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Balance Changes: Addressing the real issues.
originpi
Member Posts: 0 Arc User
I am not the one who came up with this. It was a fleet mate or a post buried in these forums somewhere, but I thought I'd share the suggestion and see if people agree and see if it might encourage some discussion on the real balance issues. Currently everyone seems to think the way to fix weak ships it to make them more escort-like, because Tac bridge officer powers are incredibly powerful and have a sort of monopoly on every aspect of the game.
Tac has arguably some of the best defensive(APD, APO, TT), offensive(All of them), control(TS, DPX, BT:E) and debuff(APB, BT:X) powers in the game.
I don't need to go on. The suggestion is a way to increase the competitiveness and fun of playing science vessels and cruisers, that have disadvantages (like turn rate, no cannons, and less guns on sci ships) even before you consider their bridge officer abilities. Make the higher level bridge officer abilities of engineering and science more worthwhile by buffing them based on the level of the ability.
The basic proposal:
Keep all ensign and lieutenant sci/engineering powers as they are now (or nerf them slightly.)
Buff the effectiveness of LtC. science and engineering abilities significantly.
Buff the effectiveness of Cdr. science and engineering abilities greatly.
Think of it: Make emerg. power to xx III two and a half times more powerful than I, like it is with Attack Patterns (Beta I is -20, Beta III is -50) and more people will want access to those great abilities.
Another couple changes to encourage balance:
*Make DOff abilities that activate on or improve BOff powers scale with the level of the power used. (For example: M.F.Dulmar's ability should last 15 seconds when used with DEM III vs 8 Seconds with DEM I. ) Doff abilities that make eng/sci abilities more useful and cool are a wasted attempt at balance if they work just as well on the powers escorts have access to. (This wouldn't be specific to sci/eng either. Maybe that new +acc doff would be crazy good when you use Tac Team III which makes those abilities a more viable option)
*Make Sensor Scan a powerful debuff (on par with beta 2 perhaps) that isn't dependant on aux power. Science is the only captain class that has abilities that are nerfed if they aren't in a science ship. Encourage more cross-class/ship combinations for fun's sake.
*For that matter, give the Photonic Fleet ships (or make a Doff that gives the photonic fleets ships) +(Lots) threat. They don't do a lot of damage, so make them soak up shots.
EDIT: Another good idea added by a fleet mate in discussions:
*Make all heals scale based on the base hull strength (for hull heals) and/or shield modifier (for shield heals) of the target. So that Wells class Science Vessel should get 1.45x the amount of shield heals of a stock cruiser.
Also add a passive bonus to hull resist (and possibly shields too) based on base hull strength (and shield modifier). Escorts still have highest defense rating (and thus get missed more often), but should need support to be super tanky like they can be currently.
Tac has arguably some of the best defensive(APD, APO, TT), offensive(All of them), control(TS, DPX, BT:E) and debuff(APB, BT:X) powers in the game.
I don't need to go on. The suggestion is a way to increase the competitiveness and fun of playing science vessels and cruisers, that have disadvantages (like turn rate, no cannons, and less guns on sci ships) even before you consider their bridge officer abilities. Make the higher level bridge officer abilities of engineering and science more worthwhile by buffing them based on the level of the ability.
The basic proposal:
Keep all ensign and lieutenant sci/engineering powers as they are now (or nerf them slightly.)
Buff the effectiveness of LtC. science and engineering abilities significantly.
Buff the effectiveness of Cdr. science and engineering abilities greatly.
Think of it: Make emerg. power to xx III two and a half times more powerful than I, like it is with Attack Patterns (Beta I is -20, Beta III is -50) and more people will want access to those great abilities.
Another couple changes to encourage balance:
*Make DOff abilities that activate on or improve BOff powers scale with the level of the power used. (For example: M.F.Dulmar's ability should last 15 seconds when used with DEM III vs 8 Seconds with DEM I. ) Doff abilities that make eng/sci abilities more useful and cool are a wasted attempt at balance if they work just as well on the powers escorts have access to. (This wouldn't be specific to sci/eng either. Maybe that new +acc doff would be crazy good when you use Tac Team III which makes those abilities a more viable option)
*Make Sensor Scan a powerful debuff (on par with beta 2 perhaps) that isn't dependant on aux power. Science is the only captain class that has abilities that are nerfed if they aren't in a science ship. Encourage more cross-class/ship combinations for fun's sake.
*For that matter, give the Photonic Fleet ships (or make a Doff that gives the photonic fleets ships) +(Lots) threat. They don't do a lot of damage, so make them soak up shots.
EDIT: Another good idea added by a fleet mate in discussions:
*Make all heals scale based on the base hull strength (for hull heals) and/or shield modifier (for shield heals) of the target. So that Wells class Science Vessel should get 1.45x the amount of shield heals of a stock cruiser.
Also add a passive bonus to hull resist (and possibly shields too) based on base hull strength (and shield modifier). Escorts still have highest defense rating (and thus get missed more often), but should need support to be super tanky like they can be currently.
Post edited by originpi on
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That is all well and good but then we would see "tac/sci ships online" because tac captain skills buff science boff skills, eng skills have the same problem
I honestly don't think that would be a problem. Escorts still have so much going for them. Also, I did suggest some things that would improve sci captain powers and eng ones too.
Tac captain skills buff the damage of sci/eng abilities only. So yeah, if you want to be a guy who kills people with gravity wells or feedback pulse or whatever, you SHOULD be a tac in a sci ship. Other people prefer killing with cannons.
If you still really have a problem with this, maybe the damage buff on the powers could be a little less significant than the general utility buff (so Grav Well III can hold things even with EPT:Engines, Warp Plasma III stops people more effectively, heals are more effective, etc.)
I think that would be kinda neat actually. Maybe change some sci/eng captain powers to buff all Boff powers in a different way. So if you want to kill people, play a tac captain, and your choice of ships helps decide HOW you kill people. While Science captains would get bonuses to all the buff/debuffs and control on Tac, Engineering and Science boff abilities.
Though I do like how picking a character class changes the primary use of the power, thats kinda neat.
Agreed, I confess I pulled that number off the top of my head accounting for current values, I'd love to know what it did back in the day, still thats getting off the primary topic. I like your ideas and I think the devs should go through every ship, skill, weapon and related mechanics in a complete and considered careful balance pass and then re-adjust NPCs to give them more skills and a better AI to account for these changes to challenge players, afterall, a game without challenge is no fun.
Heh, fantasising aside, looks good to me
Lose that bit but keep Tac Team's other benefits as they are. Introduce a new Eng skill called Reinforce Shield Facing... and that's all it does. Doesn't sound like much, but put this alongside other lvl1 eng skills and its appeal is pretty good. Cruisers with 3 lvl 1 engineer slots now have another option than EptX.
Tac Team is still important (remove boarding parties, increase weapon power, etc.) but Escorts with 3 lvl 1 Tac slots are now not nearly so invincible shield wise. A little more glass to the cannon.
I like the idea of Eng/Sci skills which have lvl 1 versions being increased to the same degree as Tac Skills for survivability/CC/Healing/Etc... another (probably unpopular) option is to reduce the higher lvl tac skills to the same degree as for Eng/Sci.
Jo Cox 22.6.1974 - 16.6.2016
The rest are pretty solid. The doff thing makes perfect sense. I'd go with the Sensor Scan buff. The Photonic Fleet thing is fine, not really the way I use them (I think of them mainly as a damage buff), and I'm not sure it wasn't already added, but I don't have much objection. The basing heals on hull strength thing has come up a number of times before, seems perfectly valid to me.
I think I would make such an ability lvl 1 in all professions so that those escorts and sci ships aren't then wasting 3 facings but I would remove hold immunity from Attack pattern Omega as that is a major balance offender removing the escort's main weakness at no cost, remove that alone and escorts have a major weakness and have to lose a heal to plug the hole opening up another weakness.
Such a method also makes all cannon defiants and the like still viable without wasting slots but other than those minor points, I agree with your post
R.I.P
But it is a sign of imbalance when the difference between low and high lvl tac skills is so much more pronounced than, for example, engineering skills.
Attack Pattern Beta 3 is Two and one half (2.5x) times better than Beta 1.
Emergency Power to X 3 is only two thirds (1.66x) of a time more powerful than Emergency Power to X 1
So, the powers exclusive to escorts are much better than their counterparts available to everyone else, but the cruiser exclusive powers are only somewhat better than the ones escorts can get. (Add in the fact there is a cap on the benefits you can get from ETPX, while Beta stacks!)
Protonic Kool-Aid Down The Drain Cruiser
Immortal BOff Skills combo for Ground
You arguing apples to oranges. Not the same powers, same carrer choice or even the same mechanics apply to both tactical and engineering powers.
R.I.P
Not to mention the magnitude of the derived stats aren't anywhere near as dichotomous as is being claimed.
In fact, this thread is possibly the best way to fix the balance issues without massive overhauls to every ship's stats.
First Mr.Dulmur effectively gives free access to what was a engineering exclusive (and near useless power unless your using a full deck of beam arrays) without giving something in return to engineers.
http://sto.gamepedia.com/Ability:_Nadion_Inversion
Second, Giving a bonus to accuracy to tactical team would primary benefit ship types that have a heavy escort theme. Wasn't the stated goal to bring other ships up to their level?
I agree with the OP however one of the things they could do is cutoff those bonuses from the TACT buffs from affecting certain sci/eng skills.
They need to make sci skills exotic anyway too much kinetic is bad.
But he's right they don't scale properly on the other two classes, they need serious buffs and the recent buff to EPtX was a great start they just needed to go further with it.
They also need to redo the bonuses on the ships, because klingons and feds are at a clear disadvantage right now with the plasma skills of the Rom ships, this was nothing like the IP and makes ROMS OP in a big way. Right now on the Fed side a sci is a sci is a sci, none of them other then the Vesta really have much in the way of anything that sets them apart from the rest.
I'm all for the Roms keeping their ship skills but surely they can make the Fed and Klingon ships have powers and bonuses of their own, for example the Fed ships with the sensor net should absolutely accelerate the sensor analysis bonuses by ALOT that way the buff can stack much faster just by having that ship. Ships like the Intrepid should have a higher defense than most, just look at everything the Voyager crew survived in the series.
Just two small examples.
I agree that the OP has the right idea regarding that which they have posted about, I simply pointed out an aspect they apparently overlooked and stated the outcome due to said aspect.
That being said though, the general premise is pretty much hitting the nail on the head.
For space, there are:
22 Ensign abilities
42 Lieutenant abilities
48 Lieutenant Commander abilities
6 T2 Commander abilities
23 T3 Commander abilities
On average, each of those should provide a comparable benefit to other abilities at their rank (and tier for the Commander abilities).
All 22 Ensign abilities, regardless of whether they are Eng, Sci, or Tac - should be balanced. Lt, LCdr, T2 Cmdr, T3 Cmdr...each rank...should be balanced.
It's not just a case of Tac vs. Eng vs. Sci. Even within Tac, Eng, and Sci...they need to be balanced.
And yes, there should be a noticeable improvement at each rank.
En < Lt < LCdr T2/T3 < Cmdr T2 < Cmdr T3...
Why thank you
I won't claim full credit for it though, it was an idea I bandied around on another thread (PvP forums, I think) and I was told about TT getting the boost with the shield facing part as prior to that it was hardly used at all.
I'm still in 2 minds as to which I'd prefer - a nerf to tac skills as suggested to bring them in line with eng skills or a boost to eng skills to bring them in line with the tac. I think the nerf is more likely (if anything is likely) but I do like the idea of popping EptS3 and laughing at Guramba's and Bortas'qu more than the idea of popping more often in a cloud of Warp Plasma.
As a complete non sequitur, I've always pictured the ships as D&D-style character classes (Ninja for Escort, Battlecleric for Cruiser and Druid for Sci - back-stabbing, hard hitting and often stealthy / good tank and healer / good crowd control and healer) and tried to use the captain to amplify that or add something new. But then I'm probably weird. :cool:
Jo Cox 22.6.1974 - 16.6.2016