Question to Owners of tholian carriers...

foxk1234

One gets 2 hangars of blue lvl fighters and you can have a total of 12, yes, 12 out fighting for you. You could upgrade to the purples but according to the description, each bay launches 1 fighter and you can have 2 flights each for a total of 4. Does anyone know if the HUGE decrease in fighters is worth it?.....It seems 4 purple fighters must do HELLA damage to beat 12 that can do medium damage....any thoughts?

capnmanx

foxk1234 wrote: »

One gets 2 hangars of blue lvl fighters and you can have a total of 12, yes, 12 out fighting for you. You could upgrade to the purples but according to the description, each bay launches 1 fighter and you can have 2 flights each for a total of 4. Does anyone know if the HUGE decrease in fighters is worth it?.....It seems 4 purple fighters must do HELLA damage to beat 12 that can do medium damage....any thoughts?

Aren't the blue ones Widow fighters? That would make the Mesh Weavers frigate pets wouldn't it? The numbers are pretty standard for frigates.

talien

Yeah, the Mesh Weavers are a completely different item than Widows. The purple Widows are apparently going to be coming in with the Tholian reputation system we'll be getting on the 21st, but they're getting changed to be usable by any ship with a hangar bay and not just a Recluse.

foxk1234

hmm...interesting. There are already purple ones available as we speak :P I didn't notice they were mesh weavers though

momaw

You can have 12 fighters. They are called Tholian Widows. They have around 4K hitpoints, meaning they tend to die the instant anything looks at them. They have a beam array, and a quantum torpedo. Their beam array is very weak, quantum torpedoes are slow, and in general this pet is outperformed by basic Peregrines/To'Duj fighters.


You can have 4 frigates. They are called Tholian Mesh Weavers. They have around 30K hitpoints, which means they can take a few hits. They have 2 dual beams, a beam array, and a thermionic torpedo launcher. Their beam weapons have much higher power than the Widows, and their torpedo launcher is also much higher in damage as well as having a chance to drain the target's weapon and engine power. They know the abilities Attack Pattern Beta (increases their own damage, and yours, and everybody else), Fire At Will (they can potentially hit up to 6 targets per shot), and Evasive Maneuvers (they like to go fast.)


In vague terms, a single Mesh Weaver is about as strong as 6 Widow fighters.

They are very good pets.

foxk1234

thanks....that's VERY helpful

errab

momaw wrote: »

You can have 12 fighters. They are called Tholian Widows. They have around 4K hitpoints, meaning they tend to die the instant anything looks at them. They have a beam array, and a quantum torpedo. Their beam array is very weak, quantum torpedoes are slow, and in general this pet is outperformed by basic Peregrines/To'Duj fighters.


You can have 4 frigates. They are called Tholian Mesh Weavers. They have around 30K hitpoints, which means they can take a few hits. They have 2 dual beams, a beam array, and a thermionic torpedo launcher. Their beam weapons have much higher power than the Widows, and their torpedo launcher is also much higher in damage as well as having a chance to drain the target's weapon and engine power. They know the abilities Attack Pattern Beta (increases their own damage, and yours, and everybody else), Fire At Will (they can potentially hit up to 6 targets per shot), and Evasive Maneuvers (they like to go fast.)


In vague terms, a single Mesh Weaver is about as strong as 6 Widow fighters.

They are very good pets.

I saw the Mesh Weavers in the D-Store a few weeks back and mistook them has updated widows and did not give them a 2nd look.

Now that I see what Mesh Weavers have to offer I might just have to dust off my Recluse

gavinruneblade

I had been running one widow one mesh weaver. Then I started paying attention. Now, it's two mesh weavers. I can't imagine what they'd have to do to buff the widows enough that I'd ever slot them again.

chalpen

As an engineer in a tholian with two tac console slots and 6 weapons I always seem to do alot better than that same character in a jem dread with 4 console slots and 7 weapons.
In ce or any leader board I always get 1st Place in my recluse but can't even get on the board with my dread.
I have been wracking my brain trying to figure out why.

lordhavelock

momaw wrote: »

...In vague terms, a single Mesh Weaver is about as strong as 6 Widow fighters. They are very good pets.

Really nice review Momaw, thank you. I know the OP is asking about the Tholian Carrier, but would you say your review of fighters vs. frigates, the latter being better, carries over to the Vo'Quv and the Kar'fi? Is it always better to go Frigs over Fighters?

My Vo'Quv recently got two hangar bays of Dilithium Store "Advanced" BoPs, and it feels like they're pretty strong. I think these are only "Blue", are there any better (Purple or Elite) BoPs for the Vo'Quv?

My other toon in a Kar'fi is running one each hanger bay of fighters (can't remember which) and the Fek'ihri frigates (whatever they're called)... Just basic Uncommon-level ones. I'm thinking of going all frigates, but still trying to decide. This toon isn't far from Romulan Rep T5 and Elite Scorpions, and I like the idea of using those (I've a Fed that uses/loves them in her Vesta).

chalpen wrote: »

As an engineer in a tholian with two tac console slots and 6 weapons I always seem to do alot better than that same character in a jem dread with 4 console slots and 7 weapons. In ce or any leader board I always get 1st Place in my recluse but can't even get on the board with my dread. I have been wracking my brain trying to figure out why.

I really like my carrier ships, and I keep trying to decide if I want to invest in a Tholian ship. Do you have your build posted somewhere, or could you post it here, please?

talien

There's really no reason to use Fighters over Frigates unless you're at T5 Romulan rep and want the elite Scorpions, aside from that the Frigates greatly outclass Fighters. The only advantage to using Fighters is they have shorter cooldown, or if you're KDF and want to run advanced Slavers for the occasional bit of EC/Contraband.

madajmama

When i purchased tholian recluse carrier..I loved it.I gaved it to my tactical kdf and i didn't regret it even for a 1 sec.Now with tholian mesh weawers..just wow.It can blow cubes etc stuff in matter of seconds.CE is dead in matter of minutes aswell
(i would like full party of tholian recluse carriers lol)..*cough attack pattern beta IIx4 +myne III cough* pets itself have nice dps aswell..Well its simply amazing ship if u decide to go with tholian mesh weavers u won't have any regrets.Unless ofc they decide to nerf them.lol

mn03

The tholian weavers are epic for AoE damage but less good (compared to elite scorpions) for destroying single targets. I just purchased my first elite weaver and not regretting it

aarons9

talien wrote: »

There's really no reason to use Fighters over Frigates unless you're at T5 Romulan rep and want the elite Scorpions, aside from that the Frigates greatly outclass Fighters. The only advantage to using Fighters is they have shorter cooldown, or if you're KDF and want to run advanced Slavers for the occasional bit of EC/Contraband.

yeah i wish the JH dreadnought that i paid 800 lobi for had the ability to have frigates

but nope.. not unless i buy a 400m attack ship i dont want first..

momaw

lordhavelock wrote: »

would you say your review of fighters vs. frigates, the latter being better, carries over to the Vo'Quv and the Kar'fi? Is it always better to go Frigs over Fighters?

You can't make that ruling so trivially. Somebody brought up Elite Scorpions, which are hands down the best "bomber" type pet available. They do tremendous damage and will utterly annihilate any single target of your choosing if that target is relatively big and slow so that it can be pelted by the heavy plasma torpedo spam. Their torpedoes can redirect in flight, so even if a target is overkilled the torpedo probably won't go to waste, but with the slow torpedo speed and the fact that the torpedoes are proximity-fused, they tend to be.... "messy" when dealing with group combat.

The Bird of Prey pets from the Vo'quv are much tougher than a fighter, but they are also rather clumsy fliers and if left to their own devices will spend much time just buzzing in circles plinking with their turret. They still do way more damage than any fighter except for the Elite Scorpions, in big glorious chunks. With careful micromanagement Birds can be used to deliver precision strikes, doing tens of thousands of damage in one salvo.

The Mesh Weaver frigates do not have the same kind of single-target firepower that either the E.Scorps the Birds do, but they are also extremely agile little buggers that love to spam beams everywhere, leaving APB on enemies. They're the best of the bunch when it comes to group combat, because they can hit a lot of things at once.

Don't have experience with Kar'fi or its pets. Anybody who wants to buy me a Kar'fi to test on is welcome to do so.

Also not tried Advanced Stalkers; it looks like they are quite vicious with their shield-stripped Antiproton Sweep ability. I've love to get those guys under the microscope.

So yeah. Frigate versus fighter isn't really a clear issue. Different pets do different things. The problem with Widows is that they are just terrible. Mesh Weaver frigates are powerful pets, but they can be passed in single-target damage by the E.Scorps. Basically in that case it's "escort frigate" versus "bomber swarm".

bpharma

Yeah tell me about it with the Jem Dread, I really wanted the last set of frigates too. Don't get me started on how much I hate this decision by Cryptic.

Apart from the above I own all the frigates most in the adv form but only the normal mesh weavers I'm afraid.

The Mesh weavers are undeniably powerful and with higher versions of APB they will not only improve your DPS and theirs but also that of everyone in the instance. Imagine a 20 man fleet defence with over half a dozen of these flying around tagging everything with APB3 multiple times? They are good pets that will only get better the more people there are and the more those people are hitting targets tagged by APB.

The adv Fer'Jai frigates are amazing at slight AoE and single target damage due to their tricobalt mines, tricobalt torpedos and other goodies. Also they use aceton beam which weakens the enemy keeping you safer and they seem to spam it a lot. I have never failed to top the leaderboard in Crystalline Entity with these. They do a lot of kinetic damage though so they are best used on unshielded targets.

B'Rolth BoPs (these are the adv BoPs) if you manage them right are just insane. I've seen them overkill spheres in one pass easily on elite difficulty which even a good escort would have trouble topping. They do however need to be sent out as a wing of 4 attacking the same facing and pummeling the target with their CRF and then THY2 quantums (yes THY2 quantums x4 on bare hull) and if you can hit the target with APB then whatever it is will most likely die in one pass.

While I do think the elite Scorpians will atm do more damage, this is only because they are currently the easiest elite level pets to obtain. A fed fleet has reached T5 science and is selling elite pets now so it might be worth waiting for more people to test them or having a look at them yourself. I dare say House of Beautiful Orions will be hitting T5 science soon too and will no doubt be offering their stores to people in which case I would say Elite Mesh weavers, BoPs and Fer'Jai frigates will be some of the most powerful pets around, easily equal to a good escort or two.

Also worth noting someone mentioned BoPs tend to circle targets more using their turrets, that WAS true. The AI has since been improved (not great mind) and they now circle the target facing it somehow. This improves their damage but they're not getting the big hits they should be getting by recalling and sending out as a wing, then recalling etc.

chalpen

lordhavelock wrote: »

Really nice review Momaw, thank you. I know the OP is asking about the Tholian Carrier, but would you say your review of fighters vs. frigates, the latter being better, carries over to the Vo'Quv and the Kar'fi? Is it always better to go Frigs over Fighters?

My Vo'Quv recently got two hangar bays of Dilithium Store "Advanced" BoPs, and it feels like they're pretty strong. I think these are only "Blue", are there any better (Purple or Elite) BoPs for the Vo'Quv?

My other toon in a Kar'fi is running one each hanger bay of fighters (can't remember which) and the Fek'ihri frigates (whatever they're called)... Just basic Uncommon-level ones. I'm thinking of going all frigates, but still trying to decide. This toon isn't far from Romulan Rep T5 and Elite Scorpions, and I like the idea of using those (I've a Fed that uses/loves them in her Vesta).

I really like my carrier ships, and I keep trying to decide if I want to invest in a Tholian ship. Do you have your build posted somewhere, or could you post it here, please?

4 Antiproton beams. Omega beam omega torp.Khg set.
2 tac con.
1shield/rom plasma/omega/isometric charge
Turn/disrupter turret/plasmonic leech/aceton
Slaver/weaver
Tac= tac team
Uni= torpspread/faw/apo1/apo2
Sci=ph/he/sci team
Sci=tractor beam

lordhavelock

momaw wrote: »

You can't make that ruling so trivially... Frigate versus fighter isn't really a clear issue. Different pets do different things... Mesh Weaver frigates are powerful pets, but they can be passed in single-target damage by the E.Scorps. Basically in that case it's "escort frigate" versus "bomber swarm".

Again, I thank you for your detailed analysis!

I kind of think what I would do, then is run one BoP hangar, and one EScorp hangar. Sort of a "best of both worlds" setup... I'll give that a try, anyway.

bpharma wrote: »

...Also worth noting someone mentioned BoPs tend to circle targets more using their turrets, that WAS true. The AI has since been improved (not great mind) and they now circle the target facing it somehow. This improves their damage but they're not getting the big hits they should be getting by recalling and sending out as a wing, then recalling etc.

Thank you too, for your additional info. Specifically your info on how to control the BoPs. I often forget the Attack, Intercept, Recall, etc. buttons are even there. lol

chalpen wrote: »

>build<

Awesome, thank you! I notice you go with two APOs. I was under the impression APB was better for group play because in helped everyone, including your pets. Thinking about it, I assume you're going with APO because your pets provide the APB, plus you get a self dmg buff, speed/turn buff (helpful in hulking carriers) and TB/root resistance, to boot. Is this a good assumption, or is there more to it?