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fed cruisers: beams or turrets?
derpmeow
Member Posts: 9 Arc User
Nubcaek question, basically what it says on the tin. Breaking it down a little further, what does better damage, 6 beams + 2 other (torp/mine) or 8 turrets? (I don't actually know the optimal turret layout, feel free to correct.) What has more procs? What's more useful/what would you prefer to see on your team?
Let's say you have the right BO abilities (crf + csv/bo + faw as appropriate), and at least some ability to mitigate energy drain (EPS transfer, NI, EPtW, weapons batt etc).
I know cruisers are capable of a reasonable amount of damage, whilst not necessarily being appropriate for the DPS monsta role. Still, nobody wants a ******n brick on their team. I'm kind of just feeling out the mechanics of the game, so what d'you think?
Let's say you have the right BO abilities (crf + csv/bo + faw as appropriate), and at least some ability to mitigate energy drain (EPS transfer, NI, EPtW, weapons batt etc).
I know cruisers are capable of a reasonable amount of damage, whilst not necessarily being appropriate for the DPS monsta role. Still, nobody wants a ******n brick on their team. I'm kind of just feeling out the mechanics of the game, so what d'you think?
Post edited by derpmeow on
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They are capable of middling damage. But those cruisers that do so are not equipping 8 turrets.
A. Turrets are EXPENSIVE. No matter which ones you go with, you'll be paying out the nose for the good ones. I went Polarized Disruptors, and the only reason I didn't go totally broke is because I had fleet mates who cracked open more boxes than god.
B. Anything to boost your damage is going to be a requirement. Cannon abilities (rapid fire and scatter volley), attack patterns, batteries, etc, etc. You don't do a LOT of damage compared to an all beam boat, but your damage comes from all 8 weapons regardless of the direction your facing. Even the slow to turn Odyssey can handle that.
C. Tacs can make the best use of an all turret build. They have all the damage boosting abilities (attack pattern Alpha and Fire on My Mark) to make it worth the effort. Sci and Eng are going to be weak, probably too weak to make the effort worth it.
D. Choose the ship carefully. I went with a free Odyssey because I had it and couldn't think of anything else to do with it. Better to pick a ship with much stronger tactical options (more rapid fire). Assault Cruisers (any of them) are probably a better choice.
E. Against other players, you'll be a nuisance, but not much more. Best effect is working as an anti-fighter platform, or harassing. With a good tank build behind the turrets, you could last forever, but players will target someone else and then descend on you as group.
F. The NPCs do NOT know how to handle it. At all. You'll melt most NPC shields like butter. The Borg will remain challenging (best way to handle them is to kill quickly, which you can't do easily), and the assimilated Klink ships in Cure will be a bit of an issue (they redirect their shields). Otherwise though, you'll own most of NPC ships in ways you wouldn't expect. It helps that you never have to do a pass and can just fly in circles.
G. The one thing that made my ship a threat in PvP is grabbing just one SubNuc duty officer. Look it up, they're expensive but with every shot always hitting, it's completely worth it. We had a pairs arena match with a fleet mate and he was cursing it.
H. Get SOMETHING that can give you a punch. I went with isometric charge, but anything to allow you to exploit the shield stripping you're going to be doing is going to make you far more deadly than you would imagine.
For the record, I use a full Borg Mk XI set, an extra tractor beam and directed energy modulation (for when I don't get through the shields right away). My ship isn't a beast, but it's easy to underestimate it and get ripped apart when you do.
I would suggest against it if you're not a Tac or you don't have the funds.
Cruisers doing well...not escort damage, but very respectably damage around 75% of what your average escort poured out.
I myself run A Fleet Excelsior with 2 dual beams front with the Experimental beam and the Hyper plasma torpedo front, while 2 beam arrays, cutting beam and Omega torped rear. I use 100/100 power on shields and weapons.
I changed to this plasma build from a 3-3 full beam arrays one, and it seems better. Perhaps less energy drain, or the romulan torpedo making its mark.
Also, going full power to shields when tanking some boss is very recommended, as well as going full power to weapons when firing against something that does not fire back, like a transformer.
Also, what duty officer gives subnucleonic beam? I never heard of such a thing.
Ain't Nobody Got Time for That
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
On the other hand if you can load up with >6 beams and you can keep moving and you can keep energy high its very effective, and will do the same amount of damage as 4 DHCs shooting you.
Load beam arrays, preferrably with the experimental romulan beam so you can have eight arrays going at once with a manageable drain (sub that for a DBB or torpedo if you lack it). Fit a Fire at Will in your tac slots somewhere and keep EptW (and preferrably Aux2Bat and other weapon power increasers/weapon drain reducers) up at all times. Enjoy massive broadside damage for little effort.
Got a SC/Turret/Torpedo set on my Ambassador refit and actually manage to do pretty good with it in elite. Not on par with my escorts, but it's a viable set nonetheless.
As for me? I tend to go with the traditional 5/2/1 or 6/1/1 BA/torp setup (the other weapon is the cutting beam). It works quite well.
Never messed with turrets much other than the DC/DHCs mounted on my KDF Battlecruisers. And those have a very narrow arc. But can really chew up your target once you got it locked on.
USS Casinghead NCC 92047 launched 2350
Fleet Admiral Stowe - Dominion War Vet.
For example you absolutely have to keep weapon power at at least 100 to do decent damage in a cruiser, and have ample tools to do so... but that's true for both beams and turrets, and you'll do far more damage broadsiding over fairly wide arcs with beam arrays than you'll do from any angle with turrets. And it isn't really that hard to keep a broadside angle in PVE (especially since those arcs extend above/below your ship too) unless you're in something with a crappy turn rate like a Galaxy or something which you shouldn't be because I assume you know what you're doing. Similarly, you really don't want to mix weapon types if you can help it since you're getting far less effect from your active tactical skills, and you especially want to make the most of fire at will. It's both AoE and crazy single target damage and is vastly underrated, even with its accuracy issues.
While you often see builds loading a DBB or torpedo or something, this is solely because having eight beam banks is generally too much power drain to handle, and it's part of why the experimental romulan beam is so amazing even if you're not using plasma weaponry, since it drains no power, adds to your broadside, and is affected by beam skills. I'd really recommend against a rear torpedo, but could always throw an omega cutting beam there for some extra damage at all angles and the chance for the amazing 2-piece proc with the console.
My ships usually have a rear torpedo for those shots when shields are down. Or when you have a situation for it. Many times I made good use for a rear torpedo. I found another rather nasty weapon to use. Is the Breen cluster torpedo. I put that as a rear weapon for my Breen ship. And that sucker packs a wallop. I saw it do all kinds of damage to a ship.
USS Casinghead NCC 92047 launched 2350
Fleet Admiral Stowe - Dominion War Vet.
Turrets arent the answer to everything (my support cruiser uses 4 beams and 4 torps). But 6 turrets > 3 beams anyday, wishing beams were powerful is not going to win anything.
70 degrees. Bigger than the DHC window and easy to maintain so long as you're moving and turning, even in a cruiser. I think you underestimate how easy it is to orbit a target and broadside, even in the most sluggish cruiser.
Many cruiser players counter that by buying the regent for the wide angle quantum torpedo. Great little weapon.
If a player isn't moving all the time as a matter of course (y'know, to use their defense bonus?), then they're already doing it wrong. Sitting still and shooting makes you an easy target in PvE and PvP.
So you establish that high weapons energy is good for all weapons, but it's a MUST for beams? I'm quite sure that everyone not using a science ship will tell you that high weapons energy is a must for any and every setup.
At least you can see that part is true! Actually if you use the romulan set with plasma beams, you can use 6 beams and only suffer the power drain of 5 since the experimental plasma beam drains zero energy.
But some ships, you want to stay away from the enemy entirely, and maybe sit in a corner lobbing heavy weapons. It's the opposite of the EWP play, instead of trying to get close you are trying to stay away because you're an immobile brick that cannot turn. Beams are a poor choice for that tactic because they require you to move the ship just to maintain damage output, and on a slow ship you will be constantly losing half the arcs at which point you are doing TRIBBLE damage with half of the TRIBBLE beams. Turrets are better for this kind of thing because they will give you coverage everywhere, and you can fire all of them on a target while trying to reposition for next attack or while running from something that decides it doesnt like you. Very specific application.
And there are other cases where beams are better. If you can fly a circle around a target at 4k without getting dragged into a close-up fight and keep 6+ beams on target then yeah that will do good damage. But you have to be content to do that and not change position frequently, and not get focused by the target who decides to take half your beams out of play.
Just different playstyles, but as a rule, beams are good to have when you can hold a broadside but they are terrible when you cant
My thanks to the KDF for confirming that all turrets is a bad idea.
Why the exception for DBBs? I assumed you don't mix cannons and beams because of needing the different tac boff skills...what's different with DBBs?
Really? 6 turrets on crf beats 3 beams on bo? (with NI or something on, of course.) That's an honest inquiry; like I said, nubcaek here.
Currently on an eng character, for the record, so skillset is strong on keeping power up rather than raw dakka.
I disagree I do very well with it. You only one or two turrets
There's no such thing as BO on 3 beams, since it only activates on one of them. A better comparison would be BFaW vs CSV. Better still is just look at the base damage when no specials are available. In terms of base damage alone, 6 mk XII turrets = (132 * 6) = 792 cumulative DPS, while 3 mk XII beams = (176 * 3) = 528 cumulative DPS. Obviously if you are able to hold the broadside then the 6 beams will be better at (176 * 6) = 1056. But its the part where you cant hold it that kills you, as I keep saying. Average DPS for 6 beams that are coming in and out of broadside is (528+1056)/2 = 792, which is exactly the same as what you would get from full turrets. Depends on how you plan to fly the ship.
I imagine for example 8 disruptor turrets would debuff a targets damage resistance by quite a bit, I'm guessing more so than using 8 beams since I believe it is worked out by each shot rather than volley.
Again this is all guesswork, I'm far from the best source for facts n' figures
Proc is based on firing cycle or something, so there's no change there. However, turrets can increase their chances to proc through Rapid Fire or Scatter Volley. It's also quite likely that they'll proc more anyhow because all 8 turrets are always firing on a target.
3 single cannons fore + exp. Rom torp
3 turrets aft + Exp. Beam array.
I usually would use Beam arrays but because the BOFF power of Beam arrays a somehow unpractical in my opinion.
So i use cannons with Rapid Fire or Scatter Volley depending on Mission/STF.
I just find it much better to fire more shots at one target than just one big blast that could miss.
On the other hand, using Scatter volley raises much less attention than Fire at will. Especially when doing missions like SB24 i find it extremey dangerous to use FAW.
So in my opinion using Scatter volley is more precise and Rapid fire is likely more save to do more damage. At least for my playstyle both powers are much more adequate.
I just wish they would unlock FAW and BO for cannons and RF and SV for Beam weapons.
Normally i wouldn consider using single cannons, in favour to beam weapons but using a cruiser in STO is masochistig enough for my taste. So i try to make the best out of it at least.
You can combine one DBB with DHCs for the BO1 on a fleet defiant or fleet prometheus, but other than that, you usually won't combine beams with any cannon type.
Why DBBs? Well DBBs are a forward damage based weapon. You can't broadside with them (90 degree firing arc), so you usually will be facing your target 70-80% of the time if you're using DBBs. Normally you then add on the Kinetic Cutting Beam, but that will still leave you with 3 slots on the back open. Now a lot of players put regular BAs there, but I usually will stick turrets there, since again, I will be facing my target most of the time, so why waste the damage? And until they come up with non-shuttle 360 degree beams (other than the cutting beam), I will continue to do so. But that is the ONLY time I will ever combine turrets with beams.
Oh and no I don't do PVP so that might be why as well.
Really though, after tinkering around with setups, my favorite cruiser setup is probably twin DBB up front with 3 beam arrays aft and a torpedo front and aft.
Save your Beam Overloads for either knocking down a shield facing to sink a torpedo into a hostile hull, or to finish off a weakened ship that is outside of your torpedo arcs. Torpedo spreads are your AE attack and useful for quickly grabbing initial aggro. Fire at Will is really too random to use reliably. Tractor Repulsors make a better point defense - in addition to offering 'zone control' and being able to tear down bigger borg ships quite quickly. They do have a notable learning curve to use effectively and not grief everyone with though.
The fourth forward weapon slot is a bit a wild card that you can put whatever catches your fancy into. Be that a second torp tube, a DHC for extra forward bite if the ship allows it, a beam array for extra broadsiding power(syncing fore and aft arrays is always a pain though), an experimental reputation weapon - whichever works for ya. Alternatively, skipping the aft beam arrays and going quad turrets works surprisingly well also(4 is enough to give you an almost un-interrupted stream of cannon fire), but you lose the 'punch' of beam overload.
It's all about balance. Full turret means you can hit anything, any time but you sacrifice fire power. If you go against small vessels or carriers this set can actually work.
Beams give more fire power, but you sacrifice the full arc advantage. You have to maneuver to use it optimal. With many cruisers moving like a tub of lard that's not easy.
I run a gimmick set using sc/chrono flux at front and turret/chrono flux rear. I find this set has good fire power and it drains enemy movement/crew. This negates some of the disadvantages of a cruiser. A good compromise.