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resoundingenvoy
Member Posts: 439
I'll be un-front, I am highly displease with Attack Pattern Omega. It's a very cool thing, but that's indirectly why I'm angry with it. The tactical ships tree is summary about doing damage, to the exclusion of everything except tactical team. It takes ship that deliberately forgo survival or indirect attacks and removes the their disadvantages.
Which, again, makes it a very cool thing.
My problem is that it's almost exclusive to tactical ships, does more then any other single power, and negates the trade off such ships should be making while letting them keep everything they traded for. So, my suggestion is one of three things:
1) Invert the damage buff. Making ATO lower damage output.
2) Make the attack pattern a less abstract thing, and make the ship actually fly in a preset pattern outside the player's control.
3) Like extend shields, make it only affect allied ship, but never the owning ship.
I like three best as it has a number of secondary affects on a player's style of play. I think will help foster team play, and help negate lone wolf style play of escorts fleeing fights at will and with impunity. The third option like the first should, I think, only require flipping a single switch in a database somewhere.
Which, again, makes it a very cool thing.
My problem is that it's almost exclusive to tactical ships, does more then any other single power, and negates the trade off such ships should be making while letting them keep everything they traded for. So, my suggestion is one of three things:
1) Invert the damage buff. Making ATO lower damage output.
2) Make the attack pattern a less abstract thing, and make the ship actually fly in a preset pattern outside the player's control.
3) Like extend shields, make it only affect allied ship, but never the owning ship.
I like three best as it has a number of secondary affects on a player's style of play. I think will help foster team play, and help negate lone wolf style play of escorts fleeing fights at will and with impunity. The third option like the first should, I think, only require flipping a single switch in a database somewhere.
Post edited by resoundingenvoy on
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But please, do not let common sense stop you as you make poorly thought out suggestions.
If you will not let a thing like reading or basic courtesy get in your way? I will not let thinking ahead get in the way of my comments. :P
I have to ask though, Which cruiser would that be? The assault cruiser refit is the only one I could find that could slot even Attack Pattern Omega I.
You forgot the Excelsior retrofit.
AP-Omega is an excellent BOFF skill, but just because you choose to fly a ship that cannot use AP-Omega, that doesn't mean that AP-Omega warrants a downgrade. That mentality is nothing short of absurd. STO does not revolve around any one player's preferences
Tractor beams should only be usable under 2km, 5km is way too far for something I never use.
Tactical Team is very useful to lots of players, but the shield facing function of it is overpowered, please remove that.
AP:O is fine. It's my only tractor-beam breaker, I can't sacrifice half of my science Boff's on a polarize hull.
Better than nerfing AP:O what about buffs to other attack patterns? Beta is fine, its very popular. Delta could use some work, I think Omega has more survivability than Delta.
Maybe introduce more attack patterns? We don't need Alpha through Omega, but we could use maybe one or two more, in my opinion. You can just cannibalize other abilities from other games and Trek-ify them.
"Attack Pattern: Espilon; For the next 15 seconds, all weapons do 15% less damage, but you take 30% less damage during the duration"
Classic "Ironskin" type ability, do less damage, but receive even less. Good situational cooldown, with a cost.
Attack Pattern: Tau; For 15 seconds, each projectile weapon fired reduces recharge delay by 100% (by half, STO math) and reduces turn rate by 50% (a quarter)"
Reverse alpha attack. The longer it goes the faster you shoot, but the slower you become... kinda like "slowly turn into a turret" mode.
Thoughts on the sheer idiocy of my ideas, or more ideas for new attack patterns?
Who said anything about what ship I choose to fly?
For that matter, if I have to ask that, I have to ask what mentality I have been painted as?
My causes for wanting a change are already stated, and nothing to do with ship preference. To be rude again (with half a point), if your going to bypass what I said to argue with a some ghost that isn't me, why am I in this conversion?
Ignoring all the other fluff that ignores the reason I gave for wanting what I want? That line alone makes my case for me (,and is another way of stating my case)
Attack Pattern Omega is doing more work in one slot then any other power, allowing you to ignore trades off that should have made. All the while letting you keep what you normally would have to trade. Which is my real issue, not that AT:O is a very cool power.
It's a very cool power that letting you do stuff counter to what a normal tactical theme should have given up in trade to stand out as a tactical theme.
Oh! also, thank you for the list. :P
Sorry to be bite the friendly hand, but I still think 'to name a few' doesn't cover even less a 3rd of what's classified as a cruiser. Only then what already tips into the tactical pool heaver then what is normal for a cruiser. So I'll still stand by my 'almost exclusive' phrasing.
just because you dont like something dosnt mean it should be changed..
[12:44] Vessel One of Two Unimatrix 01 deals 1019527 (1157678) Kinetic Damage to you with Plasma Energy Bolt Explosion.
Your 1st post says it all:
There is no reason to be displeased with AP-Omega since it provides multiple benefits and is available to all captain-professions. The only limiting factor is whether or not your ship supports Lt.Cmdr or Cmdr tactical bridge officer stations. Therefore, the only reason to dislike AP-Omega is if your current ship cannot take advantage of AP-Omega and places your build at a disadvantage when facing optimized opponents using it.
Your reasons were not ignored -- they just weren't convincing.
AP-Omega's numerous benefits are offset by its short 15 second duration with a 1 minute cooldown. Therefore, AP-Omega is best used when opposing ships attempt to tractor beam, teleport, web mine, or otherwise incapacitate the AP-Omega-user's ship. AP-Omega cannot be blindly spammed like AP-Beta and AP-Delta -- it must be used judiciously for optimum effect.
I see plenty of non-tactical players running AP-Omega in their builds. Likewise with EPtS, Hazard Emitters, and other "very cool" abilities with no down-sides whatsoever. By your argument, should all must-have STO BOFF skills be nerfed?
We all want to have our targets escaping our firing angle, and being unable to do anything about that.
Any player would enjoy being unable to simply run away for his/her life.
And most importantly, we all want to start moving toward a non aggroed Cube in eSTF, and be responsible for the over aggro, not mentioning our death.
That is an assumption that is never stated by me, and one that is false. I have two separate builds that use APO, though I only use one of them regularly. My motive not explicitly stated? It offends my concept of a fair and balance game I can enjoy while giving the people I play with the same chance, but that wasn't part of my case. It is after all a game I want people to enjoy so they come back to play with me again! :P
I did not expand my case to include a tactical professions, just most tactical ships. I agree in so far is making the dividing line a profession instead of a ship is a bad one. So, that's not the line I drew. :P
That's just for further reference, and has not to do with my case directly. I'm very poor at spelling, but I do choose my words with a obsessive level of care. [edit]If I didn't explicitly say something, there is a very high chance it wasn't by mistake. Though I am imperfect.[/edit]
Then a question should have been raised. You're right, I wasn't 'ignored' by the definition of the word.
Simply? Because that was never my argument, or at least I never meant it to be.
My case in other words is that Attack Pattern Omega does more in one slot then any two other abilities combine (though granted not as well as other), and it does it in a place that allows it to do away with trade offs with no 1:1 loss in what was traded for.
Ok, I can accept that, but a counter point?
APO allow smaller ships to control when to engage or disengage larger slower ships almost at will. If the fight goes poorly, Attack Pattern Omega removes the one ubiquitous counter someone else has to pin a attacker down (tractor beam). In addition its gives a defensive boost, and a speed boost in one slot. In a nut shell? Carrier for example, can not stop, slow, or out turn most escorts.
A escort is practically free to attack one, and if the attack goes poorly? Run away with ease to find another target or harass a carrier until they can outright win.
To continue from shar487a's example? The above carrier would need _at minimum_ polarize hull, and evasive maneuvers to match. That's two separate power with a minimum execution time of 3seconds. (The server will not allow more then one power to execute in a 1.5 second window, if I recall the engine City Of Heroes had and STO was slapped together from correctly.) Polarize Hull has 45sec cool down, and Evasive Maneuvers a 60second cool down. Neither provide the same utility as a single APO. (Polarize hull matches the duration for 15second, but EV only has a duration of 8seconds.) Nor does that include the damage bonus granted. APO can also be used faster then base 60 second cooldown with the correct DOFF, or with a second APO slotted I believe. (I will admit to not having tried to slot two APO at once.)
As someone is sure to point out, that is a tactical ships entire point. To be tactical, that isn't my problem. I want tactical ships to be tactical. I don't want tactical ships to be tactical and be able to ignore deliberate weakness without losings some of their strength in return!
My apology for the slow response, I was too annoyed to properly reply. (Also, sorry for the tipple post.)
Not idiocy. My two cents? The Tactical ability tree needs more diversity, but AP:Esplion or Tau are cool ideas. ^.^ ,but those shouldn't be Attack Patterns. They have their own downside's built in, and I don't think they need to be weighted down by having a shared cool down with all the others.
Attack Pattern Omega has both movement and damage benefits -- this is why it is a high-rank-only (Lt.Cmdr or Commander) tactical skill. Polarize Hull is available as a lowly ensign skill to most ships. Evasive Maneuvers is considerably faster than AP-Omega and does not occupy a skill slot.
Another thing to consider is STO's full space combat meta-game. STO is literally riddled with all sorts of anti-movement crowd control abilties. Polarize Hull only protects against tractor beams -- it does nothing against repulsors or gravity wells. Without universal anti-CC abilities like AP-Omega, STO space combat would simply degenerate into a hold-and-shoot-fest. What would be the point of playing high mobility ships if speed and maneuverability could always be countered by tractor-beams, gravity wells, subsystem engine targetting, graviton pulse, and other movement-disables?
Attack Pattern Omega has remained largely unchanged since STO's initial launch. It could be modified if there is a pressing PVP or PVE based community need. However, you are the first person I am aware of to clamor for such a change, so it is probably safe to say that Cryptic will not change AP-Omega at the risk of upsetting the majority of its loyal customer base.
Secondly tactical's have already taken a damage nerf with going down fighting, which is only usable if your hull is down to 50 percent. Any escort pilot worth his salt know if that happens more then likely your ship is going to go boom.
While we are making that a sticking point? Ask your self why such a thing would be needed.
I dismiss Gravity Well out of hand because of it's cool down and limited firing arc. Remember your counter point this is it allows slow boats to compete, but also remember they have to spend a huge amount of effort lining up a shot in that narrow arc. Which pretty much leave tractor beam as the only really useful direct counter to absolute control of the flow of battle.
This is what make tanks in WII so popular, and did away with most static fortifications. Maneuverability allowed near total dominance of when and where a fight took place.
Your argument are that you'd lose so much of a tactical ships power. I'm left scratching my head and asking "Yes, and?". The maneuverability component of a dedicated escort alone alone is a overwhelming advantage in the right hands.
So, there exists a direct counter. (At least that's why I think tractor beam is there.) Not to be rude, but to my eyes tactical escorts hold a overwhelming advantage because the devs have worked so hard to zero everything else. So, to my eyes the whole counter argument is basically that a CC levels the playing field with showboats, giving them back some control of where and when to fight, and putting you on the same footing they have.
As far as I can read -gaalom, shar487a- you consider this a unholy sin, and I can't figure out why. It's a game, there should be game like 1:1 points and counterpoints. Not a baseline, a overwhelming advantage, and a meager means to sometimes counter but not equal that advantage.
As I said, my problem the AP:O is not that it ignores tractor beams. It's it ignores them in addition to everything else it does. No Lt Cmd or Cmd slot ability does half as much.
Yes, my suggestions are nasty, but they are actually equally nasty to the overall affects AP:O has on a fight.
Edit: Suggestion number 2? The one about putting a user on auto-pilot? That's is the default mode of every over slow boat in the game. They have no effective control over the fight.
I'll repeat what someone else said: APO is essentially the only viable movement-buffing ability an escort can carry. It's the ONLY skill aside from Polarize Hull that has a 'movement debuff immunity' aspect. This is important for escorts, because a lot of them rely on speed-tanking to survive in combat. APO is a skill that combines a speed boost, immunity/high resistance to movement debuffs for 5-15 seconds, and a damage buff. If you really wanted to nerf APO, the most sensible way to do it would be to nerf the damage buff. Problem there is that the Tactical class just got a nerf to its attack buffs via the Go Down Fighting nerf.
Simply put, there really isn't that much wrong with APO. It's a powerful skill, but not OP. It can be removed via Subnucleonic Beam in PvP, and I think enough movement debuffs being applied would overwhelm the immunity. It's an essential skill for escorts in PvP, and TRIBBLE with it would just throw a whole lot of things out of whack.
Saying cruiser is putting words in my mouth, sorry. :P Let me be more specific. My poster child example would be a Atrox or Vo'Quv (both of which are mostly science ships). To a lesser degree maybe a Kar'Fi or federation dreadnaught. I didn't mean 'slowboat' as a another word for cruiser. All though it could include cruisers. I meant ships that are slow.
See there is where the problem starts. You do have to make a choice to keep a tactical ship's maneuverability. However, this choice is almost not a choice because of the total utility of attack pattern omega, and pure tactical ships have the slot to spare.
To counter that, again (:P), it offers so much for so little and covers a area the ship class is ,I think, meant to be hurting as a tic-for-tat balance of it's innately impressive maneuverability. In a way, it's allowing you to have your cake, eat it, and smile smugly while ever other archetype still has to make hard choices like that.
Edit: STO is a multi-player game. Unlike say, asteroids X-Wing, Wing Commander, or that like? The player should have clear basic weakness to go along with their clear basic strengths. ATO plays to the strengths and lessens weaknesses in a big way, and it's unique in that.
Why, yes, it would upset things, but I don't consider that bad given how easily heavy tactical themes and maneuverability utterly dominate PvP.
I don't know if it is poor English or what, but I have having a very difficult time following your train of thought.
Cruisers are large, lumbering ships with large amounts of hull and shields with usually low DPS numbers due to very high weapon power drain while shooting. These are the dedicated "tanks" or meat-shields of STO, relying on brute healing and shield recovery for survival. Escorts are smaller ships with lower hull and shields levels but superior mobility and very heavy firepower due to Dual-Cannon weaponry. Science ships have the highest shield quantities and rely on exotic abilities to disrupt opponent ships.
Back in Season1 and 2, cruisers used to enjoy much higher resists, mobility, and firepower. The result: God-mode cruisers that were nearly unkillable. Cryptic realized that cruiser builds requiring 3+ opposing ships to take down simply didn't make sense from a game balance perspective. Hence they capped resists with depreciating returns capping around 70% as resist console values approached infinity.
Once the above was done, Sci ships became the dominant force in space combat due their high AoE damage outputs and buggy skill targetting issues (e.g., scramble sensors were not self-clearable since you couldn't target yourself while SS'd). Cryptic once again took notice, and Sci abilities were the next to get hit by the nerf bat.
Fast forward to the present -- Escorts are now the best damage dealers due to their many BOFF tac stations and DHC-capable forward weapon mounts. However, they are vulnerable when stationary due to their low base hulls and shields. Easy Solution - disable their movement via tractor beam, PSW-stun, etc. Since Escorts do not have many Engi or Sci BOFF stations, they will have difficulty countering movement disables.
This is where AP-Omega comes into play -- it is the only tactical ability that removes movement debuffs. However, if AP-Omega did not have its damage and resist buffs, then there would be no point in equipping it on an escort since they must kill their opposing targets quickly due to lack of staying power. AP-Beta and Delta only affect hull resists, so AP-Omega is the only attack pattern that provides a sizable damage boost against shields. Yes, AP-Omega is very powerful, but this is why it requires a Lt.Cmdr or Commander TAC station to use. Combined with its 15 second uptime and base 1 minute cool-down at +9 attack patterns skill, it has prevented PVP from becoming a stop-and-stomp-fest. Yes, there isn't another skill out there like AP-Omega -- perhaps this should be corrected by Cryptic so that Engi and Sci get similar benefits, but it is up to them to step up to the plate.
Nasty is an understatement -- it completely ignores all meta-game considerations and regresses STO back to Season1. As a result, your "suggestions" cannot be taken seriously by anyone trying to maintain a competitive space-combat game that has evolved over the last 3 years. Yes, STO space combat is far from being balanced, but it is better than what it used to be.
English? What is this English you speak of? :P If I'm having trouble communicating the point, then maybe I should let it go for now and regroup?
The only other way I can think to work is if each ability had a exact measurement for the amount of work it did Attack Pattern Omega would be worth double or more points then any other one ability. (Do you know why jet fighters or bombers are so affective? Do you know why the Germin Blitzkrieg tactic of World War Two was so affective?)
The only other alternative I can think of would be to give slow capital sized ships capital ship hull and weapons sizes.
I will think of another way to say what I want to say and make another thread tomorrow or the the day after. ^.^
Now I see the problem: You are only comparing AP-Omega to other BOFF skills while ignoring the full combat meta-game. Yes, AP-Omega does more, but this is because the ships that primarily use Omega have generally lower combat survivability. Cruiser have inherently higher shields + hull. Sci ships have the largest shield capacities and multiple enemy disruption abilities. Escorts do get higher DPS weapons, but Season1 demonstrated that heavy weapons are not enough to balance escorts against their larger cruiser and science counterparts.
You have stated that you despise AP-Omega because it seems more powerful than all other skills. However, have you considered that cruisers and sci ships are much stronger until speed and BOFF skills are brought into play? Frankly, I do not care to relive season1, but this is exactly what you are asking for by trying to nerf Omega. Given that AP-Omega is the only attack pattern that increases shield damage, your wish to see it nerfed is yours alone.
This thread's title is better worded as "Irrelevant" instead of "Random" given that its conclusions come from a very narrow, incomplete perspective. Sorry if this comes across as harsh, but I don't know how to phrase it any more accurately.
Tyken's Rift III - Worse joke then GW III.
Scramble Sensors III - It can annoy, but kill? All one needs to do is not fire (blasphemy, I know, but one just has to not hit spacebar for a few moments, and honestly, in that time an escort can fly away and be just fine). I swear, people are going to say, "OMG, but I'll die from 4-7 seconds (average given various fixes for it) of not shooting!". Hate to be the bearer or bad news, but if you were going to die from not firing for five, hell, lets be even more extreme, and say ten, then you were likely going to die anyway, sucks to be you, and that's true of any ship, it affects tacs the least though, as they can run.
Tractor Beam Repulsors III - Wonderful, unless you want to kill your target, yes you may get the rare "kill" from someone popping Polarize Hull or something to ignore the push, but still take the kinetic.
Viral Matrix III - Wonderful, unless they have a human crew, or the doffs that let them shrug it off 40% of the time, pop a battery of some sort, or just use tac team and let it happen, and just shrug it off and fly away.
Warp Plasma III - Pop HE, any level, and it's all good.
Boarding Parties III - Does anything really need to be said? Tyken's rift at least does something, as everyone has tac team, and almost always two copies.
Now then...
That isn't to say there are skills that are useful to Science ships (I primarily speak of science ships, as I have pretty much nil exp with cruisers, but I do include cruiser skills, as people generally insist that it's so easy to capture escorts).
Feedback Pulse III - Wonderful counter attack, but has a massive cooldown, 1 minute 40 seconds.
Viral Matrix III - Why do I have it here too? Because if they, for some stupid reason, have none of the counters, or somehow blew all their perks, then it might actually stop the enemy long enough to hurt them. Still, human crews ftw, so it's a tentative "good" skill.
Reverse Shield Polarity III - Wonderful, great way to get shields back. 2 minute cooldown.
The point of listing all these skills? These are all commander level skills, yet they have 1.5-2x the cooldown duration (in some cases same or smiliar, such as Gravity Well, Tyken's Rift, but those are pretty much useless), and none of the use by comparison.
I saw someone, while reading the entire thread, state that if it didn't give them freedom of movement, they'd have to give up the few science slots they'd get. I have an immediate counter to this: Is it really less grievous to have science ships sacrifice most (in several cases all) of their tactical spaces for tac team, or for engineering ships to do the same?
"Yeah, but tac team is good, and science ships shouldn't do damage!" I wholly agree, science ships shouldn't be spamming doom, but you see, tac team isn't a balanced skill in and of itself. Tac Team I counters Boarding Party III, instantly, completely, and usually without effort as most people run dual tac teams. What's more, the shield distribution is required to have a hope in hell in combat. Don't believe me? Run your ship, an escort even, without it and see how long you last. Bet you that survival will plummet. It's turned into a required skill, punishing non-tactical ships even further in that regard, because without it, they are screwed. "But tactical team is way more useful then polarize hull!" Is it? Stops you from getting stopped by tractors, letting you flee to kill another day.
"But that's why I have APO!" Wonderful, but then there are some issues, because it's already faster then other commander skills, and as has been pointed out to a minor degree, and of actual use.
In short:
The argument that it's a Commander skill falls flat on it's face if pretty much all the other Commander skills either have much longer duration (for similar use), or are pretty much useless.
The argument that it's an unfair burden that tac captains would have to use a science skill is hypocritical, at best, as it's required of everyone to use tac team and burn what little tactical skill slots they get. If I had to make a suggestion to more balance the "team" skills,
Engineering Team - Hull heal, and instant system repairs for the duration (15 seconds).
Tactical Team - Damage boost in all areas, instant counter to boarding parties, and minor defense bonus. (15 seconds)
Science Team - Shield distribution, improve shield emitters for duration (10 seconds).
This seems more in keeping with the ships in question, and helps to balance the skills. One really would have to decide between tac team, science team, or engineering team. Do I want a hull heal, and to keep things like VM, and phasers at bay? Eng Team. Do I want to keep from getting nuked by boarding parties, and want to pump out some nice damage as I run around? Tac team. Do I want to keep my shields going as best I can? Science team.
As to APO itself, if I had to make some suggestions (which I feel one should if you're going to criticize), ditch the hold immunity. Why that of all things? Because as it stands, it gives extra defense in two ways (speed, and natural perk of the skill itself), gives a damage boost, and increases speed akin to Evasive Maneuvers. As it stands now, things go to hell? APO, which trumps all. The alternative is redo other skills so they are more in line.
I fully admit, nerf isn't the only answer, but if that's the case, then a serious buff is in order for other Commander level skills.
Anyway, I've rambled way too much, and I'm sure I've made at least a few people angry, though hopefully not too angry.
If you nerf the hold immunity of Pattern Omega, you'd best come up with some sort of workable replacement. Maybe buffing Polarize Hull into a universal hold immunity.
Lastly, I remind people of this: APO has a total, maximum duration of 15 seconds, and that's for only 4 of its 7 effects. The speed and defense boosts are a mere 5 seconds. Combine that with the long-ish cooldown on APO, the fact that it can be subnuked away, and the suspicion I have that it's not a perfect immunity (applying enough debuffs will overwhelm it, I think). . .I think the claims of overpowered-ness are a little exaggerated. It's certainly not weak or average, but I wouldn't say it's 'too powerful'.
In a 1v1 setting is the best way to demonstrate the issue though. A ship shouldn't be able to routinely destroy the opposing ship, assuming same quality of gear, and skill of the players, yet that is the case. I also have no issue with science ships being skill ships, and support ships, however you hit the nail on the head of what my argument is.
When you have to throw on additional skills just to make one skill useable, it is, in fact, under powered. I am not saying Gravity Well should lock a person down outright, but when I lose minimal speed, at best, in an a carrier even, it's pretty damned weak, and the fact that to make it "effective" you have to use another skill, such as tractor beam, or have someone there to spam something like warp plasma illustrates that point all the more. Why? Because Omega instantly counters those things, even when stacked? Does it do it perfectly as Cryptic claims? I doubt it, but it's certainly does a close enough job to make it seem such. So, assuming the person isn't an idiot, and holds onto APO, then he can instantly counter, presumably, any hold, or at the least, multiple holds.
How are these skills then not weak or underpowered?
As to making Polarize Hull an all hold immunity, that's acceptable, but it arguably already pretty much is. The only effective hold is Tractor Beams, as it stands, because if you're in warp plasma, you're going to pop Hazards due to the movement debuffs, and burn while in it, which instantly counters it.
As to the argument of it's cooldown, it's no more then pretty much all other skills, with few exceptions (primarily in doff use), and shares the same (or similar depending on doffs of each ship) cool down with Gravity Well. Either it's over powered, or they're under powered, because as it stands now, APO is a universal hold break, speed buff, damage buff (admittedly short, and if the hold immunity removed, I'd advocate for increases in durations of damage, speed, and possibly turn to 10-15 seconds), disable immunity. It literally counters everything, no matter what you throw at it, where as every other class has skills that are either a joke, in either cool down, or effect.
R.I.P