Since we seen Romulans with and without the Ridges, even in TNG (Sela). It's safe to say that there was indeed different types of Romulans (like how the Human race has variations).
Sela was half-human. So no, you can't draw that conclusion from that evidence.
Perhaps, but given that people in Star Trek can apparently have cosmetic surgery willy-nilly to look like another species, and it apparently happens quite often in espionage, not conclusive.
Does the audience ever see a non-ridged Romulan on Romulus, or on-board a Romulan ship? Only in TOS, to my knowledge.
I think it's pretty heavily implied that the ridges on Romulans are just one of many evolutionary changes that romulans underwent after leavign Vulcan, along with losing their telepathy, and their superior strength. Romulans and Vulcans are seperate species, and while they are definately genetically similar, they are not just vulcans with forehead ridges and oddly tinged skin.
I'm noticing a a lot of TOS fans in this topic disparaging the TNG/DS9/VOY era romulans. I see TOS-era, TOS movie-era, TNG era, ENT-era, and nutrek as being different settings really. There are some pretty huge divergances and retcons between all of them, and honestly-they don't mesh very well. That doesn't mean that they are necessarily bad because of that though, I enjoy TNG-era, TOS-era, and TOS movie-era quite well. I don't pretend that one of them holds a monopoly over the others though, and I think it's rather insulting to state that TOS holds precedence over the others. It's important to keep in mind that TOS had a serious budget, and makeup and prosthetics were pretty much in their infancy. A lot of the reason why X in TOS doesn't look like X in TNG can be chalked up to budget and technology restraints, and lastly, lets be honest, Theres' a pretty huge tonal difference between the series as well.
I think it's pretty heavily implied that the ridges on Romulans are just one of many evolutionary changes that romulans underwent after leavign Vulcan, along with losing their telepathy, and their superior strength. Romulans and Vulcans are seperate species, and while they are definately genetically similar, they are not just vulcans with forehead ridges and oddly tinged skin.
No it's not. There's no implication of anything other than "We have money now so we're putting ridges on all the aliens' foreheads."
Also, that is not how evolution works. Even if there were a handful of Vulcans with prominent forehead ridges, or they appeared from genetic mutation after exile, what possible competitive advantage could a couple of V-shaped bones on the skull provide to a space-faring species, so much so that it has completely dominated non-ridged foreheads? We already know Vulcans don't headbutt each other for the right to breed; I really doubt the Romulans would take up the practice after leaving Vulcan.
Humans as we know them have been around for at least 50,000 years and yet they haven't branched into different species, despite living in all sorts of different climes and conditions.
Humans as we know them have been around for at least 50,000 years and yet they haven't branched into different species, despite living in all sorts of different climes and conditions.
Really ? That's weird, Asian eyes, black skin, very tall Masai,... There are a lot of differences amongst humans. Those small changes comes from an evolutionary process, even if it's not big.
Really ? That's weird, Asian eyes, black skin, very tall Masai,... There are a lot of differences amongst humans. Those small changes comes from an evolutionary process, even if it's not big.
Next Generation era spy impersonating a ridgeless Vulcan. Plastic surgery is the go to method and has been used to hide distinctive features far more dramatic than head ridges.
Perhaps, but given that people in Star Trek can apparently have cosmetic surgery willy-nilly to look like another species, and it apparently happens quite often in espionage, not conclusive.
Does the audience ever see a non-ridged Romulan on Romulus, or on-board a Romulan ship? Only in TOS, to my knowledge.
The ones seen in the TOS movies have no ridges either and well it doesn't really count in this conversation but the Romulans in the JJ Abrams Trek movie were ridgeless as well.
I think it's pretty heavily implied that the ridges on Romulans are just one of many evolutionary changes that romulans underwent after leavign Vulcan, along with losing their telepathy, and their superior strength. Romulans and Vulcans are seperate species, and while they are definately genetically similar, they are not just vulcans with forehead ridges and oddly tinged skin.
I'm noticing a a lot of TOS fans in this topic disparaging the TNG/DS9/VOY era romulans. I see TOS-era, TOS movie-era, TNG era, ENT-era, and nutrek as being different settings really. There are some pretty huge divergances and retcons between all of them, and honestly-they don't mesh very well. That doesn't mean that they are necessarily bad because of that though, I enjoy TNG-era, TOS-era, and TOS movie-era quite well. I don't pretend that one of them holds a monopoly over the others though, and I think it's rather insulting to state that TOS holds precedence over the others. It's important to keep in mind that TOS had a serious budget, and makeup and prosthetics were pretty much in their infancy. A lot of the reason why X in TOS doesn't look like X in TNG can be chalked up to budget and technology restraints, and lastly, lets be honest, Theres' a pretty huge tonal difference between the series as well.
If you knew what the word precedence meant then you would realize that TOS in fact does hold precedence over the other series
No the Romulans are not a different species. They are simple a different nationality of Vulcan
DS9 and Voyager have the messed up Romulans because TNG well messed up and they were produced by the same people who did TNG.
As for them being separate realities both DS9 and Voyager each had a TOS episode and of course TNG has several TOS characters on the show.
No it's not. There's no implication of anything other than "We have money now so we're putting ridges on all the aliens' foreheads."
Also, that is not how evolution works. Even if there were a handful of Vulcans with prominent forehead ridges, or they appeared from genetic mutation after exile, what possible competitive advantage could a couple of V-shaped bones on the skull provide to a space-faring species, so much so that it has completely dominated non-ridged foreheads? We already know Vulcans don't headbutt each other for the right to breed; I really doubt the Romulans would take up the practice after leaving Vulcan.
Humans as we know them have been around for at least 50,000 years and yet they haven't branched into different species, despite living in all sorts of different climes and conditions.
I'm not sure you know as much about evolution as you think you do....
Jaguar's have spots, tigers have stripes and lions have neither, evolutionary advantage? Ehhh... Dromedaries have one hump but Bactrians have two. Is one hump or two better for the species as a whole, and if so, why haven't the other species died out?
The fact of the matter is that evolution is only ever a definitive factor when a trait is deleterious or otherwise effects selection, something innocuous like a head ridge can happen randomly and be fostered by a small enough population size.
And who knows, maybe they'll explain away smooth headed "Vulcan-lookalike" Romulans as the result of some viral super soldier experiment gone horribly wrong.
I'm not sure you know as much about evolution as you think you do....
Jaguar's have spots, tigers have stripes and lions have neither, evolutionary advantage? Ehhh... Dromedaries have one hump but Bactrians have two. Is one hump or two better for the species as a whole, and if so, why haven't the other species died out?
The fact of the matter is that evolution is only ever a definitive factor when a trait is deleterious or otherwise effects selection, something innocuous like a head ridge can happen randomly and be fostered by a small enough population size.
And yet there is only 100 years between TOS where every single Romulan we see has no ridge and TNG where they all do. That is far to soon for evolution to make such a drastic change.
And yet there is only 100 years between TOS where every single Romulan we see has no ridge and TNG where they all do. That is far to soon for evolution to make such a drastic change.
Far less confusing than the change Klingons underwent between TOS and TNG. Should I start going through the various different explanations that people have cooked up to explain that biological shift?
Far less confusing than the change Klingons underwent between TOS and TNG. Should I start going through the various different explanations that people have cooked up to explain that biological shift?
Um, it's not necessary?
Um anyways, on New Romulus, we see ridged and unridged Romulans side by side.
♪ I'm going around not in circles but in spirographs.
It's pretty much this hard to keep just one timeline intact. ♪
Like I said in another thread, it's So'Hot, temporal daughter of T'TRIBBLE
Nice signature!
Still.... vulcans, eldar, even to a lesser extent, protoss, were based on elves.
Durr-hurr giant surprise.
So I would be surprised and upset they did not look properly elf like.
People complain that "she is in space" . Well... it seems like a picture with her superimposed over a planet with a warship nearby. Obviously with her walking on something, and with air. Not because of the wind, but because she does not look like choking . Tee-hee!
As for their ridges, it can be a simple change. Humans can have all manner of skincolours, romulans may or may not get ridges... seems fine to me.
Let us wear Swimsuits on Foundry maps or bridges please! I would pay zen for that.
It could be a racial trait Vulcans form extra sunny areas that weren't black grew a little ridge to shield their eyes from the sun or something.
Also the Ridged and Nemesis uniformed Romulans in ENT could be time travellers from after Hobus trying to undermine the Federation and Klingon Empire in order to create a stronger future or something. Possibly explaining why the 22nd century BOP look so modern and have cloaks.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Far less confusing than the change Klingons underwent between TOS and TNG. Should I start going through the various different explanations that people have cooked up to explain that biological shift?
And also, the coloring of big cats and number of humps on a camel not just superficial differences and are related to their respective environments; not only have those traits evolved over a far, far longer period of time than exists between TOS and TNG, but those are animals that rely on their physical traits to survive, not technologically advanced species capable of interstellar travel. Relying on tools means not relying on how many humps or forehead ridges one has to survive/procreate.
It first started with "Handsome Phaser Guy" then it went to "Tripping or Falling Over Boobtastic Phaser Chick"
Now we have "Romulan-Elf Lady"
In short, her ears are TOO big and the points to defined/high. I'm guessing that they wanted the ears to be noticeable, hence the oversize, but c'mon...this isn't LOTR Online!
What defines seperation of species appears to be very subjective. There are enough differences between asians, blacks, and whites to argue they are seperate species. Does it matter?
For all we know (and for all I care) the romulans have a huge thing in their culture where they implant the ridges, or due cranial manipulation during childhood. Again, does it matter?
I like the TNG era Romulans. Others like the Nu and TOS types. Good on ya, but stop the whining. TOS had basically no budget. Gene said he wanted to do the whole facial makeup on the Klingons for a long time, and once he had the money he did it. He may have decided the same thing in the early TNG years for Rommies.
_____________________________________________
"Second star on the right, and straight on till morning."
Ya, lets not go off the deep end. I never said they are, but when you look at other animal types, the number of differences between declared species are fewer than the number of differences between human races. There are no hard set rules for what differentiates one species of animal from another very closely related one.
If you want to go off the deep end and start saying how someone, somewhere, is going to declare asians, or whites a seperate species, and thus inelligible for respectful treatment, there's a proper place for that, and it's not here.
I made mention of this because people are under the impression that a species must have a certain level of difference from another according to science, and this just isn't true . Iirc, this hard ruling breaks down at the order level, but it's been awhile since I walked into this arena.
_____________________________________________
"Second star on the right, and straight on till morning."
What defines seperation of species appears to be very subjective. There are enough differences between asians, blacks, and whites to argue they are seperate species. Does it matter?
.
:eek: there are so many things wrong with that statement it's not even funny.
:eek: there are so many things wrong with that statement it's not even funny.
Be like me and simply forget you even saw it. My eyes nearly blew several blood vessels when I first laid eyes on it. Nonetheless I simply chalked it up to unmitigated ignorance and have since moved on. My blood pressure is much better right now.
If you are looking for an excellent PvE fleet consider: Omega Combat Division today.
Former member of the Cryptic Family & FriendsTesting Team. Sadly, one day, it simply vanished - without a word or trace...
You know? A thought just occured to me upon reading some of this thread.
That some out there, somewhere... is imagining right now what it would be like to nibble on those ears... :eek:
*sings* "I like Gammera! He's so neat!!! He is full of turtle meat!!!"
"Hah! You are doomed! You're only armed with that pathetic excuse for a musical instrument!!!" *the Savage Beast moments before Lonnehart the Bard used music to soothe him... then beat him to death with his Fat Lute*
You know? A thought just occured to me upon reading some of this thread.
That some out there, somewhere... is imagining right now what it would be like to nibble on those ears... :eek:
Well done. I think you just invented a test to investigate the true nature of the features in question. Don't take my word for it though, it is after all up to the taste of the investigator.
The ability to mate and produce viable offspring isn't the only thing used to determine species seperation. Interestingly enough, that's the only thing you see repeated all over the internet. How about that.
Here's a short article that blurbs about some of the difficulties in this definition.
Comments
Sela was half-human. So no, you can't draw that conclusion from that evidence.
Perhaps, but given that people in Star Trek can apparently have cosmetic surgery willy-nilly to look like another species, and it apparently happens quite often in espionage, not conclusive.
Does the audience ever see a non-ridged Romulan on Romulus, or on-board a Romulan ship? Only in TOS, to my knowledge.
I'm noticing a a lot of TOS fans in this topic disparaging the TNG/DS9/VOY era romulans. I see TOS-era, TOS movie-era, TNG era, ENT-era, and nutrek as being different settings really. There are some pretty huge divergances and retcons between all of them, and honestly-they don't mesh very well. That doesn't mean that they are necessarily bad because of that though, I enjoy TNG-era, TOS-era, and TOS movie-era quite well. I don't pretend that one of them holds a monopoly over the others though, and I think it's rather insulting to state that TOS holds precedence over the others. It's important to keep in mind that TOS had a serious budget, and makeup and prosthetics were pretty much in their infancy. A lot of the reason why X in TOS doesn't look like X in TNG can be chalked up to budget and technology restraints, and lastly, lets be honest, Theres' a pretty huge tonal difference between the series as well.
No it's not. There's no implication of anything other than "We have money now so we're putting ridges on all the aliens' foreheads."
Also, that is not how evolution works. Even if there were a handful of Vulcans with prominent forehead ridges, or they appeared from genetic mutation after exile, what possible competitive advantage could a couple of V-shaped bones on the skull provide to a space-faring species, so much so that it has completely dominated non-ridged foreheads? We already know Vulcans don't headbutt each other for the right to breed; I really doubt the Romulans would take up the practice after leaving Vulcan.
Humans as we know them have been around for at least 50,000 years and yet they haven't branched into different species, despite living in all sorts of different climes and conditions.
Those are different races, not different species.
Next Generation era spy impersonating a ridgeless Vulcan. Plastic surgery is the go to method and has been used to hide distinctive features far more dramatic than head ridges.
The ones seen in the TOS movies have no ridges either and well it doesn't really count in this conversation but the Romulans in the JJ Abrams Trek movie were ridgeless as well.
If you knew what the word precedence meant then you would realize that TOS in fact does hold precedence over the other series
No the Romulans are not a different species. They are simple a different nationality of Vulcan
DS9 and Voyager have the messed up Romulans because TNG well messed up and they were produced by the same people who did TNG.
As for them being separate realities both DS9 and Voyager each had a TOS episode and of course TNG has several TOS characters on the show.
I'm not sure you know as much about evolution as you think you do....
Jaguar's have spots, tigers have stripes and lions have neither, evolutionary advantage? Ehhh... Dromedaries have one hump but Bactrians have two. Is one hump or two better for the species as a whole, and if so, why haven't the other species died out?
The fact of the matter is that evolution is only ever a definitive factor when a trait is deleterious or otherwise effects selection, something innocuous like a head ridge can happen randomly and be fostered by a small enough population size.
And who knows, maybe they'll explain away smooth headed "Vulcan-lookalike" Romulans as the result of some viral super soldier experiment gone horribly wrong.
And yet there is only 100 years between TOS where every single Romulan we see has no ridge and TNG where they all do. That is far to soon for evolution to make such a drastic change.
Far less confusing than the change Klingons underwent between TOS and TNG. Should I start going through the various different explanations that people have cooked up to explain that biological shift?
http://www.news.com.au/breaking-news/gingers-extinct-in-100-years-say-scientists/story-e6frfkp9-1111114243424
Um, it's not necessary?
Um anyways, on New Romulus, we see ridged and unridged Romulans side by side.
It's pretty much this hard to keep just one timeline intact. ♪
Nice signature!
Still.... vulcans, eldar, even to a lesser extent, protoss, were based on elves.
Durr-hurr giant surprise.
So I would be surprised and upset they did not look properly elf like.
People complain that "she is in space" . Well... it seems like a picture with her superimposed over a planet with a warship nearby. Obviously with her walking on something, and with air. Not because of the wind, but because she does not look like choking . Tee-hee!
As for their ridges, it can be a simple change. Humans can have all manner of skincolours, romulans may or may not get ridges... seems fine to me.
Also the Ridged and Nemesis uniformed Romulans in ENT could be time travellers from after Hobus trying to undermine the Federation and Klingon Empire in order to create a stronger future or something. Possibly explaining why the 22nd century BOP look so modern and have cloaks.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
That "ginger" story is complete bollocks.
http://science.howstuffworks.com/life/genetic/redhead-extinction.htm
And also, the coloring of big cats and number of humps on a camel not just superficial differences and are related to their respective environments; not only have those traits evolved over a far, far longer period of time than exists between TOS and TNG, but those are animals that rely on their physical traits to survive, not technologically advanced species capable of interstellar travel. Relying on tools means not relying on how many humps or forehead ridges one has to survive/procreate.
Actually, this is or soon will be NWN Online.
What defines seperation of species appears to be very subjective. There are enough differences between asians, blacks, and whites to argue they are seperate species. Does it matter?
For all we know (and for all I care) the romulans have a huge thing in their culture where they implant the ridges, or due cranial manipulation during childhood. Again, does it matter?
I like the TNG era Romulans. Others like the Nu and TOS types. Good on ya, but stop the whining. TOS had basically no budget. Gene said he wanted to do the whole facial makeup on the Klingons for a long time, and once he had the money he did it. He may have decided the same thing in the early TNG years for Rommies.
"Second star on the right, and straight on till morning."
U.S.S. Weatherlight
If you want to go off the deep end and start saying how someone, somewhere, is going to declare asians, or whites a seperate species, and thus inelligible for respectful treatment, there's a proper place for that, and it's not here.
I made mention of this because people are under the impression that a species must have a certain level of difference from another according to science, and this just isn't true . Iirc, this hard ruling breaks down at the order level, but it's been awhile since I walked into this arena.
"Second star on the right, and straight on till morning."
U.S.S. Weatherlight
Commander Sirol
I'd be happy cause the varity is the spice of the Beta Quadrant!
:eek: there are so many things wrong with that statement it's not even funny.
Be like me and simply forget you even saw it. My eyes nearly blew several blood vessels when I first laid eyes on it. Nonetheless I simply chalked it up to unmitigated ignorance and have since moved on. My blood pressure is much better right now.
ingame: @.Spartan
Original Cryptic Forum Name: Spartan (member #124)
The Glorious, Kirk’s Protegè
That some out there, somewhere... is imagining right now what it would be like to nibble on those ears... :eek:
"Hah! You are doomed! You're only armed with that pathetic excuse for a musical instrument!!!" *the Savage Beast moments before Lonnehart the Bard used music to soothe him... then beat him to death with his Fat Lute*
Well done. I think you just invented a test to investigate the true nature of the features in question. Don't take my word for it though, it is after all up to the taste of the investigator.
---
Here's a short article that blurbs about some of the difficulties in this definition.
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evosite/evo101/VA1BioSpeciesConcept.shtml
"Second star on the right, and straight on till morning."
U.S.S. Weatherlight
I had an Orc BOff once.
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