That's kind of a circular argument since it leads right back to "accurate and elusive are clearly the best traits though". But I am pretty sure you know you're playing Devil's advocate here, so this is probably a captain obvious observation.
Well, have to consider Holo vs. Tribble. On Tribble, an Alien can take 8 space traits and 1 ground trait. It's kind of a different story than on Holo.
Nerfing something, though - would require rebalancing.
Removing on the other hand...
Yeah I actually think that in a sense the extra traits all characters will have reduces the issue, because a higher % of characters will end up with said traits.
I still think they should have done something like each character having a racial trait, 3 space traits, and 3 ground traits. Or something like that.
But anyway, what's done is done. These threads have enough speculation about things that aren't happening as is without me piling on even more.
"We are smart." - Grebnedlog
Member of Alliance Central Command/boq botlhra'ghom
[..]
Nerfing something, though - would require rebalancing.
Removing on the other hand...
For what it is worth, I would like to see the system converted into a "vice and virtue". Each trait would have an inherent "vice" or demerit value associated with it. I figure most players would be against such a thing but I think it would add an interesting dimension to the game.
On a related note, I would like to see some traits that deal with BOff and DOff as well.
If you are looking for an excellent PvE fleet consider: Omega Combat Division today.
Former member of the Cryptic Family & FriendsTesting Team. Sadly, one day, it simply vanished - without a word or trace...
Given that the traits are supposedly balanced around each other, were you to nerf Accurate/Elusive...you'd have to nerf all the other traits as well. Would people still get over it?
Yeah because +10% accuracy is balanced as a trait to getting +10 in hull repair skill. Or efficient for that matter with current (and soon to see) power levels.
Fact of the matter is pretty cut and dry. None of the traits are really balanced in a direct comparison to one another. Accurate/Elusive however are borderline game changers and 'must haves' for everyone and now is the perfect time to take them down a notch.
They cannot simply remove them, there are barely enough space traits as it is.
Well they did it the smart way, instead nerfing accuracy and elusive they gave access to it to everyone - which in end means everyone has 2 slots less for no benefit
"Cryptic Studio’s Jack Emmert (2010): Microtransactions are the biggest bunch of nonsense. I like paying one fee and not worrying about it – like my cellphone. The world’s biggest MMO isn’t item based, even though the black market item GDP is bigger than Russia … microtransactions make me want to die.”
Well they did it the smart way, instead nerfing accuracy and elusive they gave access to it to everyone - which in end means everyone has 2 slots less for no benefit
Just like ensign engineering and tactical boff slots! Just what this game needs, more false choices!
The traits that enhance Captain-level abilities only show up in the list when you're filling in the level 40 or level 50 trait slot. I put a level requirement on them so that people didn't choose a trait that did nothing at level 10, 20, or 30.
What hawk means is that as you select traits, you fill up the Level 10, 20, etc Slots before you get to the slots that allow you to select the Captain-power enhancing abilities.
IMO, it would be better to display the Locked Out Traits with a blurb on it saying "Level X required" rather than not display it all until you meet the prerequisite.
I agree with atatassault. The current implementation is confusing. The traits should be visible but locked (with an explanation) until you reach the appropriate level.
Just like ensign engineering and tactical boff slots! Just what this game needs, more false choices!
Players that do not PvP have literally zero need for either of those traits.
Not to mention that my main character for pvp, Tac/Escort, has never had elusive. It was my first character and I had no concept of mechanics at the time.
He doesn't really die more often or take more damage or get hit significantly more from what I can see in the logs.
When you get focus fired by another coordinated team, +10% defense is not going to save you - your team will, or they won't.
I agree with atatassault. The current implementation is confusing. The traits should be visible but locked (with an explanation) until you reach the appropriate level.
There is no point in giving us choices, if we are all forced to choose the same thing. There are not enough career trait options to consider against each other. There arent enough space trait options to choose from. The only 'choice' is whether or not you want to choose space, ground, or a small mix of both. There are plenty of ground traits, but my level 50 fed can take EVERY SINGLE SPACE TRAIT. This is a problem because most people prefer space combat over ground, yet anyone who makes an all space build is going to have all the same traits as everyone else with that same career path.
Long story short, Cryptic, we need more space traits, a lot more. Both general traits and class specific traits.
Its not a false choice. Stop thinking PVP all the time.
Its a nice accuracy and defense boost for PVE.
That is a benefit I want. If you people dont want it, dont use it.
I don't PvP.
A false choice is when something is so amazing you would be a complete idiot not to take it. Sure I can tank tac cubes without EPtS or Tac Team. Why on earth would I want to make the content twice as difficult on myself by doing so?
*sigh*
Accuracy becomes crit in PvE. Defense becomes damage not taken. Both are amazingly strong especially when compared to the alternatives. Bah this is still not the point I'm trying to get across let us try again.
If you offer a reward at the completion of a mission and one reward is worth half as much as the other but is labeled in a way that will confuse many that would make the act of choosing a reward a false choice in my book.
At the same time if you offer ability A that doubles my survivability and ability B that merely increases it sometimes by half I do not view that as a choice. But to each their own.
The main problem in balancing the traits is still building synergies: Astrophysicist may be one of the low-effect-traits, only if it (and the flow-capacitor-skill itself) becomes a weapon, then you might be able to get the real 10%-effect. So, it is just a good trait if you are using the Omega-Space-Set and the plasmonic-leech-console.
The problem about the plasmonic-leech-console is, that it's currently only available to KDF-characters.
So, we've got a few traits that really effect everybody directly (like "Accurate", "Elusive", "Peak Health" or "Lucky" for example), a few traits that apply only in specific circumstances (that you can't really calculate, "Astrophysicist" for example) and we've got bad jokes like warp-theorist (that you can calculate).
But the worst thing about the trait-revamp is that the developers seem to be not interested in feedback. Ok, they opened a Thread and asked for feedback, but they didn't offer any reward for doing so and they didn't reply to the Thread in the last 10 days.
It would have been so easy to say: "Come here, take a look at this, leave a comment and we'll send you a Dilithium-Mining-Claim (or something similar, that rewards you for the time) via mail on Holodeck". When this trait-revamp goes live, people will complain, this thread will be Cryptics excuse "There wasn't enough feedback".
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
If Star Trek Online was an Open-Source (GPL) Game, we would have a low-grind fork.
I'll leave others to debate the relative merits of the other traits, since they do affect everyone. My thoughts on how the space traits affect the Warbirds:
1.) Elusive: Very disappointed to see it wasn't available, but (even if nerfed as suggested) it would be mandatory for anyone wanting to use the battle cloak; when you deliberately drop your shields in combat, you want all the defense you can get. Besides, aren't Rommies supposed to be sneaksy?
2.) Accuracy: I wasn't really sure that it was relevant to Romulans, but as someone pointed out, bonus accuracy becomes crit chance, and that's very Romulan (precision strike after popping stealth). Good to see on the list.
3.) Conservation of Energy: LOVE! During the time I'm uncloaked and picking up singularity charge, I'm also getting my three stacks of +10% damage, making Plasma Shockwave much more damaging, and FINALLY seeing NPCs chewed up by Tractor Beam Repulsors the way I do when they're used on me. I'm looking forward to getting my Mogai Retrofit so I can pack more exotic damage in. (I blasted them with SCIENCE!)
4.) Photonic Capacitor: Photonic Fleet, ESPECIALLY with a reduced cooldown, should provide valuable cover when cloaking (in addition to its usual added DPS and tanking). How Photonic Fleet interacts with the cloak will determine the actual value of this trait; if the fleet vanishes when I cloak, that's bad. If the fleet vanishes when I leave combat because I cloaked, that's not so bad. If the fleet keeps me in combat while cloaked, that could be good or bad depending on the circumstances, but probably closer to good. Pushing my levels now to find out.
5.) Engineer battery trait (whose name apparently has the Elusive trait because it's totally eluding me atm): Given the inherent power penalty for Warbird, but also given that they all come with AT LEAST 3 device slots, I can expect to be using batteries in pinch spots frequently, and the extra power bonus to other systems will definitely help cover that. Since it also adds during EPtX, if I slot the Maintenance Exocomp and a purple Warp Core Specialist DOff, I could get quite the power spike from this trait. Well worth it.
6.) Miracle Worker reset trait: Less useful than Photonic Capacitor, but would add a much appreciated level of survivability to my eng captain in Elite STFs, where one-shot-invisitorps fly freely.
No real comments on the ground traits.
Regarding the UI, I agree that traits you're not yet eligible for should show up greyed out so you can plan ahead with your trait choices.
You've normalized access to Accurate/Elusive for most races, including Liberated Borg (Nice!).
I can not think of any valid reason to restrict Romulans from something that is both mechanically useful in PvP as well as thematically appropriate as "Elusive" for the Romulan Faction.
Then you should be completely unconcerned about Accurate / Elusive.
I promise you, not taking these and playing only PvE - you will never notice the difference.
It's not like your example of "not taking tac team". Which is a poor example.
It's not even remotely close for PvE content.
They make about the same level of difference a purple MK XII tac console or +shield HP console will make.
Those sell for 20+ Mill EC by the way.
But I am not 'concerned' I am simply offering feedback. My perspective is simple, they are faaar better than most other traits and I will take them on every single character I can for that reason. That is my feedback.
And on an off-topic note I must say I am beginning to get a bit sick and tired of the If you don't PVP you are not entitled to an opinion or to offer feedback vibe I've been getting from some people lately. Get off you high horse, I choose not to partake in an activity the game has devoted very few resources too both in designing and balancing content or mechanics for. Instead I PuG it up with the masses and enjoy the game. That does not make my view any more or less relevant to the conversation. And being the type of person I am I do try to look at the issues from the PvE Hero, Casual Player, and PvPer perspectives.
Update! You can now get free respecs on Drozana station. There is a console called "Test Special Items" that the you can use to get all the free respecs you want. Please use them to test out different builds, traits, etc, and please leave your feedback!
i dislike the change to Gorn taking away there bonus of 17% for fighting with hands or blades , its one of the reasons i made a gorn for that and bite i could care less about the cold blooded and resilient being combined , and seeing klingons get 22% now in tribble , with there race trait basically being warrior and honorable , which was already a combination of solider , aggressive , physical strength and resilient
Dont get me wrong i like the fact that my klingon fed will be getting 4 traits for the price of 1 trait spot , and according to the traits there buffed even higher but i dont want others nerfed to not compete , like my Gorn who focuses on ripping a enemy apart
I like the new system, there are some tough choices for me as a sci captain, however, I ran into a problem with today's build. Photonic Capacitor failed to unlock for me, stating that I need to be level 30 to unlock. Please fix it.
- The Respec-Button-warning is working (good work).
- You can create a Bolian with the new Efficent-trait of +30 (good work), but my existing liberated Klingon has got only the +15 Bonus (that's not good).
I still can't find the console for free respec-tokens. Have you forgotten to place it in the new Drozana-interior?
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
If Star Trek Online was an Open-Source (GPL) Game, we would have a low-grind fork.
Has anyone actually found the console for trait respecs yet? I spent about an hour looking for it, yet I found nothing. I don't often do this, but I think that in this extrem case, the use of a smiley is warented. [/FONT]
I noticed they improved the Captain Efficient Trait to +30 (Yay! Thanks!), but kept the BO Efficient trait at only a +7.5 buff. The BO version used to be half the Captain version. Is this intended, or just an oversight?
You can find/contact me in game as @PatricianVetinari. Playing STO since Feb 2010.
Ok, don't want to sound needy and all, but here there any news on the trait update coming?
Photonic fleet trait is still worthless, (and it will stay that way as long as photonic fleet itself stays useless)
Medical vanguard still feel like a weird engineering trait hybrid thing
And field researcher (the +25% damage versus debuffed and controlled ennemies) well I tried all I could and I can't see any difference in my damage output with or without this trait, so yeah, broken and not functional that one.
With release about 10 days away, it's getting kind of scary.
I tested a little bit more... I've created a new character and I was forced to take this new character with the preselected traits you chose, not a good start. You should expect everybody to think: "I know better what I'll need, then Cryptic/Perfect-World does...", so everybody will directly use a respec-token to clear the selection you made. [...]
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
If Star Trek Online was an Open-Source (GPL) Game, we would have a low-grind fork.
No, it's not hidden, you've got to create the character and can use a respec-token while you are in the Tutorial...
That's kind of bad design if I'm honest and means that there is none in character creator - We used to be able to choose our traits, why do they deny us this right now?
And what about a race change token? After playing human for 3 or so years, with 2,5 years out of it leadership being broken and now in S8 nerfed to hell again once it worked for half year, I would prefer to change my race and get some useful bonus from it.
"Cryptic Studio’s Jack Emmert (2010): Microtransactions are the biggest bunch of nonsense. I like paying one fee and not worrying about it – like my cellphone. The world’s biggest MMO isn’t item based, even though the black market item GDP is bigger than Russia … microtransactions make me want to die.”
That's kind of bad design if I'm honest and means that there is none in character creator - We used to be able to choose our traits, why do they deny us this right now?
It's simple: Because the players chose the wrong traits on creation of their characters, now Cryptic chooses the wrong traits for us, the only difference is that you will be able to change the traits whenever you want to.
And what about a race change token? After playing human for 3 or so years, with 2,5 years out of it leadership being broken and now in S8 nerfed to hell again once it worked for half year, I would prefer to change my race and get some useful bonus from it.
You won't be able to change the race/species/gender for some more time. But you will be able to get "Techie" for your Hull-Regeneration and -Heals, when LoR hits Holodeck.
I wonder, when will they finally really balance the traits? This Thread allready lists weak traits, but the massive wave of complaints will begin with the open-beta for LoR and the test-weekend. Making the test-weekend the last weekend before LoR goes live would give the DEVs no time for Bug-fixing and rebalancing...
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
If Star Trek Online was an Open-Source (GPL) Game, we would have a low-grind fork.
Comments
Well, have to consider Holo vs. Tribble. On Tribble, an Alien can take 8 space traits and 1 ground trait. It's kind of a different story than on Holo.
Nerfing something, though - would require rebalancing.
Removing on the other hand...
I still think they should have done something like each character having a racial trait, 3 space traits, and 3 ground traits. Or something like that.
But anyway, what's done is done. These threads have enough speculation about things that aren't happening as is without me piling on even more.
"We are smart." - Grebnedlog
Member of Alliance Central Command/boq botlhra'ghom
For what it is worth, I would like to see the system converted into a "vice and virtue". Each trait would have an inherent "vice" or demerit value associated with it. I figure most players would be against such a thing but I think it would add an interesting dimension to the game.
On a related note, I would like to see some traits that deal with BOff and DOff as well.
ingame: @.Spartan
Original Cryptic Forum Name: Spartan (member #124)
The Glorious, Kirk’s Protegè
Yeah because +10% accuracy is balanced as a trait to getting +10 in hull repair skill. Or efficient for that matter with current (and soon to see) power levels.
Fact of the matter is pretty cut and dry. None of the traits are really balanced in a direct comparison to one another. Accurate/Elusive however are borderline game changers and 'must haves' for everyone and now is the perfect time to take them down a notch.
They cannot simply remove them, there are barely enough space traits as it is.
Just like ensign engineering and tactical boff slots! Just what this game needs, more false choices!
Its a nice accuracy and defense boost for PVE.
That is a benefit I want. If you people dont want it, dont use it.
I agree with atatassault. The current implementation is confusing. The traits should be visible but locked (with an explanation) until you reach the appropriate level.
Players that do not PvP have literally zero need for either of those traits.
Not to mention that my main character for pvp, Tac/Escort, has never had elusive. It was my first character and I had no concept of mechanics at the time.
He doesn't really die more often or take more damage or get hit significantly more from what I can see in the logs.
When you get focus fired by another coordinated team, +10% defense is not going to save you - your team will, or they won't.
Yeah I agree with this as well.
There is no point in giving us choices, if we are all forced to choose the same thing. There are not enough career trait options to consider against each other. There arent enough space trait options to choose from. The only 'choice' is whether or not you want to choose space, ground, or a small mix of both. There are plenty of ground traits, but my level 50 fed can take EVERY SINGLE SPACE TRAIT. This is a problem because most people prefer space combat over ground, yet anyone who makes an all space build is going to have all the same traits as everyone else with that same career path.
Long story short, Cryptic, we need more space traits, a lot more. Both general traits and class specific traits.
That logic could be extended to everything.
I don't PvP.
A false choice is when something is so amazing you would be a complete idiot not to take it. Sure I can tank tac cubes without EPtS or Tac Team. Why on earth would I want to make the content twice as difficult on myself by doing so?
*sigh*
Accuracy becomes crit in PvE. Defense becomes damage not taken. Both are amazingly strong especially when compared to the alternatives. Bah this is still not the point I'm trying to get across let us try again.
If you offer a reward at the completion of a mission and one reward is worth half as much as the other but is labeled in a way that will confuse many that would make the act of choosing a reward a false choice in my book.
At the same time if you offer ability A that doubles my survivability and ability B that merely increases it sometimes by half I do not view that as a choice. But to each their own.
The problem about the plasmonic-leech-console is, that it's currently only available to KDF-characters.
So, we've got a few traits that really effect everybody directly (like "Accurate", "Elusive", "Peak Health" or "Lucky" for example), a few traits that apply only in specific circumstances (that you can't really calculate, "Astrophysicist" for example) and we've got bad jokes like warp-theorist (that you can calculate).
But the worst thing about the trait-revamp is that the developers seem to be not interested in feedback. Ok, they opened a Thread and asked for feedback, but they didn't offer any reward for doing so and they didn't reply to the Thread in the last 10 days.
It would have been so easy to say: "Come here, take a look at this, leave a comment and we'll send you a Dilithium-Mining-Claim (or something similar, that rewards you for the time) via mail on Holodeck". When this trait-revamp goes live, people will complain, this thread will be Cryptics excuse "There wasn't enough feedback".
If Star Trek Online was an Open-Source (GPL) Game, we would have a low-grind fork.
I'll leave others to debate the relative merits of the other traits, since they do affect everyone. My thoughts on how the space traits affect the Warbirds:
1.) Elusive: Very disappointed to see it wasn't available, but (even if nerfed as suggested) it would be mandatory for anyone wanting to use the battle cloak; when you deliberately drop your shields in combat, you want all the defense you can get. Besides, aren't Rommies supposed to be sneaksy?
2.) Accuracy: I wasn't really sure that it was relevant to Romulans, but as someone pointed out, bonus accuracy becomes crit chance, and that's very Romulan (precision strike after popping stealth). Good to see on the list.
3.) Conservation of Energy:
4.) Photonic Capacitor: Photonic Fleet, ESPECIALLY with a reduced cooldown, should provide valuable cover when cloaking (in addition to its usual added DPS and tanking). How Photonic Fleet interacts with the cloak will determine the actual value of this trait; if the fleet vanishes when I cloak, that's bad. If the fleet vanishes when I leave combat because I cloaked, that's not so bad. If the fleet keeps me in combat while cloaked, that could be good or bad depending on the circumstances, but probably closer to good. Pushing my levels now to find out.
5.) Engineer battery trait (whose name apparently has the Elusive trait because it's totally eluding me atm): Given the inherent power penalty for Warbird, but also given that they all come with AT LEAST 3 device slots, I can expect to be using batteries in pinch spots frequently, and the extra power bonus to other systems will definitely help cover that. Since it also adds during EPtX, if I slot the Maintenance Exocomp and a purple Warp Core Specialist DOff, I could get quite the power spike from this trait. Well worth it.
6.) Miracle Worker reset trait: Less useful than Photonic Capacitor, but would add a much appreciated level of survivability to my eng captain in Elite STFs, where one-shot-invisitorps fly freely.
No real comments on the ground traits.
Regarding the UI, I agree that traits you're not yet eligible for should show up greyed out so you can plan ahead with your trait choices.
Then you should be completely unconcerned about Accurate / Elusive.
I promise you, not taking these and playing only PvE - you will never notice the difference.
It's not like your example of "not taking tac team". Which is a poor example.
It's not even remotely close for PvE content.
I would think you'd know better than to post such an offhand, vague and somewhat facetious remark about something like ACC overflow.
I have characters without Accurate captain, who run CrtHx3 weapons in PvE.
They don't crit any less than the ones with Accurate Captain, and any discrepancies I've seen in combat parsings are so tiny as to be irrelevant.
To anyone who only plays PvE, feel free to never take Accurate/Elusive.
Neither you, nor your combat logs, will ever notice the difference.
Try skipping EPTS and TT for a few STFs. That, I think you will notice.
You've normalized access to Accurate/Elusive for most races, including Liberated Borg (Nice!).
I can not think of any valid reason to restrict Romulans from something that is both mechanically useful in PvP as well as thematically appropriate as "Elusive" for the Romulan Faction.
They make about the same level of difference a purple MK XII tac console or +shield HP console will make.
Those sell for 20+ Mill EC by the way.
But I am not 'concerned' I am simply offering feedback. My perspective is simple, they are faaar better than most other traits and I will take them on every single character I can for that reason. That is my feedback.
And on an off-topic note I must say I am beginning to get a bit sick and tired of the If you don't PVP you are not entitled to an opinion or to offer feedback vibe I've been getting from some people lately. Get off you high horse, I choose not to partake in an activity the game has devoted very few resources too both in designing and balancing content or mechanics for. Instead I PuG it up with the masses and enjoy the game. That does not make my view any more or less relevant to the conversation. And being the type of person I am I do try to look at the issues from the PvE Hero, Casual Player, and PvPer perspectives.
Did this console go away? I can't find it.
Dont get me wrong i like the fact that my klingon fed will be getting 4 traits for the price of 1 trait spot , and according to the traits there buffed even higher but i dont want others nerfed to not compete , like my Gorn who focuses on ripping a enemy apart
- The Respec-Button-warning is working (good work).
- You can create a Bolian with the new Efficent-trait of +30 (good work), but my existing liberated Klingon has got only the +15 Bonus (that's not good).
I still can't find the console for free respec-tokens. Have you forgotten to place it in the new Drozana-interior?
If Star Trek Online was an Open-Source (GPL) Game, we would have a low-grind fork.
OLD traits:
http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u389/kapla1755/closed%20beta/2013-05-06_00006.jpg
NEW traits:
http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u389/kapla1755/closed%20beta/2013-05-06_00003.jpg
someone stole my best racial trait :eek: please,please replace it
I actually like Delta Rising.
You can find/contact me in game as @PatricianVetinari. Playing STO since Feb 2010.
Photonic fleet trait is still worthless, (and it will stay that way as long as photonic fleet itself stays useless)
Medical vanguard still feel like a weird engineering trait hybrid thing
And field researcher (the +25% damage versus debuffed and controlled ennemies) well I tried all I could and I can't see any difference in my damage output with or without this trait, so yeah, broken and not functional that one.
With release about 10 days away, it's getting kind of scary.
Don't think we can presently unless it's well hidden.
What Cryptic should consider before releasing anything.
Yeah... I couldn't find a way to do that.
No, it's not hidden, you've got to create the character and can use a respec-token while you are in the Tutorial...
If Star Trek Online was an Open-Source (GPL) Game, we would have a low-grind fork.
That's kind of bad design if I'm honest and means that there is none in character creator - We used to be able to choose our traits, why do they deny us this right now?
What Cryptic should consider before releasing anything.
It's simple: Because the players chose the wrong traits on creation of their characters, now Cryptic chooses the wrong traits for us, the only difference is that you will be able to change the traits whenever you want to.
You won't be able to change the race/species/gender for some more time. But you will be able to get "Techie" for your Hull-Regeneration and -Heals, when LoR hits Holodeck.
I wonder, when will they finally really balance the traits? This Thread allready lists weak traits, but the massive wave of complaints will begin with the open-beta for LoR and the test-weekend. Making the test-weekend the last weekend before LoR goes live would give the DEVs no time for Bug-fixing and rebalancing...
If Star Trek Online was an Open-Source (GPL) Game, we would have a low-grind fork.