I've always really liked romulans, but I'm liking what cryptic's doing with them less and less. From what I'm reading, the romulan faction is going to be D'Tan's peace-loving, epohh-hugging, vulcan-wannabe romulans. You can "ally" with the feds or the klingons, but the romulan playable faction as a whole seems like the federation redone in shades of green. And that's just monumentally disappointing.
Romulans are all about deceit, treachery, and Machiavellian schemes. That's what I want to play. I want the romulan star empire and the tal'shiar. I don't want this hippy-esque group of failures.
I've always really liked romulans, but I'm liking what cryptic's doing with them less and less. From what I'm reading, the romulan faction is going to be D'Tan's peace-loving, epohh-hugging, vulcan-wannabe romulans. You can "ally" with the feds or the klingons, but the romulan playable faction as a whole seems like the federation redone in shades of green. And that's just monumentally disappointing.
Romulans are all about deceit, treachery, and Machiavellian schemes. That's what I want to play. I want the romulan star empire and the tal'shiar. I don't want this hippy-esque group of failures.
They are actually comparing them to the Bajorans now. Because apparently when people said they wanted a Romulan faction, Cryptic naturally assumed they wanted Bajorans with pointy ears.
I'm sure this is to boost the mass-market appeal of the faction (they even said as much in the interview) To target people who merely like the Romulan Ship designs but feel too squeemish about playing a real Romulan, no doubt.
They are horribly mutilating everything that fans of the Romulans from the show liked about them, however.
I've always really liked romulans, but I'm liking what cryptic's doing with them less and less. From what I'm reading, the romulan faction is going to be D'Tan's peace-loving, epohh-hugging, vulcan-wannabe romulans. You can "ally" with the feds or the klingons, but the romulan playable faction as a whole seems like the federation redone in shades of green. And that's just monumentally disappointing.
Romulans are all about deceit, treachery, and Machiavellian schemes. That's what I want to play. I want the romulan star empire and the tal'shiar. I don't want this hippy-esque group of failures.
They are actually comparing them to the Bajorans now. Because apparently when people said they wanted a Romulan faction, Cryptic naturally assumed they wanted Bajorans with pointy ears.
I'm sure this is to boost the mass-market appeal of the faction (they even said as much in the interview) To target people who merely like the Romulan Ship designs but feel too squeemish about playing a real Romulan, no doubt.
They are horribly mutilating everything that fans of the Romulans from the show liked about them, however.
STO's story line is an extension of what happened to the canon Romulans and Spock. The Romulan Empire, as we know it from the TNG era, stopped existing, and has been embroiled in numbers power-grabs for years, so yes, Romulans are now refugee colonists rather then a consolidated Empire. It's not as if that's new news. We've known that since we first entered the Romulan Zones at launch - and it was reiterated in the Reman FEs.
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
They are actually comparing them to the Bajorans now. Because apparently when people said they wanted a Romulan faction, Cryptic naturally assumed they wanted Bajorans with pointy ears.
I'm sure this is to boost the mass-market appeal of the faction (they even said as much in the interview) To target people who merely like the Romulan Ship designs but feel too squeemish about playing a real Romulan, no doubt.
They are horribly mutilating everything that fans of the Romulans from the show liked about them, however.
STO's story line is an extension of what happened to the canon Romulans and Spock. The Romulan Empire, as we know it from the TNG era, stopped existing, and has been embroiled in numbers power-grabs for years, so yes, Romulans are now refugee colonists rather then a consolidated Empire. It's not as if that's new news. We've known that since we first entered the Romulan Zones at launch - and it was reiterated in the Reman FEs.
It seems some people didn't learn anything from Star Trek VI.
I've always really liked romulans, but I'm liking what cryptic's doing with them less and less. From what I'm reading, the romulan faction is going to be D'Tan's peace-loving, epohh-hugging, vulcan-wannabe romulans. You can "ally" with the feds or the klingons, but the romulan playable faction as a whole seems like the federation redone in shades of green. And that's just monumentally disappointing.
Romulans are all about deceit, treachery, and Machiavellian schemes. That's what I want to play. I want the romulan star empire and the tal'shiar. I don't want this hippy-esque group of failures.
Actually, if you think about it, Romulans are supposed to be all about passion. What's more passionate than a rebel?
If you actually bothered to read my replies, you'd know that is in no way applicable, and I have explained my position numerous enough times already.
But you have already self-admitted that you ignore anything I write on this subject, so nothing you have to say on this matter is of any consequence or importance. Get back to me when you actually bother to read what I write on the matter and show that you are capable of understanding it or replying to it in an honest manner.
At least you aren't accusing me of beign racist this time, lol.
It seems some people didn't learn anything from Star Trek VI.
Oh, you mean my favorite movie? The oen where the Romulan ambassador helped set everything up? Romulans are self interested as a culture and the majority of the time as individuals. They take advantage of weakness, they don't like to kowtow to anyone, neither Federation or KDF. If this was a more honest Romulan faction, we would be more likely to see Romulans rebuilding in isolation (liek they have gone into before, on numerous occasions) except where they can take advantage of the KDF/Fed conflict to gain something.
Actually, if you think about it, Romulans are supposed to be all about passion. What's more passionate than a rebel?
Lots of things. Even many of the 'nice' romulans (ones with federation sympathies or hatred of the Tal'Shiar, etc) tend to have an increadibly strong sense of duty to the Romulan Star Empire. Some of the traitors even act betray the RSE because they want to act to preserve it against what they see as destabilizing elements, not necessarily out of desire to join the federation. They are a deeply patriotic culture, in addition to the common traits of arrogance, paranoia, and widespread practice of deceit in all matters. I wouldn't say that rebellion is necessarily a very 'romulan' trait except where it could be viewed as helping to preserve the RSE.
If you actually bothered to read my replies, you'd know that is in no way applicable, and I have explained my position numerous enough times already.
LOL, you literally used the phrase "real Romulan", and then you say the "no true scotsman" fallacy is irrelevant? You're incapable of self-reflection.
But you have already self-admitted that you ignore anything I write on this subject, so nothing you have to say on this matter is of any consequence or importance. Get back to me when you actually bother to read what I write on the matter and show that you are capable of understanding it or replying to it in an honest manner.
Jesus you're a disingenuous hypocrite.
Oh, you mean my favorite movie? The oen where the Romulan ambassador helped set everything up? Romulans are self interested as a culture and the majority of the time as individuals. They take advantage of weakness, they don't like to kowtow to anyone, neither Federation or KDF. If this was a more honest Romulan faction, we would be more likely to see Romulans rebuilding in isolation (liek they have gone into before, on numerous occasions) except where they can take advantage of the KDF/Fed conflict to gain something.
Whoosh! That's the sound of the point going right through your ears. What's the theme of your "favorite movie"? I'll spell it out for you, since it's pretty obvious you're incapable of thinking on that level:
James T. Kirk: It's about the future, Madame Chancellor. Some people think the future means the end of history. Well, we haven't run out of history quite yet. Your father called the future the undiscovered country. People can be very frightened of change.
Azetbur: You've restored my father's faith.
Kirk: And you've restored my son's.
Lots of things. Even many of the 'nice' romulans (ones with federation sympathies or hatred of the Tal'Shiar, etc) tend to have an increadibly strong sense of duty to the Romulan Star Empire. Some of the traitors even act betray the RSE because they want to act to preserve it against what they see as destabilizing elements, not necessarily out of desire to join the federation. They are a deeply patriotic culture, in addition to the common traits of arrogance, paranoia, and widespread practice of deceit in all matters. I wouldn't say that rebellion is necessarily a very 'romulan' trait except where it could be viewed as helping to preserve the RSE.
I'm not going to bother. Star Trek is replete with examples of Romulans that do not conform to your stereotype, and history and literature are replete with revolutionaries that are both patriotic and opposed to the establishment, but your confirmation bias will not allow you to consider any of this. All you want to do is nerd rage about how Cryptic isn't conforming to your totally skewed and one-dimensional perception.
Well, they're not going to change it now, so either get over it, or go away. You add nothing of value to the discussion with your close-minded, repetitious posts.
Yeah, I got that, it's just in the latest blog they have clearly and specifically labelled three distinctive groups. Threw me off a little. I thought I'd missed something somewhere.
It threw everyone off, because it doesn't make sense. First the alining was an "individual choice," then they introduced the three groups. Now they say oh It's all about D'Tans' group's allegiance.
Either somebody isn't proofing what they are saying for consistency, the whole plot is too convoluted to make any sense anyway, or the plot is so good to explain it through would ruin it.
LOL, you literally used the phrase "real Romulan", and then you say the "no true scotsman" fallacy is irrelevant? You're incapable of self-reflection.
Jesus you're a disingenuous hypocrite.
Whoosh! That's the sound of the point going right through your ears. What's the theme of your "favorite movie"? I'll spell it out for you, since it's pretty obvious you're incapable of thinking on that level:
I'm not going to bother. Star Trek is replete with examples of Romulans that do not conform to your stereotype, and history and literature are replete with revolutionaries that are both patriotic and opposed to the establishment, but your confirmation bias will not allow you to consider any of this. All you want to do is nerd rage about how Cryptic isn't conforming to your totally skewed and one-dimensional perception.
Well, they're not going to change it now, so either get over it, or go away. You add nothing of value to the discussion with your close-minded, repetitious posts.
New players coming to the game who are fans of Romulans will know nothing about the path to 2409 storyline. They will be expecting to play the Romulans they know from the T.V shows, games and other media. Some will like what cryptic is doing story wise, I think many more will not.
It would be like cryptic changing what makes the Federation the Federation and trying to pass it out to fans. STO would of shut down early on from the outrage of Fed fans.
New players coming to the game who are fans of Romulans will know nothing about the path to 2409 storyline. They will be expecting to play the Romulans they know from the T.V shows, games and other media. Some will like what cryptic is doing story wise, I think many more will not.
It would be like cryptic changing what makes the Federation the Federation and trying to pass it out to fans. STO would of shut down early on from the outrage of Fed fans.
Some might argue that they have changed what makes the Federation the Federation. After all, their mission of peaceful exploration has turned into apparently being at war with the entire galaxy. Yet the game is still here.
Furthermore, the Federation is the cornerstone of the Star Trek franchise; it's the lens through which the audience views the rest of the Star Trek universe. Alterations to the Federation would have a much larger impact than changes to the Romulan Star Empire. Changing the Federation changes the entire franchise. Changing the Romulan Star Empire does not.
Case in point: the Romulan homeworld is gone, yet Star Trek as a franchise is relatively unaffected. Destroy Earth, throw the Federation into civil war, and everything would change.
Some might argue that they have changed what makes the Federation the Federation. After all, their mission of peaceful exploration has turned into apparently being at war with the entire galaxy. Yet the game is still here.
Furthermore, the Federation is the cornerstone of the Star Trek franchise; it's the lens through which the audience views the rest of the Star Trek universe. Alterations to the Federation would have a much larger impact than changes to the Romulan Star Empire. Changing the Federation changes the entire franchise. Changing the Romulan Star Empire does not.
Case in point: the Romulan homeworld is gone, yet Star Trek as a franchise is relatively unaffected. Destroy Earth, throw the Federation into civil war, and everything would change.
So stereotypes (of Federation) are ok-is what you are saying. How is changing the Federation from its stereotype any different from the Romulans?
And Star trek being unchanged by Romulus being gone? That's your opinion, but by no means a fact.
As for the federation being the cornerstone of Trek, blah blah. I assume you haven't noticed that we have a KDF faction? With a radically different point of view from the Federation? Do you want them to throw down the Klingon empire? It's such an oppressive regime, I'm sure you could come up with a few examples of Klingon seperatists to support this notion. Or how about having a Maquis rebellion in starfleet? After all, Starfleet gave them such a bad time, it would only make sense for there to be a rebellion...You seem to have a fair amount of double standards here, darkelfofficer.
It kind of does. The neutral zone created a rather prominent buffer beyond which the Federation was not going to colonize, and the RSE provided a constant antagonist, which was very much needed with how neutered the Klingons became.
There's really no power player in the alpha or beta quadrant left, except the Federation. Outside of constantly floating uber monsters of the week (the Borg, the Dominion, the Undine, now the Iconians), what's left?
Every peer of the Federation is basically in shambles. The only threat left to the Federation are those uber species I name above, and they'll always be defeated by trotting out some silly deus ex machina. Just wait for Q to pop up and send the entire collective into the Andromeda galaxy, permanently seal any potential entry from fluidic space, and drag the Iconians into the continuum for a solid bully beatdown, all with a single snap of his finger.
Case in point: the Romulan homeworld is gone, yet Star Trek as a franchise is relatively unaffected. Destroy Earth, throw the Federation into civil war, and everything would change.
There's been nothing canon in the franchise since its destruction, and outside of the Hobus event and Spock exiting the timeline, JJ trek isn't related to the present timeline.
They had the right idea trying to re-ignite Federation and Klingon hostilities, but that's clearly been dropped in favor of pushing the Borg, and Undine, and now the Iconians, etc.
I ask above, where does all this lead? My feeling is that it leads to a defunct IP. And if they're actually considering Borg lock boxes, maybe a defunct MMO as well.
"Tolerance and apathy are the last virtues of a dying society." - Aristotle
New players coming to the game who are fans of Romulans will know nothing about the path to 2409 storyline. They will be expecting to play the Romulans they know from the T.V shows, games and other media. Some will like what cryptic is doing story wise, I think many more will not.
It would be like cryptic changing what makes the Federation the Federation and trying to pass it out to fans. STO would of shut down early on from the outrage of Fed fans.
It kind of does. The neutral zone created a rather prominent buffer beyond which the Federation was not going to colonize, and the RSE provided a constant antagonist, which was very much needed with how neutered the Klingons became.
There's really no power player in the alpha or beta quadrant left, except the Federation. Outside of constantly floating uber monsters of the week (the Borg, the Dominion, the Undine, now the Iconians), what's left?
Every peer of the Federation is basically in shambles. The only threat left to the Federation are those uber species I name above, and they'll always be defeated by trotting out some silly deus ex machina. Just wait for Q to pop up and send the entire collective into the Andromeda galaxy, permanently seal any potential entry from fluidic space, and drag the Iconians into the continuum for a solid bully beatdown, all with a single snap of his finger.
That is all plot; it's not what Star Trek is about, which is an optimistic and humanistic story about an enlightened human race boldly going where no one has gone before and, in the better episodes, encountering situations that allow commentary on real-world issues.
Change the character of the Federation, and it ceases to be that. It ceases to be "Star Trek" and becomes the dystopian future of "Firefly" or "Battlestar Galactica", or the fantasy adventure of Star Wars, or what-have-you. Change the character of the Federation, and the character of the franchise changes. Blow up Romulus, and it's still a show about enlightened humanity boldly going.
Well, first, unless you PvP there's really no war. So one Rom shooting another isn't really a factor - and PvP isn't role-playing. It's outside of the context of the story.
See I still think that's just a half-baked attempt to rationalize a really badly thought out game mechanic. *Romulans should be implemented stand-alone with their own starbases, etc. *Maybe even with their own embassies (one on earth one on qonos). *I don't think they should have access to KDF/Fed ships either... They should only have access to their own ships and whatever C-Store/Lobi/Lockbox ships are available to everyone.
I just hope they're not using gameplay to influence story. Things should never work that way - story should influence gameplay. But based on what they've said about being a 2-faction game, I think I am going to be disappointed in this regard.
Regarding bases - a poster pointed out that while the short term goal of making people not feel ground out by having to level up another starbase is nice, it's not good for the long term. Eventually, all bases will be tier 5, and wouldn't it be nice to be able level up a Romulan base as well?
Change the character of the Federation, and it ceases to be that. It ceases to be "Star Trek" and becomes the dystopian future of "Firefly" or "Battlestar Galactica", or the fantasy adventure of Star Wars, or what-have-you. Change the character of the Federation, and the character of the franchise changes. Blow up Romulus, and it's still a show about enlightened humanity boldly going.
But now that we're given the opportunity to play the Romulans, shouldn't we be able to play the Romulans we knew from the show, not Spock Jr.'s Fed-Lite Republic? If I want to play a Truth, Justice, and the American Way faction, I'll play the Feds. That's not what the majority of Romulans were ever about in the shows. The third option, loyal to the Empire but anti-Iconian puppet Tal Shiar and anti-Fed-Lite Republic and its allies is the way to go.
That is all plot; it's not what Star Trek is about, which is an optimistic and humanistic story about an enlightened human race boldly going where no one has gone before and, in the better episodes, encountering situations that allow commentary on real-world issues.
It strayed so far form that that they stopped bothering to even include the monologue in the opening credits.
Also, you're embellishing when you add terms like "optimistic," "humanistic" and "enlightened." They're explorers, and as long as they're seeking out new life and new civilizations, and boldly going where no one has gone before, they qualify as trek. I'm sure that played into the declining success of the IP; the Voyager crew weren't explorers, but unwitting victims of an alien on the other side of the galaxy, and Enterprise timidly went where the series had already been before, even if we're supposed to believe that this was the first time they were getting there.
Change the character of the Federation, and it ceases to be that. It ceases to be "Star Trek" and becomes the dystopian future of "Firefly" or "Battlestar Galactica", or the fantasy adventure of Star Wars, or what-have-you. Change the character of the Federation, and the character of the franchise changes. Blow up Romulus, and it's still a show about enlightened humanity boldly going.
TOS thrived on presenting moral dilemmas, and exploring the shades of gray. By Voyager and certainly by Enterprise, moral certitude had replaced moral dilemma, so much so that whatever morals they were asserting almost seemed divested of all emotion, as if they were to be taken as a matter of fact rather than a conclusion drawn of experience and rigorous debate.
To me, that comes across as some sort of idealistic agenda, and idealistic agendas aren't relatable unless you already agree with the ideals being advanced; I think that's exactly why the IP started to flounder, because it supplanted moral dilemma with moral certitude.
Besides, the Federation isn't always as black-and-white as you make them out to be. On several occasions we're given indications if not outright evidence that there exist shades of gray within Starfleet command. Painting the entire Federation with broad strokes of "good guy white" is revisionist in its own right.
Further, re-introducing moral dilemma and softening the hard-line moral rhetoric does not necessitate totally abandoning all sense of morality; it does necessitate setting aside the agenda of trying to fit the IP to the writers' morality, rather than exploring ways in which the IP can offer moral commentary.
I'd certainly love to see some Trek where, suffering major defeats across the Federation, Starfleet is forced to adopt a more practical morality, instead of stylized morals of the late 20th century, initially adopted to create tension within the plot and later hijacked by the victim-culture of the '90s. I'd really love to see it go a step further and ditch the whole Federation as a socialist paradise concept, because that seems equally rooted in fantasy, but that's probably asking for too much.
"Tolerance and apathy are the last virtues of a dying society." - Aristotle
Lots of things. Even many of the 'nice' romulans (ones with federation sympathies or hatred of the Tal'Shiar, etc) tend to have an increadibly strong sense of duty to the Romulan Star Empire. Some of the traitors even act betray the RSE because they want to act to preserve it against what they see as destabilizing elements, not necessarily out of desire to join the federation. They are a deeply patriotic culture, in addition to the common traits of arrogance, paranoia, and widespread practice of deceit in all matters. I wouldn't say that rebellion is necessarily a very 'romulan' trait except where it could be viewed as helping to preserve the RSE.
And you get this from where exactly? How often did we see Romulans who were not part of the military, Tal Shiar, or political leadership? Only ones I can think of were the Unificationists that Spock was plotting with.
You guys need to get to grips with the fact that the galaxy has moved on since the shows. You don't like that the Romulans are changing? I felt the same way about both the Federation and the Klingons when TNG came out. I got used to it; and by the time DS9 and Voyager came along, I thought TOS had been silly and 2 dimensional. It's 2409, and nobody has been through more 'interesting' times in the last 40 years than the Romulans. That the nasty paranoid Romulans are still hanging onto power at all by this point is the most surprising thing here.
And you get this from where exactly? How often did we see Romulans who were not part of the military, Tal Shiar, or political leadership? Only ones I can think of were the Unificationists that Spock was plotting with.
You guys need to get to grips with the fact that the galaxy has moved on since the shows. You don't like that the Romulans are changing? I felt the same way about both the Federation and the Klingons when TNG came out. I got used to it; and by the time DS9 and Voyager came along, I thought TOS had been silly and 2 dimensional. It's 2409, and nobody has been through more 'interesting' times in the last 40 years than the Romulans. That the nasty paranoid Romulans are still hanging onto power at all by this point is the most surprising thing here.
We saw plenty of Romulan governemnt officials who acted in this way. As for civilians? Not much can be said either way, consdiering we never saw 'normal' civilians-either politicians or reunificationists. What we do see from all corners of the RSE is generally paranoid, arrogant, sneaky, and highly militaristic. I think it's more reasonable to consider that the Civilian population resembles the politicians and military than following D'Tan's example.
TOS was one series. One. The Romulans appeared in three TNG-era series plus several movies. They have been establsihed counter to the TOS Romulans extensively for quite some time now. Cryptic doing a 180 on the Romulans *now* is a much bigger deal that the switch from TOS to TNG Romulans.
As for the concept of them changing? It seems contrived and nonsensical within the context of STO, where they have been already established as being 'TNG-style' romulans.
We saw plenty of Romulan governemnt officials who acted in this way. As for civilians? Not much can be said either way, consdiering we never saw 'normal' civilians-either politicians or reunificationists. What we do see from all corners of the RSE is generally paranoid, arrogant, sneaky, and highly militaristic. I think it's more reasonable to consider that the Civilian population resembles the politicians and military than following D'Tan's example.
TOS was one series. One. The Romulans appeared in three TNG-era series plus several movies. They have been establsihed counter to the TOS Romulans extensively for quite some time now. Cryptic doing a 180 on the Romulans *now* is a much bigger deal that the switch from TOS to TNG Romulans.
As for the concept of them changing? It seems contrived and nonsensical within the context of STO, where they have been already established as being 'TNG-style' romulans.
Contrived and nonsensical? Only if you ignore everything that has happened from Nemesis onwards.
Their leadership was wiped out by a human, and their Empire practically taken over by Remans. The Star Empire tore itself apart, breaking into multiple factions. Hobus blew up and gutted the heart of Romulan space. Leaders got themselves lost or assassinated. A Romulan/Human hybrid ends up in charge, and unleashes the Hunters on an already ravaged region. The Reman (or at least some of them) rebel. The Tal Shiar starts openly attacking colonies that aren't toeing the line. Then it turns out that one of their leaders had been responsible for the destruction of the homeworld.
The Romulans brought all of their current troubles down on themselves. You think, after all that, folks on backwater colonies are still going to be singing the praises of the Empire?
The Star Empire shattered long before this point. Not every group that emerged from the ruins was going to be exactly the same as the old order; some people were going to notice that it had not been working so well for them.
The Star Empire shattered long before this point. Not every group that emerged from the ruins was going to be exactly the same as the old order; some people were going to notice that it had not been working so well for them.
You raise some good points, and most of the Path to 2409 is filled with what you talk about - factions and fighting and the Empire tearing itself apart... until Sela becomes Praetor:
2404: The Romulan Star Empire is enjoying a time of peace that it hasn't seen since the destruction of the Romulan homeworld almost two decades ago. Praetor Sela settles long-simmering disputes between colony worlds, opens the Romulus memorial at the remains of the homeworld, and gently shapes the Senate to her way of thinking.
2408: Observers at the coronation say that it proceeds with as much pomp and circumstance as the recovering empire can muster. Sela calls for a return to the traditions of old, including the carrying of honor blades and blood oaths.
In fact, before taking the crown the empress publicly uses a jeweled blade to cut her own palm. As the blood dripped down onto a rug of white fur, Sela takes an oath to uphold and preserve the empire with her life.
"Tradition is very important in this new order," the SI source says. "Sela is consciously recalling a golden age on the old homeworld, and using those memories to inspire the people. They're talking about mnhei'sahe again, and a lot of people have started referring to Nova Roma as Mol'Rihan, which is 'New Romulus' in High Rihannsu."
It seems to me that the Empire as a whole is generally better off with Sela. There's not a whole lot about her reign discussed in The Path, which I assume we'll be exploring in the expansion. But even though it is implied that she is a bit of a dictator, she was able to become one with little to no fuss (because of that new era of peace) and her call to the old ways is going to make a lot of Romulans thinking about the glory of Romulus, NOT running off to Spock Jr.'s Fed-Lite Republic.
Which is why there should be more exploration of that third faction of Romulans: those loyal to the EMPIRE, not the Iconian puppet Tal Shiar nor the Fed 2.0 Republic and their "allies". At the very least, there would be an attempt to reinstate a praetorship and a senate. Even if that failed, factions would spring up, vying for power - and Spock Jr.'s New Romulus would only be one of those factions - most others would be trying to gain control of the Empire, not unify with Vulcans or ally with other foreign powers.
Their leadership was wiped out by a human, and their Empire practically taken over by Remans. The Star Empire tore itself apart, breaking into multiple factions. Leaders got themselves lost or assassinated. The Reman (or at least some of them) rebel. The Tal Shiar starts openly attacking colonies that aren't toeing the line.
Hobus blew up and gutted the heart of Romulan space. A Romulan/Human hybrid ends up in charge, and unleashes the Hunters on an already ravaged region. Then it turns out that one of their leaders had been responsible for the destruction of the homeworld.
This stuff seems contrived, but if I'm not mistaken most of that is STO's own brand of contrivance. And I expect it all to fall to the wayside so that the Borg can be re-reintroduced into the story, maybe as an Undine weapon designed to fight Iconians.
"Tolerance and apathy are the last virtues of a dying society." - Aristotle
Comments
Romulans are all about deceit, treachery, and Machiavellian schemes. That's what I want to play. I want the romulan star empire and the tal'shiar. I don't want this hippy-esque group of failures.
I'm sure this is to boost the mass-market appeal of the faction (they even said as much in the interview) To target people who merely like the Romulan Ship designs but feel too squeemish about playing a real Romulan, no doubt.
They are horribly mutilating everything that fans of the Romulans from the show liked about them, however.
This^^^^^^^^^
and this ^^^^^ if I want to play peace loving I play fed!!!!!!!
system Lord Baal is dead
Once again.
It seems some people didn't learn anything from Star Trek VI.
Actually, if you think about it, Romulans are supposed to be all about passion. What's more passionate than a rebel?
If you actually bothered to read my replies, you'd know that is in no way applicable, and I have explained my position numerous enough times already.
But you have already self-admitted that you ignore anything I write on this subject, so nothing you have to say on this matter is of any consequence or importance. Get back to me when you actually bother to read what I write on the matter and show that you are capable of understanding it or replying to it in an honest manner.
At least you aren't accusing me of beign racist this time, lol.
Oh, you mean my favorite movie? The oen where the Romulan ambassador helped set everything up? Romulans are self interested as a culture and the majority of the time as individuals. They take advantage of weakness, they don't like to kowtow to anyone, neither Federation or KDF. If this was a more honest Romulan faction, we would be more likely to see Romulans rebuilding in isolation (liek they have gone into before, on numerous occasions) except where they can take advantage of the KDF/Fed conflict to gain something.
Lots of things. Even many of the 'nice' romulans (ones with federation sympathies or hatred of the Tal'Shiar, etc) tend to have an increadibly strong sense of duty to the Romulan Star Empire. Some of the traitors even act betray the RSE because they want to act to preserve it against what they see as destabilizing elements, not necessarily out of desire to join the federation. They are a deeply patriotic culture, in addition to the common traits of arrogance, paranoia, and widespread practice of deceit in all matters. I wouldn't say that rebellion is necessarily a very 'romulan' trait except where it could be viewed as helping to preserve the RSE.
LOL, you literally used the phrase "real Romulan", and then you say the "no true scotsman" fallacy is irrelevant? You're incapable of self-reflection.
Jesus you're a disingenuous hypocrite.
Whoosh! That's the sound of the point going right through your ears. What's the theme of your "favorite movie"? I'll spell it out for you, since it's pretty obvious you're incapable of thinking on that level:
I'm not going to bother. Star Trek is replete with examples of Romulans that do not conform to your stereotype, and history and literature are replete with revolutionaries that are both patriotic and opposed to the establishment, but your confirmation bias will not allow you to consider any of this. All you want to do is nerd rage about how Cryptic isn't conforming to your totally skewed and one-dimensional perception.
Well, they're not going to change it now, so either get over it, or go away. You add nothing of value to the discussion with your close-minded, repetitious posts.
It threw everyone off, because it doesn't make sense. First the alining was an "individual choice," then they introduced the three groups. Now they say oh It's all about D'Tans' group's allegiance.
Either somebody isn't proofing what they are saying for consistency, the whole plot is too convoluted to make any sense anyway, or the plot is so good to explain it through would ruin it.
Any chance it is the third possibility?...
here is to hoping.
New players coming to the game who are fans of Romulans will know nothing about the path to 2409 storyline. They will be expecting to play the Romulans they know from the T.V shows, games and other media. Some will like what cryptic is doing story wise, I think many more will not.
It would be like cryptic changing what makes the Federation the Federation and trying to pass it out to fans. STO would of shut down early on from the outrage of Fed fans.
Some might argue that they have changed what makes the Federation the Federation. After all, their mission of peaceful exploration has turned into apparently being at war with the entire galaxy. Yet the game is still here.
Furthermore, the Federation is the cornerstone of the Star Trek franchise; it's the lens through which the audience views the rest of the Star Trek universe. Alterations to the Federation would have a much larger impact than changes to the Romulan Star Empire. Changing the Federation changes the entire franchise. Changing the Romulan Star Empire does not.
Case in point: the Romulan homeworld is gone, yet Star Trek as a franchise is relatively unaffected. Destroy Earth, throw the Federation into civil war, and everything would change.
And Star trek being unchanged by Romulus being gone? That's your opinion, but by no means a fact.
As for the federation being the cornerstone of Trek, blah blah. I assume you haven't noticed that we have a KDF faction? With a radically different point of view from the Federation? Do you want them to throw down the Klingon empire? It's such an oppressive regime, I'm sure you could come up with a few examples of Klingon seperatists to support this notion. Or how about having a Maquis rebellion in starfleet? After all, Starfleet gave them such a bad time, it would only make sense for there to be a rebellion...You seem to have a fair amount of double standards here, darkelfofficer.
There's really no power player in the alpha or beta quadrant left, except the Federation. Outside of constantly floating uber monsters of the week (the Borg, the Dominion, the Undine, now the Iconians), what's left?
Every peer of the Federation is basically in shambles. The only threat left to the Federation are those uber species I name above, and they'll always be defeated by trotting out some silly deus ex machina. Just wait for Q to pop up and send the entire collective into the Andromeda galaxy, permanently seal any potential entry from fluidic space, and drag the Iconians into the continuum for a solid bully beatdown, all with a single snap of his finger.
There's been nothing canon in the franchise since its destruction, and outside of the Hobus event and Spock exiting the timeline, JJ trek isn't related to the present timeline.
They had the right idea trying to re-ignite Federation and Klingon hostilities, but that's clearly been dropped in favor of pushing the Borg, and Undine, and now the Iconians, etc.
I ask above, where does all this lead? My feeling is that it leads to a defunct IP. And if they're actually considering Borg lock boxes, maybe a defunct MMO as well.
My character Tsin'xing
That is all plot; it's not what Star Trek is about, which is an optimistic and humanistic story about an enlightened human race boldly going where no one has gone before and, in the better episodes, encountering situations that allow commentary on real-world issues.
Change the character of the Federation, and it ceases to be that. It ceases to be "Star Trek" and becomes the dystopian future of "Firefly" or "Battlestar Galactica", or the fantasy adventure of Star Wars, or what-have-you. Change the character of the Federation, and the character of the franchise changes. Blow up Romulus, and it's still a show about enlightened humanity boldly going.
I just hope they're not using gameplay to influence story. Things should never work that way - story should influence gameplay. But based on what they've said about being a 2-faction game, I think I am going to be disappointed in this regard.
Regarding bases - a poster pointed out that while the short term goal of making people not feel ground out by having to level up another starbase is nice, it's not good for the long term. Eventually, all bases will be tier 5, and wouldn't it be nice to be able level up a Romulan base as well?
But now that we're given the opportunity to play the Romulans, shouldn't we be able to play the Romulans we knew from the show, not Spock Jr.'s Fed-Lite Republic? If I want to play a Truth, Justice, and the American Way faction, I'll play the Feds. That's not what the majority of Romulans were ever about in the shows. The third option, loyal to the Empire but anti-Iconian puppet Tal Shiar and anti-Fed-Lite Republic and its allies is the way to go.
Also, you're embellishing when you add terms like "optimistic," "humanistic" and "enlightened." They're explorers, and as long as they're seeking out new life and new civilizations, and boldly going where no one has gone before, they qualify as trek. I'm sure that played into the declining success of the IP; the Voyager crew weren't explorers, but unwitting victims of an alien on the other side of the galaxy, and Enterprise timidly went where the series had already been before, even if we're supposed to believe that this was the first time they were getting there.
TOS thrived on presenting moral dilemmas, and exploring the shades of gray. By Voyager and certainly by Enterprise, moral certitude had replaced moral dilemma, so much so that whatever morals they were asserting almost seemed divested of all emotion, as if they were to be taken as a matter of fact rather than a conclusion drawn of experience and rigorous debate.
To me, that comes across as some sort of idealistic agenda, and idealistic agendas aren't relatable unless you already agree with the ideals being advanced; I think that's exactly why the IP started to flounder, because it supplanted moral dilemma with moral certitude.
Besides, the Federation isn't always as black-and-white as you make them out to be. On several occasions we're given indications if not outright evidence that there exist shades of gray within Starfleet command. Painting the entire Federation with broad strokes of "good guy white" is revisionist in its own right.
Further, re-introducing moral dilemma and softening the hard-line moral rhetoric does not necessitate totally abandoning all sense of morality; it does necessitate setting aside the agenda of trying to fit the IP to the writers' morality, rather than exploring ways in which the IP can offer moral commentary.
I'd certainly love to see some Trek where, suffering major defeats across the Federation, Starfleet is forced to adopt a more practical morality, instead of stylized morals of the late 20th century, initially adopted to create tension within the plot and later hijacked by the victim-culture of the '90s. I'd really love to see it go a step further and ditch the whole Federation as a socialist paradise concept, because that seems equally rooted in fantasy, but that's probably asking for too much.
And you get this from where exactly? How often did we see Romulans who were not part of the military, Tal Shiar, or political leadership? Only ones I can think of were the Unificationists that Spock was plotting with.
You guys need to get to grips with the fact that the galaxy has moved on since the shows. You don't like that the Romulans are changing? I felt the same way about both the Federation and the Klingons when TNG came out. I got used to it; and by the time DS9 and Voyager came along, I thought TOS had been silly and 2 dimensional. It's 2409, and nobody has been through more 'interesting' times in the last 40 years than the Romulans. That the nasty paranoid Romulans are still hanging onto power at all by this point is the most surprising thing here.
TOS was one series. One. The Romulans appeared in three TNG-era series plus several movies. They have been establsihed counter to the TOS Romulans extensively for quite some time now. Cryptic doing a 180 on the Romulans *now* is a much bigger deal that the switch from TOS to TNG Romulans.
As for the concept of them changing? It seems contrived and nonsensical within the context of STO, where they have been already established as being 'TNG-style' romulans.
Contrived and nonsensical? Only if you ignore everything that has happened from Nemesis onwards.
Their leadership was wiped out by a human, and their Empire practically taken over by Remans. The Star Empire tore itself apart, breaking into multiple factions. Hobus blew up and gutted the heart of Romulan space. Leaders got themselves lost or assassinated. A Romulan/Human hybrid ends up in charge, and unleashes the Hunters on an already ravaged region. The Reman (or at least some of them) rebel. The Tal Shiar starts openly attacking colonies that aren't toeing the line. Then it turns out that one of their leaders had been responsible for the destruction of the homeworld.
The Romulans brought all of their current troubles down on themselves. You think, after all that, folks on backwater colonies are still going to be singing the praises of the Empire?
The Star Empire shattered long before this point. Not every group that emerged from the ruins was going to be exactly the same as the old order; some people were going to notice that it had not been working so well for them.
You raise some good points, and most of the Path to 2409 is filled with what you talk about - factions and fighting and the Empire tearing itself apart... until Sela becomes Praetor:
It seems to me that the Empire as a whole is generally better off with Sela. There's not a whole lot about her reign discussed in The Path, which I assume we'll be exploring in the expansion. But even though it is implied that she is a bit of a dictator, she was able to become one with little to no fuss (because of that new era of peace) and her call to the old ways is going to make a lot of Romulans thinking about the glory of Romulus, NOT running off to Spock Jr.'s Fed-Lite Republic.
Which is why there should be more exploration of that third faction of Romulans: those loyal to the EMPIRE, not the Iconian puppet Tal Shiar nor the Fed 2.0 Republic and their "allies". At the very least, there would be an attempt to reinstate a praetorship and a senate. Even if that failed, factions would spring up, vying for power - and Spock Jr.'s New Romulus would only be one of those factions - most others would be trying to gain control of the Empire, not unify with Vulcans or ally with other foreign powers.
it was wiped out by a Biot (Genetically engineered lab experiment)
This stuff seems contrived, but if I'm not mistaken most of that is STO's own brand of contrivance. And I expect it all to fall to the wayside so that the Borg can be re-reintroduced into the story, maybe as an Undine weapon designed to fight Iconians.