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New EPTx version (4.14.2013) Forces Cruisers into EPTS 1

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  • ussultimatumussultimatum Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    red01999 wrote: »
    At this point I think that the best hope we've got is massive backlash after LoR comes out when thousands of people realize their ships don't work right anymore and end up splattered.

    Basically, yes.

    I'd love for Dev input, but as another poster has said they have gone silent on the issue.

    This thread has over 4000 views, and over 100 replies.

    It's most certainly noticeable. Whether they want to, or have the time to address it is another matter entirely.


    Try to look at this from the dev's POV. All other Eng skills were relegated to niche skills by the fact that EVERYONE uses EptS. That makes EptS OP.
    Really? did you actually read the full description of the changes? EPtW is a lot better than it used to be.

    Yes really.

    There are a bunch of posters, that don't really have a firm grasp of mechanics.

    EPTW is better than it was, so is EPTA and EPTE.


    However at the same time using them is now a survivability detriment, particularly in PvP.


    So they are working at cross purposes, attempting to make those more useful and "competitive" choices.

    Nothing is as competitive as base survivability, without which you can not actually use the others.

    Primarily hurt by this change will be Cruisers, a ship class that really should not need to make "hard decisions" in the area of Engineering skills - which to be frank is a convoluted mess of shared cooldowns and a dearth of real, functionally valuable options.
  • stirling191stirling191 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    Really? did you actually read the full description of the changes? EPtW is a lot better than it used to be.

    And it's still an EPtX power. An EPtX power being less useless in no way makes the mess of non-EPtX Engineering powers less terrible.

    If you want to get hyper-specific about specific EPtX powers, yes EPtA, EPtW and EPtE are actually appealing now. I'm not, and never have been, arguing that they aren't.
  • wrathofachilleswrathofachilles Member Posts: 937 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    momaw wrote: »
    New ETPW will be used by escorts because it was implemented incorrectly as a damage bonus instead of correctly as a drain resistance. Escorts will use it to increase the spike of their spikes and kill enemies before survivability becomes a problem. Cruisers need the survivability of EPTS because they can't rely on speed tanking and must absorb incoming damage. They are endurance fighters, and EPTS provides endurance.

    Give cruisers an innate 30% shield hardness bonus that corresponds to the escort's 10% chance to completely dodge, and then cruisers might have some freedom to choose anything other than EPTS.

    One could consider it a "resist" to drain in that if you were at 100 power (actual level, not setting) and you fire your weapons and it takes you down to 80, if you hit emergency power to weapons, it bumps you up to 125 and now when your weapons fire they come down to 100 so... yeah, if you look at it that way, lol.

    Regardless of that, even with emergency power to weapons, a cruiser probably won't be able to do enough damage that it would be worth the drop in survivability from losing emergency power to shields, so that is still the best option of them all. However, I feel much better about the idea of throwing in an emergency power to other things other than shields, particularly down in the ensign ranks where there's pretty much nada so that I can situationally have them available... emergency power to engines could be beneficial now and then, emergency power to weapons could be used against enemies that don't pose enough of a threat for emergency power to shields to be in dire need.
  • skyranger1414skyranger1414 Member Posts: 1,785 Arc User
    edited April 2013

    Try to look at this from the dev's POV. All other Eng skills were relegated to niche skills by the fact that EVERYONE uses EptS. That makes EptS OP.

    These changes STILL make EPtS the best option, except now you feel cheated out of the other EPtX abilities. And survival will almost always be the preferred choice for players, that's just how we're wired, so why make us grumble needlesly by improving the other EPtX and then not letting us use them?
  • dalnar83dalnar83 Member Posts: 2,420 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    These changes STILL make EPtS the best option, except now you feel cheated out of the other EPtX abilities. And survival will almost always be the preferred choice for players, that's just how we're wired, so why make us grumble needlesly by improving the other EPtX and then not letting us use them?

    I feel the best option will be to run with EpTE atm. But time will show. But i guess it boils down to playstyle and type of gameplay.
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  • red01999red01999 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    dalnar83 wrote: »
    I feel the best option will be to run with EpTE atm. But time will show. But i guess it boils down to playstyle and type of gameplay.

    Playstyle is probably one of the core issues here - it seems to render some playstyles impractical at best, if not near-impossible. Mine, for instance, is to use a cruiser to get in close and slug it out in general (although with ESTFs sometimes distance is quite preferable, I'm looking at YOU transwarp gates).

    I'm HOPING that all of this is not taking into account some new mechanics which remain unannounced and for some reason have not been rolled out to shut us up until they're in, but at this point I'm not optimistic. Someone on DOFFJOBS channel suggested a possible use of the warp core mechanic to ease our woes here, but I don't know about that, I'll be doing some more research on warp cores because of this.
  • dalnar83dalnar83 Member Posts: 2,420 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    Well of course my experience is limited by tribble. I tried G-R with EptE + AtD combo. I could move at 100 impulse speed pretty much 80% of the time, with close to 200 spikes with evasive action. So the mobility potential for cruisers is great atm.

    It's something new and somewhat refreshing - for a cruiser so I will think about it. On the other hand, my Steamrunner works even better with it :rolleyes: Especially with APO added to the mix.

    Still I'm not exactly sure what to think about these EP changes, but i heard it's just part of large chain of changes, so I'm naturally curious.
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  • wrathofachilleswrathofachilles Member Posts: 937 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    dalnar83 wrote: »
    Still I'm not exactly sure what to think about these EP changes, but i heard it's just part of large chain of changes, so I'm naturally curious.

    Perhaps they are intentionally provoking us so that when they reveal the rest we will be elated? lol.
  • momawmomaw Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    momaw wrote: »
    New ETPW will be used by escorts because it was implemented incorrectly as a damage bonus instead of correctly as a drain resistance. Escorts will use it to increase the spike of their spikes and kill enemies before survivability becomes a problem.
    One could consider it a "resist" to drain in that if you were at 100 power (actual level, not setting) and you fire your weapons and it takes you down to 80, if you hit emergency power to weapons, it bumps you up to 125 and now when your weapons fire they come down to 100 so... yeah, if you look at it that way, lol.

    *shakes head*

    No, what really happens is this: The escort sets their weapon power to 100, and then their various bonuses carry it to over 125. Because dual heavy cannons do not have significant power problems, their power level will stay high while firing. Adding EPTW1's +15 to +20 will peg their level right to 125, which makes the 20% damage at least the equivalent of a power level of 135 and possibly quite a lot more depending on how the math works.

    Escorts don't have problems with weapon power or damage output. Implementing EPTW as a damage buff allows them to exceed the cap on power. Implementing EPTW as a resistance to drain allows ships to get closer to the cap on power without exceeding it.
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,236 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    These changes STILL make EPtS the best option, except now you feel cheated out of the other EPtX abilities. And survival will almost always be the preferred choice for players, that's just how we're wired, so why make us grumble needlesly by improving the other EPtX and then not letting us use them?
    So.... you feel that rebalancing the skills so that EptS is less OP is bad? Uh, I don't get it. You can use whatever skill you want. Except that you apparently don't WANT to use others....
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  • ussultimatumussultimatum Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    So.... you feel that rebalancing the skills so that EptS is less OP is bad?

    I think you are misunderstanding the new mechanics.

    Yes, there is a small gap with EPTS x 2.

    There is a larger gap, if you attempt to use multiple EPTx powers in cycles.


    EPTS is now on a shorter cooldown, which means the healing component is available more frequently.

    The overall change being made to EPTS is minimal, the bonuses to the other powers are good but they are not as good as having a smaller gap in protection.
  • gralerongraleron Member Posts: 221 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    So.... you feel that rebalancing the skills so that EptS is less OP is bad? Uh, I don't get it. You can use whatever skill you want. Except that you apparently don't WANT to use others....

    In general, there are no objections to Emergency Power powers being given some better balance.

    The problem is that the changes to the timings bring new problems with Engineer bridge officer power selection, especially at Ensign level. The upshot of these changes is that cruisers--the ship class that a majority feel could do with a boost--gets a nerf.
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  • red01999red01999 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    Perhaps they are intentionally provoking us so that when they reveal the rest we will be elated? lol.

    If that's their strategy, it's probably going to work on me.

    It is, in fact, a massive problem that nobody is telling us ANYTHING about these changes. For all we know they're going to have cruiser weapons do half damage so "escorts don't feel underpowered" or something.

    The fact that the changes, even if awesome, might not show up for 6-9 months, doesn't help, either - I doubt people whose ships have been ruined are going to come back in droves in 6 months. I doubt they'll come back in 6 weeks, for that matter. I think community goodwill would be improved a great deal if they'd actually talk about what they have in mind. Then again, it may be horrid for anyone not in an escort, and they'll just ram it through anyway, so they're not going to bother telling us.
  • tc10btc10b Member Posts: 1,549 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    Well now my Damage Control Engineers and Emergency Power To Engines 1 and Emergency Power to Shields 3 may as well be gone.

    I get it, two copies of Empts is OP in PvP. Increase the Duplicate power cooldown if it's such a problem, but I would rather be able to cycle powers on my cruisers, and this looks to be even more imporant on Warbirds since they have such low power to begin with.

    In effect instead of making Emergency Powers more useful, you've made them less attractive. What's the point in that?
  • wrathofachilleswrathofachilles Member Posts: 937 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    red01999 wrote: »
    If that's their strategy, it's probably going to work on me.

    It is, in fact, a massive problem that nobody is telling us ANYTHING about these changes. For all we know they're going to have cruiser weapons do half damage so "escorts don't feel underpowered" or something.

    The fact that the changes, even if awesome, might not show up for 6-9 months, doesn't help, either - I doubt people whose ships have been ruined are going to come back in droves in 6 months. I doubt they'll come back in 6 weeks, for that matter. I think community goodwill would be improved a great deal if they'd actually talk about what they have in mind. Then again, it may be horrid for anyone not in an escort, and they'll just ram it through anyway, so they're not going to bother telling us.

    It certainly would be nice if they would share with us the rest of the plan if there is one, but I'm sure they may hesitate to do that as exposing their plan could have everyone up in arms (more so than they already are) and that could derail it. For all we know, cruisers and sci vessels could be getting a much needed revamp and they are hiding that so the escorts won't go nuts. Or maybe they think it will work really well in practice but that it will come across horrible on paper to us, so they're waiting to implement it all at once to show us how it works as a whole. That or they have a plan and they're only getting it done a piece at a time. Two pitfalls to navigate here, giving us one piece to the puzzle a little at a time can cause outrage, each piece could totally disrupt our current picture, and the outrage derails the whole project. Or... keep quite and get everything ready to present it as a whole... and deal with all the rage about nothing being done because they aren't giving us anything.

    It would be really interesting if they would give us a peek into their world, show us the systems they work in and explain to us what they have to go through to put in a new skill or modify the way a skill works. Perhaps then we would be more understanding of their situation, cause I think most of us are under the impression that "It's not that hard, go in and type a different number for that value, and voila!" Or what exactly they have to go through to put in a new ship or a new episode. Cryptic: behind the scenes of STO! I think I smell a web series... eh? eh? probably not, lol.
  • red01999red01999 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    Or maybe they think it will work really well in practice but that it will come across horrible on paper to us, so they're waiting to implement it all at once to show us how it works as a whole.

    Yeah, that's the problem - if their plan is along these lines it only works as a whole, so putting out the most anger-provoking part of the change without so much as a word beyond that other than "more changes coming" is unwise at best. Especially since a lot of cruiser fans already feel put out, and likely with good reason. It could be that they want cruisers to be tank-healers so badly they feel that "balance" is only served by essentially making them useless in any other role - and only dubiously effective (at best) in their official role.

    I am not optimistic for the remainder of the changes, though I'm very much hoping I'm wrong here.
  • cha0s1428cha0s1428 Member Posts: 416 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    red01999 wrote: »
    Yeah, that's the problem - if their plan is along these lines it only works as a whole, so putting out the most anger-provoking part of the change without so much as a word beyond that other than "more changes coming" is unwise at best. Especially since a lot of cruiser fans already feel put out, and likely with good reason. It could be that they want cruisers to be tank-healers so badly they feel that "balance" is only served by essentially making them useless in any other role - and only dubiously effective (at best) in their official role.

    I am not optimistic for the remainder of the changes, though I'm very much hoping I'm wrong here.

    Thing is, we haven't even gotten a "more changes coming" from them. We have had to peice together bits of "he said, she said" to get even that.

    Its a horrid change, its an unfair change. They have lost my business, not just because of the change, but the constant lack of explanation.

    Most people are just assuming at this point that with every change, they are buffing escorts because they play them. I tend to think this is just BS. However when every change they seem to make lately does in fact favor escorts, and they don't say anything otherwise, what are the people supposed to think? Especially when this change was made under false understanding of the mechanic of EPtX.
  • wrathofachilleswrathofachilles Member Posts: 937 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    red01999 wrote: »
    Yeah, that's the problem - if their plan is along these lines it only works as a whole, so putting out the most anger-provoking part of the change without so much as a word beyond that other than "more changes coming" is unwise at best. Especially since a lot of cruiser fans already feel put out, and likely with good reason. It could be that they want cruisers to be tank-healers so badly they feel that "balance" is only served by essentially making them useless in any other role - and only dubiously effective (at best) in their official role.

    I am not optimistic for the remainder of the changes, though I'm very much hoping I'm wrong here.

    I really like that they have implemented some changes that will allow cruiser to turn better, and I believe there are some other changes that are waiting for the next patch that would further improve it... that is, if you invest into it. e.g. starship impulse thrusters, turn modifiers on engines, rcs. So greater returns if you invest into a better turn rate could go a long way to making cruisers better. That has always been one of my biggest issues, you cant turn, so you can't keep the enemy in your best arcs, or easily turn for a torpedo spread from a broadside and then back into your broadside in a timely manner, nor can you turn to give your opponent a stronger shield facing to chew on while you collect yourself/wait for a cooldown/whatever. Well... regardless, let's cross our fingers and hope for the best.
  • wrathofachilleswrathofachilles Member Posts: 937 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    cha0s1428 wrote: »
    Thing is, we haven't even gotten a "more changes coming" from them. We have had to peice together bits of "he said, she said" to get even that.

    Its a horrid change, its an unfair change. They have lost my business, not just because of the change, but the constant lack of explanation.

    Most people are just assuming at this point that with every change, they are buffing escorts because they play them. I tend to think this is just BS. However when every change they seem to make lately does in fact favor escorts, and they don't say anything otherwise, what are the people supposed to think? Especially when this change was made under false understanding of the mechanic of EPtX.

    I'm not sure it was a false understanding of the mechanic of emergency powers... They may be well aware of the intention of that.. stix? was it? who made the rules on them... and maybe they've decided they want to take them in a different direction regardless of that. But I do agree that it would be nice to know if there is a grand plan and this is just the first step or... what exactly... or why. But I'm sure for them, it can easily become tedious to be explaining themselves all the time. Perhaps they need to hire someone who's job is solely to interact with the players, blogging/posting on the forums all day answering questions, investigating what's going on... "handling" us, lol.
  • cha0s1428cha0s1428 Member Posts: 416 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    I'm not sure it was a false understanding of the mechanic of emergency powers... They may be well aware of the intention of that.. stix? was it? who made the rules on them... and maybe they've decided they want to take them in a different direction regardless of that. But I do agree that it would be nice to know if there is a grand plan and this is just the first step or... what exactly... or why. But I'm sure for them, it can easily become tedious to be explaining themselves all the time. Perhaps they need to hire someone who's job is solely to interact with the players, blogging/posting on the forums all day answering questions, investigating what's going on... "handling" us, lol.

    Well when they first introduced the change hawk explained that the current gap in cycling powers was only being increased slightly. He posted his concept of power cycling and he was flat out wrong on what he thought the cooldowns were. Many people pointed this out to him and then we never heard anything about these changes again.

    And they do have a guy for that. Branflakes.
  • wrathofachilleswrathofachilles Member Posts: 937 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    cha0s1428 wrote: »
    Well when they first introduced the change hawk explained that the current gap in cycling powers was only being increased slightly. He posted his concept of power cycling and he was flat out wrong on what he thought the cooldowns were. Many people pointed this out to him and then we never heard anything about these changes again.

    And they do have a guy for that. Branflakes.

    Well I'm not sure why they wouldn't correct the issue or speak of it if the powers weren't working out the way they intended.

    I hardly ever see any posts from branflakes on the forums... maybe I just don't look in the right places, but if he's as non-present as my experience on the forums indicates, I meant someone far more active and engaged.
  • cha0s1428cha0s1428 Member Posts: 416 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    Well I'm not sure why they wouldn't correct the issue or speak of it if the powers weren't working out the way they intended.

    I hardly ever see any posts from branflakes on the forums... maybe I just don't look in the right places, but if he's as non-present as my experience on the forums indicates, I meant someone far more active and engaged.

    Exactly. Now perhaps you see why everyone is so angry about this. They made some changes to a core mechanic of the game without actually knowing how it worked or why it was a core mechanic. We pointed out the problem to them, and they remain silent with all indicators pointing to the change going forward. They did change it a bitn but it only made the problem worse. What do we get? Silence. No indication that they understand the impact, no indication that they care.

    We all know that LoR takes priority right now, and that's fine. But don't make such a sweeping change like this, and then ignore it for the next year while you fiddle with LoR, leaving cruisers holding the bag
  • hroothvitnirhroothvitnir Member Posts: 322
    edited April 2013
    Unfortunately cruisers holding the bag is becoming a running gag now.
    At least FAW got a fix they aren't so horrible crippled vs escorts now that there is a chance to hit without resorting to tractor beams.

    That being said I bet the light raptors with the tier 5 skill are gonna alpha like nothing before seen. So gaps in shields are gonna be very useful, for escorts.
  • cha0s1428cha0s1428 Member Posts: 416 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    Unfortunately cruisers holding the bag is becoming a running gag now.
    At least FAW got a fix they aren't so horrible crippled vs escorts now that there is a chance to hit without resorting to tractor beams.

    That being said I bet the light raptors with the tier 5 skill are gonna alpha like nothing before seen. So gaps in shields are gonna be very useful, for escorts.

    Yep and given how much money I have spent on cruisers, its hard to find any reason to give them any more for more sub par cruisers with LoR. At least escorts get some fun variety!

    Just waiting for LoR release to see what stays to decide when/if my eng goes out the airlock. Along with my interest.
  • skyranger1414skyranger1414 Member Posts: 1,785 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    dalnar83 wrote: »
    I feel the best option will be to run with EpTE atm. But time will show. But i guess it boils down to playstyle and type of gameplay.

    I can see that becoming the standard, it will all really depend on how well it adds survivability and how annoying it can get to be too zippy.
  • khayuungkhayuung Member Posts: 1,876 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    So just what is going on with EPtX?

    Are we down to 45s, 20s uptime, with a cycle gap of 5s running 2 copies, and a 10s system cooldown? Or something worse?


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  • cha0s1428cha0s1428 Member Posts: 416 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    khayuung wrote: »
    So just what is going on with EPtX?

    Are we down to 45s, 20s uptime, with a cycle gap of 5s running 2 copies, and a 10s system cooldown? Or something worse?


    2x EPtX: for every 80s of uptime, there is 5s of downtime
    1x EPtX: for every 80s of uptime, there is 75s of downtime
    EPtX/EPtY: for every 80s of uptime for each, there is between 30s-75s of downtime

    Which means cruisers can no longer juggle 2 different Emergency powers, and anyone running 2 copies of EPtS gets a heal every 20 seconds rather than 30. Escorts become even more powerful, and cruisers lose 2 ensign slots or higher tier tanking ability.
  • khayuungkhayuung Member Posts: 1,876 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    ...that's just TERRIBLE. :/ Man, this is pretty much turning all cruisers into Aux2batt ships...


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  • cha0s1428cha0s1428 Member Posts: 416 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    khayuung wrote: »
    ...that's just TERRIBLE. :/ Man, this is pretty much turning all cruisers into Aux2batt ships...

    Oh don't worry, there is word that Aux2Batt is getting nerfed too
  • khayuungkhayuung Member Posts: 1,876 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    cha0s1428 wrote: »
    Oh don't worry, there is word that Aux2Batt is getting nerfed too

    I'm pretty sure that rumor got squashed some time ago. ^^;


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