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  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    marc8219 wrote: »
    interesting thanks, so DHC do not benefit nearly as much from overcap as beams. This could be why all the highest dps PVE builds are now Beam FAW spam using a2b and eptw and other stuff to overcap rather then DHC escorts doing most dps anymore.

    FAW was broken. Well, not the earlier broken - but a new broken. Hrmmm, where was that post? Let me find it...
    Progress!

    With the assistance of one of our Programmers, we think we've uncovered the issue at hand.

    Suffice it to say, Enhancements from weapons (like [Acc] mods, but also includes [Dmg], [CrtD], etc, as well as Procs) aren't being properly inherited by all powers in all circumstances. I'm hesitant to post more details than that until we have a working fix, which is unlikely to happen internally until next week at the earliest.

    So, stay tuned! I'll let you all know what's going on, once we have made more progress internally.

    So with that fixed, FAW saw an increase in damage - because, well - the weapon mods weren't being accounted for previously...

    Add in the boost the EPtX abilities received with LoR and who can slot the higher EPtW...

    Don't forget the broken Disruptor procs (wonder when that fix will hit Holo) which have 80 chances to proc in a 15s period with a 4x DHC/2 Turret/KCB build vs. 84 chances in a 7 Array/KCB build...not much, but still - don't forget the FAW part which increases those chances.

    And yes, the overcap making up some of the damage lost to the higher damage DHCs...

    ...but there were folks doing a bunch of that before LoR, before the FAW fix, etc, etc, etc.

    There are some great threads out there for folks looking to increase their DPS.
  • chi1701dchi1701d Member Posts: 174 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    Hrmmm, can do a quick test...

    Base
    126/100
    87/65
    58/20
    36/15

    +EPtW1 & Manifold
    151/100
    97/65
    68/20
    46/15

    +EPtS1 & Manifold
    161/100
    122/65
    68/20
    46/15

    +5 Stack MACO Shields
    171/100
    132/65
    78/20
    56/20

    +EPS Power Transfer (normally change custom preset)
    205/100
    165/65
    112/20
    89/15

    4x Rom Plasma Array (-10 drain)
    1x Experimental (folks still debate if there is actually drain or not)
    1x Cutting Beam (-8 drain)

    All are on a 4/5 cycle and set for autofire.

    The most likely Weapon Power would be the 161/100...high defense makes MACO stacks unlikely in PvE.

    So dropping Weapon Power down to x/75, would give me 136/75.

    If there is a 135 cap, then there should be no noticeable difference in DPS nor any noticeable change in how Weapon Power visually fluctuates.

    I'll pull my torps...do 3x parses of SB234 @~161/100 and 3x @~136/75 with the weapons noted above. I'll just look at the Starbase 234 encounter - no offensive buffs outside of EPtW1 will be used (not even TT - don't need the shield distribution for this scenario). Will circle at 8-10km range.

    @~161/100
    1 - 1.2m base, 622.8k done, 2851.8 EncDPS (3:35 dur)
    2 - 1.3m base, 668.6k done, 2959.6 EncDPS (3:40 dur)
    3 - 1.2m base, 632.7k done, 2981.7 EncDPS (3:31 dur)

    Avg EncDPS: 2931.0

    Can say before I pull up the numbers, though - the visual fluctuation was much greater.

    @~136/75
    1 - 1.0m base, 537.3k done, 2513.3 EncDPS (3:30 dur)
    2 - 1.1m base, 568.8k done, 2537.9 EncDPS (3:39 dur)
    3 - 0.9m base, 471.6k done, 2643.3 EncDPS (3:08 dur) - shorter duration because of a pesky Prometheus whose Vectors didn't despawn

    Avg EncDPS: 2564.8

    An average of ~14.3% more DPS @~161 vs @~136...and again, that was without any offensive buffs outside of EPtW1. The difference would have been more...and note, that difference was just based on drain buffer - there's no direct DPS gain by going over 125 - it's just drain buffer.

    ...so I'd say that 135 is not a cap.

    What is this manifold btw?

    Did you calculate the 10% damage buff from using emptw into the calculations?
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    chi1701d wrote: »
    What is this manifold btw?

    Did you calculate the 10% damage buff from using emptw into the calculations?

    EPS Manifold Efficiency, Engineer Trait.

    EPtW1 results in +25 Wep, +10 Shield, +10 Engine, +10 Aux
    EPtS1 results in +10 Wep, +25 Shield, +10 Engine, +10 Aux

    DCE'd, there's ~100% uptime of +35 Wep, +35 Shield, +10 Engine, +10 Aux

    The damage numbers at the bottom? They were parses, not calculations.
  • cerealplayercerealplayer Member Posts: 214 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    @~161/100
    1 - 708,025 base damage - 384,417 done - 2,146.38 EncDPS (2:59 Dur) - 9% Crit
    2 - 657,125 base damage - 355,881 done - 2,249.56 EncDPS (2:38 Dur) - 13% Crit
    3 - 723,601 base damage - 392,660 done - 2,298.95 EncDPS (2:50 Dur) - 11% Crit

    Avg EncDPS: 2,231.63


    @~151/90
    1 - 806,964 base damage - 438,242 done - 2,274.22 EncDPS (3:12 Dur) - 11% Crit
    2 -
    3 -

    Avg EncDPS:


    @~136/75
    1 - 740,153 base damage - 401,260 done - 2,192.68 EncDPS (3:03 Dur) - 9% Crit
    2 -
    3 -

    Avg EncDPS:


    @~126/65
    1 - 782,971 base damage - 425,447 done - 2,304.70 EncDPS (3:04 Dur) - 10% Crit



    Thank you very much for this! This is great work.

    I'm a bit dismayed though. My own, very informal testing, had me convinced that it was worth overcapping my escort (4 DHCs, 2 turrets, 1 cutting beam).

    I will now have to go back and take a sharper look at that. Why the disagreement in results? Could it be the non-DHCs? An interesting constant in both beam and beam builds is the kinetic cutting beam (which almost everyone uses). Does it behave like a beam, for purposes of drain? What about turrets?

    I'll need to dig up my parses, but from what I recall, I got about 20-30% increase in dps from no overcapping (about 125/65 (ish)), to overcapping as best I could TRIBBLE/125, can't recall the TRIBBLE though).

    Any way, kudos man. This is very useful. Thanks!
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    Why the disagreement in results? Could it be the non-DHCs? An interesting constant in both beam and beam builds is the kinetic cutting beam (which almost everyone uses). Does it behave like a beam, for purposes of drain? What about turrets?

    Yeah, even though the KCB is -8 drain, it has a 4/5 cycle for firing. That mix of turret/beam mechanics. As for why my own results didn't show that possible 135, like I speculated - it was only 4x DHCs - was missing 3-4 aft weapons, since I didn't run it with turrets.

    Also, have to keep in mind that the combination of the faster regain on power drained coupled with the power coming from the DCE'd EPtW1/EPtS1 with the Manifold trait could have zoomed in returning power while the beams lagged in such a manner that it still showed a loss.

    I'm tempted to test it on a Tac - would have to look at what other ships they're sporting (can't remember who I got the Chel on, Amby, Kam, etc, etc, etc). Course, could always pick up a MU Star for ~60-70k...lol.
  • dahminusdahminus Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    I shall attempt some throw around math...Under a 15 second window

    Kinetic cutting beam 378+(378x150%)= 945 dpv(Only if the KCB is affected by weapon power)
    Mk XII beam array 220+(220x150%)= 550 dpv
    Mk XII dual beam bank 287+(287x150%)= 717 dpv
    Mk XII dual heavy cannon 384+(384x150%)= 960 dpv
    MK XII turret 99+(99 x150%)= 247dpv

    KCB is 4 shots every 5 secs or 12/15 given the 15 sec window
    Array is 4 shots every 5 secs or 12/15 given the 15 sec window
    Bank is 4 shots every 5 secs or 12/15 given the 15 sec window
    turret is 4 shots every 3 secs or 20/15 given the 15 sec window
    DHC is 2 shots every 3 secs or 10/15 given the 15 sec window

    All calcs are under the assumption that a cruiser can use beams and cannons

    Beam arrays first with a KCB
    7x550=3850x12=46200
    945x12=11340
    46200+11340 dpv= 57540 damage per 15secs

    Beam banks dont overlap arcs so a mix of turrets and KCB is required
    4x717=2868x12=34416
    3x247=741x20=14820
    945x12=11340
    34416+14820+11340= 60576damage per 15secs

    Dhc will have the same aft as beam banks but the cannons will eat into weapon power
    And DHC will require a diminished amount after each firing which is -12 weapon power

    First cannon 384+(384x150%)=960x10=9600
    Second cannon 384+(384x138%)=913x10=9130
    Third cannon 384+(384x126%)=867x10=8670
    Fourth cannon 384+(384x114%)=821x10=8210
    9600+9130+8670+8210=35610

    Now turrets and the KCB will do less damage due to weapon power being less...but assuming the turrets/kcb fire at 125
    3x247=741x20=14820
    945x12=11340
    35610+14820+11340=61770 damage in 15 secs

    DHC builds are looking kinda meh with that beam overcap shenanagin

    Someone else do the math and make DHC look the way they should....please?

    Threw in a "what if kcb/turrets fired at 125? in the cannon build"
    Chive on and prosper, eh?

    My PvE/PvP hybrid skill tree
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    Based over concerns that EPS Manifold Efficiency may have been affecting the results, I'm going to rerun the beam tests on a Tac in an Ambassador. 8x Common Phaser Beam Array Mk X and 3x Common Phaser Relay Mk X. She'll be cycling quad EPt abilities (2x EPtW2 and 2x EPtS1). Again, no other offensive buffs will be used. Circling at 8.5-9.5km, trying to keep as close to 9km as possible (an orbit feature would be nifty, lol).

    Base Weapon Power is 117/100.
    EPtW2 Weapon Power is (147.9)/100.

    So I'll run the tests at 117/100 (147.9), 107/90 (137.9), 97/80 (127.9).

    Some base DPV numbers first for the Common Phaser Beam Array Mk X.

    @117 - 853.5
    @147.9 - 1027.8
    @107 - 780.9
    @137.9 - 1027.8
    @97 - 708.3
    @127.9 - 1027.8

    As you can see, when the power is above 125 - it is only the EPtW2 buff that modifies damage - all three values above 125 are the same. Going over 125 does not directly improve damage. These tests are just to see if overcap drain buffer can help offset the damage that would have been lost to weapon drain.

    I'm curious to see if these tests reflect what was seen in previous tests. I honestly do not have a preference either way, as I'm not arguing for or against something - just trying to see how it actually works. Sure, I believe that it will show the same - but that's only because I did tests before the EPS Manifold Efficiency trait existed which showed the same. But let's see...

    @147.9
    1 - 853,791 base damage - 477,986 done - 2,378.04 EncDPS - 4% Crit (3:21 dur)
    2 - 836,110 base damage - 468,025 done - 2,372.15 EncDPS - 4% Crit (3:17 dur)
    3 - 919,391 base damage - 513,652 done - 2,339.03 EncDPS - 4% Crit (3:39 dur)

    Avg EncDPS: 2,363.07



    @137.9
    1 - 896,066 base damage - 503,500 done - 2,250.78 EncDPS - 3% Crit (3:43 dur)
    2 - 864,058 base damage - 485,548 done - 2,272.10 EncDPS - 4% Crit (3:33 dur)
    3 - 839,143 base damage - 471,185 done - 2,206.96 EncDPS - 3% Crit (3:33 dur)

    Avg EncDPS: 2243.28


    And it does reflect a change in damage - with less buffer, more of the damage lost to drain is actually lost.

    @127.9
    1 - 742,708 base damage - 417,018 done - 1,924.40 EncDPS - 4% Crit (3:36 dur)
    2 - 646,484 base damage - 363,038 done - 1,961.31 EncDPS - 4% Crit (3:05 dur)
    3 - 765,090 base damage - 428,977 done - 2,024.43 EncDPS - 4% Crti (3:31 dur)

    Avg EncDPS: 1970.05


    Ouch, painful...but yeah, next to no overcap...you're basically eating the whole loss.

    One can calculate what the DPS would be with 0 drain based on the numbers earlier.

    1027.8 DPV (single turret) 8222.4 DPV for 8x...
    Convert to DPS (4/5 cycle) and you get 6577.92 DPS...
    Can see that the Starbase is resisting ~44% damage...
    Apply that resistance to get a rough idea of what the 0 drain DPS would be...
    ...and you'd be looking at 3683.64 DPS or so (very rough numbers).

    So @147.9, you're still losing ~36% of your DPS.
    While @137.9, you're still losing ~39% of your DPS.
    And @127.9, you're losing ~46.5% of your DPS.

    Keep in mind, the "you" and "you're" is referring to this particular character and the build she was running/abilities she was using (EPtW2 being the only offensive buff). It's going to vary depending on what you're (actual you) doing...
  • sohtohsohtoh Member Posts: 620 Arc User
    edited July 2013
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    I know there are those who say you don't really need Marion on an A2B build (getting so much injected power and all); but considering that DEM itself, of course, also benefits from the 'standard' 3x purple tech doffs to shorten boff ability recharge time, DEM will be active most of the time: and thus so will Marion!

    When utilizing an A2B build DEM can be used every 45 seconds. DEM is active for 30 seconds (with 15 seconds of downtime). The proc from the Marion DOff lasts only 8 seconds (with 37 seconds of downtime), that is unless Marion is bugged and providing the proc for longer than his description states.

    That being said... the Marion DOff has the same uptime rate as Nadion Inversion and makes it just as valuable.
    "I'm not big on telepaths myself. I'm not big on guns either. But if everyone else has them, I want to make sure I can get my hands on the biggest one I can."
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