Someone stated it quite well earlier: 'Star Trek Online: Into Darkness.' because thats where your taking it...
I said that. I can be so damn witty at times.
I guess all I have to add is if the few foundry authors did or did not have something to do with this, they're still gonna suffer. I can already see people purposely giving 1 star reviews strictly out of spite. I mean why wouldn't they? Now we are stuck playing a mission we don't want to run, earning a reward we have no use for.
And one more thing...where exactly was it stated that the change to add the 50 fleet mark reward was for a limited time? I don't remember reading that. Or was that just another in a long list of things that Cryptic happens to forget to mention to us.
No, I am not who you think I am. I am someone different. I am instead a banana.
I have two suggestions, which could/should be implemented at the earliest possible convenience;
1. Add Dilithium rewards (static amount) to every Cryptic-made mission in the game, including the Featured Episodes. These Dilithium rewards should be an average of what a player-made Foundry mission might yield. I was picking up 6-700 Dilithium on some Foundry missions earlier, while others were considerably less. An average of 480 Dilithium per Episode might not be a bad idea, and it would promote the usage of actually running YOUR missions as well as the Foundry content.
2. Add Fleet Mark rewards to every Fleet Action in the game. I understand Fleet Marks is a currency intended for Fleet activities, but as you well know, you don't even need to be in a fleet, to participate in "Fleet Actions" despite the name. And the current "Fleet Events" which were added in Season 6, may require you to be in a fleet, it does NOT require the entire group to be in the same fleet. Yet strangely, they reward Fleet Marks (but Fleet Actions currently -don't- reward Marks).
Both of these suggestions are in line with the changes coming.
Well, that's a lot of text. Let me start of with some Sun Tzu;"When you surround an army, leave an outlet free. Do not press a desperate foe too hard." wise words then, wise words now...
Now, some quotes from the post:
" While there are always exceptions, for the most part, the data shows that small fleets are more starved for Dilithium than they are for Fleet Marks."
Now, perhaps, but I doubt that will remain the case with the removal of the fleetmarks from IOR.
"Likewise, even though we've removed Fleet Marks from the now super Dilithium rich Foundry mission, we will be adding Fleet Marks to other events, but not immediately."
Not immediately, could you narrow that down? With the launch of not-season 8, sooner, later?
"We are also entertaining suggestions to merge fleets or other ways that small Fleets can accelerate their progress."
If by that you mean that fleets will be merged because they are smaller then size X, please don't, worst...idea...ever. If, however, you mean are looking into ways to enable fleets to choose such a merger, that's a great idea. Would a merger also mean that earned exp towards the starbase get's caried over or just members?
"Just as max level players are now earning far more Dilithium than they ever have due to adjustments that we've made along the way, we will continue to adjust Fleet Marks in the same way."
Best news I heard all day.
"We want Fleet Progression to be a reward for Fleet Gameplay."
Would you consider doing STF's with a team consisting of fleetmembers as fleet gameplay? Perhaps by making a fleet private queu similar to the private queu's we have now that would only allow fleet members to be invited? I would absolutely *love* that, and I'm sure so would others.
Looking forward to see what you guys come up with, it's not to late to turn all this activity and attention on the forums in something beneficial for the entire community.
Lost and Delirious... and Disenchanted too Apparently some forum posters have diplomatic immunity nowadays, where can I get mine?
How about fixing the bugs in the Foundry to better allow a team to complete it, thus allowing a team based award in Foundry for team based play.
How the Devs see Star Trek, apparently:
Star Trek: The Original Grind
Star Trek: The Next Grind
Star Trek: Deep Space Grind
Star Trek: Voyage to the Grind
1. Fleets under 25 are going to have a hard time completing projects = by design.
2. We will be adding more Fleet Marks, just not on Foundry missions. We will be making several changes up until the May update in order to bring Fleet Mark earning back in line: including reclassifying the difference between Events and Fleet Actions, Adjusting (increasing/decreasing) Fleet Marks with a focus on giving more Fleet Marks in Fleet Based Events, Possibly merging Fleets, Possibly offering other incentives for Small Fleets.
3. Data shows, most small Fleets are far more starved for Dilithium than they are for Fleet Marks. There is need for both, but more need right now for Dilithium than Fleet Marks - thus today's change. More Fleet Marks are coming - just not in Foundry play.
So because we have a small group of friends (originally from CoH) we should not even attempt to advance our small fleet beyond where it is? Good to know. I don't want to waste my time in this game. Really the only reason I played this game was that my friends were here, and I could do something constructive on my maxed level characters. I really see no reason to log in now since my friends are not logging either because of this.
IMHO, the Time/Reward of the fleet tiers was already way out of whack, but I did it to help my small group. With this change, the time/reward is just plain ridiculous.
Some players like to do only solo content so restricting Fleet Marks to group activity will severely restrict their ability to earn Fleet Marks. The only ways for them to get Fleet Marks is the Commendation XP to Fleet Marks system and Fleet dailies which don't give enough. The Foundry missions were a way to get Fleet Marks without doing content they disliked.
So in this massive posting you said "We're not giving this back. Too bad."
Also, this whole thing about "leave your feedback here and we will look over it" was more of a stahl tactic to buy time until you all released something like this, trying to explain why this was done.
Fact is I don't want to wait months while you figure things out. If you make a change this drastic to the game, you need to have something to replace it now...not months from now.
But I have to hand it to you. You got me. You got me good. Got me for plenty of cash. Well played. Don't spend it all in one place.
I was pretty pissed off last night and spoke out of anger. After sleeping on it and reading what the OP stated, that soon-trademark **** is not cutting it for me any longer.
Probably doubt if mr. DStahl will notice my "voting with my wallet" so I am not going to use that here nor shall I wait for May to act swiftly and decisively.
Maybe the new metrics might take into account the cash spent on my 7 characters which will now boldly go to where the toons from the other games that I have burnt bridges with, go?
Syon: "Get us out of here, Number One! Maximum Warp!"
Wallet: " Yes, Ma'am!"
*whooooosh*
"Dammit J'mpok! I'm a Warrior, not a Worrier!"
- KDF Ambassador Syon vocalizing her objection to the discussions of possible peace talks with the UFP due to recent Borg and Undine activities.Hegh'bat, Stardate 66588.8
Thanks for confirming that you're not in the pocket of a select group of elitist and arrogant Foundry authors who engage in massive conspiracies to rob players of their fleet marks.
The subtlety is appreciated.
He niether confirmed nor denied, so you're not out of hot water yet.
How the Devs see Star Trek, apparently:
Star Trek: The Original Grind
Star Trek: The Next Grind
Star Trek: Deep Space Grind
Star Trek: Voyage to the Grind
I'm going to come out and say it. I agree with this, and I'll even explain my reasoning.
First, some background. Our fleet has 7 people in it. Yup 7. And we like it that way. We knew that going into this that building up the starbase was going to be a long haul.
I always thought it a bit weird that the Foundry gave the marks when most of the missions are geared toward solo play. I'm totally guilty of getting the marks this way, but I was always under the impression that Fleet marks were supposed to reward group play.
I also firmly agree with the statement that smaller fleets hang on dilithium over fleet marks. That's been our experience as well. Part of me almost wishes it was an either/or fleet marks vs. dilithium for projects.
I get that the game is constantly being refined, but its a little frustrating to constantly have a moving target of finding content I enjoy with the rewards I'm looking for.
With those said, my problem with the fleet projects is a similar problem I've been having with the reputation system, and that is the fact that the projects are getting more expensive at the same time that we are required to do more of them.
As an example (this is really just an example). To go from Tier 0 to Tier 1 it costs us 10 widgets. Widgets cost 10 EC. Okay, we round up 100 EC, get the 10 widgets, and boom. Tier 1. To go from Tier 1 to Tier 2 it takes 15 widgets and the widgets now cost 15 EC, so suddenly it costs 225 EC. I get the increasing cost, but why not raise cost of items or number of projects but not both.
<signature under reconstruction>
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Want cheap commodities? Yeah you do. Commodity Cheat Sheet (includes food and data samples)
Want to make the game better? Might I suggest this form
Just as max level players are now earning far more Dilithium than they ever have due to adjustments that we've made along the way, we will continue to adjust Fleet Marks in the same way.
Yes we are earning more dilithium, but what's the point unless the refining cap is increased to reflect this
This will probably be on page 6 by the time I post this. So I don't know if it will be seen.
But I suggested to Branflakes on Twitter yesterday to add FMs to any mission that is played as a team with a 2hr cooldown for repeating that mission (removing the "Spin the Wheel" loophole).
Calculate how much a fleet member could earn as a member of a fleet action and provide a FM reward at a similar scale to every mission that is played as a team.
All you will need to do is add an FM loot table that simply looks if the mission was completed as a team. If not, no FM. If yes, reward FM.
"If you have never used Cello, I'm not interested in your browser opinion."
___________________________
In game: Commadore_Bob; Joined Jul 2009; That post count + 20,000
Concurrently, we also closed a major loophole in Foundry missions in Season 7 which removed Dilithium rewards from what many considered "exploitative" Foundry missions (literally "log in click a button" get a boat of Dilithium). The number of players who were exploiting this type of mission was vast and so there were several weeks where we aggressively adjusted Dilithium rewards in order to keep Dilithium earnings back in line with our goal of getting more Dilithium into players hands without using the exploit.
...
We did this for a number of reasons. While we want players to enjoy Foundry missions, they should not be the one stop shop for all Rewards in the game.
I predicted this under my old name on the old forum software. When the Foundry was first introduced to the public, I spelled out exactly how people would use it as an exploit tool. I went on to explain how the exploit missions would become the sole overriding reason people play Foundry missions and how they would become dependent on these missions. I further went on to mention how people would feel ENTITLED to those rewards and revolt like a bunch of addicts if attempts were made AFTER THE FACT to correct the exploits. Of course this was back in the day before "marks" and "dilthium." I was more concerned about people exploiting EC and Loot then.
Funny how my predictions were born out by actual reality. A bit of business-management and psychology goes a long way twords predicting how people will behave.
Dan, the #1 reason Mark production dropped off in favor of an endless variety of daily-clickers is this: You have yet to release any NEW MARK GRIND CONTENT since the initial introduction. Plain and simple: No one is playing Incursion, no one is playing Colony, no one plays the Starbase Defense missions.
I sit here on the KDF side for hours waiting for people to join up. Fleetmates are board out of their mind running the same handful of missions over and over again.
With the Foundry, one could sit down and come up with a short simple easy way to earn marks and Dil. It should have never been as easy as the Daily Clicker missions... but the possibility of making a short combat mission that paid well was there. That was the intent behind Battleship Royal Rumble.
As it stands now the situation is DIRE. NO ONE WANTS TO GRIND THE SAME STFS FOR OMEGA MARKS. WE ARE SICK OF THE SAME MISSIONS OVER AND OVER AGAIN FOR FLEET MARKS.
Cryptic, you want us to play the game YOU NEED TO PROVIDE US WITH A REASON TO DO SO.
I am calling upon you to release two new grind maps per week. You have the technology to do so. The Foundry allows someone at the office to sit down and bang out an ORIGINAL MAP with an original goal. Tweek it so it requires five people. Problem solved.
Or how about this. You have an engine that generates a RANDOM MISSION with a RANDOM GOAL with a RANDOM OPPONENT in the exploration clusters.
Dust that off, amp up the difficulty, tweek it to require five people, and add a small amount of Marks.
Now you have virtually unlimited grind content, that rewards players for teamwork with a very minimum effort on Cryptic's part.
So how about it. Meet our demand for new grind content, and people won't need a reason to exploit the Foundry.
Both of these suggestions are in line with the changes coming.
See, now this is great news.... But the big question on everyones mind is: WHEN????
Changes should've been made to both ends ofthe spectrum at the same time. Not yank the reward from one place, and then arbitrarily re-add it elsewhere "sometime later on, in a few months".
Well I guess thanks for the Christmas present. Wish I had know it was such when you gave it. I would've played more foundry during the holidays instead of grinding my two alts and running the winter wonderland.
Well I hate it...with a passion. But I understand the logic.
To be frank I can reach my dilithium cap without the Foundry mission. It helps but isn't mandatory. The Fleet Marks were actually a superior reward. So I look forward to what other sources of fleet marks you add in.
If the goal of the past patch was to get more people playing the foundry you succeeded, at least with me. Before the December patch, I played three five minute battle missions daily, usually a Nagus daily. If I was crunched for time then I would do the clickers. I know, I'm ashamed. But that December patch was brilliant and I started branching out. Doing a forty minute mission seemed like it was worth my time. And I played he whole spotlight section bar one or two and was waiting for you guys to highlight something else. I was hoping for the new tools to help sift through the list to the good stuff, I played the raptors trilogy (barring Raptor's Ascendance which is unplayable since you beam into a rock on the ground portion). I had just wrapped up the Olympus trilogy and was getting ready to work my way through the series, I was even gonna play that mission that delves into the Pakled backstory ninety minute juggernaught that it is (I just had to find ninety minutes). I loved some of those Foundry missions. Many of them in fact.
Now I have to grind fleet alerts. Which are vastly less enjoyable. And will take time away from me playing any foundry missions. And reward LESS fleet marks overall. And slowdown my computer. I'll take Marhawkman's suggestion to halve my resolution, I hope it helps with the extreme lag. Fingers crossed people.
(A note to Foundry authors, a suggestion. An episode of Star Trek is forty minutes. If a mission runs much longer than that, please drop a "to be continued...". Cryptic themselves did it when they broke up the STFs which as I understand it were two hours long and linked together at one point. It makes time management much easier.)
As I said above, I look forward to what you guys do to replace it.
But as a primarily and preferred solo player who likes contributing to his fleet, locking this (fleet marks) in to team events...is just aggravating. There should be a way to gain a steady amount of everything in this game without having to endure a queue. Especially for folks who don't have a great deal of time.
So in this massive posting you said "We're not giving this back. Too bad."
Also, this whole thing about "leave your feedback here and we will look over it" was more of a stahl tactic to buy time until you all released something like this, trying to explain why this was done.
Fact is I don't want to wait months while you figure things out. If you make a change this drastic to the game, you need to have something to replace it now...not months from now.
But I have to hand it to you. You got me. You got me good. Got me for plenty of cash. Well played. Don't spend it all in one place.
Loved your video. Was trying to say that in the last thread when it closed. The music was an exquisite choice.
"Rise like Lions after slumber, In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew, Which in sleep had fallen on you-Ye are many they are few"
fact I just got a survey about what I thought about PWE. I select the lowest options
That was based soly on STO.
Three years I wait for the KDF faction to be finished.
The game was starting to get better until PWE bought. Since then it gone down hill turn into a boring grind feast.
With time gate rewards. Instead of free flowing game I could play when I want as I wanted. So because that I been play other games more. GW2. World of Tanks and SWTOR.
This just stikes what I notice. Cryptic and PWE seem to be amture gaming company and master grind TRIBBLE producer.
Maybe other like this. I do not.
When Dilthium was add we told it was a time base Currency. based ON that I expect everything in the game to reward some amount of dilthium. Yet here we are a long time later. And still the way to earn dilthium are limit.
So you basically chose the lesser of two evils when it came to your 'Fleet System design' rather than go back to the drawing board and actually produce a system that was beneficial across the board and didn't gut players who wanted to keep things small and personal amongst friends maybe? And you are actively aware this is a problem 'by design', yet now you are talking of ways to make smaller Fleet's 'play hard' to earn Dilithium? Dil isn't the problem Big D, it's the 8k per day CAP. Do something about that if you really care about the shortage of DIL that much.
All these lock boxes floating around I feel like you guys are thinking yourselves into one. Nobody is complaining about DIL shortage anymore, it's abundant. You obviously know based on your 'metrics' that Fleet Marks were being achieved at a very low rate previous to the addition of Marks to the Foundry, then you obviously realize this will again be an issue now that it is removed. You make statements claiming we should 'look for' you to add more Marks to 'things' in 'the future' which sounds very similar to other statements we've heard on sensitive issues. We are still 'looking for' these to happen.
So, to sum up what I'm personally getting from this post;
-You know there is a shortage of Fleet Marks now, yet are going to do nothing about it in the foreseeable future. Months? Really?
-You know there is a shortage of DIL especially for smaller Fleets, yet you will not do anything to raise the 8k per day Cap which is the real issue.
This doesn't make any sense to me whatsoever. How does this improve anything?
See, now this is great news.... But the big question on everyones mind is: WHEN????
Changes should've been made to both ends ofthe spectrum at the same time. Not yank the reward from one place, and then arbitrarily re-add it elsewhere "sometime later on, in a few months".
Are we talking days, weeks, months???
exactly. it doesn't make sense that ANYONE would take one way of acquiring something and not replace it with something more "fleety" or acceptable to cryptic
1. Fleets under 25 are going to have a hard time completing projects = by design.
.
Here's another fact check. I made a starbase to tier 1 and halfway to tier 2 solo. It isn't hard but it is boring. And that was with the foundry rewards in place. Without them, it's not worth the effort, and many of us have run out of anything else to do in this game.
With all due respect Dan, I think you are all deeply out of touch with your playerbase. You quote metrics and numbers, but those don't gauge player happiness or satisfaction.
I have a challenge for you Dan. For the next week, using the fleet events, try to get 900 fleet marks. I did it last week. Just go for it. Walk in our shoes for the ten days and see what it's like. See what it makes you think of this game. See how much fun it really is. Then come back and lets have a conversation about fleet marks and internal metrics, ok?
I love Star Trek, Dan. I love Space Combat. I love this game you've created. For the last year this has been the only video game I've played, and I've financially supported. It's the only game I want to play. And yet as we speak I'm in the process of downloading The Old Republic and LOTR online. Because I'm tired of the grind, and increasing it for less rewards is not viable for me or my fleetmates. I'm logging into turn in my dilithium now, and that's it, and that's out of the optimistic hope that you're going to fix this problem soon.
The problems with all those numbers and metrics is they don't predict the future,Dan. If you looked at those metrics last week, when I was merrily grinding day and night, they wouldn't have told you that I'd be downloading your competitors product today and not playing yours, would they?
As a businessman, I would advise you in the strongest possible terms to listen to your customers first and foremost, and your numbers second. Things can change too quickly for your charts and graphs to reflect.
Thank you for your quick response to this unpopular issue, I like the new rewards, but the major issue is that their is so many sinks for fleet marks and other currencies, no one is going to be thrilled when you take a source of income out of a whole reward table such as the Foundry.
This seems to be the case when so many currencies are added to the game, when the underlining issue is with so many currencies (when their should not be) causes controversy when you take a avenue of obtaining any one currency away that requires so much of it to make it useful.
First off, I'd like to thank DaStahl for his comprehensive answer. This decision has affected many players negatively, as evidenced by the huge thread from which we were redirected here. Getting a prompt answer from Cryptic is a welcome change and, i hope, a sign of things to come.
So, to the points...(I will be a bit selective, for brevitys sake)
Another reason is that Fleet Marks should be for Fleet Gameplay and we will begin adjusting where Fleet Marks are granted to keep Fleet Marks in line with our Fleet gameplay goals.
Ok, I do understand your logic.......FM would, in an ideal world, be achieved by fleet actions. A change to such a system is welcome. But it needs to be wholesale, not incremental.
You've taken away a reward system that small fleets utterly rely on, and not given anything back at all at this time of writing. The change will not affect big fleets that much, but it is literally devastating to small fleets.
Over the next several months we will be adjusting where Fleet Marks are granted to be more in line with our original design - Fleet Marks are for Fleet Gameplay. This means that Fleet Marks will be granted in more places where Fleets group up for missions, because the reason you need Fleet Marks is to benefit the Fleet.
I'm sorry....months? So, small fleets are to be left with no redress for months? Why not leave things as they are until you have the new systems ready?
That said, we continue to investigate options that may help small Fleets without making it a cake-walk for Large Fleets. Because of our decision to not limit tiers based on guild size, we will not be scaling all projects based on Fleet size. What we will continue to do is find ways for small Fleets to play hard and gain the Fleet Marks and Dilithium needed to advance the Starbase. While there are always exceptions, for the most part, the data shows that small fleets are more starved for Dilithium than they are for Fleet Marks. Thus we continue to add more Dilithium to help all players, and along with that, small Fleets.
You've made a serious error in judgement. The reason dilithium was the bottleneck was because we had the foundry mission for fleet marks. Check the data in the next few weeks you will see a different picture emerge. Small fleets dying for a lack of FM. Small fleets dying for a lack of FM that you say will not be rectified for months.
Likewise, even though we've removed Fleet Marks from the now super Dilithium rich Foundry mission, we will be adding Fleet Marks to other events, but not immediately.
Sorry, but again, why the delay? small fleets as you've already indicated are handicapped. What you've done with this change is handicap them even more
Just as max level players are now earning far more Dilithium than they ever have due to adjustments that we've made along the way, we will continue to adjust Fleet Marks in the same way.
Again, a laudable aim....but the timing is off. Taking away a system relied upon by small fleets with no immediate replacement makes many feel you don't want small fleets in the game.
Hopefully this post helps to explain our position and why we continue to make the decisions we do. We want Fleet Progression to be a reward for Fleet Gameplay. We want players to earn more Dilithium. We want Foundry missions to have useful rewards. We want small Fleets to only be limited by group effort, not by artificial caps on progress.
But this change has capped progress for small fleets. If your aim is to make group effort the lynchpin (and I have zero problem with that as a fleet leader) then give us the reward we need. You've taken the reward we had away, promised us a replacement (with no definite timescale) in months. Essentially you've destroyed the incentive for small fleets to work together. Other sources of FM are simply too weak. There's no incentive anymore for small fleets to work together, merely disband and join bigger fleets.
I do appreciate the desire to make fleet bases the culmination of fleets working towards a common goal. I even appreciate the concept of making fleet marks available through fleet based actions only.
But taking away the previous system with no replacement is an appalingly short sighted decision.
There will be three big losers from all this: small fleets for all the reasons outlined above, foundry authors who lobbied for the exact changes you've implmented so hastily will also be held accountable by the player base and finally your own company.
Big fleets are all well and good, but small fleets are more numerous. A lot, and i mean a LOT of paying customers feel betrayed by this decision. Many will take their business elsewhere unless the replacement systems you are promising in months aren't moved up to a matter of days or, at most, a couple of weeks away.
As someone once said, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. This decision is one of those paving stones.
Some players like to do only solo content so restricting Fleet Marks to group activity will severely restrict their ability to earn Fleet Marks. The only ways for them to get Fleet Marks is the Commendation XP to Fleet Marks system and Fleet dailies which don't give enough. The Foundry missions were a way to get Fleet Marks without doing content they disliked.
Well... they are called FLEET marks for a reason...
altough incresing their sources shouldn't be that difficult to do, and it should be done asap
"In every age,
In every place,
The deeds of men remain the same..."
I don't know what kind of metrics your team is tinkering with Dan, but no one is going to wait MONTHS for these fleet mark changes. These need to be done SOON, as in between tomorrow and next Thursday.
Cryptic is swimming in shark infested waters, and you're bleeding profusely.
As a member of a small fleet I feel discouraged to play now really. Especially since I have limited daily play time. I understand the exploit part of officer reports and why it was addressed as it was even though it does severely hurt smaller fleets. Why not look at making some of the multiplayer missions with a choose your reward type system?
By this I mean lets say I do an STF (space or ground at either difficulty). Instead of just saying here is your Omega Marks why not let the player select their reward? With that being the case you can see which missions are popular which ones are not because they are all basically on the same level rewards wise. Then you can modify the non played or hardly ever played ones to make them more enjoyable or simply remove them and have bandwidth for other new ventures.
I know I don't want to leave my fleet I am in. I know we were looking at maybe as long as 6 months to get our Tier IV starbase if everyone was active (that was with officer reports). I don't want to join another fleet just to buy a Tier IV Assault Cruiser or Tier V Intrepid. To be honest though what you are doing is encouraging people to abandon the larger picture of many fleets to a few big ones so people can have the bigger ships. Or like I have seen in game already people selling fleet invites to get Tier V ships. This defeats the purpose you have for starbases in general.
I really think the best solution you can put forth is a choose your own rewards type scenario for most events. At least then you can see what the people like and don't like more than what they are forced to do for rewards. Then you can focus more on updates towards things that people enjoy to do to keep them invested in the STO experience rather than the STO Grind.
I would like to see FM added to any content where fleet members are teamed up. For example. A fleet decides to run Doomsday Device. IF there are three fleet members teamed, you earn X amount of FM. If there is four members, you receive Y amount of FM. If you have a full team of fleet members, you get Z amount of FM. That way, you need at least three members in a team to earn FM. Could even make it to where if there is a non fleet member in the team, no FM would be rewarded.
As for Fleet merging, I would propose an option to Request to Merge Fleet. Similar to Invite to Fleet. Leader of Fleet A sends a request to merge with Fleet B. He/she sends the request. Leader of Fleet B accepts request and Fleet C is formed. The leaders of Fleet A and B are now leaders of Fleet C. Any asset that any of Fleet A and B had that the other didn't, belongs to the new fleet. For example: Fleet A had A Room With a View, but Fleet B didn't. Fleet B had the Aquarium but Fleet A didn't. Now Fleet C has both. Any provisions/requisitions would sum up.
1. Fleets under 25 are going to have a hard time completing projects = by design.
That is fine, how about making it just as challenging to the 100+ man fleets? As it is now, they exploit their fleet size to make the projects as trivial as a clicky mission. The amounts needed should be based on a PER MEMBER effort. I don't want it "easy" I want it comparable Stop the large fleet exploit because all it shows us down here is that you
1. Don't care about small fleets
2. Don't understand why some prefer small fleet
3. Don't care that large fleets are making a mockery of the "effort" that it takes to get things done
3. Data shows, most small Fleets are far more starved for Dilithium than they are for Fleet Marks. There is need for both, but more need right now for Dilithium than Fleet Marks - thus today's change. More Fleet Marks are coming - just not in Foundry play.
I can't speak to your data as I can't see it, what I can tell you is the reason that the demand for it, is much much larger than the intake. The fact I can average 4-5K of Dill per DAY from Doffs and still run a negative number should tell you something. The fact that I have over 30K Dil waiting to refine, should also tell you something. My fleet starves from dil, because YOU have put entirely to much demand for it into the game, I would suggest instead of adding intake, you cut down demand.
Having to pay 10 and 12K dill depending on the embassy project is too much for people to do every 20 hours. Unless they use the size exploit on the fleet
In short
The current fleet system encourages folks to grow simply to exploit their size on projects to make them trivial. Reward effort, not size.
We're starved because you have put too much demand on Dilithium. Slow down the demand and the situation will change.
Am I the only one who thinks the fleet merging is a terrible idea? It's basically a slap in the faces of ppl who want to be in a small fleet. It seems that the concern isn't about making it fair for small vs. large fleets as much as it is about killing small fleets and patting the backs of large ones. Star Trek Online is becoming less and less Star Trek and, at least for the time being, has lost my interest.
Comments
I said that. I can be so damn witty at times.
I guess all I have to add is if the few foundry authors did or did not have something to do with this, they're still gonna suffer. I can already see people purposely giving 1 star reviews strictly out of spite. I mean why wouldn't they? Now we are stuck playing a mission we don't want to run, earning a reward we have no use for.
And one more thing...where exactly was it stated that the change to add the 50 fleet mark reward was for a limited time? I don't remember reading that. Or was that just another in a long list of things that Cryptic happens to forget to mention to us.
Both of these suggestions are in line with the changes coming.
Now, some quotes from the post:
" While there are always exceptions, for the most part, the data shows that small fleets are more starved for Dilithium than they are for Fleet Marks."
Now, perhaps, but I doubt that will remain the case with the removal of the fleetmarks from IOR.
"Likewise, even though we've removed Fleet Marks from the now super Dilithium rich Foundry mission, we will be adding Fleet Marks to other events, but not immediately."
Not immediately, could you narrow that down? With the launch of not-season 8, sooner, later?
"We are also entertaining suggestions to merge fleets or other ways that small Fleets can accelerate their progress."
If by that you mean that fleets will be merged because they are smaller then size X, please don't, worst...idea...ever. If, however, you mean are looking into ways to enable fleets to choose such a merger, that's a great idea. Would a merger also mean that earned exp towards the starbase get's caried over or just members?
"Just as max level players are now earning far more Dilithium than they ever have due to adjustments that we've made along the way, we will continue to adjust Fleet Marks in the same way."
Best news I heard all day.
"We want Fleet Progression to be a reward for Fleet Gameplay."
Would you consider doing STF's with a team consisting of fleetmembers as fleet gameplay? Perhaps by making a fleet private queu similar to the private queu's we have now that would only allow fleet members to be invited? I would absolutely *love* that, and I'm sure so would others.
Looking forward to see what you guys come up with, it's not to late to turn all this activity and attention on the forums in something beneficial for the entire community.
Apparently some forum posters have diplomatic immunity nowadays, where can I get mine? [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Star Trek: The Original Grind
Star Trek: The Next Grind
Star Trek: Deep Space Grind
Star Trek: Voyage to the Grind
So because we have a small group of friends (originally from CoH) we should not even attempt to advance our small fleet beyond where it is? Good to know. I don't want to waste my time in this game. Really the only reason I played this game was that my friends were here, and I could do something constructive on my maxed level characters. I really see no reason to log in now since my friends are not logging either because of this.
IMHO, the Time/Reward of the fleet tiers was already way out of whack, but I did it to help my small group. With this change, the time/reward is just plain ridiculous.
+1
I was pretty pissed off last night and spoke out of anger. After sleeping on it and reading what the OP stated, that soon-trademark **** is not cutting it for me any longer.
Probably doubt if mr. DStahl will notice my "voting with my wallet" so I am not going to use that here nor shall I wait for May to act swiftly and decisively.
Maybe the new metrics might take into account the cash spent on my 7 characters which will now boldly go to where the toons from the other games that I have burnt bridges with, go?
Syon: "Get us out of here, Number One! Maximum Warp!"
Wallet: " Yes, Ma'am!"
*whooooosh*
- KDF Ambassador Syon vocalizing her objection to the discussions of possible peace talks with the UFP due to recent Borg and Undine activities. Hegh'bat, Stardate 66588.8
See, this would be a great idea;
Instead of getting 100 Omega Marks during Bonus Hour, i'd be fine with 75 Omega Marks + 25 Fleet Marks. Or better still...
Normal Play:
75 Omega Marks + 25 Fleet Marks
Bonus Hour:
100 Omega Marks + 50 Fleet Marks
- big fleets are gonna get bigger, cause of the infux of small fleets getting disolved ( for those that actually stick around after all this mess )
- " we devs can do what we want. we wave our hands and "our" fleet is T5 with everything, no grinding at all "
players that log on are here for the enjoyment, not for the sweatshopping/slaving away at all of this.
wanna see a unhappy customer(s)? just watch the number of users that no longer log on after this failed attempt at saving all of this mess
here's to hoping STO goes the way of CoH's
The young generation has no clue what freedom is. Because they do not know the limit of it.
Disenchanted for all my Characters
He niether confirmed nor denied, so you're not out of hot water yet.
Star Trek: The Original Grind
Star Trek: The Next Grind
Star Trek: Deep Space Grind
Star Trek: Voyage to the Grind
First, some background. Our fleet has 7 people in it. Yup 7. And we like it that way. We knew that going into this that building up the starbase was going to be a long haul.
I always thought it a bit weird that the Foundry gave the marks when most of the missions are geared toward solo play. I'm totally guilty of getting the marks this way, but I was always under the impression that Fleet marks were supposed to reward group play.
I also firmly agree with the statement that smaller fleets hang on dilithium over fleet marks. That's been our experience as well. Part of me almost wishes it was an either/or fleet marks vs. dilithium for projects.
I get that the game is constantly being refined, but its a little frustrating to constantly have a moving target of finding content I enjoy with the rewards I'm looking for.
With those said, my problem with the fleet projects is a similar problem I've been having with the reputation system, and that is the fact that the projects are getting more expensive at the same time that we are required to do more of them.
As an example (this is really just an example). To go from Tier 0 to Tier 1 it costs us 10 widgets. Widgets cost 10 EC. Okay, we round up 100 EC, get the 10 widgets, and boom. Tier 1. To go from Tier 1 to Tier 2 it takes 15 widgets and the widgets now cost 15 EC, so suddenly it costs 225 EC. I get the increasing cost, but why not raise cost of items or number of projects but not both.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Want cheap commodities? Yeah you do. Commodity Cheat Sheet (includes food and data samples)
Want to make the game better? Might I suggest this form
Yes we are earning more dilithium, but what's the point unless the refining cap is increased to reflect this
But I suggested to Branflakes on Twitter yesterday to add FMs to any mission that is played as a team with a 2hr cooldown for repeating that mission (removing the "Spin the Wheel" loophole).
Calculate how much a fleet member could earn as a member of a fleet action and provide a FM reward at a similar scale to every mission that is played as a team.
All you will need to do is add an FM loot table that simply looks if the mission was completed as a team. If not, no FM. If yes, reward FM.
___________________________
In game: Commadore_Bob; Joined Jul 2009; That post count + 20,000
Will we be able to do Temporal Ambassador and get the fleet marks reward after the anniversary event ends?
And are there any plans on expanding the New Romulus Embassy Daily missions, with more missions and perhaps raised rewards (now 5 fleet marks)?
And oh 3rd, I still like to know what someone in previous thread asked olivia, if that really is her on her gorgeous avatar?
I predicted this under my old name on the old forum software. When the Foundry was first introduced to the public, I spelled out exactly how people would use it as an exploit tool. I went on to explain how the exploit missions would become the sole overriding reason people play Foundry missions and how they would become dependent on these missions. I further went on to mention how people would feel ENTITLED to those rewards and revolt like a bunch of addicts if attempts were made AFTER THE FACT to correct the exploits. Of course this was back in the day before "marks" and "dilthium." I was more concerned about people exploiting EC and Loot then.
Funny how my predictions were born out by actual reality. A bit of business-management and psychology goes a long way twords predicting how people will behave.
Dan, the #1 reason Mark production dropped off in favor of an endless variety of daily-clickers is this: You have yet to release any NEW MARK GRIND CONTENT since the initial introduction. Plain and simple: No one is playing Incursion, no one is playing Colony, no one plays the Starbase Defense missions.
I sit here on the KDF side for hours waiting for people to join up. Fleetmates are board out of their mind running the same handful of missions over and over again.
With the Foundry, one could sit down and come up with a short simple easy way to earn marks and Dil. It should have never been as easy as the Daily Clicker missions... but the possibility of making a short combat mission that paid well was there. That was the intent behind Battleship Royal Rumble.
As it stands now the situation is DIRE. NO ONE WANTS TO GRIND THE SAME STFS FOR OMEGA MARKS. WE ARE SICK OF THE SAME MISSIONS OVER AND OVER AGAIN FOR FLEET MARKS.
Cryptic, you want us to play the game YOU NEED TO PROVIDE US WITH A REASON TO DO SO.
I am calling upon you to release two new grind maps per week. You have the technology to do so. The Foundry allows someone at the office to sit down and bang out an ORIGINAL MAP with an original goal. Tweek it so it requires five people. Problem solved.
Or how about this. You have an engine that generates a RANDOM MISSION with a RANDOM GOAL with a RANDOM OPPONENT in the exploration clusters.
Dust that off, amp up the difficulty, tweek it to require five people, and add a small amount of Marks.
Now you have virtually unlimited grind content, that rewards players for teamwork with a very minimum effort on Cryptic's part.
So how about it. Meet our demand for new grind content, and people won't need a reason to exploit the Foundry.
See, now this is great news.... But the big question on everyones mind is: WHEN????
Changes should've been made to both ends ofthe spectrum at the same time. Not yank the reward from one place, and then arbitrarily re-add it elsewhere "sometime later on, in a few months".
Are we talking days, weeks, months???
Well I hate it...with a passion. But I understand the logic.
To be frank I can reach my dilithium cap without the Foundry mission. It helps but isn't mandatory. The Fleet Marks were actually a superior reward. So I look forward to what other sources of fleet marks you add in.
If the goal of the past patch was to get more people playing the foundry you succeeded, at least with me. Before the December patch, I played three five minute battle missions daily, usually a Nagus daily. If I was crunched for time then I would do the clickers. I know, I'm ashamed. But that December patch was brilliant and I started branching out. Doing a forty minute mission seemed like it was worth my time. And I played he whole spotlight section bar one or two and was waiting for you guys to highlight something else. I was hoping for the new tools to help sift through the list to the good stuff, I played the raptors trilogy (barring Raptor's Ascendance which is unplayable since you beam into a rock on the ground portion). I had just wrapped up the Olympus trilogy and was getting ready to work my way through the series, I was even gonna play that mission that delves into the Pakled backstory ninety minute juggernaught that it is (I just had to find ninety minutes). I loved some of those Foundry missions. Many of them in fact.
Now I have to grind fleet alerts.
(A note to Foundry authors, a suggestion. An episode of Star Trek is forty minutes. If a mission runs much longer than that, please drop a "to be continued...". Cryptic themselves did it when they broke up the STFs which as I understand it were two hours long and linked together at one point. It makes time management much easier.)
As I said above, I look forward to what you guys do to replace it.
But as a primarily and preferred solo player who likes contributing to his fleet, locking this (fleet marks) in to team events...is just aggravating. There should be a way to gain a steady amount of everything in this game without having to endure a queue. Especially for folks who don't have a great deal of time.
Loved your video. Was trying to say that in the last thread when it closed. The music was an exquisite choice.
That was based soly on STO.
Three years I wait for the KDF faction to be finished.
The game was starting to get better until PWE bought. Since then it gone down hill turn into a boring grind feast.
With time gate rewards. Instead of free flowing game I could play when I want as I wanted. So because that I been play other games more. GW2. World of Tanks and SWTOR.
This just stikes what I notice. Cryptic and PWE seem to be amture gaming company and master grind TRIBBLE producer.
Maybe other like this. I do not.
When Dilthium was add we told it was a time base Currency. based ON that I expect everything in the game to reward some amount of dilthium. Yet here we are a long time later. And still the way to earn dilthium are limit.
Just another lie by cryptic.
All these lock boxes floating around I feel like you guys are thinking yourselves into one. Nobody is complaining about DIL shortage anymore, it's abundant. You obviously know based on your 'metrics' that Fleet Marks were being achieved at a very low rate previous to the addition of Marks to the Foundry, then you obviously realize this will again be an issue now that it is removed. You make statements claiming we should 'look for' you to add more Marks to 'things' in 'the future' which sounds very similar to other statements we've heard on sensitive issues. We are still 'looking for' these to happen.
So, to sum up what I'm personally getting from this post;
-You know there is a shortage of Fleet Marks now, yet are going to do nothing about it in the foreseeable future. Months? Really?
-You know there is a shortage of DIL especially for smaller Fleets, yet you will not do anything to raise the 8k per day Cap which is the real issue.
This doesn't make any sense to me whatsoever. How does this improve anything?
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
The o3 - Killed you good
exactly. it doesn't make sense that ANYONE would take one way of acquiring something and not replace it with something more "fleety" or acceptable to cryptic
If you tell me who has the gun to your head I'll call in the SEAL team to come rescue you from them.
Here's another fact check. I made a starbase to tier 1 and halfway to tier 2 solo. It isn't hard but it is boring. And that was with the foundry rewards in place. Without them, it's not worth the effort, and many of us have run out of anything else to do in this game.
With all due respect Dan, I think you are all deeply out of touch with your playerbase. You quote metrics and numbers, but those don't gauge player happiness or satisfaction.
I have a challenge for you Dan. For the next week, using the fleet events, try to get 900 fleet marks. I did it last week. Just go for it. Walk in our shoes for the ten days and see what it's like. See what it makes you think of this game. See how much fun it really is. Then come back and lets have a conversation about fleet marks and internal metrics, ok?
I love Star Trek, Dan. I love Space Combat. I love this game you've created. For the last year this has been the only video game I've played, and I've financially supported. It's the only game I want to play. And yet as we speak I'm in the process of downloading The Old Republic and LOTR online. Because I'm tired of the grind, and increasing it for less rewards is not viable for me or my fleetmates. I'm logging into turn in my dilithium now, and that's it, and that's out of the optimistic hope that you're going to fix this problem soon.
The problems with all those numbers and metrics is they don't predict the future,Dan. If you looked at those metrics last week, when I was merrily grinding day and night, they wouldn't have told you that I'd be downloading your competitors product today and not playing yours, would they?
As a businessman, I would advise you in the strongest possible terms to listen to your customers first and foremost, and your numbers second. Things can change too quickly for your charts and graphs to reflect.
Thanks for your time.
Thank you for your quick response to this unpopular issue, I like the new rewards, but the major issue is that their is so many sinks for fleet marks and other currencies, no one is going to be thrilled when you take a source of income out of a whole reward table such as the Foundry.
This seems to be the case when so many currencies are added to the game, when the underlining issue is with so many currencies (when their should not be) causes controversy when you take a avenue of obtaining any one currency away that requires so much of it to make it useful.
Thank you.
So, to the points...(I will be a bit selective, for brevitys sake)
Ok, I do understand your logic.......FM would, in an ideal world, be achieved by fleet actions. A change to such a system is welcome. But it needs to be wholesale, not incremental.
You've taken away a reward system that small fleets utterly rely on, and not given anything back at all at this time of writing. The change will not affect big fleets that much, but it is literally devastating to small fleets.
I'm sorry....months? So, small fleets are to be left with no redress for months? Why not leave things as they are until you have the new systems ready?
You've made a serious error in judgement. The reason dilithium was the bottleneck was because we had the foundry mission for fleet marks. Check the data in the next few weeks you will see a different picture emerge. Small fleets dying for a lack of FM. Small fleets dying for a lack of FM that you say will not be rectified for months.
Sorry, but again, why the delay? small fleets as you've already indicated are handicapped. What you've done with this change is handicap them even more
Again, a laudable aim....but the timing is off. Taking away a system relied upon by small fleets with no immediate replacement makes many feel you don't want small fleets in the game.
But this change has capped progress for small fleets. If your aim is to make group effort the lynchpin (and I have zero problem with that as a fleet leader) then give us the reward we need. You've taken the reward we had away, promised us a replacement (with no definite timescale) in months. Essentially you've destroyed the incentive for small fleets to work together. Other sources of FM are simply too weak. There's no incentive anymore for small fleets to work together, merely disband and join bigger fleets.
I do appreciate the desire to make fleet bases the culmination of fleets working towards a common goal. I even appreciate the concept of making fleet marks available through fleet based actions only.
But taking away the previous system with no replacement is an appalingly short sighted decision.
There will be three big losers from all this: small fleets for all the reasons outlined above, foundry authors who lobbied for the exact changes you've implmented so hastily will also be held accountable by the player base and finally your own company.
Big fleets are all well and good, but small fleets are more numerous. A lot, and i mean a LOT of paying customers feel betrayed by this decision. Many will take their business elsewhere unless the replacement systems you are promising in months aren't moved up to a matter of days or, at most, a couple of weeks away.
As someone once said, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. This decision is one of those paving stones.
Well... they are called FLEET marks for a reason...
altough incresing their sources shouldn't be that difficult to do, and it should be done asap
In every place,
The deeds of men remain the same..."
Cryptic is swimming in shark infested waters, and you're bleeding profusely.
By this I mean lets say I do an STF (space or ground at either difficulty). Instead of just saying here is your Omega Marks why not let the player select their reward? With that being the case you can see which missions are popular which ones are not because they are all basically on the same level rewards wise. Then you can modify the non played or hardly ever played ones to make them more enjoyable or simply remove them and have bandwidth for other new ventures.
I know I don't want to leave my fleet I am in. I know we were looking at maybe as long as 6 months to get our Tier IV starbase if everyone was active (that was with officer reports). I don't want to join another fleet just to buy a Tier IV Assault Cruiser or Tier V Intrepid. To be honest though what you are doing is encouraging people to abandon the larger picture of many fleets to a few big ones so people can have the bigger ships. Or like I have seen in game already people selling fleet invites to get Tier V ships. This defeats the purpose you have for starbases in general.
I really think the best solution you can put forth is a choose your own rewards type scenario for most events. At least then you can see what the people like and don't like more than what they are forced to do for rewards. Then you can focus more on updates towards things that people enjoy to do to keep them invested in the STO experience rather than the STO Grind.
As for Fleet merging, I would propose an option to Request to Merge Fleet. Similar to Invite to Fleet. Leader of Fleet A sends a request to merge with Fleet B. He/she sends the request. Leader of Fleet B accepts request and Fleet C is formed. The leaders of Fleet A and B are now leaders of Fleet C. Any asset that any of Fleet A and B had that the other didn't, belongs to the new fleet. For example: Fleet A had A Room With a View, but Fleet B didn't. Fleet B had the Aquarium but Fleet A didn't. Now Fleet C has both. Any provisions/requisitions would sum up.
That is fine, how about making it just as challenging to the 100+ man fleets? As it is now, they exploit their fleet size to make the projects as trivial as a clicky mission. The amounts needed should be based on a PER MEMBER effort. I don't want it "easy" I want it comparable Stop the large fleet exploit because all it shows us down here is that you
1. Don't care about small fleets
2. Don't understand why some prefer small fleet
3. Don't care that large fleets are making a mockery of the "effort" that it takes to get things done
I can't speak to your data as I can't see it, what I can tell you is the reason that the demand for it, is much much larger than the intake. The fact I can average 4-5K of Dill per DAY from Doffs and still run a negative number should tell you something. The fact that I have over 30K Dil waiting to refine, should also tell you something. My fleet starves from dil, because YOU have put entirely to much demand for it into the game, I would suggest instead of adding intake, you cut down demand.
Having to pay 10 and 12K dill depending on the embassy project is too much for people to do every 20 hours. Unless they use the size exploit on the fleet
In short
The current fleet system encourages folks to grow simply to exploit their size on projects to make them trivial. Reward effort, not size.
We're starved because you have put too much demand on Dilithium. Slow down the demand and the situation will change.