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OMG nerf tacs
resoundingenvoy
Member Posts: 439
Do I have your attention? Good. I will do my best to be polite, helpful, respectful, and to the point. I ask you do the same. Here are the sum total of the patch notes at your please. Please, site a clear reference if I am wrong.
I have tried the diplomatic approach. I have tried the disarming approach. Frankly I'm far too (justifiably) annoyed to keep that up. I will not try the direct approach.
This thread is about nerfing tactical captains. I will not bog you down with the small things. There are far older and more little picture players out there who can do that better, and I invite them to do so. Instead I'm going to show you proof of a trend that has steadily been weakening non-tactical roles, and strengthening tactical roles.
The first: Every feedback I've seen that I can recall about nerfing a engineering or science ability hasn't been how it has been unbeatable. It's been about how it breaks the simple pattern of pointing at something and killing it. Instead of first asking for help, seeking a alternate solution, or even bothering to look at it from the other side? The first thing is to cry how <x> ability is clearly over powered and needs to be nerfed.
As the older players can tell you, that trend has not been kind to them.
If am I wrong even 1/10th of the time, please show me.
Edit: I forgot one other detail. The Atrox was on the receiving end of a few nerfs for doing exactly what the dreadnaught does now.
The second: Everything increase the DPS in some way shape or form of cruisers it brought up, so too is the point "space whales" don't need it because they have the "huge" tanking ability. Even if that was a argument that had a merit it's moot now.
Whatever they started out with, the tactical side of thing has been steadily increase their hull and shield abilities. With no corresponding decrease in damage abilities. Case and point, in case you haven't been playing sense the start of the game:
Atrox vs. Jem'Hdar Dreadnought
Not only does the dreadnought have a share of science abilities, The only stat a the dreadnought doesn't directly beat out is the 5% shield difference. Before you tell me how that makes up the difference in 5K, please do the math of how much resistance or base points would be needed to cover that. Before you tell me "Yea, but the Atrox has shiny abilties to do that ...", that is the science ship's domain. I'm going to ask you what a escort is doing there.
If that wasn't enough, salting the wound is tactical pilots turning their nose at it for not being as good as their old ship.
If am I wrong even 1/10th of the time, please show me.
The third: Here is one I'm bet most tactical captains didn't even notice. Go down fighting. Even notice how many have volunteered it as more then required?
Where in that long list of patch notes has it been nerfed to offset the ever increase hull values? It has gone from a last gasp panic button, to doing +50-100% damage with more hull left then the ships it was originally used on had at 90% hull!
If am I wrong even 1/10th of the time, please show me.
The fourth: Anytime issues DPS are brought up, again the argument of needing that 30-45K base hull. Yes, escorts have such maneuverability they don't actually have to face 50% or more of the same firepower. Before bridge officer or captain abilities. The ability to flank is regularly used in PvP, but conveniently ignored in all arguments. Thus the power creeps ever higher.
A pilot's inability to notice it or even use it doesn't negate it's there, but again, calls for increased DPS by engineers and science captain fly cruisers or carriers are called unfair.
If am I wrong even 1/10th of the time, please show me.
I have tried the diplomatic approach. I have tried the disarming approach. Frankly I'm far too (justifiably) annoyed to keep that up. I will not try the direct approach.
This thread is about nerfing tactical captains. I will not bog you down with the small things. There are far older and more little picture players out there who can do that better, and I invite them to do so. Instead I'm going to show you proof of a trend that has steadily been weakening non-tactical roles, and strengthening tactical roles.
The first: Every feedback I've seen that I can recall about nerfing a engineering or science ability hasn't been how it has been unbeatable. It's been about how it breaks the simple pattern of pointing at something and killing it. Instead of first asking for help, seeking a alternate solution, or even bothering to look at it from the other side? The first thing is to cry how <x> ability is clearly over powered and needs to be nerfed.
As the older players can tell you, that trend has not been kind to them.
If am I wrong even 1/10th of the time, please show me.
Edit: I forgot one other detail. The Atrox was on the receiving end of a few nerfs for doing exactly what the dreadnaught does now.
The second: Everything increase the DPS in some way shape or form of cruisers it brought up, so too is the point "space whales" don't need it because they have the "huge" tanking ability. Even if that was a argument that had a merit it's moot now.
Whatever they started out with, the tactical side of thing has been steadily increase their hull and shield abilities. With no corresponding decrease in damage abilities. Case and point, in case you haven't been playing sense the start of the game:
Atrox vs. Jem'Hdar Dreadnought
Not only does the dreadnought have a share of science abilities, The only stat a the dreadnought doesn't directly beat out is the 5% shield difference. Before you tell me how that makes up the difference in 5K, please do the math of how much resistance or base points would be needed to cover that. Before you tell me "Yea, but the Atrox has shiny abilties to do that ...", that is the science ship's domain. I'm going to ask you what a escort is doing there.
If that wasn't enough, salting the wound is tactical pilots turning their nose at it for not being as good as their old ship.
If am I wrong even 1/10th of the time, please show me.
The third: Here is one I'm bet most tactical captains didn't even notice. Go down fighting. Even notice how many have volunteered it as more then required?
Where in that long list of patch notes has it been nerfed to offset the ever increase hull values? It has gone from a last gasp panic button, to doing +50-100% damage with more hull left then the ships it was originally used on had at 90% hull!
If am I wrong even 1/10th of the time, please show me.
The fourth: Anytime issues DPS are brought up, again the argument of needing that 30-45K base hull. Yes, escorts have such maneuverability they don't actually have to face 50% or more of the same firepower. Before bridge officer or captain abilities. The ability to flank is regularly used in PvP, but conveniently ignored in all arguments. Thus the power creeps ever higher.
A pilot's inability to notice it or even use it doesn't negate it's there, but again, calls for increased DPS by engineers and science captain fly cruisers or carriers are called unfair.
If am I wrong even 1/10th of the time, please show me.
Post edited by resoundingenvoy on
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Comments
I think a major overhaul of Sci abilities is needed. Nearly every ability we have needs to be buffed. Also attack patterns should only buff weapon damage, not Sci or Eng abilities.
I don't understand why DPS-increasing skills like Starship Weapons Training and Starship Energy Weapons are tier 1 and 2 skills, but Tanking skills like Threat Control and Armor Reinforcements are tier 4 and 5 skills. Yet the inverse is true for Science - Subsystem Repair is a tier 2 skill, Subspace Decompiler is a tier 5 skill.
These abilities should be moved around. For instance Power Insulators should be moved up to tier 4, Subspace Decompiler should be moved to tier 3 or 4. Subsystem Repair should be moved to tier 5. Why? That just feels better to me. If you want to resist Science abilities you should have to pay for the skill ranks.
We need a science console for Subspace Decompiler. At present one doesn't exist.
I don't play an Engineering Captain so I couldn't tell you what they would need.
The main cause is simple, most of the players of these game are of low skill and have very little game system knowledge. Combine that with using the same mechanics in PvE and PvP gives you this result.
I'm of very low skill level. It makes me cry inside everytime I carry ESTF groups simply because I know how to build a ship and mash my spacebar keybind with everything tied to it. Ok my defensive abilities are attached to Shift+spacebar and I have to change throttle settings to yo-yo but still.
Tactical Fleet should be compared to Science Fleet as they're both the final Captain ability you receive, Photonic Fleet is (IIRC) the equivalent to Go Down Fighting and Mircale Worker, I don't think many will argue that PF is superior to GDF, especially combined with the other tactical captain abilities and/ or low hull.
Or do you mean Fleet Support (TF gives no NPC assistance), in which case Science and Engineer characters get the exact same ability with the exact same cool down.
Only the names of the classes,vessels or powers will change, the crying will still be the same when it comes down to it because while all that pissing and moaning may bring change, its nothing without balance.
R.I.P
This is true. Though I will always play Sci out of personal preference, I would like a balance to be struck between all 3 classes. It's true Tac's are the most effective, but we shouldn't call for the Nerf Bat. Key buffs to the other 2 classes, some skill changes, and we should be all set.
The only thing that I feel should be changed Tac side, is attack patterns buffing damage to science and engineering abilities. Attack patterns should really only buff weapons. If they did this, they could start buffing Sci abilities without people seeing attack pattern alpha gravity wells that hit for 1k+ damage per tick.
We have a winnah!
[Console - Tactical - Plasma Infuser Mk XII]x5 @ 30% plasma
[Console - Science - Emitter Array Mk XI [-Th] [Pla]]x2 @ 9% plamsa
[Console - Zero-Point Energy Conduit] & [Romulan Hyper-Plasma Torpedo Launcher] @ 7% plamsa passive
[Adapted M.A.C.O. Covariant Shield Array Mk XII] & [Adapted M.A.C.O. Combat Impulse Engines Mk XII] @ 25% kinetic passive
This gives me effectively 175% plasma damage and 25% Torp/mine damage. Normally That would be 7 tac console equivalency in damage.
I can't think of too many sci or eng abilities that can get that high and while yes this is only for plasma weapons for the most part it still blends very well.
I also picked up a few Romulan Boffs, That and with a couple of other console I am now doing 15% crit chance and 66.8% severity. That also meshed well.
When I look at the new fleet gear and consoles they really boost damage which is a tacs dream.
When I look at the other embassy console that boost shield and Hull it looks like it is on a 2.5% chance where the plasma infused is constant plasma damage.
Why were there no [Console - Tactical - Plasma Infuser Mk XI [+Th] [Sif]] or even a [Console - Engineering - Electroceramic Hull Plating Mk XI [-Th] [Em]] maybe a [Console - Engineering - Neutronium Alloy Mk XI [-th] [Gra]]? If this were to happen then they other 2 careers can stack bonuses like the tacs.
I know that deflectors are glorified science console but why not remake a previous set like the Breen set to have a passive set bonus to boost sci and engineering abilities further instead of transphasic damage (hmm. more damage, some theme). Even remake these set to be onpar with the maco sets. have you compared the [M.A.C.O. Resilient Shield Array Mk XII] and the [Dielectric Oscillation Resilient Shields Mk XI].
I know as a tac I do not want to give up the perks I just got but as you add more reputation systems and fleet holds you have an opportunity to focus on the other classes. I've heard that there might be a Deferi Rep system in the future to join in the ranks of the romulan and omega rep systems. There is a perfect place to revamp one of these sets like the Breen set which is already science oriented with the breen energy siphon for a set bonus to have instead of an ability with a 2 minute cool down to be another passive to boost science or engineering.
The fact is many people completely ignore the role each capt type plays. TACs are about DPS, SCI is crowd control, placate and healing, ENGY is threat control. If you're a SCI flying around trying to DPS, you're doing it wrong. If you're an ENGY flying around trying to DPS, you're doing it wrong. Engineers are there to take a higher portion of incoming damage and keep the heat of everyone else. If he kills something in the process, even better. Science is also about controlling incoming damage, and healing team mates in the process. If he kills something in the process, even better. There are exceptions to these general outlines, but they're true 90% of the time.
So do TACs need to be nerfed? No way. If the TACs on your team die, enemies survive longer and inflict more damage. Does that sound like a good idea? What this means is you need to play as a unit and work together. It's one of the things that make this game great.
This would be an argument if the scoring in the game also considered healing output and enemy neutralization. As it is if i can destroy my target in seconds I dont really need healing or cc, and in the few missions where those things come in habdy you arent scored for doing it.
I could go into a sb24 run and i gould grav well and tractor beam and toss sensor scan around, then i could toss he and tss at people maybe even afew teams, and you know what I would get for it? Nothing.
I could the go into the same sb24 with a defiant and just blast away at everything and ignore my other teammates, and you know what i would get for that? 1st place.
In stf's you barely have a need for healing or cc since I have see 2 (just 2) tac ships clear KASE with the optional. Hell people whine when they see more than 1 cruiser or science ship show up in their stf's.
DPS is king untill the roles are tailored to that fact 2 are always going to be somewhat lacking.
If you look toward somthing like battlefield you can clearly see there are roles and they have their uses, but they arent limited to only certain weapons or tactics. I can be a medic and carry my heavy MG, or I can be an assault class and bring a sniper rifle, and still perform my special role without rendering myself ineffective.
Not everything you see on the internet is true - Abraham Lincoln
Occidere populo et effercio confractus
Engy are not threat controled, that was a feature added in f2p conversion. Im an engineer, and i refuse to go down that route due to simple minded people who only understand trinity style games of healer/dps/tank.
Photonic fleet? Why bother using it, the ships spawned by it die instantly an overwhelming majority of the time. And they barely do any damage at all if they do manage to survive their full lifespans.
Fanfiction! ZOMG! Read it now!
kate-wintersbite.deviantart.com/art/0x01-Treachery-293641403
Yeah...sorry about that...I meant the Fleet Support ones hehe...ok i see what you meant...but i still think the 15 CD is ridiculous for such a ability that doesn't seem to work right.
Problem solved
But in all seriousness, sci career is very demanding. You can do very well as tac without spending skills in sci tree but you need skills in tac tree if you are playing sci.
Ain't Nobody Got Time for That
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Tac has some bugs, most of it doing with it buffing science type damages, eng is under performing though it has a limited purpose, science is not focused but does have some pretty awesome abilities.
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Nothing to do anymore.
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My proposals to fix each ship type would be (and some of these ideas are borrowed/modified from other threads):
I think the above changes would really add variety to how combat plays out, and give ships more well-defined roles.
Game Balance - Ship Size and Wingmates
to me this would sound like a step towards a good solution without the need of "equaling" everything till all is just one "tac-sci-eng"-career
Im hoping the hints at revamp of the skills tree will help balance he classes. Though Tacs will always appear to have it easy as in any game being the blaster, fighter, Tac class is the simpliest class to play normally.
R.I.P
I have maxed particle generator skill on my sci and use 2 blue mk XI particle gen consoles on the ship for my Sci Sci
I have ZERO points in particle generator skill and ZERO consoles for particle gen on my Tac-Tac.
My Tac's EWP3 does far more damage than my Sci Sci's GW3....
Science captains are just not fun to play. It takes 2x+ longer to accomplish the same feats my tac does. It also feels incredibly gimpy and weak by comparison. I feel like dead weight in stfs while I wait for my weak GW3 to come off cool down and it's usually made useless because tacs can just torp spread III.. As a result, I only doff and dil farm on my Fed char anymore.
It's not just me or the posters on this forum. If I look at either roster for my FED or KDF fleets, the vast majority are tac captains. The rest are alts people made for captain training.
Why crowd control if the tacs just kill everything in seconds anyway? Why heal if no one gets hurt because the enemies are all dead already? Why tank when enemies don't get but a few seconds to cause damage until a tac pops them? DPS is king in STO and it is rewarded. Tanking, healing, CCing are not. Roles just don't work in this game. DPS is always going to work all the time where as tanking and healing are situational and most the time un-needed.
If you're talking about pvp, the problem is that tacs have several abilities increasing their dps and giving them immunities and resists at the same time. My KDF main is a tac and i love him but i also know that the attack pattern omega is giving way too much perks for what it is. And of course any tac captain will run APO half of the time, so, basically, we fly in god mode half of the times.
God, lvl 60 CW. 17k.
Science abilities aren't strong enough to force them to turn aside in order to avoid death. 2.5% isn't enough for subsystem targeting. not with a 2 minute cooldown.
The only way a science officer can beat a tac scort is to dps him, outside of team play anyway. A buff to subsystem targeting would do a great deal to narrow this gap.
1- Damage boost abilities are global.
Yes, that means a tac captain in a science ship will do more damage with science abilities than a full fledged sci capt in a sci ship. Hit atk Alpha, Go down Fighting and gravity wells/photonic shockwave/repulsor beams/tractor beams/ ANYTHING sci based that does damage... gets a ~300% damage boost. A sci captain cannot even creep close to that damage output with sci capt abilities alone. All other abilities available to science boffs are broken and the stats they are associated with dont provide any noticeable boost to the ability (aside from healing..im talking offensive/crowd control abilities).
The same damage bonus applies to engineer damage abilities. Warp Plasma, Directed Energy Modulation... you name it.
Its ABSURD that a Tactical captain performs better in sci ships than a sci captain and than an engineer in a cruiser.
2- Escorts have access to all the defensive and navigation engineer and science bonuses via their tactical boff abilities.
Case in point: Attack Pattern Omega.
Defense boost = None. Unique.
Speed Boost = Emg Pwr to Engine
Immunity to holds = Polarize Hull
Damage boost = Emg Pwr to Weapons
Turn rate boost = Aux2Dampeners
HOLY TRIBBLE. With this one ability the escort ship gets the EQUIVALENT of having Lt Cmdr engineer and Science station abilities.
Atk Omega is one of the primary reasons escorts, and particularly tac captains in escorts, are so ridiculously overpowered.
3- Stat bonuses are heavily biased to benefit tactical captains. This is the result of BAD design from the devs when they went F2P. The space revamp bunched all energy weapon types, all projectile weapon types, all the weapon-related damage boosting stats ...into an extremely simplistic 'this works for all' skill box. This resulted in all tac captains not needing to sacrifice skill points to gain max performance with which to stack upon their tac-capt dmg boosting abilities and their escort-based (lt cmdr tac+) station abilities.
Engineer and Science on the other hand, their skill boxes remained largely the same. Science in particular lost several stat-types and got them bunched into other stats... but by doing so the devs broke the stats and they have not provided any noticeable boost ever since.
Case in point: Gravity Well.
Pre-F2P a grav well 3 fired by someone with ZERO particle/graviton skills would be what we have now @9pnts in both. Assuming both being fired @ max aux. A grav well 3 with 9pnts in grav/particle + max aux on the other hand, was so effective that ships would be sucked into the center of the anomaly and be held there the entire duration UNLESS they used polarize hull or evasive maneuvers. Atk Omega did not use to break you free from holds, it used to prevent holds (aka you had to had omega active before a hold hit you or it would not protect you).
Today, the particle skill hardly gives you any damage bonus and graviton skill barely affects the super weak strength of the tractor effect.
We know for a FACT that it is the bonus to these stats that is intentionally set so low that they are useless. How do we know? In season 3 or 4 (I forget which) there was a patch that boosted these stats...and for a few days grav wells had returned to pre-f2p levels.
Case in point: Sensor abilities.
Jam and Scramble Sensors used to have long durations and used to take a LOT of damage before the effect broke. A sci ship COULD crowd control with them back in pre-f2p. Now however the effect is so weak a single hit by a mk1 white turret will break a jam sensor 3 fired by a sci ship @ max aux +9pnts in countermeasures.
Case in point: Tachyon Beam.
Pre-F2P this ability was incredibly useful. It drained a darn good amount of shields and most importantly it used to prevent shield balancing while active (10 seconds). It was a true support ability and was an important asset for any team to have.
Today, because the stat associated with it is so weak, tachyon beam 3 is a wasted slot. It doesnt even prevent shield balancing (no idea why this was removed in space revamp!).
Case in point: Power Drains
Same old story. Before a single siphon 3 could make a cruiser captain sweat... now its another wasted slot because flow capacitors bonus is very low. Plus the added power drain resists (which were never needed to begin with!).
So, overall, tac abilities received an impressive boost while sci and engineer abilities got tossed and flushed down the toilet.
Before F2P the game was balanced in the sense that escorts were NOT the highest damage dealers (cruisers were) but they were the only ships with the speed and turn rate to focus on one shield facing and pummel it down. Cruisers were the most difficult ships to shoot down since they were monster tanks AND they had the highest firepower..but their turn rate and speed were TRIBBLE. Sci ships were the best shield tanks but had very weak hulls so they could only buffer tank...and while they had the lowest dps of all ships, they did their fighting with science abilities... a disable, tractor, energy drain, grav well, sensor jam... all these were used to turn powerful enemies into weak enemies so that their low dps could take them down.
Cruisers used to fear sci ships, sci ships used to fear escorts, escorts used to be VERY afraid of both cruisers and sci ships when under 5km range and REALLY flew to avoid cruiser broadsides and sci ship's forward aspect (most sci abilities fire forward)... but even though they were afraid of them the escort could shoot them both down quickly IF he attacked the same shield and IF he used his weapons and abilities right.
That was the balance. It is gone now. Replaced by sheer idiotic raw DPS and ungodly tanking ability given to escort ships... its point/click/boom gameplay...and the 'brainplay' that used to be sci and engineer has been twisted into 'ooh look i can heal' spamming.
How to FIX the game and return it to balance:
1- Remove ALL speed/turn/rate/damage/healing bonuses granted by any skill box. Let ship equipment determine this.
* the effect this will have is that it will make all ships return to pre-f2p tactical combat rather than stupid arcade fighting. By removing the rank-based boosts to all these, ship combat once again becomes a matter of who uses and flies their ships better not just who can stack damage abilities or healing abilities and spam them regardless of where their ship is pointing or flying.
2- Split Atk Omega into Attack and Evasive Pattern.
Atk Omega:
Small Damage resist debuff
Medium Damage boost
Medium Turn rate boost
Large Accuracy buff
Evasive Gamma (?)
Immunity to holds
Large Speed Boost
Medium Defense boost
Medium turn rate boost.
3- Increase stat effect of all sci and engineer skill boxes by a significant amount.
4- Remove tactical captain boost abilities from affecting non-weapon based damage.
I know the tac boosts do this because the damage done by non-weapons is always classed as kinetic... so how about simply re-assigning that non-weapon damage to a new damage type: Exotic damage. Just like pre-f2p.
The only way to resist exotic damage should be through armor, consoles and boff ability resistance. Defense rating should not be factored into damage reduction equations since sci abilities are not 'aimed' like weapons are.
1. The cycle and the power drain of DHC in rapid fire is less than the beams with beam fire at will. A 1 sec increase in their cycle and an increase in drain, or a decrease in drain from beams should be implemented.
2. Reverse shield polarity should be moved to be Lt. Com. eng boff with a cooldown 75- 90 sec instead of 120 sec. The same with Directed energy modulation with a 60-75 sec cooldown. A small increase in stats should also happen for these 2 abilities.
3. Gravity Well should have bigger pull numbers. For sci abilities it is easy, restore them to values before of their nerf. Many of them had huge nerfs. Increase effectiveness/range of Charge particle burst and photonic shockwave. Some cooldowns should be made to 45 sec for sci abilities.
I know that escort captains will object and say that these changes will make cruisers and science ships over powered. I would respond that escorts are fast in order to hit and run. Otherwise nerf their speed and turn numbers and name them Dreadnoughts.
By the way, tell me the last time that you saw a science ship take an escort down. Because we all know that science ships > escorts, cruisers > science ships, escorts > cruisers. At least that was the original idea of the game at the start.
KDF Eng: Boreas I.K.S. Demonon Nemesis {Fleet: HoS}
Rom Sci: Crius I.R.W. Noctem Aeternus {Fleet: LoS}
Fed Tac: Kronos U.S.S. Xibalba, I.S.S. Theogonia{Fleet: HSF}
You literally want to nerf the tac don't ya boys and girls!
Thing is, a tac in a cruiser WILL do more damage, most of the time. However, an engineer will surive better, and could do a high amount of damage if you set your skills right.
A tac in a science vessel, (I preshent you, the ballishtic misshile Submarine, Red October), can do more damage, because it will buff up it's weapons damage. But a science will perform the crowd controls, and science evil a LOT better.
What some people are misunderstanding here, (and "what we have here, is a problem to communicate") is that ever class has a set of roles. Tac, primarily damage. Engineer, primarily tanking and healing support. Science Enemy Neutralisation and Crowd control.
If you that character creator thingy, remember, when you pick your class? You'll see my point.
We should make every class better at it's role, so perhaps buffing some of the less used science skills, such as mask energy signature, because come on, who uses that?