Should the Scimitar be a playable ship?

sentinel64

This is a discussion thread, so no one is wrong in their opinion (so be polite and constructive).

I was looking forward to LoR, like many, because it would offer ST ships that have made the series/movies enjoyable; the specific ships for me are the Mogai and the Scimitar. I started to think about how the Scimitar could be a playable ship and came to the opinion that this is one ship that needs to be an NPC ship only. I still want to see a one-off Scimitar-like ship (different design and no thalaron weapon system) to be added as a combination carrier/dreadnought for the Romulans, but the specific design for the Scimitar should not be a playable ship. The following is my reasoning.

1. The most obvious reason, the Scimitar was made to be a WMD (weapon of mass destruction). The movie showed that the core of the ship is the thalaron weapon system designed to wipe out life on entire planets. This is not something the FEDs would support or the KDF would allow to operate in their space (if not under their control), and D'tan seems like a character that would abhor such a ship being in the RR fleet.

2. It is the ultimate "bad guy" ship for the storylines. The use of it so far has been for the Tal Shiar, IRW and Borgified ship in STFs. A bunch of playable Scimitar would just make it another oversized whales floating around space (until the fad wears out and the majority give it up since any thalaraon system would be massively nerfed to maintain balance).

3. The PvP role of such a ship would either be limited (if nerfed) or OP/imbalanced (if the base version were allowed in game, which is unlikely).

4. The only way to add a Scimitar to game would be another lockbox to ensure it is rare and to make a lot of money off the addition of it to STO (if CBS, or whomever, allows the base version into the game). I just don't want to see a faction ship being lockboxed.

Overall, it would be nice to have a carrier beast based on the Scimitar (minus the wings used for thalaorn wep, and a body change to give it a sleeker look), but the Scimitar base design and capabilities need to be for the NPC bad guys.

So, what is your opinion? (yea/nay and justification)

akikisaragi

Sure, I'd buy it and plan to being it's supposed to be in the C-Store at some point.

mrkollins

According to Dstahl the Scimitar is coming to the Z-Store in a few weeks, not in a Lock Box.

neohunter200

...with extremely looowwwwwwww turn rate....and tons of weapon slots...

sparhawk

sopwithsnipe wrote: »

Yeah. Isn't it gonna be one of those 3 ship packs for 5000 zen?

Probably, I haven't seen any Cryptic comments yet though.

johngazman

sentinel64 wrote: »

This is a discussion thread, so no one is wrong in their opinion (so be polite and constructive).

In that case, I must say; your choice of text colour - IT BURNS THE EYES, MAN!

Ahem.

To the point at hand, I feel the Scimitar should be a playable ship. It's the iconic Romulan ship of late, perhaps to the point that it might be becoming more iconic than some of the other Romulan ships.

But more than that, when it is introduced - because it will be - it will most likely be the Romulan equivalent of the Oddy and the Bortas, with elements of the Atrox and Vo'Quv thrown in. Of all the ships the Romulans have, they are sorely lacking a dedicated Science ship (the Ha'Nom does not count) and a carrier. It stands to reason that, given the Nemesis' Scimitar's complement of Scorpion fighters, it could be considered to function as a carrier vessel.

Additionally, I don't care for the Thalaron weapon. I would not care if it was not included when the ship is released in the C-Store. I'd still buy it - and the other variants if the devs hold their word and it releases as 3-pack - because it's an awesome design.

PvP is broken anyway, so it's irrelevant if it's OP/unbalanced. It'll never match a JHAS or a Kumari so there'd be no point taking it into PvP.

D'Tan, by the way, has no qualms allying with Obisek - a man known to be (or have been) in possession of Thalaron weapons. And he's not going to start turning down Scimitar dreadnoughts for his cause - they're powerful warships in their own right, after all. And since I was prepared to look the other way and let Obisek go during "Frozen", i'm sure the Federation can suck it up and do the same.

Finally - Lockbox Scimitars are not going to happen. This idea was quashed by the Devs ages ago.

EDIT: Damn you long post and your long postiness!

orangeitis

If they changed the thalaron weapon to only lower crew count/recovery rate instead of cause damage, I'm all for it.

thetanine

I'm guessing Cryptic will make the Scimitar a three-ship bundle that will sell for $50 for all three ships. Or we will be able to buy them one by one for 2500 c-store coins, each. Or something like that. Just like they've done with the Odyssey and the Rademaker and the Kumari.

sekritagent

One of the few reasons I made a Reman (aligned to KDF, of course).

marc8219

sentinel64 wrote: »

This is a discussion thread, so no one is wrong in their opinion (so be polite and constructive).

I was looking forward to LoR, like many, because it would offer ST ships that have made the series/movies enjoyable; the specific ships for me are the Mogai and the Scimitar. I started to think about how the Scimitar could be a playable ship and came to the opinion that this is one ship that needs to be an NPC ship only. I still want to see a one-off Scimitar-like ship (different design and no thalaron weapon system) to be added as a combination carrier/dreadnought for the Romulans, but the specific design for the Scimitar should not be a playable ship. The following is my reasoning.

1. The most obvious reason, the Scimitar was made to be a WMD (weapon of mass destruction). The movie showed that the core of the ship is the thalaron weapon system designed to wipe out life on entire planets. This is not something the FEDs would support or the KDF would allow to operate in their space (if not under their control), and D'tan seems like a character that would abhor such a ship being in the RR fleet.
RR already uses Scimitars, you see them in Azure nebula rescue. Besides being a WMD it is the factions dreadnought. I think the Thalaron weapon will be a console super attack like the Bortasqu autocannon.

2. It is the ultimate "bad guy" ship for the storylines. The use of it so far has been for the Tal Shiar, IRW and Borgified ship in STFs. A bunch of playable Scimitar would just make it another oversized whales floating around space (until the fad wears out and the majority give it up since any thalaraon system would be massively nerfed to maintain balance).the thalaron could work somewhat like Donatras, on normal STF it usually won't 1 shot kill you, on elite it usually does, the player version should be able to instant kill or come close if its fully tac buffed, just like the Bortas autocannon.

3. The PvP role of such a ship would either be limited (if nerfed) or OP/imbalanced (if the base version were allowed in game, which is unlikely).
If it is anything like the bortasqu it will have massive firepower but hard to handle, it will be very powerful only in the hands of a pilot experinced with big ships
4. The only way to add a Scimitar to game would be another lockbox to ensure it is rare and to make a lot of money off the addition of it to STO (if CBS, or whomever, allows the base version into the game). I just don't want to see a faction ship being lockboxed.
I think it will be z-store 3 pack, it should be Romulans flagship.
Overall, it would be nice to have a carrier beast based on the Scimitar (minus the wings used for thalaorn wep, and a body change to give it a sleeker look), but the Scimitar base design and capabilities need to be for the NPC bad guys.
I hope it isn't a carrier. Carriers give up a weapon slot or 2 or get weird boff layouts, I want this to be full on fighting ship with full capabilities. Scorpion fighters could be a pet console that lauches a wing of them instead of a destroyer or bop like the other flagships
So, what is your opinion? (yea/nay and justification)

I will buy Scimitar 3 pack instantly, I hope it is out soon, responses in red.

arvistaljik

sentinel64 wrote: »

1. The most obvious reason, the Scimitar was made to be a WMD (weapon of mass destruction). The movie showed that the core of the ship is the thalaron weapon system designed to wipe out life on entire planets. This is not something the FEDs would support or the KDF would allow to operate in their space (if not under their control), and D'tan seems like a character that would abhor such a ship being in the RR fleet.

Thalaron weapons, as per Nemesis, do ZERO damage to all non-biological things. That being said, the only ships that a thalaron burst would do damage to is those of Species 8472 (aka the Undine) since they use living ships. The overall effect of the weapon should only be on crew health and crew regen. Add to that the ability for it to affect the power systems of Federation ships since they run off of bio-neural circuitry. Additionally, use of the thalaron weapon should take your engines offline, just like it does for Sela's flagship and Donatra's assimilated Scimitar.

sentinel64 wrote: »

2. It is the ultimate "bad guy" ship for the storylines. The use of it so far has been for the Tal Shiar, IRW and Borgified ship in STFs. A bunch of playable Scimitar would just make it another over sized whales floating around space (until the fad wears out and the majority give it up since any thalaron system would be massively nerfed to maintain balance).

With a turn rate similar to the Odyssey and Bortasqu, I don't think it would be any more popular than those two ships. Just because it's big and would likely have a forward-heavy weapons layout doesn't mean it will instantly be an overly popular ship.

sentinel64 wrote: »

3. The PvP role of such a ship would either be limited (if nerfed) or OP/imbalanced (if the base version were allowed in game, which is unlikely).

See above responses.

sentinel64 wrote: »

4. The only way to add a Scimitar to game would be another lockbox to ensure it is rare and to make a lot of money off the addition of it to STO (if CBS, or whomever, allows the base version into the game). I just don't want to see a faction ship being lockboxed.

I disagree. Like others, I believe that this will be a 5000 Zen 3-pack handled in the same way as the Odyssey and Bortasqu (5000 for the pack, 2,500 for individual ships).

sentinel64 wrote: »

Overall, it would be nice to have a carrier beast based on the Scimitar (minus the wings used for thalaron weapon, and a body change to give it a sleeker look), but the Scimitar base design and capabilities need to be for the NPC bad guys.

I concur with others in that the Scimitar should NOT be a carrier. Having a console that launches Scorpion fighters would put it on par with the other pet consoles of the Federation and Klingon flagships.

In conclusion, I think it would be best if the "three pack" consoles were (1) Thalaron Weapon Array, (2) Scorpion Fighter Wing, and (3) "Something Cloaking Related" to fall in line with it's special cloak as seen in the movie (this could include a LIMITED TIME "fire while cloak" ability). All-in-all the Scimitar that makes it into the game will likely either be on-par with the other faction flagships or it will fit a mini-niche in the STO gameplay style and we'll end up seeing a different and custom designed flagship much like the Odyssey and Bortasqu designs are custom for the Federation and Klingons.

phoenicius

i don't know why people keep acting as if the thalaron weapon is something extremely OP, its incredibly easy to dodge(and survive if you're an engineer), even it cryptic kept it as it is(they won't obviously), especially now that emergency power to engines speed bonus lasts 30 secs rather than 5.

make it so the thalaron does something like 20-30k with 5 sec activation, there it does reasonable damage and it won't instakill anyone.

foundrelic

I'll happily take the ship without the Thalaron weapon system, as long as something, console, three piece console bonus, SOMETHING gives it the ability to fire while cloaked. Even if it's only for a short while.

That and an obscene amount of firepower, in keeping with the prototype.

a3001

I think it would certainly be very interesting to fly a tactical space whale that takes ~15 seconds to charge up it's main weapon and is able to oneshot any player. Would certainly make tractor beams a must to keep the guy within the firing arc, but even then it's tricky. I would also speculate about the carrier version of the Scimitar since the Vo'quv of the KDF is both carrier while in player hands and Dreadnought while as an NPC. It would also fill in the carrier gap that the Romulans are facing currently. I should also point out that there have been several successful battleship to carrier conversions in real life before and during WWII, but I digress. Anyways, like the posters before me have pointed out, a Scimitar would behave alot like the Bortasqu' in terms of manuverability, firepower, and layout. However, there would be exceptions as the Scimitar (as canon) would have, at minimum, a hangar bay to launch scorpion fighters and it's thalaron weapon would be single shot, cone AOE.

notapwefan

sure, but it should have turn rate less than any available ship in the game

a3001

notapwefan wrote: »

sure, but it should have turn rate less than any available ship in the game

tell me, have you ever used the Caitian Atrox carrier before?

neoakiraii

The Republic NPC's you summon to protect the Starbase uses Thalaron weapons. I don't recall our Remen friends saying here you go we will stop, as far as i know the Republic, and the Remen use Thalaron weapons....What D'tan does not know don't bother me, its for the good of the Republic for it's safety.

kregor

notapwefan wrote: »

sure, but it should have turn rate less than any available ship in the game

5-7 would be the ideal turn rate imho.


Ideal weapons would be DBBs (well, if you're an Engi, and can support that kind of energy drain). Though some more specialized builds (9/9 ImpThrusters, 2 or so RCS consoles, Tachyo-Kinetic, as many bonuses to engine power as you can spare) could work well with cannons.


I'd like to see it be the ship that properly rewards those of us that know how to fly the bigger vessels.

wufangchu

Personally, I think the Adapted Cruiser and battleship should be in the store and a properly done to scale Scimitar should be in the lock boxes.. But thats just my opinion..

asardetemplari

Yes, it should be playable, provided it's not a lockbox ship.

flash525

I think it should, yeah. It's been mentioned about it being the unbeatable enemy, but then at one time, the Jem Hadar Dreadnought was thought of as such; and we've got that in game.

Assuming it's going to the Store, and assuming it'll be done in a 3-pack, the (what I think to be) ideal solution is to have the TAC variant with a module that boosts weapon / cloak abilities, an ENG variant that can use Scorpion Fighters, and a SCI variant that can use the Thelaron Console.

Each should have 5x fore weapons and 2x aft (or maybe even 6x fore weapons at a push). I doubt the Scimitar was built for much rear firing, thus it makes sense to focus all weapons at the front.

sopwithsnipe wrote: »

We used to have a person on the CoH forums that insisted on using walls of neon pink text. You could hear the rods and cone explode in people eyes when they stumbled across her posts.

I can only imagine just how annoying that must have been. :P

phoenicius

flash525 wrote: »

I think it should, yeah. It's been mentioned about it being the unbeatable enemy, but then at one time, the Jem Hadar Dreadnought was thought of as such; and we've got that in game.

Assuming it's going to the Store, and assuming it'll be done in a 3-pack, the (what I think to be) ideal solution is to have the TAC variant with a module that boosts weapon / cloak abilities, an ENG variant that can use Scorpion Fighters, and a SCI variant that can use the Thelaron Console.

Each should have 5x fore weapons and 2x aft (or maybe even 6x fore weapons at a push). I doubt the Scimitar was built for much rear firing, thus it makes sense to focus all weapons at the front.

I can only imagine just how annoying that must have been. :P

i disagree that only the engineer version should have scorps, the original scimitar had scorps, so every scimitar should have scorps, it will give the romulans a much needed carrier, give it 4 weapons front and 3 back with 2 hangars.

flash525

phoenicius wrote: »

i disagree that only the engineer version should have scorps, the original scimitar had scorps, so every scimitar should have scorps, it will give the romulans a much needed carrier, give it 4 weapons front and 3 back with 2 hangars.

The original also had an advanced battle cloak and a thelaron weapon built into the ship. I suppose you want all of this to be incorporated into each of these potential ships?

There is such a thing as too powerful, and I think, in order to make this work, they're going to have to compromise somewhat.

lianthelia

I don't care if it has one or two but I want it to have at least one hanger, I mean we saw plenty of Scorpions in her hanger...that's where Scorpions came from.

I just so want to make a Reman that will command a Scimitar that will launch Scorpion fighters that has one of the Reman skins for the hull!

phoenicius

flash525 wrote: »

The original also had an advanced battle cloak and a thelaron weapon built into the ship. I suppose you want all of this to be incorporated into each of these potential ships?

There is such a thing as too powerful, and I think, in order to make this work, they're going to have to compromise somewhat.

indeed, lets compromise on the advanced battle cloak, give a severely nerfed thalaron weapon(if any at all), and keep the scorpions, which you know cryptic already added via reputation.

like i said, romulans don't have carriers and they need at least one, every faction has one, make the scimitar a carrier.

cptskeeteruk

I personally dont want to have a sim be a playable ship, its a boss ship i.e dontra or whatever shes called. Even if they underpower it from cannon setups it will still be a visually boss ship which i dont believe we need to have in the game.

So cryptic i hope you dont but i know you will because you want to be greedy from the money it will bring when it comes in a lockbox. Set some limits please.

I mean i can picture it now, 5 romys in a kase killing the borgified sim... Hows that gona go i wonder..

equinox976

If they do I seriously hope they let you zoom out more than you can at the moment. Some of the new Romulan ships are so big they take up most of the screen even when zoomed out to maximum.

Other than that, I have no problem with it being a player ship.

asd123sd

In the same way... I want to buy my Tholian Tarantula.

artanisen

i do hope they add the scimitar as a carrier ship.

kinda pointless to give romulans scorpion fighters and not
have a carrier ship available.

mikearoo

I did not buy the LoR pack, there wasn't anything in there I really wanted. I might go Fleet Mogai on one character, but if the Scimitar is a carrier (as others have pointed out, we DO have Scorpion fighters in Rep), I will buy it, hands down.

artanisen

the scimitar use to be a powerful ships 30 years ago and
due to the destruction of romulan home world and lack of
resources it would be obvious that the scimitar have to be
scaled down a bit and make use of the blue print schematics
of the ship. specially the thalaron weapon technology
would be unavailable.

but this is just my thought on it.