...with the possible exception of cruiser-to-cruiser actions.
Which basically go on until the end of days, when trumpets sound and the apocalypse destroys the world. Or until one of the players fall asleep at their computer and goes afk.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
So, stop pretending you are a Sci-boat and drop the torps/DBB, buy yourself some nice [Acc]x2/3 beams and have fun. (The tractor mines are probably the best thing that has ever happened to cruiser captains anywhere; forcing Tacs to pop APO early since 2011)
Ow man, those tractor mines are the scourge of civilized humanity, and any ship I witness dropping these becomes the first ship I try to kill. Be warned, I only need to pop APO once to line up my guns, then you die.
Doesn't really work, or work as well as I'd like. I've found more success with turrets than I have had with beam arrays. Cannons of any form simply blow beam arrays out of the water when it comes to overall utility and effective DPS, with the possible exception of cruiser-to-cruiser actions.
ya, thats still not going to do anything. doesn't mater, its not spike. it doesn't mater how strong the pressure is, if its not spike, its doesn't mater.
the point of cannons in cannon was to take the firepower of a cruiser & fit it into a smaller platform, in order to do this they had to go back to using pulses rather than beams.
but simply making beams stronger wont make it more cannon since you would just end up with beam escorts that shouldnt mechanically exist for the very reason they created cannons for escorts.
this is why i push for ship stats by ship size, anyone could make a siege machine full of cannons that couldnt turn to get them in arc like a smaller ship could but had the defence to off set, then smaller destroyers could be used to take their heavy takeayeartoturn backsides out,
while beam boats would be able to use other techniques ,using the increased options granted by not needing to point your ship at them to fire.
I wasn't talking about simply making Beams more stronger.
My point was to introduce special Starfleet Crusier beam arrays that do more DHC like damage, so cruisers could finally go away from doing "damage-over-time" to a more burst like damage, similar to escorts but yet different.
Escorts still could do more punctural damage at a very short time, being able to attack a weakend shield facing to destroy hull.
Starfleet Cruisers due their nature of being slower turning need to have wider fireing arcs, but also do burst damage. This cold be archieved by changing beam arrays damage to do more damage per shot and increasing their "reload" time.
Starfleet Cruisers could get a unique feature, similar to science vessels sensor scan. The cruisers "special" feature could be a summing up of fore and aft energy beam array weapons to one single beam array each.
Those special Cruiser beams could be restricted to starfleet Cruisers only, maybe allowing science vessels and Klingon Crusiers to equip just one or two weapons like this. But Escorts shouldn't be allowed to equip them, since they almost can exclusively equip DHCs.
How big should be their exact damage output?
How long should be the "reload time" of those weapons?
To be honest, i don't know, other people are much more qualified to estimate things like that.
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
I've tried everything I can think of to pump out some reasonable damage, as an engineer captain in a cruiser.
DBB fore and arrays aft, cannon cruiser with aux 2 batt DEM, maxed energy weapon skills...
I've even tried a turret cruiser, and found to my horror that the damage output with Cannon Scatter Valley and DEM is much higher than with beams. In spite of this, I still fail to make any noticeable impact, with most opponents resisting the damage to their shields while their repair measures overcoming any damage I can inflict using DEM. When I approach others about the deplorable situation involving cruisers and beam arrays, I mostly get sympathetic nods. Other times, I get told by people that "durr, cruisers are for support" and "lol, noob trying to dps with a cruiser".
Now, I've come to the conclusion that the latter are right. Why should I bother trying to shoot with a cruiser? It doesn't seem like I do any damage anyways.
That's why I am now going into PvP almost completely unarmed.
So I bought myself a cheap Star Cruiser off the exchange, and loaded up boffs with support abilities. The only concessions that I have made to offensive capability come in the form of a Tractor Beam, Harghpeng, Tractor Beam Mine launcher, and Chroniton Mine Launcher. That, and the ability to blast EptE + Evasive Maneuvers along with an Aegis allows me to go so fast that anything that can match my speed will still have trouble shooting at me.
And you know what? It actually seems to make more of a difference than trying to shoot with weapons that miss half the time, fail to do any appreciable damage, and just generally take up valuable ability slots and energy. The extra speed that I have allows me to get to folks in trouble so much more easily, although the lack of turning capability is still an issue.
In light of this revelation, I propose that cruisers shall no longer have any weapon slots, and that whatever consoles devoted to Tactical functions are given up for Engineering and Science. They shall henceforth be called "Hospital Ships", "Heal Boats", and "Civvie Cruisers" in light of their non-combat role, for which they seem to be far more suited.
you are not ment to do damage your a engineer. you job is to heal wanna do damage go tac
you are not ment to do damage your a engineer. you job is to heal wanna do damage go tac
Thank you very much for ignoring all that has been said in the first post, and thus far. I hope you haven't been so crass as to ignore the title of topic.
you are not ment to do damage your a engineer. you job is to heal wanna do damage go tac
Klingon Engineers can do reasonable amount of damage with their Cruisers. The Fed side should be able to do a little more damage then they can currently do. I do not know why so many people don't want Fed Cruisers to be a little bit better with damage. Right now so many Fed Cruisers damage is unreasonably low. To many people play as Tactical Officers not enough Engineers on the Fed side. Balance needs to be part of the game and their is a lack of it on the Fed Side.
Klingon Engineers can do reasonable amount of damage with their Cruisers. The Fed side should be able to do a little more damage then they can currently do. I do not know why so many people don't want Fed Cruisers to be a little bit better with damage. Right now so many Fed Cruisers damage is unreasonably low. To many people play as Tactical Officers not enough Engineers on the Fed side. Balance needs to be part of the game and their is a lack of it on the Fed Side.
I think most are just accustomed with the standard MMO mechanic.
The thing is, IT DOESN'T WORK WITH STAR TREK. (Sorry for the caps, but every time i see someone come up with that old statement i get really annoyed...)
Klingon Engineers/Cruiser are able to do damage thanks to their DHCs and much better tactrical stations on some Cruisers, why can't Starfleet ships get similar weapons?
I know Klingon ships get less Hull Hitpoints.
If it where up to me, Klingon and Starfleet Cruisers could get similar hull hitpoints, of course only if both had acess to similar strong weapons. As a tradeoff for not being able to use a Cloaking device and their slower turnrate, Starfleet cruisers should get better fireing arcs for their hard hitting weapons (if they had acess to any).
But just giving them a bit more hull, but no heavy weapons, a much slower turnrate and nothing as substitution for the Klingon Cloak is just bad design.
Don't get me wrong here this is not about KDF vs. Starfleet, i just want to point out that the devs have given Cruisers and especially Starfleet Cruisers a basically completely wrong "role".
In my opinion, Cryptic has the unbelieveable talent to make everything that is iconic in Star Trek either boring or just inferior, lol.
As i said Starfleet ships (Cruisers) are by design made to operate independently, much more than other cultures ships (which are seen much more frequent to work in small groups).
If any, Klingon Cruisers should be focussed on supporting their escorts, but not Starfleet Cruisers.
MMO or not, i think the devs have made a fundamental error by designing Starfleet Cruisers as supporters. They should be on par with escorts, just bigger slower but very powerful. But as always they did the exact opposite. :rolleyes:
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
I would venture a guess that the power disparity between Escorts and Cruisers will not be addressed until they implement proper warp core functionality. Obviously, a Star Cruiser has a *massive* warp core compared to a smaller tactical ship, so their energy weapons should have damage output commensurate with their power output.
Maybe when Cruisers are zipping around with a huge warp core powering their beam arrays while those Escorts are zipping around with their herp-a-derp cores that can barely power a couple of back-to-back 4-DHC volleys, we'll finally see some balance! :rolleyes:
Maybe when Cruisers are zipping around with a huge warp core powering their beam arrays while those Escorts are zipping around with their herp-a-derp cores that can barely power a couple of back-to-back 4-DHC volleys, we'll finally see some balance! :rolleyes:
Except most escorts have warp cores of equal size to a lot of cruisers. I hate bringing canon into this, but the Defiant had a warp core equal in size to the Enterprise-D. The Voyager did as well. Ignoring canon, Escorts would have a greater power output anyways, since the ships are smaller, and as such the SIF and SS require far less energy to maintain, which leaves more energy for life support, which on a smaller ship requires less energy, which leaves a whole ton of energy for weapons.
On a cruiser however, the ships are usually large and very complex (the exact opposite of escorts), and as such, their SIF and SS usually require larger amounts of energy to maintain. Then you have their larger crews, and overall larger ship, which means life support uses up even more power. That doesn't leave a whole lot for weapons.
And that's not even going into propulsion systems.
The only problem here being that smaller ships are simply just that much more efficient with power usage, which means cruisers are kinda boned to begin with.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Except most escorts have warp cores of equal size to a lot of cruisers. I hate bringing canon into this, but the Defiant had a warp core equal in size to the Enterprise-D. The Voyager did as well. Ignoring canon, Escorts would have a greater power output anyways, since the ships are smaller, and as such the SIF and SS require far less energy to maintain, which leaves more energy for life support, which on a smaller ship requires less energy, which leaves a whole ton of energy for weapons.
On a cruiser however, the ships are usually large and very complex (the exact opposite of escorts), and as such, their SIF and SS usually require larger amounts of energy to maintain. Then you have their larger crews, and overall larger ship, which means life support uses up even more power. That doesn't leave a whole lot for weapons.
And that's not even going into propulsion systems.
The only problem here being that smaller ships are simply just that much more efficient with power usage, which means cruisers are kinda boned to begin with.
I'm sorry but what you said about Escorts (defiant) having similar sized Warp cores than a Galaxy class and thus equal much power is purely nonsense. If you didn't know, a Galaxy class Warp core spans over several decks (at least 12 decks if i remember correctly). Please show me 12 decks on a Defiant...
I'm sure Cryptics devs would love to read more of things like that, maybe we can get them to completely get rid of all Cruisers and call STO officially Escorts online, that would at least be much more honest.
I'm sorry but i don't have time for stuff like that anymore...
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
Except most escorts have warp cores of equal size to a lot of cruisers. I hate bringing canon into this, but the Defiant had a warp core equal in size to the Enterprise-D. The Voyager did as well. Ignoring canon, Escorts would have a greater power output anyways, since the ships are smaller, and as such the SIF and SS require far less energy to maintain, which leaves more energy for life support, which on a smaller ship requires less energy, which leaves a whole ton of energy for weapons.
On a cruiser however, the ships are usually large and very complex (the exact opposite of escorts), and as such, their SIF and SS usually require larger amounts of energy to maintain. Then you have their larger crews, and overall larger ship, which means life support uses up even more power. That doesn't leave a whole lot for weapons.
And that's not even going into propulsion systems.
The only problem here being that smaller ships are simply just that much more efficient with power usage, which means cruisers are kinda boned to begin with.
If I remember correctly, the Defiant had a lot of teething problems because its warp core and weapons systems were too powerful for a vessel its size. They had to devote extra power to its structural integrity field just to keep its own engines from damaging the ship. They also had to make a number of other sacrifices as well, such as eliminating all science facilities and having minimal medical bay support.
That being said, canon simply isn't part of overall game balance, and it shows. Ships that lose a disproportionately large number of crew or take severe damage should have their operating efficiency impaired, and yet this is not evident in-game. Damage that would leave a cruiser in rough but operational condition should by all rights leave an escort dead in the water, yet this is not the case. I've seen escorts that can easily tank 2-3 cruisers firing on them, whereas competently-built cruisers would have trouble going up against one well-optimized escort build, let alone two.
lol, the defiant's great big super impressive warp core... was proboly the warp core out of a saber class. a much larger ship, but still just a frigate in star ship terms. voyager's warp core was a tooth pick compared to the galaxy's as well. just lol
I may have to re-look into that... On second thought that was actually a terrible example XD.
Hur dur now I feel stupid.
But the premise is the same. Larger warp cores aren't necessarily going to generate more net energy than a smaller one. Smaller ships are simply too much more efficient in terms of power usage than the larger ones.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
I may have to re-look into that... On second thought that was actually a terrible example XD.
Hur dur now I feel stupid.
But the premise is the same. Larger warp cores aren't necessarily going to generate more net energy than a smaller one. Smaller ships are simply too much more efficient in terms of power usage than the larger ones.
i think its more then likely that warp cores generate hundreds of times more power then the ship would need at full combat status, the energy needed to create the farp field and propel the ships 1000-10000 times the speed of light must be astronomical. the impulse reactors on most ships can proboly more then power all systems, weapons and shields at thier mechanical limit just fine with out the warp core, at least for a wile. the nemisis battle supports this hypothesis at least.
theres also the connie refit drawing power from the warp core for weapon, before that the ship wide EPS system and the core to the neccel EPS system could have been completely separate. if they mingled at all technically the wore would have contributed plasma to the weapons all along
it could be trivial to compare warp cores, wile not at warp, they generate infinite energy, compared to what the ship can actually use. the defiant might not have impulse reactors, it might just be the core powering everything to save space
i think its more then likely that warp cores generate hundreds of times more power then the ship would need at full combat status, the energy needed to create the farp field and propel the ships 1000-10000 times the speed of light must be astronomical. the impulse reactors on most ships can proboly more then power all systems, weapons and shields at thier mechanical limit just fine with out the warp core, at least for a wile. the nemisis battle supports this hypothesis at least.
theres also the connie refit drawing power from the warp core for weapon, before that the ship wide EPS system and the core to the neccel EPS system could have been completely separate. if they mingled at all technically the wore would have contributed plasma to the weapons all along
it could be trivial to compare warp cores, wile not at warp, they generate infinite energy, compared to what the ship can actually use. the defiant might not have impulse reactors, it might just be the core powering everything to save space
ehem, geeked out there for a sec...
O.O
*waves white flag*
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
I read somewhere (may be fanon) that longer warp cores = more power output or greater power recharge speed because a longer core can handle a greater input rate of deuterium and anti-deuterium. Regardless, here are the MSD's for the Galaxy, Defiant and Voyager, and you can see the number of decks each warp core occupies (assuming of course that the decks of each ship are roughly equal height).
The idea that the core would produce a heck of a lot more power than a ship can functionally use most of the time is a reasonable one. EPS conduits will always have a maximum capacity where they overload and explode if too much power is flowing through them too often.
That's also probably why ships can't have their outer hulls packed with phaser strips because of all the conduit space they'd need. And all that energy creates an enormous amount heat which would need to be dissipated or the entire ship becomes a floating sea of molten metal. I always imagined the warp nacelle grills also acted as radiators to dissipate heat (since all spaceships with a power plant must use radiators to function).
lol, the defiant's great big super impressive warp core... was proboly the warp core out of a saber class.
Hmm, no. I'm pretty sure there was a throwaway line by someone (O'brien or Siko if memory serves) about its warp core being the same or similar to a Galaxy's. I can't recall the exact words but I do remember the idea was that its warp core was comparable to a Galaxy's warp core. And yes, the Defiant was overgunned and overpowered, which was one of the technical issues they had to resolve as the show progressed, or rather, it was something O'brien fixed. According to some sources it was by upgrading the SIF.
Of course other sources state that warp cores stretch multiple decks, etc, etc. But warp cores are essentially Eldritch Machines/Flux Capacitors/Inscrutable Black Boxes for our purposes, so there's not much point in worrying about conflicting sources.
Hmm, no. I'm pretty sure there was a throwaway line by someone (O'brien or Siko if memory serves) about its warp core being the same or similar to a Galaxy's. I can't recall the exact words but I do remember the idea was that its warp core was comparable to a Galaxy's warp core. And yes, the Defiant was overgunned and overpowered, which was one of the technical issues they had to resolve as the show progressed, or rather, it was something O'brien fixed. According to some sources it was by upgrading the SIF.
Of course other sources state that warp cores stretch multiple decks, etc, etc. But warp cores are essentially Eldritch Machines/Flux Capacitors/Inscrutable Black Boxes for our purposes, so there's not much point in worrying about conflicting sources.
I believe you got it mixed up with a line in TNG about the Intrepid. Which, at the time of its introduction, had a warp core equivalent in power to a Galaxy-class like the Enterprise D. But then Geordi did some upgrades and managed to keep score. In any case, Galaxy-class ships are generally regarded as having some of the most powerful warp cores in the fleet.
Hmm, no. I'm pretty sure there was a throwaway line by someone (O'brien or Siko if memory serves) about its warp core being the same or similar to a Galaxy's. I can't recall the exact words but I do remember the idea was that its warp core was comparable to a Galaxy's warp core. And yes, the Defiant was overgunned and overpowered, which was one of the technical issues they had to resolve as the show progressed, or rather, it was something O'brien fixed. According to some sources it was by upgrading the SIF.
A little detail seems to be forgotten by Defiant/Escort disciples all the time.
It was overpowered and FOR IT'S SIZE. This has been said several times by O'Brien and Sisko, and this meant in no way that this little tough ship had more powerful Weapons, Engines or Shields than a Galaxy Class or a Ambassador for example.
The only really extraordinary thing on that ship was its Abative Armor, which acted something like an ensurance for its not so strong shields.
It's Weapons where powerful no doubt, but only facing to the front and i really doubt they where stronger than a Galaxys 200 Emitter Beam Array.
Btw. The defiant was only one ship Class made by the Federation in canon Trek, which was designed as something like a Heavy Patrol craft or fast respons force against the Borg. Making it a whole Ship Type which outguns and outclasses all other ships is just rediculus, at least by professional Game devlopers.
For me, STO seems more like a wierd fan made Star Trek story, made by people who have only seen DS9 and found the Defiant really "cool", but everything else "not so much"....
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
I have come to the same conlcusion as the Topic starter, however for other reasons.
I just love the Galaxy class and i tried to make it a at least playable DPS ship, yeha i know that sounds crazy.
I got any equipment that helped to make even a tiny bit more Damage, but it really doesn't make a difference.
I tried almost any other ship Star Trek like ship (Crusier/Science shiip) in the game (sorry but for me Escorts are just generic Sci fi pew pew ships), they just can't live up to my expectations i have regarding to a Star Trek ship. Doing a Fleet Action/ STF with all but escorts and only myself as only Cruiser makes me completely unessential. No matter what i may do Escorts did everything better, lol.
Yeah, call me noob, i don't care. But i would rather stop playing STO completely before i give up and switch to escorts.(i just hate them...)
Realisticly if i would somehow want to make one of my ships into a support/heal cruiser i would do the same as the Topic Starter and completely get rid of almost all weapons and use only Heal/Support BOFF skills.
I must say, if that's what Mr. Rivera thinks how Star Trek works then he should do everyone a favour and finally look for another job.
I didn't want to sound negative, but thats how i see things.
Yes Gecko has killed the eng and the crus, ships but there is alot of input and path to be had. just dont plan on this "person" to admit he broke something and fix it. Just keep fighting.
Btw. The defiant was only one ship Class made by the Federation in canon Trek, which was designed as something like a Heavy Patrol craft or fast respons force against the Borg. Making it a whole Ship Type which outguns and outclasses all other ships is just rediculus, at least by professional Game devlopers.
Why, you make it sound like anyone would actually WANT to fly around in large space whales? We all know their job is hauling each other off to be scrapped!!:D
I think they took the view that DS9 fundamentally changed the way Trek combat worked. Before it was a waiting it out/Picard way. Mainly because the Feds hadn't bothered to make actual warships no one else had bothered to either (or upgrade centuries old existing designs in the case of the KDF), but then they did and the giant space whales became obsolete in an instant. The age of the grand stupidity with its families onboard ships concepts sent to potentially hazardous combat zones was over.
I also understand that for game purposes they can't just make giant space ships with impenetrable shields and armor that also happen to carry a few dozen phaser lances. Would anyone fly anything else? Heck, I'm a huge fan of the space brick covered in guns style of ship but it tends to be rather stationary and not as zippy or exciting.
Why, you make it sound like anyone would actually WANT to fly around in large space whales? We all know their job is hauling each other off to be scrapped!!:D
I think they took the view that DS9 fundamentally changed the way Trek combat worked. Before it was a waiting it out/Picard way. Mainly because the Feds hadn't bothered to make actual warships no one else had bothered to either (or upgrade centuries old existing designs in the case of the KDF), but then they did and the giant space whales became obsolete in an instant. The age of the grand stupidity with its families onboard ships concepts sent to potentially hazardous combat zones was over.
I also understand that for game purposes they can't just make giant space ships with impenetrable shields and armor that also happen to carry a few dozen phaser lances. Would anyone fly anything else? Heck, I'm a huge fan of the space brick covered in guns style of ship but it tends to be rather stationary and not as zippy or exciting.
Zipping space combat maybe is great in a Star Wars or BSG game, but Star Trek always was about big Cruiser like ships and much more tactical/strategy focussed fighting.
I have no idea what star Trek shows you where watching, but even after your beloved Defiant was introduced Starfleet continued to build Big Cruiser like ships.
Just because YOU find strategical focused space combat boring, doesn't mean everyone else thinks the same.
Even before STO, there where Games including Star Trek ships and strangely none of them seemed to needed to turn Star Trek space combat upside down in favour of small jetfighter escorts.
So please don't talk as if everyone would want Star Trek to become like BSG or Star Wars.
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
Zipping space combat maybe is great in a Star Wars or BSG game, but Star Trek always was about big Cruiser like ships and much more tactical/strategy focussed fighting.
You said it, it "WAS" about large ships moving slowly. then the Dominion's greater tactical flexibility showed up, laughed at the Alpha Quadrant and proceeded to roflstomp on everyone.
Personally I don't think a canon Federation would have kept cruisers as they are though, but instead they'd be more like the KDF battlecruisers. Still big ships capable of taking a beating, but still able to dish out respectable damage. Its a possibility that Cryptic kept Fed cruisers as they were represented in TNG instead of them following a more natural post Dominion War evolution to make the KDF battlecruisers tactically different. In essence, Fed cruisers suffer not from escorts existing, but from Cryptic needing to differentate fed cruisers from KDF battlecruisers.
That's what really amazes me in cruiser "woe is me" threads. The real question isn't why are Escorts so much better than cruisers, but why KDF battlecruisers are so much better than Fed Space Whales? It just shows how few people have even looked at the KDF and their ships.
You said it, it "WAS" about large ships moving slowly. then the Dominion's greater tactical flexibility showed up, laughed at the Alpha Quadrant and proceeded to roflstomp on everyone.
Personally I don't think a canon Federation would have kept cruisers as they are though, but instead they'd be more like the KDF battlecruisers. Still big ships capable of taking a beating, but still able to dish out respectable damage. Its a possibility that Cryptic kept Fed cruisers as they were represented in TNG instead of them following a more natural post Dominion War evolution to make the KDF battlecruisers tactically different. In essence, Fed cruisers suffer not from escorts existing, but from Cryptic needing to differentate fed cruisers from KDF battlecruisers.
That's what really amazes me in cruiser "woe is me" threads. The real question isn't why are Escorts so much better than cruisers, but why KDF battlecruisers are so much better than Fed Space Whales? It just shows how few people have even looked at the KDF and their ships.
To some extent, it really is a question of why escorts are so much better than cruisers.
Let me re-state the following: one escort can tank damage from three cruisers but one cruiser may find themselves in difficulty trying to deal with two escorts.
You said it, it "WAS" about large ships moving slowly. then the Dominion's greater tactical flexibility showed up, laughed at the Alpha Quadrant and proceeded to roflstomp on everyone.
Personally I don't think a canon Federation would have kept cruisers as they are though, but instead they'd be more like the KDF battlecruisers. Still big ships capable of taking a beating, but still able to dish out respectable damage. Its a possibility that Cryptic kept Fed cruisers as they were represented in TNG instead of them following a more natural post Dominion War evolution to make the KDF battlecruisers tactically different. In essence, Fed cruisers suffer not from escorts existing, but from Cryptic needing to differentate fed cruisers from KDF battlecruisers.
That's what really amazes me in cruiser "woe is me" threads. The real question isn't why are Escorts so much better than cruisers, but why KDF battlecruisers are so much better than Fed Space Whales? It just shows how few people have even looked at the KDF and their ships.
DHCs & Turn rate > 7
I actually fly two of those battlecruisers.
And really I must disagree with the idea that cruisers are obsolete in combat. They were shown to be much more maneuverable on screen in combat than they are in game. The only place they lacked was that the Fed cruiser appears to have a weaker frontal arc and are designed to operate either alone or in small groups instead of large scale combat like say every other race. However they more than made up for that liability with their superior torpedo tech most times and they appeared to have the ability to focus their firepower into the forward arc when desired.
I would much prefer having options to slowly expand or focus weapon arcs in combat rather than relying on pre-mounted weapons, though I understand why it is there. Part of the thing with KDF battlecruiser is that while they are technically cruisers, they still play like escorts. Cruisers are constantly moving around, while because of their frontal arcs, escorts/battlecruisers generally sit there. (In pve) It is not very fun to fly like that, at least to me. That is part of the reason I enjoy beam arrays, as they simulate aimable turrets and let your ship constantly move rather than just pointing forward and spamming space.
And really I must disagree with the idea that cruisers are obsolete in combat. ....
Obsolete may be too strong a term, but the general purpose giant ships people feel the federation somehow favors is and really should be, outclassed by dedicated combat vessels.
TBH the more I mull about it nothing really points to TNG Starfleet being made up of mostly cruisers... in fact I'd say most of TNG Stafleet is probably smaller ships like the Mirandas.
All that said, I think that after the Dominion War and the looming Borg threat there probably would be some "war cruisers" made. IE: Big, durable ships more suitable for combat than the relatively weak cruise liner Galaxy. Heck, there's no reason why they couldn't do it with Galaxy hulls either. For me, this would mean that Fed cruisers would be like KDF battlecruisers are now. It would even fit nicely with the way the Galaxy-X was portrayed in the show.
Comments
Which basically go on until the end of days, when trumpets sound and the apocalypse destroys the world. Or until one of the players fall asleep at their computer and goes afk.
Ow man, those tractor mines are the scourge of civilized humanity, and any ship I witness dropping these becomes the first ship I try to kill. Be warned, I only need to pop APO once to line up my guns, then you die.
Awoken Dead
Now shaddup about the queues, it's a BUG
ya, thats still not going to do anything. doesn't mater, its not spike. it doesn't mater how strong the pressure is, if its not spike, its doesn't mater.
My point was to introduce special Starfleet Crusier beam arrays that do more DHC like damage, so cruisers could finally go away from doing "damage-over-time" to a more burst like damage, similar to escorts but yet different.
Escorts still could do more punctural damage at a very short time, being able to attack a weakend shield facing to destroy hull.
Starfleet Cruisers due their nature of being slower turning need to have wider fireing arcs, but also do burst damage. This cold be archieved by changing beam arrays damage to do more damage per shot and increasing their "reload" time.
Starfleet Cruisers could get a unique feature, similar to science vessels sensor scan. The cruisers "special" feature could be a summing up of fore and aft energy beam array weapons to one single beam array each.
Those special Cruiser beams could be restricted to starfleet Cruisers only, maybe allowing science vessels and Klingon Crusiers to equip just one or two weapons like this. But Escorts shouldn't be allowed to equip them, since they almost can exclusively equip DHCs.
How big should be their exact damage output?
How long should be the "reload time" of those weapons?
To be honest, i don't know, other people are much more qualified to estimate things like that.
you are not ment to do damage your a engineer. you job is to heal wanna do damage go tac
Thank you very much for ignoring all that has been said in the first post, and thus far. I hope you haven't been so crass as to ignore the title of topic.
Klingon Engineers can do reasonable amount of damage with their Cruisers. The Fed side should be able to do a little more damage then they can currently do. I do not know why so many people don't want Fed Cruisers to be a little bit better with damage. Right now so many Fed Cruisers damage is unreasonably low. To many people play as Tactical Officers not enough Engineers on the Fed side. Balance needs to be part of the game and their is a lack of it on the Fed Side.
The thing is, IT DOESN'T WORK WITH STAR TREK.
(Sorry for the caps, but every time i see someone come up with that old statement i get really annoyed...)
Klingon Engineers/Cruiser are able to do damage thanks to their DHCs and much better tactrical stations on some Cruisers, why can't Starfleet ships get similar weapons?
I know Klingon ships get less Hull Hitpoints.
If it where up to me, Klingon and Starfleet Cruisers could get similar hull hitpoints, of course only if both had acess to similar strong weapons. As a tradeoff for not being able to use a Cloaking device and their slower turnrate, Starfleet cruisers should get better fireing arcs for their hard hitting weapons (if they had acess to any).
But just giving them a bit more hull, but no heavy weapons, a much slower turnrate and nothing as substitution for the Klingon Cloak is just bad design.
Don't get me wrong here this is not about KDF vs. Starfleet, i just want to point out that the devs have given Cruisers and especially Starfleet Cruisers a basically completely wrong "role".
In my opinion, Cryptic has the unbelieveable talent to make everything that is iconic in Star Trek either boring or just inferior, lol.
As i said Starfleet ships (Cruisers) are by design made to operate independently, much more than other cultures ships (which are seen much more frequent to work in small groups).
If any, Klingon Cruisers should be focussed on supporting their escorts, but not Starfleet Cruisers.
MMO or not, i think the devs have made a fundamental error by designing Starfleet Cruisers as supporters. They should be on par with escorts, just bigger slower but very powerful. But as always they did the exact opposite. :rolleyes:
Maybe when Cruisers are zipping around with a huge warp core powering their beam arrays while those Escorts are zipping around with their herp-a-derp cores that can barely power a couple of back-to-back 4-DHC volleys, we'll finally see some balance! :rolleyes:
Except most escorts have warp cores of equal size to a lot of cruisers. I hate bringing canon into this, but the Defiant had a warp core equal in size to the Enterprise-D. The Voyager did as well. Ignoring canon, Escorts would have a greater power output anyways, since the ships are smaller, and as such the SIF and SS require far less energy to maintain, which leaves more energy for life support, which on a smaller ship requires less energy, which leaves a whole ton of energy for weapons.
On a cruiser however, the ships are usually large and very complex (the exact opposite of escorts), and as such, their SIF and SS usually require larger amounts of energy to maintain. Then you have their larger crews, and overall larger ship, which means life support uses up even more power. That doesn't leave a whole lot for weapons.
And that's not even going into propulsion systems.
The only problem here being that smaller ships are simply just that much more efficient with power usage, which means cruisers are kinda boned to begin with.
I'm sure Cryptics devs would love to read more of things like that, maybe we can get them to completely get rid of all Cruisers and call STO officially Escorts online, that would at least be much more honest.
I'm sorry but i don't have time for stuff like that anymore...
If I remember correctly, the Defiant had a lot of teething problems because its warp core and weapons systems were too powerful for a vessel its size. They had to devote extra power to its structural integrity field just to keep its own engines from damaging the ship. They also had to make a number of other sacrifices as well, such as eliminating all science facilities and having minimal medical bay support.
That being said, canon simply isn't part of overall game balance, and it shows. Ships that lose a disproportionately large number of crew or take severe damage should have their operating efficiency impaired, and yet this is not evident in-game. Damage that would leave a cruiser in rough but operational condition should by all rights leave an escort dead in the water, yet this is not the case. I've seen escorts that can easily tank 2-3 cruisers firing on them, whereas competently-built cruisers would have trouble going up against one well-optimized escort build, let alone two.
I may have to re-look into that... On second thought that was actually a terrible example XD.
Hur dur now I feel stupid.
But the premise is the same. Larger warp cores aren't necessarily going to generate more net energy than a smaller one. Smaller ships are simply too much more efficient in terms of power usage than the larger ones.
i think its more then likely that warp cores generate hundreds of times more power then the ship would need at full combat status, the energy needed to create the farp field and propel the ships 1000-10000 times the speed of light must be astronomical. the impulse reactors on most ships can proboly more then power all systems, weapons and shields at thier mechanical limit just fine with out the warp core, at least for a wile. the nemisis battle supports this hypothesis at least.
theres also the connie refit drawing power from the warp core for weapon, before that the ship wide EPS system and the core to the neccel EPS system could have been completely separate. if they mingled at all technically the wore would have contributed plasma to the weapons all along
it could be trivial to compare warp cores, wile not at warp, they generate infinite energy, compared to what the ship can actually use. the defiant might not have impulse reactors, it might just be the core powering everything to save space
ehem, geeked out there for a sec...
O.O
*waves white flag*
Defiant = 3 decks
Voyager = 7 decks
Galaxy = 12 decks
The idea that the core would produce a heck of a lot more power than a ship can functionally use most of the time is a reasonable one. EPS conduits will always have a maximum capacity where they overload and explode if too much power is flowing through them too often.
That's also probably why ships can't have their outer hulls packed with phaser strips because of all the conduit space they'd need. And all that energy creates an enormous amount heat which would need to be dissipated or the entire ship becomes a floating sea of molten metal. I always imagined the warp nacelle grills also acted as radiators to dissipate heat (since all spaceships with a power plant must use radiators to function).
Hmm, no. I'm pretty sure there was a throwaway line by someone (O'brien or Siko if memory serves) about its warp core being the same or similar to a Galaxy's. I can't recall the exact words but I do remember the idea was that its warp core was comparable to a Galaxy's warp core. And yes, the Defiant was overgunned and overpowered, which was one of the technical issues they had to resolve as the show progressed, or rather, it was something O'brien fixed. According to some sources it was by upgrading the SIF.
Of course other sources state that warp cores stretch multiple decks, etc, etc. But warp cores are essentially Eldritch Machines/Flux Capacitors/Inscrutable Black Boxes for our purposes, so there's not much point in worrying about conflicting sources.
I believe you got it mixed up with a line in TNG about the Intrepid. Which, at the time of its introduction, had a warp core equivalent in power to a Galaxy-class like the Enterprise D. But then Geordi did some upgrades and managed to keep score. In any case, Galaxy-class ships are generally regarded as having some of the most powerful warp cores in the fleet.
It was overpowered and FOR IT'S SIZE. This has been said several times by O'Brien and Sisko, and this meant in no way that this little tough ship had more powerful Weapons, Engines or Shields than a Galaxy Class or a Ambassador for example.
The only really extraordinary thing on that ship was its Abative Armor, which acted something like an ensurance for its not so strong shields.
It's Weapons where powerful no doubt, but only facing to the front and i really doubt they where stronger than a Galaxys 200 Emitter Beam Array.
Btw. The defiant was only one ship Class made by the Federation in canon Trek, which was designed as something like a Heavy Patrol craft or fast respons force against the Borg. Making it a whole Ship Type which outguns and outclasses all other ships is just rediculus, at least by professional Game devlopers.
For me, STO seems more like a wierd fan made Star Trek story, made by people who have only seen DS9 and found the Defiant really "cool", but everything else "not so much"....
Yes Gecko has killed the eng and the crus, ships but there is alot of input and path to be had. just dont plan on this "person" to admit he broke something and fix it. Just keep fighting.
Why, you make it sound like anyone would actually WANT to fly around in large space whales? We all know their job is hauling each other off to be scrapped!!:D
I think they took the view that DS9 fundamentally changed the way Trek combat worked. Before it was a waiting it out/Picard way. Mainly because the Feds hadn't bothered to make actual warships no one else had bothered to either (or upgrade centuries old existing designs in the case of the KDF), but then they did and the giant space whales became obsolete in an instant. The age of the grand stupidity with its families onboard ships concepts sent to potentially hazardous combat zones was over.
I also understand that for game purposes they can't just make giant space ships with impenetrable shields and armor that also happen to carry a few dozen phaser lances. Would anyone fly anything else? Heck, I'm a huge fan of the space brick covered in guns style of ship but it tends to be rather stationary and not as zippy or exciting.
You only hear what you want to hear....:cool:
Zipping space combat maybe is great in a Star Wars or BSG game, but Star Trek always was about big Cruiser like ships and much more tactical/strategy focussed fighting.
I have no idea what star Trek shows you where watching, but even after your beloved Defiant was introduced Starfleet continued to build Big Cruiser like ships.
Just because YOU find strategical focused space combat boring, doesn't mean everyone else thinks the same.
Even before STO, there where Games including Star Trek ships and strangely none of them seemed to needed to turn Star Trek space combat upside down in favour of small jetfighter escorts.
So please don't talk as if everyone would want Star Trek to become like BSG or Star Wars.
You said it, it "WAS" about large ships moving slowly. then the Dominion's greater tactical flexibility showed up, laughed at the Alpha Quadrant and proceeded to roflstomp on everyone.
Personally I don't think a canon Federation would have kept cruisers as they are though, but instead they'd be more like the KDF battlecruisers. Still big ships capable of taking a beating, but still able to dish out respectable damage. Its a possibility that Cryptic kept Fed cruisers as they were represented in TNG instead of them following a more natural post Dominion War evolution to make the KDF battlecruisers tactically different. In essence, Fed cruisers suffer not from escorts existing, but from Cryptic needing to differentate fed cruisers from KDF battlecruisers.
That's what really amazes me in cruiser "woe is me" threads. The real question isn't why are Escorts so much better than cruisers, but why KDF battlecruisers are so much better than Fed Space Whales? It just shows how few people have even looked at the KDF and their ships.
To some extent, it really is a question of why escorts are so much better than cruisers.
Let me re-state the following: one escort can tank damage from three cruisers but one cruiser may find themselves in difficulty trying to deal with two escorts.
DHCs & Turn rate > 7
I actually fly two of those battlecruisers.
And really I must disagree with the idea that cruisers are obsolete in combat. They were shown to be much more maneuverable on screen in combat than they are in game. The only place they lacked was that the Fed cruiser appears to have a weaker frontal arc and are designed to operate either alone or in small groups instead of large scale combat like say every other race. However they more than made up for that liability with their superior torpedo tech most times and they appeared to have the ability to focus their firepower into the forward arc when desired.
Obsolete may be too strong a term, but the general purpose giant ships people feel the federation somehow favors is and really should be, outclassed by dedicated combat vessels.
TBH the more I mull about it nothing really points to TNG Starfleet being made up of mostly cruisers... in fact I'd say most of TNG Stafleet is probably smaller ships like the Mirandas.
All that said, I think that after the Dominion War and the looming Borg threat there probably would be some "war cruisers" made. IE: Big, durable ships more suitable for combat than the relatively weak cruise liner Galaxy. Heck, there's no reason why they couldn't do it with Galaxy hulls either. For me, this would mean that Fed cruisers would be like KDF battlecruisers are now. It would even fit nicely with the way the Galaxy-X was portrayed in the show.