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Dual Cannons for science + cruisers
questerius
Member Posts: 8,478 Arc User
In the current situation escorts can equip beams, single cannons, Dual cannons and Dual heavy cannons.
Science + cruisers and equip single cannons and beam arrays.
There has been a lot of talk about the sheer difference in potential damage, in particular burst damage, between the classes.
There is also a consensus the dual cannons are inferior to dual heavy cannons due to the innate critical damage of the latter.
In addition the target subsystem abilities from science vessels do not work with cannons which results in beam builds for science vessels simply because they cannot take advantage of cannons and their higher proc chance.
To introduce more variety in builds i propose the following:
Allow Dual Cannons (Dual heavy stay Escort only) to be fitted on cruisers and science vessels. There are some science vessels and cruisers which are nimble enough to take advantage of DC.
In addition to that a change to the target subsystem to work with cannons as well as beams.
This would add more variety in builds and reanimate the underused dual cannons.
P.S. I know certain event and C-store science vessels and cruisers already can equip DC and DHC, but i am proposing this change for the "run of the mill" vessels.
Science + cruisers and equip single cannons and beam arrays.
There has been a lot of talk about the sheer difference in potential damage, in particular burst damage, between the classes.
There is also a consensus the dual cannons are inferior to dual heavy cannons due to the innate critical damage of the latter.
In addition the target subsystem abilities from science vessels do not work with cannons which results in beam builds for science vessels simply because they cannot take advantage of cannons and their higher proc chance.
To introduce more variety in builds i propose the following:
Allow Dual Cannons (Dual heavy stay Escort only) to be fitted on cruisers and science vessels. There are some science vessels and cruisers which are nimble enough to take advantage of DC.
In addition to that a change to the target subsystem to work with cannons as well as beams.
This would add more variety in builds and reanimate the underused dual cannons.
P.S. I know certain event and C-store science vessels and cruisers already can equip DC and DHC, but i am proposing this change for the "run of the mill" vessels.
This program, though reasonably normal at times, seems to have a strong affinity to classes belonging to the Cat 2.0 program. Questerius 2.7 will break down on occasion, resulting in garbage and nonsense messages whenever it occurs. Usually a hard reboot or pulling the plug solves the problem when that happens.
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If you want a Cannon Boat..Get an Escort. I know plenty of people running Science and Cruisers that do more then enough DPS to satisfy their needs. We DO NOT need people mucking up the balance even more then it already is. Cruisers built properly can withstand a hell of a beating from Escorts and swat them down like flies....Science vessels can effectively keep Escorts and Cruisers at a distance while continuosly healing....Add on Dual Cannons (regardless of the difference in DPS between the DCs and DHCs) and youre looking at shutting out Escorts entirely from their own GAME...DPS.
If this was to happen...People would start asking.
Why fly Escorts when you have Tanks with slightly less DPS and all the survivability?
Why fly Escorts when you have Science with slightly less DPS and all the Healing?
Escorts can still tank and hit hard with the DHC.
Right now cruisers and science vessels are severely limited in their options and we have a weapon type (dual cannons) which is rarely used due to being over classed by DHC.
This suggestion would correct this. If a science vessel goes DC then it sacrifices part of it's healing abilities due to different power distribution.
Same thing for cruisers and in addition the majority of cruisers simply do not have the maneuverability to use DC effectively.
What the proposal does however is give people an option to use builds other than the same old beam boats.
This is a Star Trek game we're playing here and Starfleet cruisers use beams. I shouldn't explain any further, not should I elaborate how giving cannons sybsystem targeting would make escorts even more deadly than they already are.
Even though you actually touched upon it unwittingly in a post you yourself made.
Simply put, that would work to the detriment of the player in that situation. Why would you be in a science vessel and hinder your ability to lay out heals and crowd control powers, simply for the sake of having dual cannons? For "variety"? The ships don't even have the inherent bonuses to their weapons power that Escorts do, so the drain from the cannons would be significant. You wouldn't have enough power in either Weapons or Aux, so you'd be terrible at both attacking and managing your Science-based abilities.
Limitations like this are put in so that players don't accidentally hinder themselves through their own lack of understanding of their own capabilities and weaknesses. It's just the way games are made.
We already have plenty of variety going on. Captains aren't as shoehorned into sticking to their matching ship types as they were at the beginning of the game, when you actually had to put points into actual Ship skills (Escort, Cruiser, Long-Range Science Vessel, Fleet/Patrol Escort, et cetra).
If you wanna be a Science Captain in an Escort, you can totally do that, and even pick your skills accordingly, and vice versa.
There's nothing wrong with the current setup of how the ships work. Escorts are combat vessels, Cruisers are defender vessels, and Science Ships are support vessels. Yes, it's predictable. But it's not broken. There's no "correction" needed.
Fun Compromise: Make regular, non-Heavy versions of the Aux cannons for use on all Sci Ships. Maybe even cruisers, too. Leave the regular Dual-Heavy Aux Cannons for the Vesta.
cause sometimes its party time!
This would also open their future ship options beyond just bridge officer arrangements. (broadsiders, ships with aft blind-spots but are well armed front and sides, etc.)
Additionally, have weapon slot-based restrictions instead of ship-based restrictions. Both specific(Cannon slots, Beam Slots, Torpedo Slots, Mine Slots), hybrid(Energy Weapon Slots, Projectile Slots), and all-purpose(Omni-Slots). I realize the initial complaints for it, but I think the variety would help the game in the long run(and encourage people to experiment with/use builds other than Quad DHC/dual turret). It would give each ship more of an.. identity(That defiant? You know it's probably loaded with cannons. However, that Akira/HEC has at least one beam and torp on it.).
Great specialization options > allowing people to equip everything on every ship
I'm well aware of the classic roles of escorts, science and cruisers and i fly several vessels filling those roles.
At the same time one can see ship types which have the potential for other roles yet don't have that option due to limitations in weapons.
Also at the same time we have a weapon type which is almost never-used due to being over classed by DHC.
This proposal is aimed to let vessels take on tasks other than their classic roles and to reanimate a weapon type.
Will cruisers or science vessels surpass escorts in their specialty burst-damage? No, but they will have the option to do burst damage which is almost nonexistent at the moment.
As for the aux-cannons, i don't see that happening because those are a Vesta special.
Attaching DCs does not get rid of the Boff Stations on Science and Cruisers that assist in its ability to Heal/Survive....
No, but with DC it is likely that more power is shifted towards weapons instead of aux.
Lower Aux values hinders healing abilities.
Like it was stated before..it would flatline them. This idea has been proposed time and time again over the last three years....Its not going to happen. And if you dont like the 'meh' choices you already have. I dont know what to tell you. While theres a lot of this game that isnt very Star Trek. There are still qualities about it that the Devs and CBS are trying to stay true to. And one of them is the fact that no one wants to see Janeway in Voyager blowing everyone away with DCs.
Funny you mention Janeway and cannons. Remember the Isokinetic Cannon Link.
This only shows that cannons on science vessels are not out of the question.
STO plays roughly 20 years after the return of Voyager and in the aftermath of the Dominion war it is not only plausible, but likely that Starfleet started wielding more combat oriented vessels and this includes arming them with cannons.
Plausible doesnt mean it has happened. If you remember your Lore behind the last 20 years. The Feds dismissed the Borg Task Force after they thought the threat wasnt there anymore..Thats why 7 of 9 isnt around anymore...Only in the last year (current timeline) has things become more violent.
Youre also trying to use a specific event/circumstances (Voyager being lost and alone across the Galaxy) to give your arguement weight. Which it does not when the Federation has devoted time, resources and manpower to plan, develop and launch combat specific starships (Escorts) to carry the burden of the warfighting. Starships like the Discovery Class and Galaxy Class still have a serious kick to their firepower but they still have to fullfill the purpose of StarFleet and their individual ship roles..To Explore.
For the sake of balance and not giving the Players every last request they make. This will never happen.
With the Klingons, remnants of the tal Shiar, Breen and True Way there were enough threats to warrant combat-oriented vessels.
Just because they also resumed exploration does not mean they stepped away from the lessons learned in the past.
Either way my proposal gives cruisers and science more flexibility and potential for burst damage and solves the issue of the barely used Dual cannons at the same time.
On a non-related note: I would love to see an Isokinetic cannon either as standalone weapon or console.
a well build science ship can literally double the effectiveness of the whole team.
cruisers are too slow for DHC and do not have enough tactical slots to utilize them well. best example is galaxy-x. get her and tell how awesome she is.
klingon battlecruisers and romulan warbirds are completely another breeds. they have in-cloak turn rate buff.
One note: we're talking about Dual Cannons, not DHC to be allowed on science and cruisers. Just to avoid confusion.
I am not disputing that many cruisers and science vessels lack the maneuverability to make use of Dual cannons and that they are most likely to shine in their intended roles.
However science and cruisers should not be artificially confined to their classic roles due to lack in weapon options and matching abilities.
As for the Galaxy-X, that's a dreadnought and not technically a cruiser and as an owner i can attest that a DC/DHC build is not the most viable one. Personally is use a SC build for my Galaxy-X, but that is a debate for another time.
and here we go the Escort crybabies whining that a proposal is made that equalizes the game. you escort whiners already cried enough that sci abilities are a joke. and you whine and stomp your feet because you can't oneshot a cruiser that's properly built. tell ya what. how about we take your escorts and make them the true glass cannons they should be, one ens engineering and one ens sci slot each, because the way the game is now, an escort can tank as well as a cruiser, and to double the DPS. exactly how is that "balanced"?
Escorts can already fulfill almost every role in the game (tanking, healing and debuffing), but cruisers and science vessels are confined to their classic roles due to lacking weapon options.
Add the rare usage of Dual Cannons and put two and two together.
Escorts lose nothing while cruisers and science get to play with other options than their classic role.
Sci Ships have the turn rate, but they missing the BOff abilities to have high DPS with DCs.
Its senseless to equip weapons which you cannot use appropriatly.
Science vessels only need a Lt boff slot with rapid fire to make excellent use of the DC.
Only the basic Nova and Oberth lack a Lt Boff or above and they still have access to tactical team.
Are escorts with more tactical Boff slots better suited? Yes, but this does not mean science vessels and cruisers are unsuited for usage of DC.
Or, if you can't possibly bear the thought of aligning with the KDF, then create a Romulan puppet and use a Romulan battlecruiser. Romulan faction essentially removes any weaknesses the Federation ship line might've had (cloakers and battlecruisers).
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
How about science? Believe it or not, but there are those who loath Klingon gameplay.
Even if one was to roll (another) klingon this does not solve the problem which exist: under usage of DC & lack of options for federation science and cruisers.
Federation science and cruisers are confined to their classic roles by artificially denying them access to certain weapon types (Dual cannons for those wondering).
Klingon vessels have flexibility by use of their cloak and universal Boff slots. I'm not saying that the KDF is on par with the federation in terms of vessels etc, but this does not mean that federation science and cruisers should be denied options.
QFT
Fly Romulan. They have cannons and battlecloaks on everything.
This is why we have factions. To provide variety.
Still circumventing the issues at hand. I wish these <....> with their "roll this or that" would crawl back under the rock they came from.
Read the OP and following posts explaining the suggestion. It has already been explained and that kind of posts is just trolling. That or a sign of lack of reading comprehension.
Its not an issue. Its something you want and you cant have. He's giving you an option that was created by the Devs that gives you what youre asking for without ripping apart established balance and the things the Devs and Community has explicitly asked to not happen.