Then get and organise more fleet missons whats stopping you. As for people quitting because an exploit has been closed. Cutting nose off to spite face springs to mind.
IOR, next toon, IOR, next toon, IOR, next toon.... repeat TRIBBLE times every 30 mins.
All that dill to buy all those things and they still stand in one place... IOR, IOR, IOR... :rolleyes:
There are only so many things in game, actually less that offer fleet marks. As you only quoted a partial statement to what I originally said... having the ability to play missions that were not the same thing over and over again was nice, we did this as a fleet and at the same time were given fleet marks which helped our but small fleet.
Now..... to get fleet marks, yes we can still do foundry missions but to get rewarded with FLEET MARKS, we need to stick to fleet actions, do you understand now.. that means we can only do these to get FLEET MARKS, so basically they are forcing something onto us that FOR US, in unjoyable.... before at least we had the option of picking different missions each day to do our daily with, and yes some did the occasional fleet action to get more marks...
What they should do as someone mentioned which is a great idea is to allow a group of 3-5 to team up and be able to do the foundry daily and get the fleet marks. Least we would have the option to still enjoy something without the need to be doing a set things over and over...
If there going to force people to do set things then bring in open pvp..
I think I have a 32K backlog on my main character right now.
and FMs...
Dil is never a problem with Zen just a click away.
Would have had more respect for cryptic if they had FMs for sale because at least their intent would be more visible versus the needing a hook and carrot to keep us around.
The hand is not worrying about being bitten, it's the TRIBBLE and mouth that look to be having an issue.
"Dammit J'mpok! I'm a Warrior, not a Worrier!"
- KDF Ambassador Syon vocalizing her objection to the discussions of possible peace talks with the UFP due to recent Borg and Undine activities.Hegh'bat, Stardate 66588.8
It's my belief that they are trying to kill the game so they can focus on Never Winter, and if thats the case I say they are doing a great job.
Maybe it wouldn't be bad thing. At least a new company might be American and make a less grindy MMO using the Star Trek franchise. I'm sure with all the new Trek coming out this year some other companies would jump at the chance to do it.
Gold Sub since March 2010
Lifetime Sub since June 2010
Scaling system isn't fair to large fleets, might as well kick everyone and make it easier if they did that. It doesn't give fleets any incentive to grow. Its never going to happen so people sotp bringing it up. Just be glad higher starbase tiers are even available to smaller fleet and don't require more members to unlock.
The current fleet holding system is fair, and I agree with the changes to investigate officer reports and removing exploits.
That said I wouldn't mind seeing more Fleet events, including some that are pvp.
Option A was that Fleet size would determine the maximum tier for Fleet Holdings. The larger the Fleet, the higher the Fleet Holding Tiers could achieve. This is how many other MMOs gate Guild progression, but we felt that it is artificially limiting to the many active small Fleets in STO.
Option B was to allow Fleets of any size to achieve all tiers of Fleet Holdings. The drawback is that because Fleet sizes range so much, we had to find a balance so that Large Fleets had some challenge, while still allowing small Fleets to achieve all tiers, albeit at a much slower pace. If you are in a Fleet less than 25 players, then it is expected to be more challenging than the norm.
I've suggested it before and recognize it would require tech that did not exist when starbases were added but I prefer what I'd call Option C or the WoW option.
That is to say: I think fleet level/base/holding progression should be tuned to be moderately easy for a fleet of around 20 players but such that characters have a higher personal investment to access fleet rewards.
The way certain other games handle this is by having a Fleet/Guild reputation. It is relatively easy (not trivial but doable easily in under a year) for a fleet to progress its rewards. This may require a fleet to engage in diverse playstyles but is fairly quick.
However, a fleet unlocking access to rewards does not translate into any PLAYER or CHARACTER unlocking access to rewards and the player must somehow champion the fleet/guild or participate in group content with fleetmates to gain personal access to what the fleet has unlocked.
In this version, almost all fleets might reach T5 Starbase in under six months but personally gaining access to fleet rewards would require participation in the actual fleet. (One option here could be a Fleet Reputations which actually consumes Lifetime Fleet Reputation. thus, progress in a Fleet rep is based on fleet loyalty.)
1. Fleets under 25 are going to have a hard time completing projects = by design.
Wasn't 25 considered a large fleet prior to starbases being added? I think what confuses some is that devs once seemed to indicate that 25+ was the threshold for a "large" fleet whereas the new design seems to suggest that 25 is no longer considered large. This is a shame because I know many people who splintered off with the intent of being active in multiple fleets on multiple alts, hoping that 25 would be considered "large" in the design... and therefore seeking to maximize diversity and presence of theme fleets by deliberately not having more than 25 in a fleet, even when two fleets had mostly the same players behind the keyboard. The idea being to maintain and participate in multiple themed fleets.
I know Caspian has multiple Fed Fleets partly under this expectation and that some of our podcasters advocated AGAINST having more than 25 characters in a fleet to maximize the diversity of fleets in game.
For example: Thirty players assumed that since they were a large fleet, they would max a starbase in 7 months. So they positioned alts in seperate fleets designated for PvP, STFs, roleplay. I sense a lot of buyer's remorse now that 30 is no longer considered large and frustration from players who feel penalized for parking and designating alts as a PvP alt in a labeled PvP Fleet, a Roleplay alt in a Roleplay fleet, etc.
The design seems to discourage fleet s from forming around single game mechanics or gameplay styles, which is traditionally a staple of MMO guild organization. It isn't that the players had no desire to participate in all facets of the game. It's that they wanted designated alts and fleets each directed at a single gameplay approach each.
Ie. My PvP alt does nothing but PvP and is in a fleet that does nothing but PvP. My roleplay alt is in a roleplay fleet where the fleet only organizes for roleplay and nothing else.
I realize a lot has changed but I feel STO has moved from an alt friendly game to penalizing people for alts -- particularly single purpose alts -- and single purpose fleets.
That said I wouldn't mind seeing more Fleet events, including some that are pvp.
Adding more queues to wait in is fixing the problem. LOL
Now if one got FMs for the wait invested...
"Dammit J'mpok! I'm a Warrior, not a Worrier!"
- KDF Ambassador Syon vocalizing her objection to the discussions of possible peace talks with the UFP due to recent Borg and Undine activities.Hegh'bat, Stardate 66588.8
you know what gents at cryptic, im gonna make this short and sweet. its your game and you can justify why you kick us in the teeth all you want it comes down to this. you want to bone us for every second we play this game. you want to bleed us as bad as possible. you might as well take the foundry out of the game, cause as long as its in there people are going to make farming missions. what did you expect. a 5 year old with kindergarden economics could have figured that out. fine take out the only way we can keep up with the rediculous costs you place on us for building our reputations, and bases, and embasy. i mean seriously im glad i dont work for you, cause i would be helping the players find these exploits just to help them keep their heads above water.
the game used to be fun, now its a job. i feel like im playing eve.
You are so right bro.
Thing is i have a Job and i don't need another. And even if i wanted another Job i certainly would not want a Job as boring as the Grind in STO is these Days.
Oh and one more thing. The one who keeps thinking its a good idea to take something away and everything is fine by telling its coming something else for it....someday, that one should better not work in an Industrie where you need to make Money. Just my opinion.
First, I agreed that the AFK style Foundry missions were bad and people were rewarded regardless. Those needed nuked. The farming missions were fine. You at least had to fight and be active.
Second, I hated that you pulled the IOR wrapper from the game with FMs as a reward. Why? Because lets face it here, my fleet (as well as others) is pretty small and we pretty much wanted to keep it like that. Less drama and conflicts..etc..etc Plus we are a group of friends and the fleet was created to keep us together as friends, not as a guild to meet status quo that many larger guilds/fleets are made up to do. Taking that out hurts our type of fleets dramatically. When it was added, it was a sigh of relief for us, now we're back to were we started.
Now you say fleet marks were designed to be obtained by fleet actions only, but my small fleet (as again are others) are made up of people scattered across the US and Europe. It is simply not possible for us all to be online at the same time all the time. Therefore when only a couple of us are online, what can we do as a fleet during that time? Not a damn thing. So how are we to contribute to the fleet projects, gather fleet marks and dump into the projects? With the IORs at least when members were online solo or whatever we COULD contribute to the fleet as members of the fleet. Considering my fleet is roughly 20 players and we are running two fleets (one Fed, one KDF) we are working twice as hard and using our Alt chars to supplement during off peak times. Im proud of my guys that both our bases are at T3. But we all contribute what we can, when we can when we arent all online simultaneously. That is what TEAM WORK is...everybody pulling their own weight and contributing to the whole, not having to always do it together as a whole 100% of the time. Christ, its how Cryptic and every other functional entity functions and you should know this Dan. In many other MMOs I've played (and I've played A LOT of MMOs), one did not have to be grouped 24/7 to contribute to the guild/fleet. Simply playing the game and adding resources you've earned made you a contributing member. STO should be no different in that aspect given the reasons I stated above.
Furthermore, when is the last time you and the Devs have jumped into public queues for fleet actions in the game? Your metrics may say one thing, but unless your seeing it first hand, metrics dont mean TRIBBLE. Its HORRIBLE. Not only are the rewards too small for the time and effort, but also you have AFK leeching, players half-arsed trying and under leveled players joining in that can't pull weight and die way to fast/often working off the backs of us that are. Also the KDF queue on average takes an hour or more just to pop and NEVER does during off peak hours. Its ridiculous.
My suggestions.
Put the IORs back and extend the cooldown from 30mins to say maybe 2 to 3 hours. That would slow down the FM accumulation to standardized proportions and keep the current dilithium scaling to average mission length.
Increase the mark counts for fleet actions and maybe add bonus marks for the skilled players that perform well in those to reward the non-leechers. Base it off buffs, debuffs, dmg..etc.. so that Sci and Engineering captains benefit and not just overrun by tacticals.
Maybe add small FM rewards to STFs, the Mirror Incursion event and the like as they are grouped only events.
For the love of god, do something with Nukara. That place is WORTHLESS. The only people that go there are ones going for the Tholian gear set and/or people that don't know any better. Its dubbed 'Nuke' for a good reason, because its as barren as a nuclear wasteland.
Maybe even consider adding FM rewards for replaying the old Episodes. Out of my 6 characters, I've only played through it twice because there is no reason to replay them at their current value. One can level simply by patrols, Doff'ing and Foundry. This could be a good thing to add replay value to the originals.
Add a way to convert Romulan and Omega Marks into Fleet Marks. My main has 2130 Rom Marks and well over 3k Omega marks that are just sitting after getting the gear I wanted and Tier 5 rep in both.
GPL? Is anyone really buying holo-projectors anymore with GPL? Buying FMs with it could be a nice way to add some livelyness back to Qwarks bar at the Dabo table.
add fleet marks like omega and romulan marks, fleet missions for time completed take longer and give way less then what the omega and even romulan marks get.
for examble
Fleet mission A.gives 75 for missions and 15 for optional a, 15 more for optional b.
also keep dil way it is its manageable.
Treat this like stfs quick and less grindy for small fleets then every one wins.
hope this gives insite dstal.
-Spells
|| Open Door Policy ||
| Dues Ex Mechina |
Fleet Leader
As it stands now the situation is DIRE. NO ONE WANTS TO GRIND THE SAME STFS FOR OMEGA MARKS. WE ARE SICK OF THE SAME MISSIONS OVER AND OVER AGAIN FOR FLEET MARKS.
Cryptic, you want us to play the game YOU NEED TO PROVIDE US WITH A REASON TO DO SO.
Here here,
Dan, I'm sorry, But I really have to agree with the sentiment in this post.
I've ground so many STFs at this point that I feel I just might go out of my skull.
The same missions over and over again, then the new rep system, and we're grinding them all over again and again.
What's more, I personally feel terribly conflicted when I log on nowadays.
Do I assist fleetmates grinding fleetmarks, or do I grind Omega/Romulan marks or whatever damned currency out of the ever growing list of currencies to meet my own personal reputation goals?
I can't tell you how often I have to turn down playing with my fleet, because of conflicted goals now.
Yes, the foundry had/has it's exploits, but honestly, It helped me get SOME of the specific currency I needed quickly, to contribute to fleet goals, so I could get on with some of my own personal goals/rewards.
I feel I'm all over the place with my efforts and overall, it's not a very satisfying experience.
Nice way to backtrack and act like fleet marks were meant for a limited time reward until the Anniversary event was over. Maybe it would have be beneficial to everyone to announce that earlier on so players wouldn't feel like you just snatched it away for other reasons. That was obviously just a convenient excuse and a funny lie. FM have been given away with foundry play for months now. It originally started with a fleet week that gave out the Fm for foundry play. That reward has been in place for months since then even if other changed were made related to the requirements.
In recent STO interviews they kept touting how the foundry is something they are focusing heavily on in the game so its funny to see how much player animosity surrounds it now. Not to mention most players don't feel they have time for "real" foundry content anyway.
It would be nice to see a focus on some actual new content...not more grindfests and perpetual rebalancing of existing content...
Nice way to backtrack and act like fleet marks were meant for a limited time reward until the Anniversary event was over. Maybe it would have be beneficial to everyone to announce that earlier on so players wouldn't feel like you just snatched it away for other reasons. That was obviously just a convenient excuse and a funny lie. FM have been given away with foundry play for months now. It originally started with a fleet week that gave out the Fm for foundry play. That reward has been in place for months since then even if other changed were made related to the requirements.
In recent STO interviews they kept touting how the foundry is something they are focusing heavily on in the game so its funny to see how much player animosity surrounds it now. Not to mention most players don't feel they have time for "real" foundry content anyway.
It would be nice to see a focus on some actual new content...not more grindfests and perpetual rebalancing of existing content...
Most definitely agreed!
Gold Sub since March 2010
Lifetime Sub since June 2010
i can see it now = forcing small fleets to merge (with members less than 50) .
it looks that way from the things in dans post which will drive a lot of players away from sto , i would be one of the first tbh because how i see it the smaller the fleet the more you are punished . with the dilithium refining cap at 8k every 24 hours and not likely to change at all things will only go up in price , i say it will get harder for smaller fleets reading the first post of this thread and prices of stuff in the lower tiers will proberly increase .
prove me incorrect Dan ! , i feel sorry for the people who spend time making these foundry missions that will most proberly not get played much now these changes are coming into force . it is becoming a full time job just getting the fleet marks and dilithium etc instead of being a fun game to play , i know that MMO's contain some grind but the way things are heading thats all STO will be .
What's more, I personally feel terribly conflicted when I log on nowadays.
Do I assist fleetmates grinding fleetmarks, or do I grind Omega/Romulan marks or whatever damned currency out of the ever growing list of currencies to meet my own personal reputation goals?
I can't tell you how often I have to turn down playing with my fleet, because of conflicted goals now.
Yes, the foundry had/has it's exploits, but honestly, It helped me get SOME of the specific currency I needed quickly, to contribute to fleet goals, so I could get on with some of my own personal goals/rewards.
I feel I'm all over the place with my efforts and overall, it's not a very satisfying experience.
This also is a very good point. There is just way too damn many currencies and objectives in the game now that spreads things waaaaaay to far out. Between EC, Dilith, FMs, RMs and OMs you torn between doing things for your fleet and friends, or yourself. Consolidate some of this stuff. Like I said in my post, add FMs to STFs and/or the Romulan dailies so that you can accomplish both.
At least with the IORs we could gather dilith, FMs and ECs in a consolidated sweep instead of having to spread out too thin.
We have lives Dan. We can't play STO 10 hours a day man.
Scaling system isn't fair to large fleets, might as well kick everyone and make it easier if they did that. It doesn't give fleets any incentive to grow. Its never going to happen so people sotp bringing it up. Just be glad higher starbase tiers are even available to smaller fleet and don't require more members to unlock.
The current fleet holding system is fair, and I agree with the changes to investigate officer reports and removing exploits.
That said I wouldn't mind seeing more Fleet events, including some that are pvp.
If there is a fixed cost and a variable cost to the missions, it is still in the large fleets favor.
y=mx+b
Do the math for this: Cost for 1 SB mission to progress=
20,000 + 500(x) dilithium/FM/Whatever makes you happy
10 man fleet = 25,000 dilithium = 2,500 dil/player
100 man fleet = 70,000 dilithium= 700 dil/player
1000 man fleet= 520,000 dilithium= 520 dil/player
You also have the deferi warzone missions that give out both omega and fleetmarks... so... how about adding fleet marks to stf runs. Deferi warzones arent stfs, there objective type missions that groups do... not really fleet orientated but.. its a group based mission that fleets can do togeather, sooooo.. as stfs are one of the same principles, stf should also give out fleet marks... So lets see some change if your taking out fleet marks from SOLO based stuff...even though foundry daily technicly could be grouped and fleet orientated.
Or you going to turn around and say other... :rolleyes:
I'll have to do some digging, but I'm sure others saw them say that the fleet base was meant to be attainable by all, and not meant to be a burden on smaller fleets. Proportionate may not have been the wording used, but it was certainly made clear that they were initially designing it to be just as attainable for a small fleet (albeit a bit longer) than it is for these huge mega-fleets.
Bottom line:
This is a terrible decision, it doesn't make sense, and if some random user can come up with a great formula for fleet advancement, why can't these "developers" that get paid a good chunk of cash to think of these things?
I find it disheartening that they always talk about metrics this and metrics that, yet we are not privy to these numbers.
I think if you are going to throw metrics at us as an excuse, we should at least be able to examine the numbers ourselves.
So here is a challenge.
Let's see these metrics. Not only that, let's see your active subscriber count for the last 12 months. FTP as well. I don't wanna hear "we have blah blah blah accounts!" Anyone can say that. For instance, how many fleet advertisements do I hear where the advertiser claims they have "200 members" when it's really just 10 people with 20 characters each? No one ever wants to admit how many real members they have...unless they are a small fleet. Interesting.
We're smart people, many of us with college educations. I am sure we can figure the numbers out. But then again...maybe that's the fear? You've seen instances where someone has cracked little codes on things like drop rates and the like. Remember the OMEGA boxes? You refused to give us numbers on those as well, but one of the players figured it out.
At least when one of your competitors lost subscribers, they didn't try to hide it. They also don't hide things like drop rates or perform stealth patches on certain things and then say "Oh yeah, we were always gonna do that" only after they are found out.
Yeah, maybe it was always the plan to get rid of the fleet marks, but did you ever bother telling us with anything more than 24 hours notice? Are we not smart enough to understand your "Enron" numbers?
I'm not trying to be insulting even though I feel I've been insulted. I just want to be treated like an adult and not like a child. These are serious questions. Can I get serious, straightforward answers? Probably not.
No, I am not who you think I am. I am someone different. I am instead a banana.
I got to page 21 before I decided to just post these simple solutions.
Now, I play Pardus. Still do. Granted, I am not as active as I used to be but I still go in and keep my two Starbases running as they are cornerstones to at least one area of a sector block's economy.
I also am not in a Fleet and apparently don't want to be. I enjoy being a lone wolf but could be talked into the right fleet. I like smaller more cohesive fleets.
That said, here is the idea I am posing....drop the Fleet Mark system period. Have everything cost Dilithium as far as Fleets are concerned. Make Mergers (if they do get implemented) an optional thing. Lock Box Keys could cost Dilithium and be in the D-store or made by Fleets. This would also drop them off the Exchange or at least lower the prices from the 1.5 million EC.
This is just off the top of my head from a Level 42 Fleet-less player.
My issue isn't that they pulled FM from Foundry. It makes sense to pull FM from Foundry missions.. My issue that instead of doing a balanced approach to the issue, by killed FM and not replacing with something else was just plain unfair. Also announcing it 1 day before holodeck patch wasn't that great either. Or that now that the Large Fleets are finishing their Starbases the rest of us are just screwed until they make fix the balance issue in the future.
All this would have been a non-issue if a solution for the removal of the FM reward had been slated to roll out at most two weeks from now.
But no, they couldn't even do that. Instead they set themselves up for a ****storm they know they can't correct until May. As if that wasn't bad enough, they aren't at liberty to discuss their own fixes, which they must know would potentially quiet the less bloodthirsty posters.
It's like they wanted everyone to rage. Everything about the execution of this is godawful.
Wow, that was a very long winded explanation of telling everyone one that the Fleet system was designed for large to Mega large fleets only.
Lets face it, you cant design a fool proof system to balance the small to Mega size fleets and they knew that from the start, but couldn't admit to it without them getting hate from the small fleets out there.
That?s why they never showed the requirements for each tier until it was reached.
Well, well, well, looks like the cats out of the bag and now Cryptic has thrown out their puppet to state what they already knew from the beginning.
Well played Cryptic, your PR people are doing their jobs very well putting word in your mouth to help obscure the reality of this game.
This is sad that Cryptic has to resort to obscurity to hold on to as many players as possible.
My advice is to let the players know the cold hard truth and let them decide if they want to stay with the game or not.
Enough with this P.R. B.S. if the game is doing as well as your claiming then none of this BS is necessary.
1) Fire your Systems Team Lead. Whoever was responsible for Season 7's Dilithium PR nightmare obviously hasn't learned anything yet...
2) Add more fleet marks now and not some theoretic time in the future. Frankly, there's not a lot of trust after the whole PVP revamp is coming soon! Klingons will get a full faction! Feature episodes are going to be almost every week! Soon has fifty fifty change of being never.
3) If (not) Season 8 includes any nerfing to the economies, strip it now. Season 7 was bad enough...
Due to past bad experiences with PUG groups, I don't group with non-fleet members. Due to our scattered playing times, it's not unusual for there to be only 2 or 3 of us in our small fleet on at any given time. So we normally just do regular missions together which doesn't gain us any fleet marks. There is only so many freaking times I can do a given mission before I am bored out of my skull and no longer wish to play the game. Now you've just eliminated the one way I could earn fleet marks for our starbase and still maintain an interest in playing the game. This change just eliminated most of my motivation to even bother to login. If you didn't want us to earn both dilithium and fleet marks for the foundry mission repeatable, then why didn't you just make it an either/or reward so you had to choose to receive either the fleet marks or the dilithium? Or why don't you add a small fleet mark rewards to all the regular missions that you get if you are grouped and complete the mission with at least one other member of your fleet?
All this would have been a non-issue if a solution for the removal of the FM reward had been slated to roll out at most two weeks from now.
But no, they couldn't even do that. Instead they set themselves up for a ****storm they know they can't correct until May. As if that wasn't bad enough, they aren't at liberty to discuss their own fixes, which they must know would potentially quiet the less bloodthirsty posters.
It's like they wanted everyone to rage. Everything about the execution of this is godawful.
I love it when you rage handsome phaser dude - rage on!!
Average max level player refining per day is nowhere near the cap yet. Once the average Dilithium refined per day by max level players gets closer to the cap, we'll consider it.
Is this something you would contribute to players having to do more content in order to get that Dilithium than they previously did and therefore not having time to hit the cap anymore?
Were the changes of reduced rewards but more variety in activities that reward them, thus reducing the amount any one person earns per hour, part of long term plans for a Dilithium Mine Fleet Holding? Before the Dilithium changes I had no trouble hitting the cap in 1-1.5 hours. Now I'm lucky to do it in 2-2.5 hours.
Any chance of new missions/activities that will reward Fleet Marks prior to the "Big Update"? Maybe even DOFF assignments that you can only get while at your Starbase/Embassy?
I'll add what leaves me torn and what I see as Cryptic's constant source of trouble when it comes to communicating things:
Cryptic uses an iterative design approach and is production and technology oriented.
That makes Cryptic seem like a place I'd be interested in WORKING at but honestly turns me off heavily as a customer and is, I think, a bad approach for forging customer relationships or even communicating with customers.
As a CUSTOMER, I'd like Cryptic to drop all three of those planks.
As a customer what I want is:
A company that uses committed VISION oriented design approach and is marketing/service (rather than production) oriented and which values entertainment/storytelling over technology.
If it stops being fun or isn't what every designer wants, you slog through with an eye on the final VISION.You train and treat your employees as customer service reps or personalities who forge trustworthy and engaging relationships with the players and the source material rather than treating them as technicians/engineers/designers; the performer rather than the designer model is what I'm talking about. Finally, you consider mechanics as gimmicks and commit instead to creating material that focuses on narrative flow rather than gimmicks and emotional touchstones in content through polish/music/dialogue rather than new features brought on through code branch mergers and too clever by half game systems. More storyteller, less systems architect. (Also story != text. A carnival tunnel of love is a narrative too and is the basis for dungeon design in many other MMOs.)
The blue option is what Cryptic is in my eyes. I'd be fascinated and energized to work in that environment. But it has minimal appeal to me as a longterm customer. As a customer, what engages me is the green option.
And what does that have to do with this?
The disconcerting changes are iterative and create feelings of insecurity and unreliability in a userbase that is already spending real money on a virtual product.
The tendency towards production focus (ie. a software factory rather than a full service restaurant) causes Cryptic to replace content and tweak items solely because the new design is better from a design perspective, emphasizing quality of design over communications and relationship building.
This is again reflected in a technology focus. You're tightening bolts on how things are done rather than focusing on creating compelling emotional appeals. Again, narrative doesn't require text. I've got a friend who used to teach Disney's animators about narrative and worked on an ARG. Narrative can be a big part of PvP or UI design or combat scenario design or even corporate history and trajectory. Instead of focusing on how content or systems are assembled, focus on making the player feel special and engaged with the process.
As someone who has been a designer and an artist, I REALLY, REALLY get the appeal of how Cryptic operates. As a consumer and student of marketing and narrative, I don't think it's forward thinking, sustainable, or suitably relationship oriented. And I can point to a few dozen posts in this thread where your vocal consumers are saying, "It's the relationship, stupid." (To the tune of, "It's the economy, stupid." I don't think anybody at Cryptic is stupid.) But I think the culture needs to be reinvented. More Apple with its blissful tea ceremony product unboxing, less Microsoft with its overclocked, more advanced processors in a cardboard box. More Wonka, less Silicon Valley. More Quiznos, less Subway. More Starbuck's, less Dunkin Donuts. More Target as a consumer experience destination and less Wal-Mart as a merchandising powerhouse. More Pixar, less Warner Bros. Don't be a Jon Peters, be a Peter Jackson.
Tensions are high and this thread moves fast. But I HOPE, HOPE, HOPE somebody reads this and gets it. Cryptic's current course won't doom the company tomorrow or a year from now but I really, honestly, religiously believe that if somebody reads this manifesto and takes it to heart that Cryptic can be so much more. And the potential as an entertainment house, making hard and reliable commitments and exceeding them, that gets squandered on being a production studio, making enigmatic statements and wiki-ing game mechanics -- well... It drives your fans batty.
Comments
There are only so many things in game, actually less that offer fleet marks. As you only quoted a partial statement to what I originally said... having the ability to play missions that were not the same thing over and over again was nice, we did this as a fleet and at the same time were given fleet marks which helped our but small fleet.
Now..... to get fleet marks, yes we can still do foundry missions but to get rewarded with FLEET MARKS, we need to stick to fleet actions, do you understand now.. that means we can only do these to get FLEET MARKS, so basically they are forcing something onto us that FOR US, in unjoyable.... before at least we had the option of picking different missions each day to do our daily with, and yes some did the occasional fleet action to get more marks...
What they should do as someone mentioned which is a great idea is to allow a group of 3-5 to team up and be able to do the foundry daily and get the fleet marks. Least we would have the option to still enjoy something without the need to be doing a set things over and over...
If there going to force people to do set things then bring in open pvp..
and FMs...
Dil is never a problem with Zen just a click away.
Would have had more respect for cryptic if they had FMs for sale because at least their intent would be more visible versus the needing a hook and carrot to keep us around.
The hand is not worrying about being bitten, it's the TRIBBLE and mouth that look to be having an issue.
- KDF Ambassador Syon vocalizing her objection to the discussions of possible peace talks with the UFP due to recent Borg and Undine activities. Hegh'bat, Stardate 66588.8
Maybe it wouldn't be bad thing. At least a new company might be American and make a less grindy MMO using the Star Trek franchise. I'm sure with all the new Trek coming out this year some other companies would jump at the chance to do it.
Lifetime Sub since June 2010
The current fleet holding system is fair, and I agree with the changes to investigate officer reports and removing exploits.
That said I wouldn't mind seeing more Fleet events, including some that are pvp.
I've suggested it before and recognize it would require tech that did not exist when starbases were added but I prefer what I'd call Option C or the WoW option.
That is to say: I think fleet level/base/holding progression should be tuned to be moderately easy for a fleet of around 20 players but such that characters have a higher personal investment to access fleet rewards.
The way certain other games handle this is by having a Fleet/Guild reputation. It is relatively easy (not trivial but doable easily in under a year) for a fleet to progress its rewards. This may require a fleet to engage in diverse playstyles but is fairly quick.
However, a fleet unlocking access to rewards does not translate into any PLAYER or CHARACTER unlocking access to rewards and the player must somehow champion the fleet/guild or participate in group content with fleetmates to gain personal access to what the fleet has unlocked.
In this version, almost all fleets might reach T5 Starbase in under six months but personally gaining access to fleet rewards would require participation in the actual fleet. (One option here could be a Fleet Reputations which actually consumes Lifetime Fleet Reputation. thus, progress in a Fleet rep is based on fleet loyalty.)
Wasn't 25 considered a large fleet prior to starbases being added? I think what confuses some is that devs once seemed to indicate that 25+ was the threshold for a "large" fleet whereas the new design seems to suggest that 25 is no longer considered large. This is a shame because I know many people who splintered off with the intent of being active in multiple fleets on multiple alts, hoping that 25 would be considered "large" in the design... and therefore seeking to maximize diversity and presence of theme fleets by deliberately not having more than 25 in a fleet, even when two fleets had mostly the same players behind the keyboard. The idea being to maintain and participate in multiple themed fleets.
I know Caspian has multiple Fed Fleets partly under this expectation and that some of our podcasters advocated AGAINST having more than 25 characters in a fleet to maximize the diversity of fleets in game.
For example: Thirty players assumed that since they were a large fleet, they would max a starbase in 7 months. So they positioned alts in seperate fleets designated for PvP, STFs, roleplay. I sense a lot of buyer's remorse now that 30 is no longer considered large and frustration from players who feel penalized for parking and designating alts as a PvP alt in a labeled PvP Fleet, a Roleplay alt in a Roleplay fleet, etc.
The design seems to discourage fleet s from forming around single game mechanics or gameplay styles, which is traditionally a staple of MMO guild organization. It isn't that the players had no desire to participate in all facets of the game. It's that they wanted designated alts and fleets each directed at a single gameplay approach each.
Ie. My PvP alt does nothing but PvP and is in a fleet that does nothing but PvP. My roleplay alt is in a roleplay fleet where the fleet only organizes for roleplay and nothing else.
I realize a lot has changed but I feel STO has moved from an alt friendly game to penalizing people for alts -- particularly single purpose alts -- and single purpose fleets.
Adding more queues to wait in is fixing the problem. LOL
Now if one got FMs for the wait invested...
- KDF Ambassador Syon vocalizing her objection to the discussions of possible peace talks with the UFP due to recent Borg and Undine activities. Hegh'bat, Stardate 66588.8
You are so right bro.
Thing is i have a Job and i don't need another. And even if i wanted another Job i certainly would not want a Job as boring as the Grind in STO is these Days.
Oh and one more thing. The one who keeps thinking its a good idea to take something away and everything is fine by telling its coming something else for it....someday, that one should better not work in an Industrie where you need to make Money. Just my opinion.
First, I agreed that the AFK style Foundry missions were bad and people were rewarded regardless. Those needed nuked. The farming missions were fine. You at least had to fight and be active.
Second, I hated that you pulled the IOR wrapper from the game with FMs as a reward. Why? Because lets face it here, my fleet (as well as others) is pretty small and we pretty much wanted to keep it like that. Less drama and conflicts..etc..etc Plus we are a group of friends and the fleet was created to keep us together as friends, not as a guild to meet status quo that many larger guilds/fleets are made up to do. Taking that out hurts our type of fleets dramatically. When it was added, it was a sigh of relief for us, now we're back to were we started.
Now you say fleet marks were designed to be obtained by fleet actions only, but my small fleet (as again are others) are made up of people scattered across the US and Europe. It is simply not possible for us all to be online at the same time all the time. Therefore when only a couple of us are online, what can we do as a fleet during that time? Not a damn thing. So how are we to contribute to the fleet projects, gather fleet marks and dump into the projects? With the IORs at least when members were online solo or whatever we COULD contribute to the fleet as members of the fleet. Considering my fleet is roughly 20 players and we are running two fleets (one Fed, one KDF) we are working twice as hard and using our Alt chars to supplement during off peak times. Im proud of my guys that both our bases are at T3. But we all contribute what we can, when we can when we arent all online simultaneously. That is what TEAM WORK is...everybody pulling their own weight and contributing to the whole, not having to always do it together as a whole 100% of the time. Christ, its how Cryptic and every other functional entity functions and you should know this Dan. In many other MMOs I've played (and I've played A LOT of MMOs), one did not have to be grouped 24/7 to contribute to the guild/fleet. Simply playing the game and adding resources you've earned made you a contributing member. STO should be no different in that aspect given the reasons I stated above.
Furthermore, when is the last time you and the Devs have jumped into public queues for fleet actions in the game? Your metrics may say one thing, but unless your seeing it first hand, metrics dont mean TRIBBLE. Its HORRIBLE. Not only are the rewards too small for the time and effort, but also you have AFK leeching, players half-arsed trying and under leveled players joining in that can't pull weight and die way to fast/often working off the backs of us that are. Also the KDF queue on average takes an hour or more just to pop and NEVER does during off peak hours. Its ridiculous.
My suggestions.
Put the IORs back and extend the cooldown from 30mins to say maybe 2 to 3 hours. That would slow down the FM accumulation to standardized proportions and keep the current dilithium scaling to average mission length.
Increase the mark counts for fleet actions and maybe add bonus marks for the skilled players that perform well in those to reward the non-leechers. Base it off buffs, debuffs, dmg..etc.. so that Sci and Engineering captains benefit and not just overrun by tacticals.
Maybe add small FM rewards to STFs, the Mirror Incursion event and the like as they are grouped only events.
For the love of god, do something with Nukara. That place is WORTHLESS. The only people that go there are ones going for the Tholian gear set and/or people that don't know any better. Its dubbed 'Nuke' for a good reason, because its as barren as a nuclear wasteland.
Maybe even consider adding FM rewards for replaying the old Episodes. Out of my 6 characters, I've only played through it twice because there is no reason to replay them at their current value. One can level simply by patrols, Doff'ing and Foundry. This could be a good thing to add replay value to the originals.
Add a way to convert Romulan and Omega Marks into Fleet Marks. My main has 2130 Rom Marks and well over 3k Omega marks that are just sitting after getting the gear I wanted and Tier 5 rep in both.
GPL? Is anyone really buying holo-projectors anymore with GPL? Buying FMs with it could be a nice way to add some livelyness back to Qwarks bar at the Dabo table.
for examble
Fleet mission A.gives 75 for missions and 15 for optional a, 15 more for optional b.
also keep dil way it is its manageable.
Treat this like stfs quick and less grindy for small fleets then every one wins.
hope this gives insite dstal.
-Spells
| Dues Ex Mechina |
Fleet Leader
Here here,
Dan, I'm sorry, But I really have to agree with the sentiment in this post.
I've ground so many STFs at this point that I feel I just might go out of my skull.
The same missions over and over again, then the new rep system, and we're grinding them all over again and again.
What's more, I personally feel terribly conflicted when I log on nowadays.
Do I assist fleetmates grinding fleetmarks, or do I grind Omega/Romulan marks or whatever damned currency out of the ever growing list of currencies to meet my own personal reputation goals?
I can't tell you how often I have to turn down playing with my fleet, because of conflicted goals now.
Yes, the foundry had/has it's exploits, but honestly, It helped me get SOME of the specific currency I needed quickly, to contribute to fleet goals, so I could get on with some of my own personal goals/rewards.
I feel I'm all over the place with my efforts and overall, it's not a very satisfying experience.
In recent STO interviews they kept touting how the foundry is something they are focusing heavily on in the game so its funny to see how much player animosity surrounds it now. Not to mention most players don't feel they have time for "real" foundry content anyway.
It would be nice to see a focus on some actual new content...not more grindfests and perpetual rebalancing of existing content...
Most definitely agreed!
Lifetime Sub since June 2010
it looks that way from the things in dans post which will drive a lot of players away from sto , i would be one of the first tbh because how i see it the smaller the fleet the more you are punished . with the dilithium refining cap at 8k every 24 hours and not likely to change at all things will only go up in price , i say it will get harder for smaller fleets reading the first post of this thread and prices of stuff in the lower tiers will proberly increase .
prove me incorrect Dan ! , i feel sorry for the people who spend time making these foundry missions that will most proberly not get played much now these changes are coming into force . it is becoming a full time job just getting the fleet marks and dilithium etc instead of being a fun game to play , i know that MMO's contain some grind but the way things are heading thats all STO will be .
DELTA PRICE RISING
This also is a very good point. There is just way too damn many currencies and objectives in the game now that spreads things waaaaaay to far out. Between EC, Dilith, FMs, RMs and OMs you torn between doing things for your fleet and friends, or yourself. Consolidate some of this stuff. Like I said in my post, add FMs to STFs and/or the Romulan dailies so that you can accomplish both.
At least with the IORs we could gather dilith, FMs and ECs in a consolidated sweep instead of having to spread out too thin.
We have lives Dan. We can't play STO 10 hours a day man.
If there is a fixed cost and a variable cost to the missions, it is still in the large fleets favor.
y=mx+b
Do the math for this: Cost for 1 SB mission to progress=
20,000 + 500(x) dilithium/FM/Whatever makes you happy
10 man fleet = 25,000 dilithium = 2,500 dil/player
100 man fleet = 70,000 dilithium= 700 dil/player
1000 man fleet= 520,000 dilithium= 520 dil/player
Is that really penalizing a large fleet?
You also have the deferi warzone missions that give out both omega and fleetmarks... so... how about adding fleet marks to stf runs. Deferi warzones arent stfs, there objective type missions that groups do... not really fleet orientated but.. its a group based mission that fleets can do togeather, sooooo.. as stfs are one of the same principles, stf should also give out fleet marks... So lets see some change if your taking out fleet marks from SOLO based stuff...even though foundry daily technicly could be grouped and fleet orientated.
Or you going to turn around and say other... :rolleyes:
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=4247820&postcount=1
Thank you. I was trying to work out a good counter-post when you posted this.
U.S.S. Indianapolis NCC-94668
90th Special Operations Task Force
I think if you are going to throw metrics at us as an excuse, we should at least be able to examine the numbers ourselves.
So here is a challenge.
Let's see these metrics. Not only that, let's see your active subscriber count for the last 12 months. FTP as well. I don't wanna hear "we have blah blah blah accounts!" Anyone can say that. For instance, how many fleet advertisements do I hear where the advertiser claims they have "200 members" when it's really just 10 people with 20 characters each? No one ever wants to admit how many real members they have...unless they are a small fleet. Interesting.
We're smart people, many of us with college educations. I am sure we can figure the numbers out. But then again...maybe that's the fear? You've seen instances where someone has cracked little codes on things like drop rates and the like. Remember the OMEGA boxes? You refused to give us numbers on those as well, but one of the players figured it out.
At least when one of your competitors lost subscribers, they didn't try to hide it. They also don't hide things like drop rates or perform stealth patches on certain things and then say "Oh yeah, we were always gonna do that" only after they are found out.
Yeah, maybe it was always the plan to get rid of the fleet marks, but did you ever bother telling us with anything more than 24 hours notice? Are we not smart enough to understand your "Enron" numbers?
I'm not trying to be insulting even though I feel I've been insulted. I just want to be treated like an adult and not like a child. These are serious questions. Can I get serious, straightforward answers? Probably not.
I got to page 21 before I decided to just post these simple solutions.
Now, I play Pardus. Still do. Granted, I am not as active as I used to be but I still go in and keep my two Starbases running as they are cornerstones to at least one area of a sector block's economy.
I also am not in a Fleet and apparently don't want to be. I enjoy being a lone wolf but could be talked into the right fleet. I like smaller more cohesive fleets.
That said, here is the idea I am posing....drop the Fleet Mark system period. Have everything cost Dilithium as far as Fleets are concerned. Make Mergers (if they do get implemented) an optional thing. Lock Box Keys could cost Dilithium and be in the D-store or made by Fleets. This would also drop them off the Exchange or at least lower the prices from the 1.5 million EC.
This is just off the top of my head from a Level 42 Fleet-less player.
My issue isn't that they pulled FM from Foundry. It makes sense to pull FM from Foundry missions.. My issue that instead of doing a balanced approach to the issue, by killed FM and not replacing with something else was just plain unfair. Also announcing it 1 day before holodeck patch wasn't that great either. Or that now that the Large Fleets are finishing their Starbases the rest of us are just screwed until they make fix the balance issue in the future.
Anyway.. Not happy.. But who cares..
But no, they couldn't even do that. Instead they set themselves up for a ****storm they know they can't correct until May. As if that wasn't bad enough, they aren't at liberty to discuss their own fixes, which they must know would potentially quiet the less bloodthirsty posters.
It's like they wanted everyone to rage. Everything about the execution of this is godawful.
I Support Disco | Disco is Love | Disco is Life
Lets face it, you cant design a fool proof system to balance the small to Mega size fleets and they knew that from the start, but couldn't admit to it without them getting hate from the small fleets out there.
That?s why they never showed the requirements for each tier until it was reached.
Well, well, well, looks like the cats out of the bag and now Cryptic has thrown out their puppet to state what they already knew from the beginning.
Well played Cryptic, your PR people are doing their jobs very well putting word in your mouth to help obscure the reality of this game.
This is sad that Cryptic has to resort to obscurity to hold on to as many players as possible.
My advice is to let the players know the cold hard truth and let them decide if they want to stay with the game or not.
Enough with this P.R. B.S. if the game is doing as well as your claiming then none of this BS is necessary.
1) Fire your Systems Team Lead. Whoever was responsible for Season 7's Dilithium PR nightmare obviously hasn't learned anything yet...
2) Add more fleet marks now and not some theoretic time in the future. Frankly, there's not a lot of trust after the whole PVP revamp is coming soon! Klingons will get a full faction! Feature episodes are going to be almost every week! Soon has fifty fifty change of being never.
3) If (not) Season 8 includes any nerfing to the economies, strip it now. Season 7 was bad enough...
I love it when you rage handsome phaser dude - rage on!!
Is this something you would contribute to players having to do more content in order to get that Dilithium than they previously did and therefore not having time to hit the cap anymore?
Were the changes of reduced rewards but more variety in activities that reward them, thus reducing the amount any one person earns per hour, part of long term plans for a Dilithium Mine Fleet Holding? Before the Dilithium changes I had no trouble hitting the cap in 1-1.5 hours. Now I'm lucky to do it in 2-2.5 hours.
Any chance of new missions/activities that will reward Fleet Marks prior to the "Big Update"? Maybe even DOFF assignments that you can only get while at your Starbase/Embassy?
I mean, all of it, every single post.
Really D'Stahl?
Are you perhaps beginning to realise that this terrible decision is going to backfire on you?
Are you getting the point yet?
This isn't just a normal knee jerk reaction to change.
This is us telling you, you've got this terribly, appallingly wrong.
Months waiting for a solution isn't remotely good enough.
I reckon you have hours, maybe a day or two, before the damage becomes irreversible.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylRqJapI0wQ
Cryptic uses an iterative design approach and is production and technology oriented.
That makes Cryptic seem like a place I'd be interested in WORKING at but honestly turns me off heavily as a customer and is, I think, a bad approach for forging customer relationships or even communicating with customers.
As a CUSTOMER, I'd like Cryptic to drop all three of those planks.
As a customer what I want is:
A company that uses committed VISION oriented design approach and is marketing/service (rather than production) oriented and which values entertainment/storytelling over technology.
If it stops being fun or isn't what every designer wants, you slog through with an eye on the final VISION.You train and treat your employees as customer service reps or personalities who forge trustworthy and engaging relationships with the players and the source material rather than treating them as technicians/engineers/designers; the performer rather than the designer model is what I'm talking about. Finally, you consider mechanics as gimmicks and commit instead to creating material that focuses on narrative flow rather than gimmicks and emotional touchstones in content through polish/music/dialogue rather than new features brought on through code branch mergers and too clever by half game systems. More storyteller, less systems architect. (Also story != text. A carnival tunnel of love is a narrative too and is the basis for dungeon design in many other MMOs.)
The blue option is what Cryptic is in my eyes. I'd be fascinated and energized to work in that environment. But it has minimal appeal to me as a longterm customer. As a customer, what engages me is the green option.
And what does that have to do with this?
The disconcerting changes are iterative and create feelings of insecurity and unreliability in a userbase that is already spending real money on a virtual product.
The tendency towards production focus (ie. a software factory rather than a full service restaurant) causes Cryptic to replace content and tweak items solely because the new design is better from a design perspective, emphasizing quality of design over communications and relationship building.
This is again reflected in a technology focus. You're tightening bolts on how things are done rather than focusing on creating compelling emotional appeals. Again, narrative doesn't require text. I've got a friend who used to teach Disney's animators about narrative and worked on an ARG. Narrative can be a big part of PvP or UI design or combat scenario design or even corporate history and trajectory. Instead of focusing on how content or systems are assembled, focus on making the player feel special and engaged with the process.
As someone who has been a designer and an artist, I REALLY, REALLY get the appeal of how Cryptic operates. As a consumer and student of marketing and narrative, I don't think it's forward thinking, sustainable, or suitably relationship oriented. And I can point to a few dozen posts in this thread where your vocal consumers are saying, "It's the relationship, stupid." (To the tune of, "It's the economy, stupid." I don't think anybody at Cryptic is stupid.) But I think the culture needs to be reinvented. More Apple with its blissful tea ceremony product unboxing, less Microsoft with its overclocked, more advanced processors in a cardboard box. More Wonka, less Silicon Valley. More Quiznos, less Subway. More Starbuck's, less Dunkin Donuts. More Target as a consumer experience destination and less Wal-Mart as a merchandising powerhouse. More Pixar, less Warner Bros. Don't be a Jon Peters, be a Peter Jackson.
Tensions are high and this thread moves fast. But I HOPE, HOPE, HOPE somebody reads this and gets it. Cryptic's current course won't doom the company tomorrow or a year from now but I really, honestly, religiously believe that if somebody reads this manifesto and takes it to heart that Cryptic can be so much more. And the potential as an entertainment house, making hard and reliable commitments and exceeding them, that gets squandered on being a production studio, making enigmatic statements and wiki-ing game mechanics -- well... It drives your fans batty.
That is all.