shields and Kinetic for Hull. Which is generally fine to an extent in PvE because but a nightmare in PvP because:
1) Mobs generally don't have the shield cap that players do.
2) Mobs generally don't have the shield damage reduction that players do.
3) Mobs generally don't heal their shields like players do.
Which often means if you're going to see projectiles in PvP, it's going to be for the following reasons (this is not an always case, and often doesn't mean most of the time - I'm not saying these are the only reasons):
Quants timed with a BO and some CRF.
Trans to get at the hull (often with some other hull-smashing goodies).
Chrons for their speed debuff.
Plasma for their added burn (easily neutered in team play or AtB boats).
Trics for their stun (they've been nerfed out the wahzoo from being abused in PvE).
Photons...er...as an aside, if I could get Bio-Moleculars on a non-Rom - but yeah, I don't remember the last time I saw Photons in PvP.
So it might look like torps for damage need some love in PvP; but personally - I go back to the shield damage reduction and healing differences between mobs and players...and I think about all the places that causes problems, imho. I see that as the root of the problem regarding discussions such as Tac vs. Eng, Escort vs. Cruiser, DHCs vs. Beams. The amount of shield damage reduction and healing possible...funny, imho, how it's right there amidst so many of the problems in the game.
But oh well...
Trans do lower overall damage because of their increased bleed. If you bumped the bleed, don't you think that Cryptic would in turn decrease the base damage?
You're still going to be facing that 75% Kinetic resist...plus whatever shield damage reduction they have otherwise. Yes, the bleed is calculated first - but play around with some of the numbers, eh?
vs. non-Res shields: 10% to hull
vs. Res shields: 5% to hull, 5% to shields (still think that's a trip that the 5% kinetic goes to the shields while with energy the 5% magically disappears into the ether)
How much of a boost do you think Cryptic would actually give such a DOFF? 0.75% White, 1.25% Green, 2.5% Blue, 5% Purple? If that much?
Yeah, I wasn't happy that the Enhanced Shield Penetration is Energy only. Then again, I'm not happy that the Romulan 2pc Harness bonus doesn't boost Projectile DoTs. And then the whole Singularity Overcharge thing - where's the Projectile love, my Cryptic brothers? Where's that love? Ahem...
Depending on what that next Rep Grind...er System is - maybe it would make sense to have such a thing. I wouldn't expect it with the next one...don't think the next one is PvP. That won't be until the 2nd or 3rd one, imho - but who knows, eh?
There are already multiple scaling systems in place.
Crew mechanic is a scaling system.
Defense is a scaling system.
Energy Weapon damage is a scaling system.
Etc, etc, etc.
Yep, that would personally be my favorite - more Canon route. How many episodes/movies did we see the following:
Torp hits at 100% shields...rocks the boat a little.
Torp hits at 60% shields...sparks are flying and hair's getting out of place.
Torp hits at 40% shields...consoles are exploding and people are getting flung about.
Torp hits at 20% shields...we get the closeup of the the burnt and cut up guy, see all the smoke, bulkheads are collapsing, and one of the bridge officers asks, "What are we going to do?" or says, "We're all going to die." while we get a closeup on the captain deep in thought and contemplating their next action.
/cough
Just saying...
(Plasma Destabilizer - provides a -33 damage resistance debuff for 15s)
2pc KHG +25% damage (console-like mod)
Rule 62 +11% damage (console-like mod)
4x Tac consoles +28.1% to +30% damage each
Borg +9.2% CrtD & +0.92% CrtH
0Point +1.8% CrtH
Tachyo +7.6% CrtD & +0.76% CrtH
Omega Deflector +2.75% Accuracy (for potential Accuracy Overflow and +CrtD/+CrtH)
T2 Omega: Omega Weapon Training (+15% damage (console-like mod))
T4 Omega: Omega Graviton Amplifier (5% chance to do 751.4 damage to hull, can't be buffed - can't be resisted)
T2 New Rom: Precision (+3% CrtH)
T4 Nukara: Auxiliary Power Configuration - Offense (variable +0% to +26% damage (console-like mod))
DOFF - PWO: decrease Torp recharge
Captain Trait - Covert Operative: +3.8% CrtD & +1.5% CrtH (stacks)
Captain Trait - Infiltrator: +7.5s Ambush damage duration (stacks)
(those two are exclusive - can't have both)
Captain Trait - Accuracy: +10% Accuracy (for potential Accuracy Overflow and +CrtD/+CrtH)
BOFF Trait - Subterfuge: +10% Ambush damage (ability-like mod, does not stack)
BOFF Trait - Superior Infiltrator (Reman): +10s Ambush damage duration (stacks)
BOFF Trait - Superior Operative (Romulan): +5% CrtD & +2% CrtH (stacks)
Skill - 9 Weapon Training: +49.5% damage (console-like mod)
Skill - 9 Projectile Weapons: +49.5% damage (console-like mod)
Skill - 9 Projectile Weapons Specialization: +25% CrtD & +2% CrtH
Cloaked +15% damage (ability-like mod)
Decloak/Ambush +15% (ability-like mod)
Decloak/Ambush w/Sub BOFF +25% (ability-like mod)
Then there are the actually abilities (APB, APD, APO, TS, HY, APA, TFleet, Sensor Scan) - but I'm not going to get into those outside of asking that Cryptic fix Torp Spread (you know how folks are exploiting this - c'mon, fix it).
But wait, before you post this VD - what's the ability-like and console-like mean?
Base Damage = TRIBBLE/Mk 0 Damage
+ modifications from skills, consoles, mark, rarity, etc. (these each provide a % of the Base)
= "New" Base Damage
+ modifications from abilities (these each provide a % of the "New" Base)
= Damage before shield reduction/hull resistance
Note: I'm probably forgetting something, this was just a quick post.
lol, you've just posted my layout