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I'm going to post this again -- GCD on team abilities is out of whack
hurleybird
Member Posts: 909
As it stands now, team abilities (science team, engineering team, tactical team) are all limited by the same 15s GCD. This runs contrary to how most other families of skills work in the game -- where running two copies of the same skill imparts a larger GCD than skills that are merely related.
For example, Target Subsystems X will put another copy of Target Subsystems X onto a 30 second global. However, it will only put Target Subsystems Y on a 15 second global.
Emergency Power is in flux on tribble at the moment, but currently EPtX puts another copy of EPtX onto a 30 second global. However, it only puts EPtY on a 15 second global. No matter how the cards fall on this power, it will most likely come to rest on some variation of this mechanic.
Team abilities on the other hand put each other on a 15 second GCD. Doesn't matter if you're running two copies or tactical team, or one copy each of science and engineering team -- you're always limited by the same 15s global. This has very negative gameplay consequences.
Mainly, it artificially increases the gap between premade and pug players. Premade players are free to min/max into carrying two copies of their preferred team ability, as they can count on team support. Pug players feel obligated to take one copy of each team ability, as they cannot count on team support to clear a multitude of debuffs that amount to little more than a death penalty if left unchecked.
As a pug player:
Hence as a pug you feel pressure to take one of each team ability despite the fact that you are "wasting" one slot (three 30s cooldown abilities with a 15s global between all three means you can at most attain 2/3 benefit). At the very least you want to take both a science team and tactical team, and even then using one of them leaves you vulnerable for 15 seconds against debuffs that are cleared by the other. A premade player only needs to take two copies of the same team ability, min/max into it, and have everyone share their copies of tac/eng/sci team among the rest. It's an infinitely more efficient and effective way to go about things.
My solution is to lower the GCD on differing team abilities from 15 seconds to 10 seconds.
Thus, a tactical team would still put another tactical team on a 15 second GCD, but a science or engineering team on a 10 second GCD. This also means that you could perfectly chain one copy of each team ability, casting one every 10 seconds. Therefore, as a pug you would not need to feel so much like you are "wasting a slot" to become self reliant with clears. This change will not benefit premades, as a 10 second GCD still makes it more effective to min/max into only one type of team ability per player in almost all situations. For the same reason, this change will not make healing more powerful, except to those who need it the most. This change will not decrease depth, and in fact may increase it by creating a greater variety in viable builds.
Is this going to put pugs on equal footing with premades as far as clears are concerned? No. But it will move things a lot closer together. This is extremely low hanging fruit and Cryptic would do well to reach for it. For far less work than the EPtX change is going to take, you could institute a change that only has positive balance ramifications across the board.
Because I know you're eventually going to stumble across this -- Bort, can I get your honest feedback on this proposed change?
For example, Target Subsystems X will put another copy of Target Subsystems X onto a 30 second global. However, it will only put Target Subsystems Y on a 15 second global.
Emergency Power is in flux on tribble at the moment, but currently EPtX puts another copy of EPtX onto a 30 second global. However, it only puts EPtY on a 15 second global. No matter how the cards fall on this power, it will most likely come to rest on some variation of this mechanic.
Team abilities on the other hand put each other on a 15 second GCD. Doesn't matter if you're running two copies or tactical team, or one copy each of science and engineering team -- you're always limited by the same 15s global. This has very negative gameplay consequences.
Mainly, it artificially increases the gap between premade and pug players. Premade players are free to min/max into carrying two copies of their preferred team ability, as they can count on team support. Pug players feel obligated to take one copy of each team ability, as they cannot count on team support to clear a multitude of debuffs that amount to little more than a death penalty if left unchecked.
As a pug player:
- If you are taking focus fire with FoMM and beta applied without a tactical team to clear it and redistribute shields, you are dead.
- If you are hit by a boarding party without a tac team, you are also dead.
- Hit with GPG without an eng team, and you're dead if the other side focuses you.
- Hit with doff boosted VM without eng team to clear it, you are likely dead as well.
- Hit with subnuke and scan without a science team to clear it, and you are most certainly dead.
Hence as a pug you feel pressure to take one of each team ability despite the fact that you are "wasting" one slot (three 30s cooldown abilities with a 15s global between all three means you can at most attain 2/3 benefit). At the very least you want to take both a science team and tactical team, and even then using one of them leaves you vulnerable for 15 seconds against debuffs that are cleared by the other. A premade player only needs to take two copies of the same team ability, min/max into it, and have everyone share their copies of tac/eng/sci team among the rest. It's an infinitely more efficient and effective way to go about things.
My solution is to lower the GCD on differing team abilities from 15 seconds to 10 seconds.
Thus, a tactical team would still put another tactical team on a 15 second GCD, but a science or engineering team on a 10 second GCD. This also means that you could perfectly chain one copy of each team ability, casting one every 10 seconds. Therefore, as a pug you would not need to feel so much like you are "wasting a slot" to become self reliant with clears. This change will not benefit premades, as a 10 second GCD still makes it more effective to min/max into only one type of team ability per player in almost all situations. For the same reason, this change will not make healing more powerful, except to those who need it the most. This change will not decrease depth, and in fact may increase it by creating a greater variety in viable builds.
Is this going to put pugs on equal footing with premades as far as clears are concerned? No. But it will move things a lot closer together. This is extremely low hanging fruit and Cryptic would do well to reach for it. For far less work than the EPtX change is going to take, you could institute a change that only has positive balance ramifications across the board.
Because I know you're eventually going to stumble across this -- Bort, can I get your honest feedback on this proposed change?
Behold, The Jorf Guide
Post edited by hurleybird on
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Otherwise, cruisers are basically completely unable to use anything other than EPTS1. The higher level abilities simply result in two or even three unusable ensign powers, because the Engineering Boff Power section has precisely two options: EPTx and ET. You can only pick 1 type of EPTx, and for cruisers, that has to be EPTS, or you explode instantly, as you cannot run or dodge. In fact, any EPTxN, where N > 1, is now unusable, because WHAT THE HELL DO YOU DO WITH YOUR ENGINEERING ENSIGNS? Other than EPTx, the only other option is ET!
[Kluless][Kold][Steel Heels][Snagtooth]
[Louis Cipher][Outta Gum][Thysa Kymbo][Spanner][Frakk]
[D'Mented][D'Licious]
Joined October 2009. READ BEFORE POSTING
great proposal, and i believe it would help gameplay for all.
have fun kill bad guys
for the same reason EPtS needs a CRF size hole in its coverage now
Silly people.
No shared GCD at all would result in a massive increase in healing power. Imagine a team with three healers that all have two copies of tac team, two copies of engineering team, and two copies of science team, being free to spam them whenever they wanted. Not only would removing the shared GCD completely break balance, it would also increase the gap between premades and pugs (making it impossible for a good pug team to ever get a kill against even an average premade) and decrease depth -- every single team member would equip two tactical teams, defeating the need to send them as cross heals.
Simply put, 0s GCD would be a disaster, bordering on the single worst change Cryptic could possibly make.
5s GCD is still a bad idea. On my double sci team healer for example, I would then be able to carry two tactical teams and fire them off five seconds after I cast my science teams without degrading the uptime of my science teams one bit.
10s GCD is harmless. It helps pugs out, gives better balance, and has no possibility of incurring negative balance implications or massive healing power creep. On my premade healer I can't take two copies of science and tactical team without the GCD getting in the way too much to be worth it. Pug guys who feel obligated to carry one of each team, or even two different team abilities, benefit.
And maybe someday STO will figure out what a GCD really is. It is sorta funny to read though.
And it wouldn't be more effective to min/max into one ability for a team. Assuming I understand the ****ed up way your using min/max. Little bit of a flaw in your reasoning there.
Hey keep plugging away though.
Sci and engy team 2 and 3 have nice healz, try specing into them and using an emitter console and sif console or 2.
This is a perception issue.
It also touches on what the OP is getting at.
Premade healers will most certainly be slotting ST 2/3 or ET 2/3.
They are massive heals, with important cleanses and with DOFFs can be reduced to 15s CDs.
It's usually PUG PvP where people don't often see the value of ET or ST beyond their cleanses, but it's also in PUG PvP where people think a Tac Captain is a stronger choice than a Sci Captain (which is not true).
I'd personally say ET is mostly valuable for its cleanse and not even for the hull heal, im not convinced its worth putting your Sci team/Tacteam on cooldown for, unless its to fix someones shield proc or viral etc.
For pure instant hull heals with resistance on top of that, Aux2sif3 = master
Wrong thread, please delete.
I'm not sure both can be true. If pugs have problems with cross-healling and coordination, then 0 second cooldowns help them more than 10 second cooldowns.
[Kluless][Kold][Steel Heels][Snagtooth]
[Louis Cipher][Outta Gum][Thysa Kymbo][Spanner][Frakk]
[D'Mented][D'Licious]
Joined October 2009. READ BEFORE POSTING
0 second cooldowns would massively increase the amount of healing that a premade team could bring to bear, making kills all but impossible to attain against them without gargantuan coordinated spike and debuffs, as well as lightning quick target switching. This easily outweighs the benefit pugs would get from easier clears. Remove the shared cooldown altogether and even a very good pug will flail hopelessly against an average premade. It would also threaten to turn premade matches into boring, several hour long affairs.
10s is the sweet spot where you still help pugs out quite a bit and premade players receive minimal benefit.
Not if the cooldowns of each single team ability is simply increased, or the healing of Sciteam/ET decreased
I agree with this. Its not as if all teams are drawing personel ftom the pool.
R.I.P
Sorry, can't fit all of the teams into the elevators at once.
The trick is to use ET first and let them build a bigger elevator. Tell them that the ST guys laugh at them and say E is not a really important in comparison to the Sciences.
You know, the Sheldon manuever.
R.I.P
>>>(its impossible to type that phrase in French as well)
Laissez rouler les bon-temps!
[Kluless][Kold][Steel Heels][Snagtooth]
[Louis Cipher][Outta Gum][Thysa Kymbo][Spanner][Frakk]
[D'Mented][D'Licious]
Joined October 2009. READ BEFORE POSTING
R.I.P
Like always, mkaes a statement without any logical explanation behind it. Bit like your CRTD thread. Flawed from begining to end.
Enlightening as always...... Coming from a guy who always plays as a team member. Oh wait, you hardly ever. You should go back to what your good at. Noob stomping.
Seems very efficient in my eyes to min max that way.
Where is this guy anyway I never ever see him play, oh wait i never do CnLulz
Agreed. 0s GCD also means that Aux2Bat builds can run 1 copy of each team and recast all 3 of them every 10 seconds. There'd be no gaps in between shield heal/distribution, and hull heal. Not to mention 100% up time immunity to half of all other Boff abilities (APB, FoMM, Boarding Party, SubNuke, Viral Matrix, etc.) from these three abilities alone. :eek:
Now factor in the damage resistance from some common abilities such as EPtS and more common counters to any other crowd control such as PH or HE and perhaps APO. That ship would be a nightmare to fight.
All hands! Prepare the popcorn and tinfoil hats!