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give fed cruisers an extra forward torpedo slot
ursusmorologus
Member Posts: 5,328 Arc User
Fed cruisers are in desperate need of a boost. Yes, there are some builds that let cruiser captains create very high DPS numbers but those rely on slow and/or immobile targets that let the pilot position the ship in such a way as to maximize weapon spray on multiple targets simultaneously. In fast and kinetic combat environments, they have to shift to a defensive posture, one where they are losing slowly instead of winning quickly. Given the nature of combat in this game, that puts them at a significant disadvantage. Furthermore, they are simply outclassed by almost every other ship class in the game--the Klingon Battlecruisers and Romulan Cruisers can mount cannons, have cloaking capabilities, can launch pets (Orion and Jem'Hadar), and so forth. Fed cruisers need something special, and a slight boost in overall threat potential, but without making them seriously OP in stationary combat.
My proposal here is to give them a single dedicated torpedo hard-point on the forward arc. The exisiting beam hard-points can still mount torpedoes, but the new hard-point cannot mount beams or anything except torpedoes. Some of the arguments in support of this:
It provides a path to a little bit of spike damage.
It allows cruisers to mount 4 beams on the saucer, without losing their torpedo. Cruisers are balanced for four beams already, so this does not make the energy damage overpowering.
It allows captains to build cruisers with 5 torpedoes forward, which is a Unique Feature. Since the Fed cruisers have such poor turn rates, the Unique Feature can only be exploited when the ship is facing forward (-ish) [I'm aware of the wide-angle].
The 5th torpedo and the 4 beams cannot be easily used at the same time (except in the case of the wide angle, which may need to be revisited). It is possible to use them with some good piloting skills, dipping the nose in towards the target at the end of the beam cycle, but for ships that need to position themselves next to stationary targets it is not going to be a significant contributor (ships cannot turn quick enough at zero speed).
It makes the forward arc of the ship more threatening. Given that beam array broadsides make the sides threatening already, this would by defintion, make the aft arc the most likely target area. Its long been a irritant of mine that the forward arc on a cruiser is one of its weak spots. That goes against everything we know about Star Trek cruisers on film.
It's canon! Federation cruisers in Star Trek have always had torpedo hard-point(s).
My proposal here is to give them a single dedicated torpedo hard-point on the forward arc. The exisiting beam hard-points can still mount torpedoes, but the new hard-point cannot mount beams or anything except torpedoes. Some of the arguments in support of this:
It provides a path to a little bit of spike damage.
It allows cruisers to mount 4 beams on the saucer, without losing their torpedo. Cruisers are balanced for four beams already, so this does not make the energy damage overpowering.
It allows captains to build cruisers with 5 torpedoes forward, which is a Unique Feature. Since the Fed cruisers have such poor turn rates, the Unique Feature can only be exploited when the ship is facing forward (-ish) [I'm aware of the wide-angle].
The 5th torpedo and the 4 beams cannot be easily used at the same time (except in the case of the wide angle, which may need to be revisited). It is possible to use them with some good piloting skills, dipping the nose in towards the target at the end of the beam cycle, but for ships that need to position themselves next to stationary targets it is not going to be a significant contributor (ships cannot turn quick enough at zero speed).
It makes the forward arc of the ship more threatening. Given that beam array broadsides make the sides threatening already, this would by defintion, make the aft arc the most likely target area. Its long been a irritant of mine that the forward arc on a cruiser is one of its weak spots. That goes against everything we know about Star Trek cruisers on film.
It's canon! Federation cruisers in Star Trek have always had torpedo hard-point(s).
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might take me about 15 mins, but I can solo it without dying if im trying hard.
double power insulators and aegis set gearing everything towards shields..
cause sometimes its party time!
Atm, the only setup that can achieve dps rival to an escort is all beams cruisers. However, although the setting has a high dps output, it lacks of a hard punch of torpedo that the escorts enjoy in their alpha strike. The overlap zone is small, similar to the 45 arc from the escorts, so there isn't really any advantage.
Also, beams skills need to be revised because they're weaker than the cannons skills imo. Cannon skills r more firepower focus than the beams'. Also, the global cd of cannon skill is 15s compare to 20s in beam's. Also, target sub cd is a joke - 2min cd.
FAW works fine with one target but when there are many targets, the firepower is diluted. FAW should be focus around an area of the main target not 360 degree. CSV focus all firepower on a cone shape of the weapon firing arc. Similar mechanism should be use in FAW. CRF focus all cannons+turrets on a single target, but BO only use 1 beam.
I personally don't really have any complain about escort or cruiser because I fly all of them.
This.
You can already equip up to 8 launchers.
I always found it amusing that the reasoning for FAW to have its targets so random was due to its rather large firing arc. While an all turret build, with a much wider firing arc, using CSV still only uses the cone AOE for its targets. I would find it more reasonable if FAW would select its targets in the direction of the primary target, but some things you just have to accept and move on.
Did you even read before replying? The OP wasn't about managing the existing 8 weapon hard-points, its about adding an extra dedicated torp slot that would give Fed cruisers a 9th weapon hard-point to off-set their weakness relative to other ships
What you REALLY want is the [Arc] modifier to be brought into general use.
Yes, I read the OP and supplied a reasonable compromise rather than encourage a "make my favored ship class better" thread.
Those always end badly.
Cannons on cruisers are fun but escorts have better use of them.
Well i am mostly a pvp player but my aux2bat fleet k'tinga still makes elite pve trivial, it would be even easier with an Excelsior, fleet assault or galor.
Fed cruisers generally have to be flown defensively in PVP, because that is where they are strong when the rest of the field moves faster than they do
As for the corsair it is a pure healing boat. The tor'kaht looks cool on paper but i still dont see why you would take it over a sturdy escort like the somraw (i played both and the somraw is much more competitive in arenas because the tor'kaht is still a low inertia slow cruiser).
What is true is romulan ships are generally better and more flexible than feds and kdf ones.
This is just nonsense. why people persist in this perpetuating this kind of stuff is beyond me. I suspect it's down to people who accept the opinions of others and parrot them, instead of, you know, actually trying things for themselves.
I've been flying Cruisers and Carriers for most of my play time, so this is coming from personal experience rather than 'what I heard'. They are ALWAYS beside me, NEVER in front.
You could argue that the best way to solve this is to do away with customizable ships as we know them in order to create a balanced Trek-like experience. The system Cryptic uses could actually serve as a good basis for their own original intellectual property but as soon as you see a galaxy class ship flying around shooting disruptors, polaron beams, and deploying chroniton mines then you've failed to present Star Trek.
There is really little you can do outside of that right now aside from attempting to skew gearing by applying faction weapon bonuses to game gear sets but that's not enough in and of itself. I mean we are playing a game where the typical cruiser leaves torpedoes at home because they suck and are unable to shoot them effectively at targets. 8 beam builds for the win aye?
Shields should be there to mitigate energy damage and armor to defeat torpedo damage. With a cruiser firing even 4 beam arrays fully buffed against a forward shield in the short moments of the initial pass, against a set of buffed shields, the front face is unlikely to come down rendering your front torpedo, fully buffed, near useless.
Make torpedo damage ignore shields. Mitigate it with armor and kinetic resist buffs. Make it worthwhile to use torpedo buffing tac consoles. Then the front arc becomes just as dangerous as the sides and maybe rear arcs.
When the Enterprise in shows flies in firing we don't see them blazing away at shields until they see bare hull then fire torps. They fire all the guns at once while launching torps, explosions, brace for impact gets yelled, and crew go flying off bulkheads in spectacular fashion.
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Another thing, I was told (haven't researched it myself yet), that sci ships have a better SF (Shield Factor) than cruisers. That's kind of bunk in my opinion, cruisers should, at the very least, edge out sci ships in this, as typically presented, a cruiser is hard to take down, both shield & hull-wise, compared to sci vessels, in the original shows (And that's counting ALL of the series, not just TOS) & movies. As well, it would compensate for escorts far superior turning radius, and sci vessels subsystem targeting. Either that, or make a cruisers deflector also present a type of shield (in the shows/movies, was called "screens") that would either adapt to the types of damage being used against them, and present a damage debuff to incoming attacks, or be a kind of limited "secondary shield".
Anyway, those are my thoughts, based on the canon Trek, as well as various novels that I have read, adn I think it would rebalance cruisers to make them as nicely unique from the sci ships, escorts, and the other two factions' ships.
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Unless Cryptic plans on downgrading abilities such as fire-at-will, I think that cruisers can already do enough damage to fulfill their primary intended roll, which is a tank or healer.
As for science vessels having better shields, considering how weak their hulls are and the fact that their shields are not that superior to cruisers, I think that is well-balanced.
From my observations, several cruisers spamming fire at will and cross-healing can be incredibly dangerous and nearly impossible to kill in PvP. People who want cruisers to deal damage like escorts need to fly an escort.
If anything needs to be boosted it is science powers, not cruisers.
Cruisers should be the "norm" with heavy hull and shielding.
Escorts should have weaker hulls and shields but be far more devastating with their cannon.
Sci "Ships" should be in WoW.
Since Stafleet cruisers can't mount DC or DHC, and their turnrate is a bit lower compared to other Crusiers, i think giving them a dedicated Torpedo Slot would be appropriate.
In my opinion overall DPS means nothing if you can't kill a target.
As is already said at another thread:
Escorts can mount DC and DHCs.
Science ships get TSSx and Stronger shields.
KDF and most other crusiers also can mount DCs and DHCs.
What do starfleet Crusiers get?
Slightly more Hull Hitpoints, the choice to choose from the lamest BOFF powers?
I am all for giving Cruisers their dedicated Torpedo slot, it is long overdue.
On the other hand, where's the fun for the enemy to kill a cruiser that doesn't pose a threat in the first place?
ONLY if my Escort gets a dedicated Lance slot.
Most don't grasp the proper use of FAW, the tactical skill allows beam arrays to fire at as many targets as possible to its maximum number of targets allowed in a given 10km range. So technically if used correctly you could target a single enemy in front of you with 3 more in the general vicinity of it and it will allow for your beam arrays to fire at all 4 targets simultaneously. The FAW works fine unless it is meant for a single enemy, than it isn't really all to great. However it can help against Borg cubes and gates as a way to eliminate the possibility of a HYTorp from hitting you, while still maintaining constant fire on the cube or gate.
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Yes, because .. escorts need even more firepower.. i understand.:rolleyes:
Giving Crusiers a Torpedo slot wouldn't magically turn them into one hit killers and they certainly wouldn't start to compete with Escorts burst power. But heck it would make Starfleet Cruisers at least a bit more of a threat.
FAW is a nice power if you want to raise your overall DPS, which helps you nothing at all. In my experience you have to be able to hit a certain area, but not every enemy ship in weapon range. For example a crusier cannot pose a threat in Ker'rat when getting the attention of every borg ship around.
For me FAW is almost useless.
Even if Cryptics devs would suddenly turn their minds and try to make Cruisers a bit more on par with escorts (which i think they will never do, they just :DL O V E:D escorts), adding a special Torpedo slot would keep Starfleet Cruisers still behind KDF cruisers and escorts of course.
But the problem with Starfleet cruisers (their vast passivity) wouldn't be so overwhelming anymore.
Just my 2 cents.
As i said the problem with FAW is you cannot choose whom to fight. Of course it is a welcome way to fight mines and fighters to a certain degree, but most crusiers (especially older ones which don't get much love from Cryptic) don't have much Tac BOFF slots to afford such luxury in the first place.
I think this topic shouldn't die, Crusiers get more and more pushed to the background while Carriers and Escorts become more and more OP even more Starfleet Cruiser who have the least offensive potential of all ships IMO.
Giving starfleet Cruisers a extra torpedo slot would make them much more attractive and Cryptics could sell more of them.
Let's be honest, Starfleet Cruiser in STO are the most boring ships to fly. While KDF and Romulan ships get DHCs starfleet crusiers (who should be on par with them) get just a little more Hull hitpoints.
If it was up to me, KDF and Romulan ships would get a Hull Hitpoint buff and Starfleet Crusiers would get a Broadside Beam Weapon, capable of doing DHC like damage or at least a torpedo slot.
The first part is...extreme. However, the reference to the shows/movies does point out a mechanic that's missing from the game. Projectile bleed damage increases and projectile resistance decreases as shields are reduced.
Whether there's 15000 shield or 15 shield left, the game still imposes the 75% kinetic resist and the 5/10% bleed. It should scale, imho.
Course, that won't do anything about the OP's concerns about Cruisers - but not everybody shares the OP's view of Cruisers...
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While I get that more pet spam is not necessarily a good thing, it seems to me that having shuttlecraft/fighters could potentially balance out cruisers better than anything else (that Cryptic has not said 'no' to already).
The highly mobile units might at least partially compensate for the cruiser's manuverability issues as well as provide a little extra firepower to burn through shields and hull. The right small ship in a hangar slot could also be very effective in neutralizing some of the escorts' advantages.
I see the OP's point, that cruisers could use a little more punch in a way that wouldn't necessarily make them overpowered. I think an extra torp is a little too much punch, in my opinion. People would be likely to put an extra Transphasic in there... I know I would try it. For that matter, fighters might be too much of an advantage too.
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