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Fantastic News: New Mine holding now gives 15% discount!!
newromulan1
Member Posts: 2,229
salamiinferno wrote: »We will be bringing the Tribble server down for maintenance to apply a new update.
ST.31.20130609a.9
General:
- Dilithium Mine
- All discounts in the Dilithium Mine have been improved:
- Tier 1 4%
- Tier 2 9%
- Tier 3 15%
This change is one of the best I have heard yet - 15% is an excellent amount to receive and will significantly help out struggling fleets.
Bravo on making these changes!!
Post edited by newromulan1 on
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Comments
you would prefer it stay at 3% 6% 9% ?
Mine Trap Supporter
I think it works out at around a wash - meaning the mine will pay for itself in starbase savings. So it's kind of like an extra holding for free. Of course it will definitely go into a net positive with the next few holdings.
Most smaller fleets should put the rest on hold and get this up to at least the 9% level - which is the second cheapest to do and then start moving again on the rest of the base - unless you are up against some big upgrades like T4 and all it's upgrades - then it might be better just to finish the mine.
If that is true then this is really an improvement only in a technical sense.
This is far from an excellent amount. It is below the break-even point even if nothing had been done yet on the Starbase or Embassy, so small fleets are still further behind than before.
Precisely.
Does that include just dilithium?
Or Commodities?
Or Doffs?
Of Fleet marks?
What about the reductions to make provisions? Can't incude that as it is variable on how many you make.
What about the reduction on buying gear and ships? Can't include that as that is also variable.
15% will definitely cover the costs if you do the base and buy gear and ships + you get new armour and warp core slots + recurring extra dilithium doff missions
Those are dependent on how many you do - so you can earn more dillithium every day - number will be dependent on how much you do - so it can't include that either.
as it offers other stuff i think 15% is pretty decent. i was ultimately hoping for closer to 18-20% but 15 is ok.
It's a significant improvement over the previous 9% max.
Now a fleet can get that 9% at just Tier 2 which is only about half the cost of the holding(T2 to T3 being the biggest requirment of resourses)
Like I said in the other thread - fleets existed before bases just fine.
Bottom line is unless you PvP - then no-one "needs" any ships/gear that comes out of the starbase.
There is no content in the game that cannot be done fairly easily with gear from:
Mission drops
PvE Q'd drops
Exchange - Blue gear
Rep system
Crafting(cough)
Fleet equipment and ships are just an expensive shinny to have - no-one needs them to play the game.
Can the fleet stuff make the game grind easier - yes - but that's about it.
That's ridiculous. It's quite clear at this point is that Fleet Holdings are now one of the primary means of gear advancement.
Do you need the gear? No. But if those of us in small fleets can't advance, maybe we should just all bail and go play other MMOs that aren't as abusive of their players. Better that than grinding for months for infinitesimal progress.
How long do you think it will take your small fleet to build this new holding?
Does your fleet have a T3 embassy?
When was your fleet created?
As your fleet members pour resources into this new holding instead of the main starbase, do you think you it will take more time or less time to reach T5?
We have about 25 regulars that sort of donate, some more than others.I wouldn't say I am particularly happy about it. I am not opposed to it for any reason I can think of given the adjustment to the amount.
Couldn't possibly say. When did the Embassy come out? We're sort of close to done with that and somewhere in the t3 sb area.
I don't think we do have a t3 embassy yet
We were formed the day of the game's headstart. like 2 days before official launch
Again couldn't possibly say. Most of our resource influx has been sporadic because people only do that when they're interested in playing and not grinding for rep gear that eats up their resources. I should note that a lot disappear after they rep grind a bit. They get bored fast.
The embassy was released on November 13, 2012... more than 7 months ago.
Ok, so to call our investment in the base half-interested sounds accurate given that. Really, it's just not a priority for a lot of us. Frankly I'd rather twiddle my thumbs than bother with it personally.
Addendum: in light of what I said there I should explain my involvement here. I was XO of the fleet until arguments over ways to manage base projects and the idea of basing rank on fleet credits made me so crazy I quit that job. I do like to poke in here and look out for my guys from time to time though.
Also I wish people would stop using the you don't use X to mine X anaologies they're horrible and don't work because your comparing apples to organes.
Yes you don't use gold to mine gold, but you do use electricity generated from coal power plants to help mine coal. The coal mining companies sell coal to hydro electric companies which use it in Coal power plants to generate electicity which they then sell in part back to the coal company. Now clearly the coal mine generates more coal profits then it spends in electricty mining the coal, but the power company still expects a check for the bill.
Also looking at what the dilithium in the mine goes to, alot of it isn't the mine, its missions to other stars systems looking for markets, workers, and so on, which take great quanities of Dilithium to power. The actual mine costs no Dilithium, its all the other stuff that costs dilithium.
Anyways as I said you have to look at the big picture not just apart of it, the 15 percent will save alot of dilithium, but the dilithium mission, the dilithium assignment, and the refining cap increase will help a ton.
Now to be fair this is a much bigger advantage to large fleets, having hundreds of players pouring that extra dilithium generated into fleet projects it will be a major source of dilithium.
Say 500 dilithium from half of Klingon Intelligence, which half is around 245 people. That's over a hundred thousand dilithium extra for a major project a day.
So yes it will break even on dilithium when you add dilithium generation to dilithium discounts.
Plus reducing items for for projects will help especially if doffs count as items, as this will allow for more none dilithium projects which will save you dilithium.
5/10/20 or GTFO, pretty much.
Yeah but it cost lots of DIL to get that DIL discount By the end, you wind up paying more anyway. Or around the same. The discounts are a complete joke and another money making scheme.
Small fleets have no chance at all in STO to survive with the amount they have to pay out. We have some high money makers in our Fleet who contribute , and it still is not enough to keep up with demand even with all our members contributing. It's such a complete joke. Only big fleets can handle these projects.
They are really trying to fade out the smaller fleets.
The 17% number assumes a new fleet starts the mine and ignores the embassy and starbase, only does the high XP projects and upgrades until the mine is maxed, then proceeds to the embassy and starbase in the same manner.
It assumes this fleet never provisions before or after the cap and doesn't consider the discount to stores. It does account for all inputs, and generally uses Cryptic's ideas for relative value - i.e. the mine is assumed to cost the same as the embassy, despite having different inputs on those high XP projects.
It's actually a really bad comparison, because once capped, this hypothetical fleet will be making back about 0.1% of their investment with every provisioning project they run, and even without provisioning will break even on a fourth holding which has already been confirmed for some point in the future. A better comparison is that most new fleets won't be following this path because despite being mathematically ideal, it's inefficient, unproductive and induces excessive downtime, or that most fleets have already progressed past a lot of their returns. A fleet that's already tier 4 or 5 in their starbase will effectively never come close to their investment and is more concerned with the mine for its other rewards and resource gathering than the discounts.
I rather see the discount mechanic from dilithium mine tiers like this:
Tier 1
4% discount on all fleet projects requirements
4% dilithium discount for all fleet store items
4% less time required to complete fleet projects*
10% increase in fleet credits gained from fleet project contributions**
Tier 2
9% discount on all fleet projects requirements
9% dilithium discount for all fleet store items
9% less time required to complete fleet projects*
20% increase in fleet credits gained from fleet project contributions**
Tier 3
15% total discount on all fleet projects requirements
15% total dilithium discount for all fleet store items
15% less time required to complete fleet projects*
30% total increase in fleet credits gained from fleet project contributions**
(note; the values are final values, not cumulative)
* This could be added somewhere else on a different section of the mine.
** Reason for this is fleet credits will become harder to come by as less contributions are needed.
sig
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It is a peculiar phenomenon that we can imagine events that defy the laws of the universe.
You got to understand dude, this will never happen. Cryptic/PWE main point is to make the max profit out of the game. I would say more then half the player base will convert there Zen to DIL to gain these projects as fast as they can. Cryptic knows this.
they are not dumb, they know how to make money. This stupid DIL mine is just another way. I
There is NO REASON they couldn't add these upgrades to the existing fleet projects like the embassy, or i don't know the main STarbase.
It's a complete and utter joke and a slap in the face.
I would love for a DEV to come on here and try to prove me wrong and give me some dumb PR response on how "this will make the game better overall for the playerbase!" Yeah right.
The discount is there just to attract people to do the project and get a really stupid low discount so the player base buys for Zen to convert more to DIL.
This is the most efficient scenario possible. In reality, where small fleets have already spent on upgrades to the starbase and embassy, the break-even number is higher.
Remember, we're talking about small fleets. A smart small fleet will do almost all of it's provisioning as early as possible for efficiency's sake.
And why should it? We're talking about building up the base, not individual characters.
Wrong. It's a pretty fair comparison, because small fleets just don't need that much provisioning.
It's already the case that it will take many months (years, more likely) for a small fleet to complete all these holdings. And now you want them to do a fourth? Just to break even?
That's bull - this was supposed to give significant help to small fleets trying to progress holdings, not take years to break even.
Dude. It's mathematically ideal (true), therefore, it's the most efficient possible.
Which means that they will necessarily choose less efficient paths, which means that even 17% isn't break-even.
I know it's a new and far-out concept that a business is trying to profit and make money to keep operating - but it was bound to happen some day.
I mean companies in America/world couldn't keep operating for free forever - could they?
/end sarcasm
-It makes the least efficient use of time among commonly proposed plans (it is possible to be even less time efficient in contrived fringe scenarios)
-It does not make efficient use of resource income, leaving no furthur projects when the limited options available have been filled, and cost/time is far more relevant than cumulative cost in a finite advancement system.
-And despite rates being more relevant than absolutes, it does not even make efficient use of absolute resources, either, as surpluses of certain items (in particularly duty officers - more than 50% of the duty officers generated during the mine phase of this strategy will be unusable towards the mine) built up during the mine phase will exceed storage capacities, forcing those items to go to other uses (particularly being sold other fleets not doing this). Other resources (dilithium, EC equivalents) that do not go directly to waste will still be left untapped and will go be more available for applications, meaning significant amounts of resources leaving the fleet that could be used within it. And to make things a bit worse here, a lot of those resources leaving the fleet are going to dilithium and reputation stores to procure items that have alternatives within the fleet system which are not being made available, meaning they will likely be expended again at a later point in the project.
-The leveling strategy causes tier upgrades, particularly at tier 1, to overlap, locking out tracks during extended upgrade cycles and compounding all other forms of inefficiency.
-No provisioning effectively means that the entire exercise is being done without return on investment anyway.
I mean, you clearly understand my points, but you're stuck on a word that doesn't mean what you want it to mean.
kind of a silly standpoint. If it were only about money we'd be able to sink the cooldown time of base projects at 2 dil per second. The major objection for a lot of people is the massive time waste
More accurately, the major objection is that the mine is in no way shape or form what it was described to be. Most notably, a significant reduction in the burden placed on fleets to complete their starbase.
Let's review.
You say the mathematical ideal is the maximum use of the discount. I agree.
I say that getting less than the maximum use of the discount is inefficient. I say that paying more than you have to is inefficient. You disagree.
Quite the contrary, you are stuck on a word that doesn't mean what you think it means. Inconceivable, I know.